So, I'm browsing 4th edition stuff today (which has become almost a hobby of mine - I've never been this excited about a new rule system since Tome of Battle was released, and even then, that pales in comparison) and I was contemplating the 'Points of Light' theme 4e has. For those of you who haven't been following 4e, a major design point of the system is that the world is composed of points of light surrounded by darkness and wilderness, the ruins of dead civilizations, and the struggle to maintain these points amidst such horror.
I'm really liking this idea from a design standpoint. Besides allowing for PCs to have a more prominent place in the world, it also frees me from doing what I dislike most about design (nations) and frees me up to work on what I like most (overall world, monsters, races, ruins, planes.) Because of this, a number of my settings are going to incorporate this (see below.) However, I was wondering what you all think about this, and if you plan on either redesigning existing worlds to use it, or making new settings for it, or putting a new area in your setting apart from the rest of the world, or just ignoring it altogether.
Here's my settings, and how they'll use it.
Datrik: Already a points of light setting. I'll be posting more about it in the near future - my oldest setting returns!
Pirates: I'm going to focus less on continents and nations, and more on islands amidst the seas. Larger political entities will exist, but they're distant and removed: the Players will not be adventuring among them, and will in fact be outlaws there.
Western: Again, a setting made to fit points of light. The Civil war devastated the old nation, and the only major political entities is the railroad companies that connect the points of light that exist.
How about you?
I won't be using it.
Dilandri is almost an entirely urban campaign setting; the few peices of wilderness there are are surrounded by civilization. If anything, it's a points of darkness setting.
I also think that that is a bit of a cop-out; nations as we know them exist for a reason, and to expect the entire world to be far-removed city-states is preposterous.
The more I hear about 4e (not that I hear very much about it) the better it sounds. It's almost a shame I'm so maniacally determined not to buy any new rulebooks. Almost.
As for there "points of light" and my setting... well, Reth Jaleract basically doesn't have any. Oh, sure, there are locales which aren't overtly dangerous, and a few nice(ish) people scattered around, and even places of relative safety, but none of them are exactly... "light."
I see your point, but, if my history memory serves me correctly, during the Dark Ages most of civilization existed in this manner (without, you know, roaming orcs and goblins and dragons and demons). Plus, Points of Light doesn't mean they have to be far removed city states: nothing says that there can't be Fiefdoms that cover a large city and some smaller towns and maybe one or two other cities. Proto-nations, if you will. It just removes full out nations and large, powerful political entities.
Quote from: Xathan, Last of the FallenI see your point, but, if my history memory serves me correctly, during the Dark Ages most of civilization existed in this manner.
Well not exactly. The rule of many of the lower lords was tyrannical in and of itself, and crime was high. I wouldn't call it points of light, but that could just be me.
Quote from: Xathan, Last of the Fallennothing says that there can't be Fiefdoms that cover a large city and some smaller towns and maybe one or two other cities. Proto-nations, if you will. It just removes full out nations and large, powerful political entities.
the problem with that is that what's stopping a good lord from turning his seven or eight points of light into one big blob?
Quote from: KindlingThe more I hear about 4e (not that I hear very much about it) the better it sounds. It's almost a shame I'm so maniacally determined not to buy any new rulebooks. Almost.
As for there "points of light" and my setting... well, Reth Jaleract basically doesn't have any. Oh, sure, there are locales which aren't overtly dangerous, and a few nice(ish) people scattered around, and even places of relative safety, but none of them are exactly... "light."
Hehe, 4e may break your will yet. :P
I guess I'd maintain those points of light still count...they're just dim ones. (BTW, I need to look at Reth jaleract if that's true - sounds like my kind of setting.
In Adveria I had already been using this type of world building. Especially in the "New World" section (that hasn't made it here yet). In the "new world" section of Adveria there are only a few sparse colonies surrounded by vast yet unexplored wilderness. There are plenty of ruins from a civilization that died out and their slave races have now claimed the land (As noted in the Saurilk entry)
Even in the main continent places like Tirein are mostly wilderness with long travels from one city to the next during which you may run into bandits or even worse the military. With the wars, expansion, and wiping out of the area dwarves this leaves plenty of area for abandon and/or burnt towns (now home to other things) as well as various ruins (temple's to gods destroyed, dwarven homes buried).
Quote from: Stargate525Well not exactly. The rule of many of the lower lords was tyrannical in and of itself, and crime was high. I wouldn't call it points of light, but that could just be me.
the problem with that is that what's stopping a good lord from turning his seven or eight points of light into one big blob?
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Nothing. However, it'd be unlikely that he'd quickly be able to remove the monsters that roam between it - just make travel relatively safter, and seven or eigh points of light becoming a beacon would only be a larger point of light...and likely a more attractive target for more powerful monsters. In fact, being part of the unification and protection of such a beacon would be a great focus for a campaign.
In a points of light setting, the whole world did not always exist this way, and likely will not stay this way forever. It is just that, in the here and now, this is how it is.
Quote from: PoseidonIn Adveria I had already been using this type of world building. Especially in the "New World" section (that hasn't made it here yet). In the "new world" section of Adveria there are only a few sparse colonies surrounded by vast yet unexplored wilderness. There are plenty of ruins from a civilization that died out and their slave races have now claimed the land (As noted in the Saurilk entry)
Even in the main continent places like Tirein are mostly wilderness with long travels from one city to the next during which you may run into bandits or even worse the military. With the wars, expansion, and wiping out of the area dwarves this leaves plenty of area for abandon and/or burnt towns (now home to other things) as well as various ruins (temple's to gods destroyed, dwarven homes buried).
If it's new setting info about Adveria, post it! I'd love to see the direction it's going. (That sounds like a perfect points of light setting, the type of 4e setting I've been dying to play in - I especially like the aspect of the slave races becoming roaming entities, and it provides a good reason for their hatred of the more "civilized" races.) Plus, I'd like to review something by my most dedicated reviewer. :)
Of course, I won't be using the Points of Light concept. I'm much the opposite of Xathan here - nation-building in one of my favorite aspects. I also run humanoid-centric games where monsters are rare, rare, and rare. Points of light runs contrary to the themes of my setting.
That having been said, it makes a good deal of sense for a core D&D world to be based on the PoL theory. I've long believed that if you have a lot of high level people walking around, they are going to form their own communes. They'll become leaders of something. Those will grow into cities. Eventually every powerful anything is going to be leading their own city-state. These city-states will be numerous and widespread. Outside of the city state will be where the monsters have been pushed back to, because everyone is coming together and defending themselves. The only major flaw in this theory is that it holds no room for widespread agriculture. Shucks.
Quote from: Xathan, Last of the FallenPlus, I'd like to review something by my most dedicated reviewer. :)
Sigh..... I am officially now once again working on my setting.
Expect something soon. Even sooner than "Pirate Update soon", :P :P :P :P
Quote from: JharvissOf course, I won't be using the Points of Light concept. I'm much the opposite of Xathan here - nation-building in one of my favorite aspects. I also run humanoid-centric games where monsters are rare, rare, and rare. Points of light runs contrary to the themes of my setting.
I agree with Jharviss here. Much of my setting is based around political entities, and creating these entities is one of my favourite parts. On the other hand, you COULD say that the Archipelago is already kind-of 'Points of Light'... as much of what
could be called the wilderness is full of racist, speciesist villagers who would be fine with lynching you simply because you weren't a Duer. Of course, there are also many of these in the cities, so...
This is a good point... My setting, whilst full of violence-infested wilderness areas, also contains political bodies... it's just that the two are, mostly, one and the same.
I probably won't use it much. I might consider it in some places though. I mean, the idea is nice, and not too out of place for Avayevnon, but Avayevnon is just too built to be thought of as "Points of light."
A polite answer here, as Xathan deserves at least that.
I do not use any form of D&D, though I acknowledge freely that I did at earlier points and owe it a great deal.
Much like some of the others, My nation-states aer pertty fully formed, and rather than any 'points of light surrounded by darkness', I prefer my sparsley settled world with large areas where tribal humanoids and nature's noble beasts struggle.
I think it's a good explanation for D&D's race heavy setting. My race list is rather limited, and a number of those are limited in number (Yuan-Ti, Dwarves, etc have small populations and are in fact dying out as races) However in a way it fits because of the plans of the Lich Kalikazan who is spreading his undead rule over the world as best he can.
My pcs have enabled New Edom to remain free of the undead curse (that the dead will walk, that kind of thing) because of their various deeds and because they are worshippers of true gods--most religion in my campaign setting is false in fact or involves unknowing pacts with demons.
In Haveneast, it's already been there for a while in most respects. Many nations exist and most of them possess large sections of land in Myrenia (this will change soon, as the Age of Unity as it is called is near its end, and most countries will shrink/divide), but the land they lay claim to is usually not well maintained or guarded. Most of "civilization" lies within so many miles of the city except in the Empire of Llander. Beyond these regions lies hundreds of miles of quiet, dangerous terrain between centers of activity.
4e's "Points of Light" system is a relic of past human perceptions where everywhere humans don't go is overrun with not nice stuff, like soul sucking fey and baby eating werewolves. It's the standard industrialization fed fear of the wilderness.
PoL suffers from the arbitrary decision that monsters come from everywhere but cities, 'cause Lvl4 commoners are killed by packs of cats. The whole world is inherently divided into two distinct factions, Team Monster Force and Team Light Force. I think this is dumb, as it follows the simplistic design paradigm of old video games. The one where all towns are monster free, and leaving town generates random encounters.
NE is having a much different approach. We're calling it "Nodes". The concept is that the outer planes sometimes have portals that lead to them. Some are one-way or two-way gates, some are overlapping, and some are points of power called "Nodes".
These nodes are portals that only leak magic from the outer planes, and hanging around them gives you magical power. Setting up a thrown on a Node that seeps Death magic will make you a powerful Necromancer. Building a temple around a cloud node will give you genie magic. Living in a volcano will give you awesome gunpowder crafting skills. And if you just sit near a random Node you'll get some random badass powers. This isn't the only way to gain power in Ne, but it is the standard power acquisition method that DM controlled empires, overlords and random encounters use.
This doesn't create the setup where you have a Lighthouse surrounded by a city, and monsters infest the outside world like a plague, waiting for the PoL's war machine to wipe them out and build more Lighthouses.
This also setups random monster encounters inside cities built on a node, and keeps the lowest level creatures in the lower level areas.[/shamelessplug]
The year is 731 in the second age of Vantir. The empire is growing steadily, Eladrin are making groundbreaking discoveries in the fields of Arcane and Philosophy at the greatest of universities. The Dwarves have just established forms of primitive musketry and banking. In just the last eight year we have put a complete stop to the hobgoblin raids in the west, adopted halfling merchant city-states into the empire, and reunited with the remnants of the . The powers of the church, nobility, and guilds have been slowly waning in favor of a rising middle merchant class. Or at least that's the way it was two years ago, the golden age.
In just two short years, everything changed. The thought that the hobgoblin raids ceased was only partially true. During their eight years of silence, they was united every tribe in the west under a single banner. The strike can out of the blue, swift and merciless. Not only were their hobgoblin, but hordes of demons as well; no longer were they locked in the abysses of the elemental chaos, but free to pillage and burn as they choose.
Survivors are few and lonely, two-thousand at most. The Arch-Mage Ariel of the Arcane University has put together a ritual to tear a hole into another world, allowing us to escape from this wasteland. We will all travel to a clean world, a fresh one, free from the monstrosities of this age. Over the course of the next three long days, every one of us is to take what they can and journey to this new land, and a new age.
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The adventure really begins here, Ah'rem (literally meaning 'land known), a world that has never known empires, kingdoms, steel, or law. The initial PCs will most likely be Humans, Tieflings, Dwarves, or Eladrin: the civilized peoples. The new world will open up some new options - savage lizardfolk that worship the great fire-breathing beasts that rule the wilderness here, wood elves that seem to bear some relation to the eladrin of the homeworld, and maybe others.
The world will be wild, untamed, new, unknown, and dangerous. That seems appropriate to a new edition. The surviving colony will need a lot of help to survive, and PCs will have their pick of all kinds of missions. There might even be faint remnants of a precursor civilization, an entirely unknown species that could have left some dungeons behind.
I really like the PoL mindset, and an amount of it will be in my setting. But rather than "points of light in a sea of darkness", I want my setting to be "points of knowns in a sea of unknowns". I don't want my world to be a dangerous place, I want it to be a fantastic place. Yes, there will be danger, as the wilderness will be full of animals (and not all animals will be mundane in my world).
My first 4E game, after running some of the premade adventures in the default setting, will be an episodic world-traveling game. The players will be searching for things, and thus have an overarching story for the campaign, but they'll also have lots of side stories. I want to run a campaign like a TV series, where each session or adventure is an episode, connected with the others through continuity but not always content. I've been watching lots of Stargate SG1 and reading lots of comic books, and I'm thinking that this might be the best way for me to run a campaign.
Leaving more of the world unexplored and unknown does two things. First, a DM can pop things in as needed. Second, there are more places to travel and explore. Having a lost empire in the past leaves wonderful things for the players to find.
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Tom, your idea is awesome. As a player, your setting would inspire so much wonder in me. I'd want to explore the world and protect the people I came over with.