ok if i were to be a monstrous humanoid race and say i was going to be a feral gargun. and i wanted to be a lvl 1 fighter (level 1 character overall) and it says that they already start with two levels of MH does that mean that i have to start at level 3 to take 1 lvl of fighter?
hope my Question was clear.
Yes. If you have two monster levels automatically, they're treated just like normal class levels. At your level 1 of fighter, you're (theoretically) on par with a level 3 normal, level-less race fighter. It's better than a level adjustment, though, because you still get HP, BAB etc increases.
I believe Savage Species had some system where you could make the monsters on-par with regular races, but otherwise, yes, that's how it works. If the creature has a LA, then the LA is added after the monster HD, not instead of.
I don't know if I'd say that monster HD are "better" then an equivalent LA, though. LA's usually come from special qualities and abilities, such as Natural Armor, or Extraordinary Abilities. If the game is as balanced as it claims (I withhold judgment on that; I don't feel I know enough to say, one way or another), then it should just be a matter of what you're trying to do.
Quote from: Sdragon1984I believe Savage Species had some system where you could make the monsters on-par with regular races, but otherwise, yes, that's how it works. If the creature has a LA, then the LA is added after the monster HD, not instead of.
I don't know if I'd say that monster HD are "better" then an equivalent LA, though. LA's usually come from special qualities and abilities, such as Natural Armor, or Extraordinary Abilities. If the game is as balanced as it claims (I withhold judgment on that; I don't feel I know enough to say, one way or another), then it should just be a matter of what you're trying to do.
Better for the player. Think about it: +3 LA or +3 levels? With LA, you gain nothing. With classes, you gain BAB, HP, and save progression (bad though they may be).
However, yes. If there's also an LA adjustment on the feral template (and whatever creature it is you're using) you have to add that too.
thanks guys this helps alot. thread can go bye bye now if someone wants it to
If you don't gain anything, then why would the creature even have a LA? Like I said, usually you gain special racial stuff (Natural Armor, breath attacks, etc.) with LAs, and you gain more class-like stuff (HP, BAB, etc.) with Monster HD.
wait, one more question, would my character level be level 3? i know i would have 1 class level of fighter but does the MH count as class levels?
Your character level is equal to your Hit Dice (from monster levels and class levels). Your Effective Character Level (ECL) also includes your any Level Adjustment.
All this will be moot when 4e comes out, since HD and Level are divorced, and LA and ECL are going away.
And I think what SD was saying about LA not necessarily being worse, is that you get more powerful abilities out of it, because they know you're not getting HD and the accompanying abilities.
Also, most things with racial HD have a LA. A bugbear comes out the door as basically level 4. But most players would take a 4th level PC race over the non-classed bugbear that's supposed to be equal.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying.
Ahh, I see what you mean now. What I was saying was I'd rather have a race that has monster class levels AND the abilities, rather than the LA - that's how I used to build my subraces. You treat the abilities the creature gets as class features, y'see - monster class levels tend to be pretty cruddy compared to PC ones.
I assume you meant monster levels suck compared to PC class levels? If so, I whole-heartedly agree. What you get from a monster HD or a LA is rarely worth giving up class levels, especially if you play a caster or something similar.
Quote from: PhoenixI assume you meant monster levels suck compared to PC class levels? If so, I whole-heartedly agree. What you get from a monster HD or a LA is rarely worth giving up class levels, especially if you play a caster or something similar.
Yes. But in comparison to a +3 LA creature, a +3 class levels creature with identical stats has a distinct advantage in HP, saves, and HD which puts them on par with (at least) characters weak in those areas of their ECL.
Quote from: WensleydaleQuote from: PhoenixI assume you meant monster levels suck compared to PC class levels? If so, I whole-heartedly agree. What you get from a monster HD or a LA is rarely worth giving up class levels, especially if you play a caster or something similar.
Yes. But in comparison to a +3 LA creature, a +3 class levels creature with identical stats has a distinct advantage in HP, saves, and HD which puts them on par with (at least) characters weak in those areas of their ECL.
Right, but a character with a +5 Natural Armor has a distinct advantage over a character of the same level with 5 more HP. Personally, I'd prefer not getting hit over getting hit and having some extra life.