Topic for the day...
How does the growth of a PC affect their enviroment? How do you let them affect this enviroment? How much of this afect comes from personal power, and how much from wealth? How powerful do they become vs the common person? How common are exceptional folk in your setting, and how does that change the dynamic?
How does notoriety play a part? How easy is fame to come by?
This discussion broke out online last night with a few of my players. It started with 2 of them collaborating on a song They are trying to make popular in the bardic circles, a song that suggests the Winfire Trading Guild has been eeding the fires of warfare in the area and sitting back to reap the benefits. I slightly increase the political/popular affect of song if the PC's write the whole thing. (This one has sone zingers...). The discussion rolled over to the popularity and social affect of the bardic halls/taverns and how much affect the PC's had on the sentiment of Igbar. I figured a few more viewpoints as to the place PC's create in the world's of my fellow World Builders would be useful.
[note=the refrain]
A coin is a coin,
Noble goodwife through and through,
though Five for them and One for you.
Do they mix the pot,
or use our sweat to salt the stew,
shiny coins covered in blood-red hue.
[/note]
Hmm. Well, PC activists in Wonders would actually find it relatively easy to change the world - founding a town, joining a revolutionary movement and becoming a partisan etc are all quite viable options. It's open to a lot of political intrigue and violence, and a PC might be the one to topple the government. Who knows?
That's the idea...I'm looking for specifics, in terms of your setting.
(though I love your term, 'activists')
How important is power or character level to founding a town? How easy is fame or notoriety to come by? If the PC's can topple a government, what type of people run this government, and what is the difference between them and the PCs?
Depends on the size of the nation/state/city/town/etc.
The smaller it is, the greater impact the PCs will have as they gain levels and do missions for increasingly more important people. The larger it is, the less impact and notoriety they will have.
E.g. If the party saves a small town from a horde of rampaging Orcs, then that village will be VERY grateful and thus more amiable to the PCs than if the PCs helped save a large city from a similar (though larger) force, for they would be just a small handful of the total forces marshaled for the defense.
Following this logic, my PCs tend to gain a lot of influence in smaller towns much more quickly than larger ones. These smaller towns then, through connections, help catapult the PCs onto increasingly larger 'circles of influence' until they have the ear of the highest lord in the land (typically a King or Emperor).
I allow my PCs to have a fair degree of power and influence but never more than I think they have earned. Just because they saved the town of Korgaton from a small band of merry bandit orcs does not mean the Duke of Losra will pay them any more heed than he would any other group of armed vagrants in his land.
Now your group is trying, through merry song, to influence the populous of Igbar. Well I think the first question you have to ask yourself is how many people in Igbar are stupid-enough (to be willingly be influenced) and/or affable to the cause to take the song and repeat it many times through out the land? Are the people ready to take arms and/or action against the Winfire Trading Guild? If so, I'd say your player's song, if catchy and nice, should have a great influence over the populous, most especially with the bardic types (because its a free song).
Now if the populous of Igbar is not ready to make war upon and/or action against the Winfire Trading Guild, then I'd say your player's song may unduly influence the people to look negatively upon the group; maybe even enough to run them out of town.
Also, remember that the Winfire Trading Guild is a living organization. They probably won't take kindly to the new song, so allow the group to take a measured response; perhaps a song of their own that rivals the PC's in terms of catchy-ness, whose lyrics sing the tale of how good the Winfire Trading Guild is and how bad/evil/un-Igbar-ian the blockheaded adventurers are.
Quote from: LordVreegThat's the idea...I'm looking for specifics, in terms of your setting.
(though I love your term, 'activists')
How important is power or character level to founding a town? How easy is fame or notoriety to come by? If the PC's can topple a government, what type of people run this government, and what is the difference between them and the PCs?
Character level? Not at all. Wonders was actually designed more with fiction in mind, so character level isn't really all that important at all. Founding a town is really quite simple provided you can persuade others, so I suppose if you were playing a levelled game, charisma would be important. But, yes.
As for toppling the government, well. The main setting of Wonders, which is essentially the Duer Kingdoms and particularly T'Zakat'az Durin and the Tandhus Archipelago, is ruled by a King. However, the King is... well. It was essentially a scapegoat position created by outside influences for a single negotiator, and as those forces no longer exists, has very little power on its own. The REAL powers are the seven house leaders, who have basic autonomy in their own areas. If you can garner enough support - or just support a political movement that has more support - you could probably play the more belligerent Houses off against each other and spark off a violent civil war that would result in the deaths of thousands of non-Duer immigrants (which is the aim of many, many Duer) and much rearrangement of political boundaries. The King might also be removed.
In my campaign, the players in the past have done everything from forming a leftist radical group to topple (who they felt) was a corrupt Duke, to merging old houses together into a singular royal family, to ousting the Archbishop as a homosexual, to deifying through lies and glamour a political figure, to besieging a city and claiming it for their own, to infiltrating and subsequentially killing an important religion figurehead and replacing him with a faceman, to controlling exports by seizing customs fortifications coming into and out of the kingdom, to forging new vistas into unknown territory that's unmapped (and founding several communities within) and even breaking alliances between merchant coasters in two separate countries, therefore starving out an entire subsection of the country that faced a harsh winter and thus gutted the breadbasket of the kingdom. They've made a king from a bastard son, a pauper from a criminal overlord, an untouchable political figure into a dead one, they've written plays in the blood of their enemies, and made ethnic groups of roundly-hated people into a life of affluence and influence.
So, yeah...my players have a lot of geopolitical and intra/extrapersonal influence on the world they live within. But in my world, the villains are just the heroes on the other side of the story. There are no absolutes, and the world is measured in shades of gray. The players have as much stake in the world as they wish to have, but run the risk of abjuration from the realm, incarceration, exhoneration, adoration, worship and even death.
As to who the true heroes are is hard to say. :)
How does the growth of a PC affect their enviroment?
Using any method at their disposal that they desire to use?
How do you let them affect this enviroment?
If they use an ability they have affect change, then it happens as per the ability description.
How much of this afect comes from personal power, and how much from wealth?
Wealth is power. If my PC wastes wealth on whores, then the others will remind him that he can just flex his muscles around the Pretty Princesses and get his "needs" fulfilled that way.
How powerful do they become vs the common person?
House cats can kill a dirt farmer in my setting. Commoners are under fed, and extremely weak. Suffice to say, they use their detection skills (spot/listen) to avoid danger and find powerful adventurers to rely on.
How common are exceptional folk in your setting?
Enough that the PCs can't walk into every and declare themselves ruler. Generally as man as I need.
How does that change the dynamic?
Uh...
Powerful characters usualy use their abilities to acquire positions of power. King Mirafar is an extremely powerful Lich and has dominion over the metropolis he founded and named after himself, while Tina the Titillating Tambourinist is a wandering bard the has throws of love sick boys following her around like lost puppies.
How does notoriety play a part? How easy is fame to come by?
If the actions of the PCs have no witnesses or patrons, then the PCs will remain unkown.
Magical Bling is a symbol of power, so if the PCs carry it around town, then people assume they did something to acquire it. Like take it from someone who made it, or recover it from a lost tomb.
Adventurers have treasure. Hardcore adventurer have wicked treasure. Dirt farmers have fields of dirt.
Quote from: MonikerIn my campaign, the players in the past have done everything from forming a leftist radical group to topple (who they felt) was a corrupt Duke, to merging old houses together into a singular royal family, to ousting the Archbishop as a homosexual, to deifying through lies and glamour a political figure, to besieging a city and claiming it for their own, to infiltrating and subsequentially killing an important religion figurehead and replacing him with a faceman, to controlling exports by seizing customs fortifications coming into and out of the kingdom, to forging new vistas into unknown territory that's unmapped (and founding several communities within) and even breaking alliances between merchant coasters in two separate countries, therefore starving out an entire subsection of the country that faced a harsh winter and thus gutted the breadbasket of the kingdom. They've made a king from a bastard son, a pauper from a criminal overlord, an untouchable political figure into a dead one, they've written plays in the blood of their enemies, and made ethnic groups of roundly-hated people into a life of affluence and influence.
So, yeah...my players have a lot of geopolitical and intra/extrapersonal influence on the world they live within. But in my world, the villains are just the heroes on the other side of the story. There are no absolutes, and the world is measured in shades of gray. The players have as much stake in the world as they wish to have, but run the risk of abjuration from the realm, incarceration, exhoneration, adoration, worship and even death.
As to who the true heroes are is hard to say. :)
OK. a bit more realpolitik than many. I like that.
Now, in terms of the game as it was played, how much personal power was involved? How much of this politcal capital came from their actions, how much from their personal abilities, how much from the affect of money? SOme of this are more obvious, like the assassination of a well protected figure, but changing the sentiments of a population about an ethnic minority is quite the big deal.
I enjoy the plotlines discussed, BTW. None of my groups, even the one that is heading into year 13 have done so much, possibly because I make some of the factions involved very old and powerful, but the old groups is starting to make similar headway. They have replaced and takn over the local branch of the Eye (the northern thievesclan), and one member is ressurecting the ancient power of the Collegium Tortoris, the Torturer's Guild. Another member of that Group is becoming important in the local farming commune, and has become a confidant for the consul member of town from that Commune.
They are no where near in the top power bracket of even that small town, but they are by far in the top 2%. Also, as they are 'currently active', their notoriety is very apparent, and their cash outlay affects the towns economics pretty heavily.
Ethnic minorities to military power - this covers a small island nation of Walstania and a mighty theocracy called Goth Moran. Each of the peoples are descendant of the same stock, but divided a long time ago along religious lines. The PCs were from a small island-nation of Walstania. The Walstanians have always been regarded as "lesser folk" by their Gothric peers. Walstanians have served as slave stock of sorts to the machinations of the Gothric theocracy for many generations as indentured farmers and foresters. As the Walstanians have a sordid history (that dates back to when in fact the Walstanians were an exponentially more powerful house but fell under hubris), their education levels are extraordinarily low, their technology level is low and they have an extreme reliance upon their Gothric brethern. In short, the Walstanians are entirely dependant upon the country of Goth Moran for nearly everything, while Goth Moran is reliant upon Walstania for grains and lumber. The Walstanians are largely unorganized and have no central authority.
A small contingent of Walstanians grew tired of this, and formed a secret group called the WLF (Walstanian Liberation Front), operating out of the ruins of what was one the most well-frotified castles that fell into ruin during the Border War (a place called Murond Garrison). Gathering like-minded folk, they saught to ally the Walstanians to rise against the Gothric and invade the borderlands between the two countries, in an attempt to strike at grain silos and woodcutting factories along the river. Unfortunately, this is the point in the story where it gets messy...
Walstanian community leaders did not want to side with the WLF, as they didn't want to threaten the relationship between the two countries. The WLF forced the communities to take up arms with them by dressing up in Gothric garb and killing specific targets who bridged the two countries together. The WLF basically lied, killed its own community leaders and forced the hand of the Walstanian people against the Gothric. The players felt this a neccessary choice in order to force change within the Walstanian minds. Very, very gray area indeed!
Eventually, the WLF would swell in number but it would not be enough to topple the mighty Gothric theocracy. Things began to change in and around a place called the Cataracts, where a Walstanian monk discovered sulphur and its properties when mixed with saltpetre. This inevitably lead to the militarization of Walstania with gunpowder. Walstania With gunpowder, and the Walstanian's quick adaptation of its use through domestic terrorism against the Gothric grain silos and key fortifications, they were able to rise as a military, if not mercenary, power. Thus, the birth of their new nation, and the Republic of Walstania. Although, none outside of the central Walstanian Liberation Front authority knows that they killed their own kind to facilitate this change.
That's the sort of influence players have had on the story.
I've got to say, I love the use of song as a tool of political activism. I think it says a great deal about the world that can host such a game: not every setting could easily support that kind of action.
For me, I suppose the general axiom is that it's nearly impossible for a single person to turn the tide, but not unusual for them to affect the currents that comprise it.
I ran a political intrigue game a few years ago, where the players were nobles vying for control of a powerful house in Ithyria, a decadent and atavistic human nation that practices enslavement of nonhumans, crushing feudalism, and territorial war upon its neighbors.
Most of the PCs died ignobly. The one who finally won control of House Roccor was secretly a Locksmith, a member of a covert abolitionist brotherhood working to end slavery in Ithyria and elsewhere. He played it to the hilt, and none of the other players ever found out his true affiliation. (After the game ended and we explained this to the other players, there were several satisfying epiphanies, and shouts of "You bastard!")
Another player, after working very hard to establish a secret and multinational network of spies, informants, and political contacts, could easily see which way the wind was blowing. He faked his own death and fled the country before his rivals could kill him, and went into hiding in a seaside town, commanding his web of lackeys from outside his home country.
Both characters enshrined themselves in the history of the setting, but more profoundly, they brought about subtle and far-reaching changes to the regions they live in. Now the head of the oldest established Ithyrian noble house is secretly waging war upon that country's oldest and most arrogant tradition, and I think that is absolutely delicious.
Moniker: I love the names in your setting! Goth Moran just rolls off the tongue. I really think that's key to appreciating a setting. Your shades of grey world sounds most intriguing the way you describe it here.
LC: In spite of your axiom it sounds as though your players have made a good stab at it; I like the idea of a game played to the hilt of political intrigue. Was slavery ended btw?
Me:
My pcs have greatly affected the war they are involved with and are famous now in the Republic of New Edom as well as in some circles outside it. (enemies and those interested in making use of the Republic or the pcs themselves directly) Probably their most important actions to date have been revealing that certain dark magics have been used by some of their high ranking enemies--not just to their own side but to the enemy. It's one thing to know that your allies practice a kind of shadey religion, another altogether to know that they're aligned with extra-dimensional beings who want to use humanity as lunch. Not that everyone believes this, but enough will that the pcs have enabled the building of an alliance with one of the Celtic factions.
I try to set NPC groups as factions with agendas. The vampires of the undercity, the syndicate of gangsters, the watch, the church, the guilds, the people, etc. I measure what the PCs do according to each faction's agenda. Busting up a smuggling ring? Makes the syndicate cranky for sure and can even antagonize the watch if too many find out that it was the PCs, not the watch who did the good deeds. Depending on how they handle it, the syndicate will come after them for sure and maybe the watch will help, maybe not. Exposing dark rituals in the cathedral's basement? Who do you think will be angry about that? Do they want to destroy the Church, or just weed out the sickos all quiet like so as to preserve it? What they do has ramifications. Witness the ripple effect happen on it's own. No need to create trouble for them sometimes, just have to react.
They create their own influence this way. If they want to take on the Church, the State, the Underworld, the Invaders or anything else they can find I just let them. The factions will react. True, as a DM I display situations to them and have control over what factions are being touched on and can hide things from them, but I prefer to let them wander freely. It creates more work for me in the pre game setting up the town or city or country and all the factions therein as I need to be thinking two or three story arcs in advance while still allowing room for them to create their own trouble. But that's part of the fun, eh?
Note that I'm currently running an Exalted campaign, where the characters are supposed to be powerful enough to knock over entire kingdoms
at character creation - and this has influenced my thoughts on setting design in general. But I'll answer them for Urbis instead.
Quote from: LordVreegHow does the growth of a PC affect their enviroment?
They get noticed. Others begin to think how they might best fit into their plans, and either recruit them or attempt to mislead them and point them at their own enemies.
QuoteHow do you let them affect this enviroment?
How much of this afect comes from personal power, and how much from wealth?[/quote]How powerful do they become vs the common person?[/quote]How common are exceptional folk in your setting, and how does that change the dynamic?[/quote]How does notoriety play a part?[/quote]How easy is fame to come by?[/quote]
It's relatively easy to get a short period of fame, thanks to the higher availability of fast communication, printing, and even newspapers. However, to get lasting fame you must constantly produce new newsworthy incidents - but that shouldn't be too much of a problem for the average PC...
[blockquote=LC]Another player, after working very hard to establish a secret and multinational network of spies, informants, and political contacts, could easily see which way the wind was blowing. He faked his own death and fled the country before his rivals could kill him, and went into hiding in a seaside town, commanding his web of lackeys from outside his home country.
Both characters enshrined themselves in the history of the setting, but more profoundly, they brought about subtle and far-reaching changes to the regions they live in. Now the head of the oldest established Ithyrian noble house is secretly waging war upon that country's oldest and most arrogant tradition, and I think that is absolutely delicious. [/blockquote]
That's fantastic...and delicious. Those are the most satisfying changes on a setting, the subtle stirrings of the pot caused by the PC's.
Jurgen--Wow. Always interesting when someonw goes in the compete opposite direction, but does it well. My whole system is based on allowing growth, but keeping PC power and character power low in general. But you have set up the specifics in your exalted game to specifically enjoy those differences.
Quote from: LordVreegJurgen--Wow. Always interesting when someonw goes in the compete opposite direction, but does it well. My whole system is based on allowing growth, but keeping PC power and character power low in general. But you have set up the specifics in your exalted game to specifically enjoy those differences.
Actually, my Exalted campaign is even more extreme - in Exalted, even
starting characters are probably strong enough to take over entire kingdoms within short over (the PCs in my campaign took over a major city within a week of deciding to do so). My description was for Urbis, which assumes the more "normal" power escalation as seen in D&D. But even there the PCs should be able to make huge differences as they increase in power.
That doesn't mean that they are free from the consequences of their actions - quite the contrary. But they do have the change to change the world, if they only chose to wield it.