I found a good thread of ideas on RPG.net and I thought I'd post a link in case there was anyone around here who hasn't seen it:
Justify Breaking Genre Conventions (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=360214)
Also I thought it might be a good idea to continue the thread here.
Convention: Demons are evil.
Breaking It: Demons just work for the Celestial Bureaucracy punishing the wicked and are really no threat to good people.
Justification: I think that's sort of how Chinese mythology handles it.
It seems to be the common convention in many Asian mythologies. The Dharmic hell, Naraka, is really more like purgatory. Except the part about demons never hurting good people, which could still happen.
On a side note, in older Judaism it's kind of similar, too. The satans were not apostate; they worked for God to test the faith of humans.
Where is that in Judaism? The Devils were from the fall of Angels, not working with God.
Convention: The Elven language is beautiful and fluid, and Dwarven is gutteral and short.
Breaking it: Dwarven is renowned for its beauty, and Elven sounds like someone clearing their throat.
Justification: To Dwarves, deep underground, water is the most valuable resource. Their language would emulate the smooth sounds of flowing water, as a reminder of what to look for. Elves, in the middle of nature, would emulate the sounds of the forest animals, which are often harsh and abrupt.
Quote from: Phoenix KiteExcept the part about demons never hurting good people, which could still happen.
I wasn't sure. I think I actually did read this. Possibly they're still not very nice, it's just that they
also have a job doing it.
Quote from: Stargate525Where is that in Judaism? The Devils were from the fall of Angels, not working with God.
That's Christianity (and possibly more modern Judaism, I cannot comment on that). In traditional Judaism, there were no fallen angels, per se. There were, however, the nephilim.
Quote from: Dictionary of AngelsSatan--the Hebrew meaning of the word is "adversary." In Numbers 22:22 the angel of the Lord stands against Balaam "for an adversary" (satan). In other Old Testament books (Job, I Chronicles, Pslams, Zechariah) the term likewise designates an office; the angel investing that office is not apostate or fallen.
In Christian theology (especially developed by Milton more than the Bible), 1/3 of all angels rebelled against God and were cast into Hell for it.
Convention: Orcs, Bugbears and humanoids are intrinsically evil and stupid. They band together in race-sensitive groups.
Breaking it: Some of them actually wnat to be in a cultured, civilized world, and some are very valuable memebers. Bugbears are actually the smartest humanoid race on the average.
Justification: civilizations evolve, and after years of conflict, trading develops between the civilized worls and the humanoid tribes. The grudging admiration the civilized, aculturated world for the cleverness of the Bugbears and the hardworking orcash eventually have enough cross-pollinization that some orcs and other humanoids start prefering to live in the integrated world.
Quote from: Stargate525Convention: The Elven language is beautiful and fluid, and Dwarven is gutteral and short.
Breaking it: Dwarven is renowned for its beauty, and Elven sounds like someone clearing their throat.
Justification: To Dwarves, deep underground, water is the most valuable resource. Their language would emulate the smooth sounds of flowing water, as a reminder of what to look for. Elves, in the middle of nature, would emulate the sounds of the forest animals, which are often harsh and abrupt.
Actually, if you think about it. It would make sense for the dwarves to have short, gutteral language. They live in mostly-stone environments, thus if they had a smooth language it would be impossible to hear anybody because of the reverberations.
not really. Guttural sounds and clipped languages will, if anything, be harder to understand, as you'll be getting hard cutoffs at different times from the echoes.
And that's also assuming that all stone has incredible amounts of echo. only hard stone will do that, and only in large areas or long distances.
Quote from: LordVreegConvention: Orcs, Bugbears and humanoids are intrinsically evil and stupid. They band together in race-sensitive groups.
Breaking it: Some of them actually wnat to be in a cultured, civilized world, and some are very valuable memebers. Bugbears are actually the smartest humanoid race on the average.
Justification: civilizations evolve, and after years of conflict, trading develops between the civilized worls and the humanoid tribes. The grudging admiration the civilized, aculturated world for the cleverness of the Bugbears and the hardworking orcash eventually have enough cross-pollinization that some orcs and other humanoids start prefering to live in the integrated world.
The whole "race = culture" is, In My Maybe-Not-Too-Humble-Sounding-But-Certainly-Nothing-To-Get-Worked-Up-Over Opinion, used in completely the wrong way. It's okay if one needs a regional shorthand in a place where populations spend little time mixing, but too often (as I see it) it's applied universally. A single race should not always act the same way in every environment.
Convention: Elves are both the frailest and the longest lived race.
Breaking It: Elves are frail but also relatively short lived. Gnomes have the longest life.
Justification: This one's fairly obvious. Based on their physiques, elves should be among the shortest lived races. They eat the least and, typically, with little meat, and they sleep very little (rather, they meditate). Gnomes, on the other hand, are small, have an enhanced constitution, and seem to live rich lives.
As a vegetarian, I have this to say about your meat = lifespan thing... wtf?
Proteins are arequired by the human phisique, and unless you know about nutrients and diet, it's hard to get protein from plant matter.
Quote from: KindlingAs a vegetarian, I have this to say about your meat = lifespan thing... wtf?
Isn't there a vitamin that vegetarians can only get through supplements? Besides, somehow, I don't think elves grow very many dairy cows or soy plants, so I think they're probably a little low on protein, too.
That said, I can see how physiological differences could make up for that. We don't know much about the elven digestive system, so for all we know, they might be designed to be herbivores.
with 4 stomachs. Bovine fey...
That's it. From now on all elves must wear cow bells.
Convention: Elves are aesthetes, more discerning as to what is more visually appealing. The eat foods with caried tastes and have sensitive palettes.
Breaking it: Elves are herbivors with 4 stomachs. The eat grass and wear cowbells.
I think I'd have to pay a PC to be an Elf after this.
Convention: Elves are enlightened beings, living in harmony with nature.
Breaking it: Elves are crude barbaric animists, living in harmony with nature because they don't know any better.
Justification: Now elves can fulfill both the barbarian druid role and the I-hate-elves niche.
Yes, I think I will require my elven players to wear cowbells now. This is definitely a must.
I like the thread, and the ideas that have come about from it are great, but I just have to throw in the proverbial monkey wrench: Why does one need to "justify" themselves for breaking genre conventions?
Firstly, keep in mind that justification falls under ethics. When you justify something, it means that you are taking an action that would otherwise be considered unethical, or "wrong," and stating, in this specific instance, why it is now ethical, or "right."
Many "genre conventions" are nothing more than clichés. One of the "rules" of writing is to avoid using clichés. So why then, in gaming, would one have to justify not going by a cliché? Ordinarily using a cliché is wrong, but for some reason, in RPGs, using the cliché, according to the original thread, is the right thing to do. The whole arse-backwards-ness of the original idea just bothers me a little. Not that it didn't produce good things as a result, it's just seems to be going at it the wrong way.
Just something to ponder...
Quote from: limetomI like the thread, and the ideas that have come about from it are great, but I just have to throw in the proverbial monkey wrench: Why does one need to "justify" themselves for breaking genre conventions?
Firstly, keep in mind that justification falls under ethics. When you justify something, it means that you are taking an action that would otherwise be considered unethical, or "wrong," and stating, in this specific instance, why it is now ethical, or "right."
Many "genre conventions" are nothing more than clichés. One of the "rules" of writing is to avoid using clichés. So why then, in gaming, would one have to justify not going by a cliché? Ordinarily using a cliché is wrong, but for some reason, in RPGs, using the cliché, according to the original thread, is the right thing to do. The whole arse-backwards-ness of the original idea just bothers me a little. Not that it didn't produce good things as a result, it's just seems to be going at it the wrong way.
Just something to ponder...
I think a better way to phrase this might be, "what rationale do you use to support your deviation from the cliché?"
Sure, avoiding clichés is good writing, but that doesn't mean you can all of a sudden say that dwarves climb trees without giving any explanation for it (note: dwarves in that world are evolutionarily closer to apes then, say, elves or humans are).
Isn't random, unexplained phenomena just as bad for writing-- specifically, world building-- as sticking to clichés?
Internal consistency is the key. Cross breeds don't work in every system, but tons of worlds have half elves. I use Hobyt/Dwarves and Hobyt/gnomes, because Hobyts are incredibly fertile and genetically adaptable.
AS long as there are good reasons...
Quote from: Stargate525Proteins are arequired by the human phisique, and unless you know about nutrients and diet, it's hard to get protein from plant matter.
From plant matter, maybe, but there's still eggs and dairy. Actually, even from plant matter there are certain things with naturally high concentrations of protein; beans for example.
And these are elves, fonts of ancient eldritch wisdom. You think the subjects of nutrition and diet are gonna be unknown to them? I, for one, do not :P
Not to mention that while proteins are required by the HUMAN physique, they might not be by an ELVEN physique.
Convention: Dwarves are a gruff, dirty, insular race that prefer the company of coin, God and an axe to anything else. They have Scottish accents and arrange their, supposedly single-gendered society, into great clans that live in deep mines.
Breaking It: Dwarves are happy, extroverted surface folk who weave arcane wonders while on ships that traverse the world. They meet each day as if it were a new life, exploring it just as hard as they explore themselves and the new cultures they encounter on their voyages. Dwarves do not congregate in large communities because they are too consumed with the joys of exploration to stay in any one place for too long. Having said that, Dwarves do enjoy sensuality with both the same and opposite gender and often make port to explore the pleasures of the flesh and mind, for with out pleasures a Dwarf, as everyone knows, would be a very sad creature.
Justification: Dwarves are too bent up in Tolkien conventions for their own good. Dwarves need to a new angle that helps them evolve past Gimli and the Ring.
I never did understand where the whole Dwarven = Scottish thing came from... I've always imagined them sounding more... I dunno, eastern european, maybe?
I don't know how they came about the Scottish accents. I assume it was an association with the two using the word 'Clan.'
Personally, I always assumed they had more of a Greek accent because that's who the original Norse Dwarves were believed to be based off of, i.e. short swarthy folk who are obsessed with metal. :)
Quote from: KindlingI never did understand where the whole Dwarven = Scottish thing came from... I've always imagined them sounding more... I dunno, eastern european, maybe?
I think it's the dourness. Dourness + stubbornness + ale = Scot (in that sort of older English stereotype kinda way)
To my knowledge the more "stereotypical" Scots drink is whiskey, not ale. And if Dwarves were supposed to be Greeks, then maybe I'm not so far off with my eastern European thoughts :P
Somehow, I can't really imagine the realm of forms coming from a dwarf...
I can see Dwarves possessing a great history of Philosophical thought. I mean they live in a dank cave, some unique ideas have to be born from just that simple fact!
Um, the cave analogy was about people in a cave not being able to understand the real world, as in people that don't do philosophy.
So the cave-dwellers have no philosophy.
But since our non-sterotypical dwarves don't live in caves, no problem right.
I mean, everyone knows Hercules, Jason, and Perseus were all dwarves.
Convention: Undead are life-hating engines of destruction.
Breaking it: Undead are the calmest beings in existence. They have to really try to hate anyone or anything enough to want to destroy them.
Inspiration: Terry Pratchett proposed that since dead people don't have the usual chemical triggers for emotion that they don't experience the same intense feelings as live people.
Convention (D&D only): Undead are powered by negative energy.
Breaking it: Undead are powered by positive energy.
Reasoning: Negative energy is the force of destruction. It can't give "life" to anything. Positive energy is already used to reverse the process of dying (i.e. wounds), so it's a natural for making things get back up.
I see dwarves in a more Eastern light. A social outlook and philosophy based on wisdom for what destroys the very concept of craft but impatience? A martial culture balanced with artisanship... Sounding a bit Samurai-ish. Monks and Priests fit right in. Heck, even a Wu-Jen type works. Why not ninja dwarves?
Terry Pratchet's 'Lords and Ladies' turned beautiful, charming, wonderful elves into sadistic, lying sociopaths. Loved the take on it as people of the world remembered the beauty of them and beauty = good... right?