The Campaign Builder's Guild

I've ported my campaign setting Orden's Mysteries (http://www.thecbg.org/settings/12) to the Hosting area, and while I'm far from satisfied with how it looks as of yet, I'm putting it up for review. Please come and take a look! If you feel so inclined, please leave your thoughts, suggestions, flames (really, I'd love to hear them), ideas, donations, love letters or whatever here in this thread, or send me an email at turinthemormegil@gmail.com.

Of course, you can still take a look at my WotC forum thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=524560) and leave comments there, if you prefer. I will try to update both simultaneously whenever I update.

Thanks a lot for your time!
:detect: Túrin

I'm in the middle of a long and thorough review, that I hope to post within the next couple days. Work has been kicking my rear end, but I haven't forgotten.

-Nasty-

I've only skimmed over it, but I can safley say that I love the feel of the world (mysterious sums it up nicley).

I'm not sure on insanity rules for Sorcerors though. I'll have to see that in action before I can comment, but I personally hated the implementation found in UA.

Quick question, and forgive me if it's answered somewhere:

What does a felion look like?  I read through the text of new race on the CBG hosting area, but I must have missed the physical description of the race if it was in there.

I think this came up in the WotC-thread as well. No worries though. Rouhgly speaking, felion look Norse (blond hair, blue eyes) and are slightly longer and thinner than humans. Xeph look oriental(-ish).
Túrin

Alright I'll kick off the setting of the week with a discussion on the religions of Orden's Mysteries.

The basic premise of the religions is fundimentally sound, and interesting. We've basically got a pantheon for each major race in the setting, although humans have three pantheons (appropriate considering their greater numbers), and the xeph (nice choice by the way) have their conceptual religion known as the Madja. The pantheons themselves are fairly standard, and only a handful of dieties jumped out at me as really unique. That doesn't mean the pantheons are lacking or drab; on the contrary it reminds me of Greyhawk where there were numerous gods, each with their own role, and pantheons of Orden seem quite complete and cover all the basics.

The part of the religions that really grabbed me however were the churches. Essentially the churches are groups of synergistic ideals and portfolios grouped together. Each church has a few patron deities aligned together and worshipped as a group. I love the concept! A single deity often feels like a shallow one dimensional patron, that really restricts their followers to a select few particularly devoted extremists. The churches however have their own detailed dogmas, the combined domains of multiple deities, and room for a variety of different people to find something they can empathise with philosophically.

I'll post about individual churches and deities soon. For now I just want to say bravo on the concept of the churches. You have made religion and gods focal to the setting without resorting to a Foregotten Realms-like level of divine intervention. You have found a way to make churches feel more realistic without abandoning the pantheonic approach so central to core D&D. Well done.

While the thread on WotC has more churches, the thread here at CBG has only two. For the time being I will consider these two churches as "complete" in the sense that they have much more detail, and a firmly established history, structure, and role in society.

The first is the Morvindihc Church. The doctrines of the church are particularly knightly and emphasise honorable combat, glory, and polite romanticised chivalry, particularly towards women. This reminds in many ways of the knight in shining armor, and fits the setting quite well. It could be compared to the knights of the round table or the crusaders depending upon how you look at it. They seem equally capable of piety and benevolence, as they are of zealous self-righteousness which is fitting, because of the alignment ambiguity of the world of Orden.

The history is fairly short and centered around the legendary hero Cordin. The best part of the history however is the debate surounding its origin, and the "official" history accepted by the church. This leads one to wonder how it really came to be, and how much of the history has been glossed over or changed by church officials.

The organization seems to be largely based upon the old Byzantine church of the Eastern Orthodox Christians, which fits well enough, though It has very little detail other than titles and ranks. It would be nice to know the roles and duties of the various positions within the church heirarchy.

The Ormedish Church is far more interesting to me (and not just because of the fact that I had some input in it  :D ). The Ormedish Church is more militant and concerned with personal power and strength. It seems more concerned with maintaining control and like a tool use by the wealthy and powerful to legitimize their role in society.

The doctrines of the church are fairly standard tyranical beliefs, that emphasize absolute control and opression to keep order. The best part however is their acknolwedgment of Corbin within their doctrines, and belief that he attained godhood for reasons entirely different that those presented by their rival faith. In classic underdog style, they attack the bigger faith in their own doctrines.

The history is somewhat bland and could use a great event of some sort. For a church of domineering tyrants they have a surprisingly boring history without any significant military campaigns, or major victories, which would help. They aspire to crown a new emperor, but have yet to succeed...they need a success of some kind somewhere in there.

The organization of the church is fantastic however. It has a rigid heirarchy that is both interesting and befitting of their mentality. Of particular note was the appointment of a noble elder.

QuoteUntimely death in this case means within twelve days of their appointment, which is the minimum time a Noble Elder is required to wait before naming their successor. Unfortunately, the first twelve days of Noble Eldership also happen to be the most dangerous: most Noble Elders sit in the council either less than twelve days or more than five years.

I love this!

I'll post on the races next. Probably tomorrow.

-Peace-

I've read over your bit on class information; first, I think I found a typo (you listed Sorcerers as having 5 sanity resistance at level 20, but if they start at 1 at 1st level and gain 1 every 4 levels, shouldn't they gain sanity resistance 6 at 20th level?).

Secondly, I like that you've put more organization into the nature of spellcasting for each class. Your idea for sorcerers is fun, though I think they may need something to make up for the sanity risk. Do their sanity points regenerate each day, like HP?

I'm going to read over the religions and see if I can find some of those Clerical taboos. Very good idea by the way.

(I commented on the classes first because it's easier for me to provide feedback on crunch, as I feel most people here know what they're looking for in their fluff).

Well I suppose I'll start on the races of Orden. I'd like to lead off with some of the things that caught my attention. The elves and their matriarchal society, actually sounds quite interesting. I had at first glance, been against the idea, but it actually sounds preety good. Maybe I had some preconceived notions from the drow clouding my initial impression, but after reading it through, it is structured well, makes sense, and doesn't diminish the importance of males in their culture.

The Felion really need some more detail. Unlike elves, humans, dwarves, and other PHB races, the Felion don't jump out at the reader with visual images. A short paragraph about dwarves can be adequate, becuase we already know about them, but for the Felion it just doesn't give us enough. New races need quite a bit more detail in order to bring them to life.

Xeph are awesome, and I'm glad to see them in a pronounced role in a setting. The psuedo-oriental theme you have selected for them is great, and I think they make a fine substitute for halflings (which I think was your intent).

You have an interesting take on the half-breeds and their origin. The half elves as creatures with the best qualities of both human and elf, is a nice twist. I do wonder however why the orcs did not get similar treatment. Since they were specifically created as a slave race, it stands to reason that strength and constitution bonuses (like an orc) would be a great asset. I am curious why the half-elves got boosted and the half-orcs got slighted. It seems that they were created by similar means.

I am slightly dissapointed with the gnomes, and not just because I'm not a big fan of the race either. The steroetypical gnome tinkerer is not something I have ever been a huge fan of in any serious game. They play the role of comic relief in most settings, and unfortunately your gnomes are not much different than the streotype I dislike so much. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with gnomes as presented though. All it means is that I personally don't like core gnomes, and yours don't differ enough to peak my interest.

The rest is fairly standard fair, but that's just fine. PHB races don't really need any tweaking to be interesting. So long as their nations and cultures are well defined and fresh, they can be completely different, while being mechanically identical.

I'll hit up either nations or classes next.

-Peace-

While I haven't given it a thorough read (yet), I have skimmed over your information several times and can say that Orden's Mysteries is a very interesting campaign setting. The theme of mystery and the removal of alignment in particular pique my interest, and I'll be sure to give it a decent review in the future :)

Another quick question: how do the taboos of the Morvindhic church work for female clerics?  Are they still required to be polite towards women, or are they instead required to be polite towards men?

Ok, I'm gong to comment randomly, since I'm reading random tidbits:

The Felion are really cool. Are they actually just long lost cousions of humanity, or a different race? I was just talking about how bland the Mystic Theruge class is, and there you go an make it interesting. I agree with Nasty that we need more on the Felion, especially apperance wise.

I really like the Ormedish Church. Just curious, how much of that doctrine was inspired by Hobbe's philosophies? I could see Leviathian almost reading the same as the Ormedishian holy text.

Like nasty, I like what you've done with the Xeph. I would like to see more abou them, however. They're a race that the sterotype is not  yet as sunk in, and therefore have alot of room for addition.

That's what I got for now, I'll bounce around to more later. Great stuff, over all.

Thanks everyone! I'm glad you all took the time (be it long or short) to take a look and tell me what you think. Many comments here (not just nasty's) give me food for thought. A few initial reactions:

@ nastynate: I'm not even sure whether I want to comment on your analyses, but if I do, I'll wait until you're finished. Please make a note of it when you post your last one. So far, your in-depth critiques have been extremely useful to reflect on my own work. Thanks a lot!

@ Xeviat: the text is actually correct: it says Sorcerers get resistance 1 at level 4, increasing by one every four levels thereafter. Thus, he has resistance 0 throughout levels 1-3,and reaches 5 at level 20.

Sanity is regained naturally at the same rate as hp: 1 point per level per day (this works off character level, not class level). Natural Sanity healing is received if and when the character has slept 8 hours, but sleeping longer or using the Heal skill will never increase the amount of daily Sanity healing. Divine magic is required for this. Thanks, comment at your leisure!

@ WitchHunt: Thanks! Looking forward to it.

@ Epic_Meepo: This was something I hadn't thought of yet. Note that most of the clergy consists of men, especially in the Morvindhic and Ormedish churches (which are stuffed with the second sons of nobles, who send their (first) daughters to wizard school). I'm inclined to say that female clergy would also be required to be polite to women. The taboo is based on "protecting the weaker sex", not "protecting the other sex", and I think female clerics would be somewhat manly in their mannerisms and would feel a desire to protect other (weaker) women. Thanks for pointing this out!

@ Xathan, Last Of The Fallen: more on the felion and xeph will probably come soon, as it looks like I will have both a felion and a xeph in my new campaign (I'm glad I've piqued the interest of both the people here and my new group of players with these new races).

Initially, I just wanted the Ormedish Church to be tyrannical, and I wrote down "tyrannical lordship" as a catchphrase for their doctrine. Once I had to write a full paragraph about their doctrine, I found that I needed some way to make it sound at least somewhat convincing, rather than just screaming "lawful evil cliché", if I was going to make myself believe ordinary people would follow this church. So I thought for a few minutes and came up with the doctrine as it stands now. It isn't deliberately based on Hobbes, but I've read an excerpt from Leviathan earier this year, so I imagine he could have been a subconscious inspiration. Thanks to you as well, for the kind words!

Hope to hear from you all later!
Túrin

Quote@ nastynate: I'm not even sure whether I want to comment on your analyses, but if I do, I'll wait until you're finished. Please make a note of it when you post your last one. So far, your in-depth critiques have been extremely useful to reflect on my own work. Thanks a lot!

Feel free to post now or later, but I was hoping for some decent dialogue and discussion. I would much rather hear what you have to say, and discuss the pros and cons, than do a detached review. It may be encouraging to note that I have to actually search for inconsistencies and other things I don't like, but the things I do like greatly out-number them.

I think your input will only help me to help you.

-Peace-

I think you're right. Let's see if I can break down your earlier posts and comment on them wherever I have something to say.

Quote from: nastynatethe xeph (nice choice by the way) have their conceptual religion known as the Madja.

A minor correction here: Madja is the name I give to the conceptual religion followed by the felion. The xeph have an animist-like religion. Their pantheon is called the takuri (or something like that ;)).

Quote from: nastynateA single deity often feels like a shallow one dimensional patron, that really restricts their followers to a select few particularly devoted extremists.

While the thread on WotC has more churches, the thread here at CBG has only two. For the time being I will consider these two churches as "complete" in the sense that they have much more detail, and a firmly established history, structure, and role in society.[/quote] I hope to eventually detail the other six major churches that are briefly mentioned in the WotC-thread in the same way. Until then, don't forget that there are eight major churches, not two.

Quote from: nastynateThe best part of the history however is the debate surounding its origin, and the "official" history accepted by the church. This leads one to wonder how it really came to be, and how much of the history has been glossed over or changed by church officials.

[The Ormedish Church] seems more concerned with maintaining control and like a tool use by the wealthy and powerful to legitimize their role in society.[/quote]The history is somewhat bland and could use a great event of some sort.[/quote]
The Felion really need some more detail.[/quote] As I mentioned, I expect to give felion and xeph some more attention soon, as I will have one of each in my upcoming campaign as it stands now. As for the felion: they were created just before my first campaign started and never got some good thinking behind them. We'll see where that goes. I want to try to keep them at least somewhat mysterious though.

Quote from: nastynateI am curious why the half-elves got boosted and the half-orcs got slighted. It seems that they were created by similar means.

The rest is fairly standard fair,[/quote] What exactly do you mean by "the rest"? Didn't you name every race individually except dwarves? So aren't you just saying "the dwarves are fairly standard fair"? Or am I missing something here?

I think that's all I have to say for now. Thanks for these very helpful thoughts.

Cheers!
Túrin

QuoteI think you're right. Let's see if I can break down your earlier posts and comment on them wherever I have something to say.

 :afro:

QuoteA minor correction here: Madja is the name I give to the conceptual religion followed by the felion. The xeph have an animist-like religion. Their pantheon is called the takuri (or something like that ;)).

oops...

QuoteAs you seem to have guessed, this is intentional. In my mind, pantheonic gods represent common values and clichés, so it seemed logical to keep them basic and somewhat predictable. Note that other pantheons (if I ever detail them in full) will be less predictable.

Excellent. Glad I got your intended message.

Quote

Quote from: nastynate[The Morvindhics] seem equally capable of piety and benevolence, as they are of zealous self-righteousness which is fitting, because of the alignment ambiguity of the world of Orden.

I would love to read about that.

[blockquote]

Quote from: nastynateIt has very little detail other than titles and ranks. It would be nice to know the roles and duties of the various positions within the church heirarchy.

You may be right, but at least I would be interested. I detailed the heirarchy of the priests of Kesh in my setting in this way, and (if I may say so myself) it's quite interesting. I have defined roles and duties within the priesthood, but religion in Kesh is very important (like it was in ancient Babylon or Egypt). Granted what I like and what the rest of the world likes are sometimes entirely different things.

[blockquote]

Quote from: nastynateThe best part however is their acknolwedgment of Corbin within their doctrines, and belief that he attained godhood for reasons entirely different that those presented by their rival faith.

Cordin seems like a pretty important fellow.

[blockquote]

Quote from: nastynateThe Felion really need some more detail.

As I mentioned, I expect to give felion and xeph some more attention soon, as I will have one of each in my upcoming campaign as it stands now. As for the felion: they were created just before my first campaign started and never got some good thinking behind them. We'll see where that goes. I want to try to keep them at least somewhat mysterious though.

Even a more detailed physical description or a little about their homeland would be enough to make them feel more "real."

Quote

Quote from: nastynateI personally don't like core gnomes, and yours don't differ enough to peak my interest.

Maybe I should play up their military cunning and associated annoyingness more?[/b] Or maybe I should just leave them as is; I know some people that like gnomes a lot.

That associated annoyingness is just the thing about gnomes I don't like. Now their military cunning on the other hand, would be very interesting.

[blockquote]

Quote from: nastynateThe rest is fairly standard fair,

The rest are dwarves and humans just FYI.

This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for by the way, when Xathan proposed the setting of the week. Good chatting with ya.

-Peace-

I think the Sanity Rules are fine. As always everything seems to be looking good.

Thanks as always, Elf_Jedi! Welcome to the CBG, and keep posting!
;) Túrin

In the interests of catching up on campaign showcases, I'm going to hit your setting first.  Since the other reviewers apparently didn't provide much feedback on your nations, I think I'll be starting there.  Now, off to read.

Ok, apparently reviews on all the showcases was a crazy thought, and I'd be better off just keeping up wit the showcases starting this wekk.  However, I will give you my brief comments on your nations.  I apologize for any innacurate judgements due to my narrow reading.

Armindor
Looks to be a standard human feudal kingdom, although I find it interesting that the elves exist within.  I like how your pantheon has a place of origin.

Lotarin
So, basically like Armindor with a different church.  I find the attitude of tolerance interesting, based on the tendencies of humanity to force religion on others.  May I ask why the "Lotarish are considered strange, incomprehensible folk by the people of Armindor"?

Alacar
Ok, I read aout House Del'Ramis, so I know how these guys came to be.  I'm not sure how neccessarily interesting the pattern of revolutions that took place are, but maybe that's just my personal taste.  good to see that a revolution was successful and had real results, rather than just happening and being forgotten.

Mador
I like Mage kingdoms, I'm not sure why.  Also interesting how the wizards are the people with a republic.  I'd like to hear more about these guys, so if you're going to write some new stuff, please do it here.  Magocracy's, even if they're a republic, always interest me.

Onemún
I'm sorry, but although this is an obviously different type of government, I wonder why you make so many countries that are so similar?

I'm going to stop here, in light of the fact tht i don't think I'm being very helpful.  I'll leave you with my thoughts however.

I tend to like drastic differences and clear excitement.  Perhaps Orden's mysteries is just too mysterious for me.  I can see that you've put a great deal of effort into this world, and I hope you port over all that you've got at WotC onto your website.  Unfortunately, the subtle nature of political intrigue and human strife just isn't that interesting to me.

I apologize for not giving you a thorough review, but I'll say that I tried and be on my way.

Fair enough. Thanks anyway. Let's take a look at your questions.

Lotarin: the people of Lotarin differ greatly from the people of Armindor in terms of language, habits, religion, etc. (in general: culture). Hence, they appear to be unpredictable and strange when seen from the viewpoint of Armindor and the other nations in the Armindoréan area (including Alacar, Mador, Baron and Onemún).

Mador: Mador is already a very detailed nation, but unfortunately, most of the work I did on this nation has been in Dutch, so I have been unable to post it. Mador is a strange nation, to be sure, and I'll try to get more info up someday.

Onemún: I don't understand. First you say it's clearly different, but then you say why is it similar?

On a sidenote, I actually finished porting from WotC to here. All major Orden's Mysteries information is now found both here and at WotC.

Thanks for the questions. They help me think. Be sure to post again if you have any more.

Túrin

So, full circle as they say. Orden's Mysteries is the featured setting for the second time. Read small or large parts of it at your leisure and be sure to leave some thoughts here or wherever.

As an interesting thought experiment, in relation to gathering material for my upcoming Orden's Mysteries campaign, I'm asking you to provide adventure ideas based on Orden's Mysteries specific (or semi-specific) material.

As always, all kinds of thoughts and ideas are welcome, be they one word or ten pages. This also goes for the adventure seeds.

Thanks in advance all,
Túrin

Well I've read or skimmed most of your site, so I'll try to offer a fairly detailed review.  Please forgive any points duplicated by other reviewers, as I only briefly glanced at the other reviews.

On your Introduction:
I think you do a really good job of presenting clearly the themes of mystery in the setting, enough so I was envious that I had not quite so clearly stated my similar themes.

Your top two themes (mythology and history) are usually my favorite part of any setting.

I also like magic being mysterious, as well as the emphasis on politics, and removal of alignment.

Mythology
The Armindorean creation myth is very interesting.  How does one say "Kaos's" name?  Is it basically the same as the word "chaos?"  It seems he represents the exact opposite of that concept, but the words are so similar, I am curious.

The story of the rods is creative.  It kind of reminds of the Silmarillion stuff, though it's been years since I've read that.

Do all the races agree that races are embodied by elemental concepts?  Do orcs believe themselves driven by negative energy?  Interesting that humans and dragons have the same core forces.

The lost golden age is a common theme in many real-world mythologies, so it has always appealed to me.

Religion
You've gone above and beyond here, I'd say.  Countless religions, complex pantheons.  I cannot say I've often seen multiple faiths following the same deity.  Or rather, I'd say I do not often see multiple faiths admitting that their deities are the same.  I think many settings (mine included) may have some deities that are just known by different names in different cultures.

Races
The Felion are interesting, and the Madja idea is great.  It gives them a truly unique feel.
I'm not big on elven sub-races, honestly, but they are true to Core, and thus important to many DMs.  Your method of saying they chose their sub-race is a nice twist if you are going to have sub-races.
I wouldn't normally associated gnomes with Air, since gnome is in folklore an earth spirit, but maybe that's just the mythology of Amindor

QuoteOrcs are fierce and strong and like to destroy things.

They[/i] say it's mental powers, but who knows.
Half-elves have finally gotten their due, I see.  Nice back-story here; it's always good to see explanation for the way things are (the taboo and such).

Nations
I can say I honestly only skimmed this as yet, but it looks good so far, like you've put a lot of detail in.

I especially like style of detailed nation write-up.  I always try to use a very similar one.

History
Something I can get into more than nations.  So the timeline is basically the Armindorean version of history, then?

QuotePerhaps the most important phenomenon modern scholars of Orden need to deal with is what is sometimes called â,¬Å"the Black Holeâ,¬Â.

Calendar[/b]
Nice choice on the days of the week.  I would assume certain rituals would be performed on certain days when the appropriate energy was right?

It has been my experience that while unique month names adds to the alienness of a world (if that's what you want), it gain make tracking time in game more difficult.  I did that in a game that ran two years, and we still sometimes had to look back at the calendar to remember the next month.  Of course, it's only a mild suggestion, as it does add something, and looking it up is not that big a deal.

Good choice on making years 365 days long.  I remember trying to explain to someone why I thought we would lose reference to the meaning of time in a world where a year was not the same length as what we mean when I say a year.  If I say Joey is 50 years old, it means something very different in a world where a year is 100 days.

Classes
Interesting use of the Sanity system.  I tried using it before, but found it had some issues.  However, perhaps this limited version may work better for you.

Overall
Very nice work.  In many ways, it reminds me of mine own thoughts on how I want my campaign setting to look - mysterious, a little dark, and rife with intrigue.

I'll try to look at this in some more depth as I have time.  Once again, I've found a setting here that helps to inspire me to keep slaving away on my own.

At this point, I have read the setting's Introduction and related materials only. I'll be tackling the entire thing, commenting as I go.

So far, I am liking what I'm seeing, especially in terms of the themes you've laid out. The sort of "intellectual exploration" that results from the attempted unraveling of these mysteries is really compelling; from Orden's Mysteries, it's clear that one should expect games that are layered and complex, where adventure is potentially more about discovery than about slaying monsters and claiming treasure, the stale standby motivations of our genre. Instead, I'm getting more of an Indiana Jones style of image, where the treasures are important because of their historical and religious significance, and adventurers double as scholars and investigators, not merely as thugs.

The emphasis on history and religion, I can tell, is going to lend a certain depth and weight to everything. I am also particularly intrigued by the concept of theories of magic and the heated debates among practitioners of different theories, and about the Errators. The idea of religion and philosophy made tangible through association with magic, then seemingly pushed aside, to an extent, and treated as a means to an end... that's a fascinating concept.

In the category of things that bother me, well... there are a lot of names and places being thrown out at a high rate, and no visual anchor for them. I feel like a map or several might help cement them in my mind; as it is, everything's somewhat of a mashup. Perhaps coming across the nations again in greater detail will give me more of a firm impression of what they're about and where they are.

Off to read chapter 2.

Quote from: Luminous CrayonThe sort of "intellectual exploration" that results from the attempted unraveling of these mysteries is really compelling; from Orden's Mysteries, it's clear that one should expect games that are layered and complex, where adventure is potentially more about discovery than about slaying monsters and claiming treasure, the stale standby motivations of our genre. Instead, I'm getting more of an Indiana Jones style of image, where the treasures are important because of their historical and religious significance, and adventurers double as scholars and investigators, not merely as thugs.

And this really appeals to me.

My thoughts upon the completion of Chapter 2: Religion.

As it often happens in fantasy, humans are given the spotlight, and nonhuman races are pushed aside, marginalized. This was nagging at the back of my mind, until the story of Prodan and the Rods of Creation. It is a powerful thing to see mortal leaders walking the earth with the power of Creation itself, accomplishing wise and powerful deeds, only to be brought low by hubris, destroying the source of their power in the process. This human war over control of the shards of humanity's Rod, as well as the failed plan of escape by the nonhumans and the resultant ascention of their gods, is a fascinating story, and one that goes a very long way to support a status quo that, ordinarily, would turn me off.

Beyond that, I'm intrigued by the complexity of your pantheon, and the variety of religious forms that are followed in Orden. In particular the rivalry between the Morvendhic and Ormedish Churches, and their conflicting claims to know the "correct" interpretation of Cordin's actions and ascention-- that's an awesome dynamic.

I'm definitely intrigued by the taboos associated with each church. I look forward to hearing more about that as I read on.

Seems like gnomes are shaping up to be the silly trickster types again. I don't know about that. But you've handled everything else in this setting with remarkable detail and precision, so I'll wait and see how that's supported before I draw conclusions.

Thoughts upon reading Chapter 3: Races.

Again, the geography is rather confusing without some kind of map. The ancestral lands of each race are not easy to pin down, and the descriptions raise entirely new questions about the West. That part has me pretty confused.

I am also interested to note that the creation myth associates each race with an element, but that association is entirely absent from the actual chapter on races. Do you mean to imply that the elemental associations are a thing of the past, and are unknown or disbelieved by most modern, forward-thinking folk?

The contrast between elves and dwarves is nicely underscored by their relative presence and absence of internal feuding. Well played. The elven gender roles are also a nice touch, but by contrast, the dwarves seem, quite frankly, a little boring.

Regarding felion: I still have no idea what these people look like, or much about them at all (although they might be deliberately obscured, as their policy of isolation seems to imply.) Theories about their origins as divergently evolved from early humans are fascinating. However, their name keeps making me think "feline", and in my head, I can't seem to stop ascribing catlike qualities to them. Some kind of illustration would help quite a bit.

As for gnomes, their trickster status still rankles my personal sensibilities. But you play it off well by spinning it into the larger tapestry. The humans blame the god of gnomes for the same sorts of things for which you or I might blame Murphy's Law. In a weird way, it works.

I like the mystery with which you surround the orcs. As for the xeph, I have little to say without more information. So, they're the fast race. Part of me wants to say, so what? They've yet to grab my attention, or really distiguish themselves in my mind.

The way in which you describe the creation and rationale behind half-races is quite fascinating. It's especially interesting that the knowledge to facilitate cross-species breeding is now lost-- yet another iteration of the themes of mystery and forgotten knowledge that you laid out at the start. House Siarlen is clearly a force to watch out for, though that section is full of assumptions made by just about everyone that elven blood is valuable, and human blood weakens it. In light of humans' previous status as a clearly dominant race in the East, why is that such a natural assumption to make?

Chapter 4: Nations

Again, this chapter is full of a lot of place-names that are hard to assign any significance to without some sort of map. Nevertheless, I'm doing my best.

It's interesting the way you've integrated the concept of democracy, but I find it a little improbable that Duke Légard could get away with its implementation. Didn't some nobles, faced with the concept of losing power, resort to extreme measures to resist democracy and maintain a favorable status quo? If I were Légard, I'd be constantly worried about assassination.

Again, if we're working on the assumption that elven blood is widely regarded as superior to human blood, particularly by the elves themselves, why would the Elven Queendom subordinate itself to the Imperial Throne? Would that not be a move beneath the dignity of the average elf?

Why is the technological advancement of Loophar cause for its neighbors to consider the country a nuisance? Technological advancement strikes me as a thing to be envied and perhaps even feared, unless of course we are talking about garden-variety gnome practical joke technology, or the kind of "advancement" that usually explodes in your face.

In general, it seems like playing a non-human in Orden should be very difficult, because most of the detailed parts of society are humanocentric. Playing a gnome sounds like it would be damn near impossible, in part due to heavy bias against them, and in part because the reader of the setting is only given the information about the gnomes that the gnomes have allowed humans to learn. I can't imagine how, faced with that handicap, a player would be able to portray a gnome accurately and faithfully. To varying extents, the same may also be true of your other non-human races.

Moving on to Chapter 5.

Chapter 5: Thoughts on history.

There's a lot of stuff here, and the size and volume of it is fairly intimidating. I feel the previous four chapters are a worthy preparation for the reader, however, if everyone is doing as I am, and reading it in order.

I am really impressed by the natural-seeming way you handle relations between nations. Small wars and big ones, alliances and invasions, seem to proceed in a natural way, consistent with the way real-world treaties and conflicts unfold and progress. I wish I could handle foreign relations with such facility in my own work.

So, are/were the dragons and orcs allied? That strikes me as strange on principle, and stranger in light of the dragons' association by Kaos with the positive/time elements, and orcs with the presumably opposed negative. How did that alliance happen?

Again, here's the conflict between East and West, and I'm still completely in the dark about the West, what it is, and how it came to be. Did I miss something obvious here, or is the West currently being portrayed as little more than a faceless villain? Not that it's necessarily a problem if it is, but I want to make sure my understanding of the situation is adequate, and the lack of detail in the west seems inconsistent with the huge amount of detail everywhere else.

I love the numerology in the calendar, and its associations drawn between weeks and forces, and between months and gods. This is clearly going to result in days where the day of the week matches elements with the element associated with the god of the current month. Do these overlaps have any sort of effect on timekeeping, superstition, religion, or prophecy?

Also, this is partly from last chapter as well, but it seems to me you're trying awfully hard to squeeze in more elven subraces than you really know what to do with. I can see that based on what you wrote about elven religions, Choices, and feuds, all of these subraces have to go somewhere... but it may be creating more problems than it solves; many of the elven subraces' lands are completely un-detailed, and even unnamed. Are they all truly necessary?

Chapter 6 and the last: classes.

Again, I'd like to see more on the various schools of thought practiced by wizards in order to safeguard and control their magic. We get to see all about the various clerics' taboos in a previous chapter, but we see almost nothing of the wizards' philosophies (which I consider odd, since arguments over philosophies form the quotes you chose at the beginning of the introduction.)

For clerics, I really like the system of taboos, but really. A single infraction strips a cleric of all powers? That seems a little harsh, especially considering the nature of some of the taboos, and how hard it would be to avoid doing some of those things. I guess that's part of the point; making it tricky.

For rangers, the ability to take an oath to hunt a creature type to extinction instead of a taboo is an interesting way to justify the "favored enemy" thing, a class ability whose common interpretation I have never liked. Here again, it seems to paint rangers who choose it as rabid, zealous fanatics about something rather silly. Does a ranger who fails to attack and kill his oath-specified enemy lose all his powers? Doesn't this compel rangers to get in over their heads in combat, practically all the time?

Errators are interesting in their mechanics. Frankly, I'm inclined to agree with wizards' assessment of them: I wouldn't want to have an errator around. I should note that the average save DC for errators' higher-level spells is much lower than any other spellcasters': Int Mod + 1d20 makes spell save DCs average about equal for 0-level and 1st-level spells, but without adding the spell level, Errators have to roll a 19 or better to match the standard, constant save DC for a wizard's 9th level magic. Is that intentional?

A question that occurred to me today: What has become of the Rods of Creation? They are all broken due to overexertion, right? Did they scatter fragments all over the place when they broke, like the Rod of Humanity did, and if so, are those fragments still floating around somewhere in the world?

The humans who had the shards of humanity's Rod took those shards with them when they ascended into godhood, right? If so, and if the shards of the other Rods are still around, couldn't anyone find a shard and become a god?

Just looked over setting. So far, just plain love it. Wild magic. No alignment. Usually things I wouldn't opt for myself, but handled very very well!

Hey all,

The start of the new academic year provoked my sudden disappearance for four days, but here I am. First off, thank you, beejazz, for your kind words. Second, thank you very very much Phoenix Knight and Luminous Crayon for reading, liking, and thoroughly reviewing my work. It is much appreciated. I'll tackle Phoenix Knight's comments first, and if it isn't bed-time when I finish, Luminous Crayon comes right after. While I love all the positive points you two have pointed out, in my replies I'll be focusing on the questions and criticisms. To keep post length somewhat reasonable, I'll only quote the parts that I actually reply to and snip around here and there.

Important note with many of your comments (both those of PK and of LC): Both of you have been digging to the depth of Orden's Mysteries. Despite it apparently appearing as large to most viewers, it is very much a work in progress (in the sense that it's unfinished and far from what I'd want it to be, not in the sense that I'm actually making much progress with it). Thus, to many of your comments I must simply admit: I haven't gotten around to it yet. While it may be true that a setting is never finished, I very much feel many areas have not gotten the amount of attention they deserve, and between the two of you you have pointed out (almost?) all of those areas.

Now, on to actual content. :yumm:

Quote from: Phoenix KnightMythology
The Armindorean creation myth is very interesting.  How does one say "Kaos's" name?  Is it basically the same as the word "chaos?"  It seems he represents the exact opposite of that concept, but the words are so similar, I am curious.

Do all the races agree that races are embodied by elemental concepts?  Do orcs believe themselves driven by negative energy?[/quote]Interesting that humans and dragons have the same core forces.[/quote]I wouldn't normally associated gnomes with Air, since gnome is in folklore an earth spirit, but maybe that's just the mythology of Amindor[/quote]Orcs are fierce and strong and like to destroy things.[/quote]Why strip [xeph] of psionics, though?[/quote]History
Something I can get into more than nations.  So the timeline is basically the Armindorean version of history, then?[/quote]A little more information on the Dark Three might be cool, even if it is just the speculation of those historians.  Do they believe these people were humans?  Dragons?  Vampires?  Demons?  Evil gods?[/quote]Were the Dragon Wars wars against dragons (it sounds that way)?  Did the dragons start the wars?[/quote]How did they end?  Did the dragons come to the peace table and surrender?  Did they just leave?[/quote]Calendar
Nice choice on the days of the week.  I would assume certain rituals would be performed on certain days when the appropriate energy was right?[/quote]Of course, [not using your own names for the months and the days is] only a mild suggestion, as it does add something, and looking it up is not that big a deal.[/quote]Good choice on making years 365 days long. (...) If I say Joey is 50 years old, it means something very different in a world where a year is 100 days.[/quote]Overall
Very nice work.  In many ways, it reminds me of mine own thoughts on how I want my campaign setting to look - mysterious, a little dark, and rife with intrigue.

I'll try to look at this in some more depth as I have time.  Once again, I've found a setting here that helps to inspire me to keep slaving away on my own.
[/quote]
Thanks very much. I'd love to hear from you again. Now it's off to bed though. LC's comments will be replied to later.

Cheers,
Túrin

Besides pointing out how very cool it is that you (Luminous Crayon) picked the setting apart so in-depth (especially given its size), I donâ,¬,,¢t have anything general to say, so Iâ,¬,,¢ll just get right to responding to your comments.

Quote from: theeastofordensmall5bn.png

[quoteMy thoughts upon the completion of Chapter 2: Religion.

I am also interested to note that the creation myth associates each race with an element, but that association is entirely absent from the actual chapter on races. Do you mean to imply that the elemental associations are a thing of the past, and are unknown or disbelieved by most modern, forward-thinking folk?[/quote]However, their name keeps making me think "feline", and in my head, I can't seem to stop ascribing catlike qualities to them.[/quote]As for gnomes, their trickster status still rankles my personal sensibilities. But you play it off well by spinning it into the larger tapestry. The humans blame the god of gnomes for the same sorts of things for which you or I might blame Murphy's Law. In a weird way, it works.[/quote]It's especially interesting that the knowledge to facilitate cross-species breeding is now lost[/quote]House Siarlen is clearly a force to watch out for, though that section is full of assumptions made by just about everyone that elven blood is valuable, and human blood weakens it. In light of humans' previous status as a clearly dominant race in the East, why is that such a natural assumption to make?[/quote]Didn't some nobles, faced with the concept of losing power, resort to extreme measures to resist democracy and maintain a favorable status quo?[/quote]If I were Légard, I'd be constantly worried about assassination.[/quote]Again, if we're working on the assumption that elven blood is widely regarded as superior to human blood,[/quote]particularly by the elves themselves,[/quote]why would the Elven Queendom subordinate itself to the Imperial Throne? Would that not be a move beneath the dignity of the average elf?[/quote]Why is the technological advancement of Loophar cause for its neighbors to consider the country a nuisance? Technological advancement strikes me as a thing to be envied and perhaps even feared,[/quote]In general, it seems like playing a non-human in Orden should be very difficult, because most of the detailed parts of society are humanocentric. Playing a gnome sounds like it would be damn near impossible, in part due to heavy bias against them, and in part because the reader of the setting is only given the information about the gnomes that the gnomes have allowed humans to learn. I can't imagine how, faced with that handicap, a player would be able to portray a gnome accurately and faithfully. To varying extents, the same may also be true of your other non-human races.[/quote]I am really impressed by the natural-seeming way you handle relations between nations. Small wars and big ones, alliances and invasions, seem to proceed in a natural way, consistent with the way real-world treaties and conflicts unfold and progress. I wish I could handle foreign relations with such facility in my own work.[/quote]So, are/were the dragons and orcs allied? That strikes me as strange on principle, and stranger in light of the dragons' association by Kaos with the positive/time elements, and orcs with the presumably opposed negative. How did that alliance happen?[/quote]Again, here's the conflict between East and West, and I'm still completely in the dark about the West, what it is, and how it came to be. Did I miss something obvious here, or is the West currently being portrayed as little more than a faceless villain? Not that it's necessarily a problem if it is, but I want to make sure my understanding of the situation is adequate, and the lack of detail in the west seems inconsistent with the huge amount of detail everywhere else.[/quote]I love the numerology in the calendar, and its associations drawn between weeks and forces, and between months and gods. This is clearly going to result in days where the day of the week matches elements with the element associated with the god of the current month. Do these overlaps have any sort of effect on timekeeping, superstition, religion, or prophecy?[/quote]Also, this is partly from last chapter as well, but it seems to me you're trying awfully hard to squeeze in more elven subraces than you really know what to do with. I can see that based on what you wrote about elven religions, Choices, and feuds, all of these subraces have to go somewhere... but it may be creating more problems than it solves; many of the elven subraces' lands are completely un-detailed, and even unnamed. Are they all truly necessary?[/quote]Again, I'd like to see more on the various schools of thought practiced by wizards in order to safeguard and control their magic. We get to see all about the various clerics' taboos in a previous chapter, but we see almost nothing of the wizards' philosophies (which I consider odd, since arguments over philosophies form the quotes you chose at the beginning of the introduction.)[/quote]For clerics, I really like the system of taboos, but really. A single infraction strips a cleric of all powers? That seems a little harsh, especially considering the nature of some of the taboos, and how hard it would be to avoid doing some of those things. I guess that's part of the point; making it tricky.[/quote]Does a ranger who fails to attack and kill his oath-specified enemy lose all his powers? Doesn't this compel rangers to get in over their heads in combat, practically all the time?[/quote]I should note that the average save DC for errators' higher-level spells is much lower than any other spellcasters': Int Mod + 1d20 makes spell save DCs average about equal for 0-level and 1st-level spells, but without adding the spell level, Errators have to roll a 19 or better to match the standard, constant save DC for a wizard's 9th level magic. Is that intentional?[/quote]the level of the spell[/i] and his Intelligence modifier to the result to determine the DC of the saving throw for that spell.â,¬Â The only changes to the normal save DCs are the extra randomness and the fact that the average base number is 10.5 rather than 10.

QuoteA question that occurred to me today: What has become of the Rods of Creation? They are all broken due to overexertion, right? Did they scatter fragments all over the place when they broke, like the Rod of Humanity did, and if so, are those fragments still floating around somewhere in the world?

The humans who had the shards of humanity's Rod took those shards with them when they ascended into godhood, right? If so, and if the shards of the other Rods are still around, couldn't anyone find a shard and become a god?

So, I just read and reviewed the entirety of Orden's Mysteries, all in one sitting.

Totally worth it.[/quote]I had to put up this quote here before it forever faded into obscurity in the 200 pages of text that is our websiteâ,¬,,¢s Tavern. Thanks!

Túrin