The result of chats between Nasty and myself. Nasty did most of the work, I just did formating, editing, and fine tuneing. Feedback greatly desired.
Demon Knight (http://www.thecbg.org/settings/19/DemonKnight.html)
I'd have to run it through my calculator, but I think you've managed to create a well balanced 20 level transformation class. I'm assuming the arcane blast is unlimited, like the eldritch blast? I may have to use your formula for determining arcane blast damage for my channeler class, it seems more reasonable for a warrior class.
Glad you like. Like I said, Nasty did most of the work. Yeah, it is unlimited.
I've decided after helping nasty with this class that Tranformation classes are happy, and very fun. :)
Think you could take a momment to help me with my channeler (sorcerer/barbarian who becomes an elemental)? My AIM is JAGXeviat.
Very cool class. A question though. Why wasn't the Evil subtype granted by the apothesis as well?
Quote from: ArnkelVery cool class. A question though. Why wasn't the Evil subtype granted by the apothesis as well?
It probably should be. Demonic blood should eventually have that effect on people...I didn't want to force alignments on people, but by level 20 when they complete the apothoesis it should be unavoidable. We'll probably update this; I just want to check with Xathan first.
-Nasty-
QuoteI didn't want to force alignments on people, but by level 20 when they complete the apothoesis it should be unavoidable.
just a note, the evil subtype has NO effect on alignment, just on how spells perceive alignment. so you could give someone the evil subtype without saying 'your character should totally be okay with killing puppies now'
(it's actually possible to have a paladin with the evil subtype, where detect evil and detect good both ping off the scale. the character would still have to be lawful good, but spells and other external effects wouldn't know that.)
Quote from: brainfaceQuoteI didn't want to force alignments on people, but by level 20 when they complete the apothoesis it should be unavoidable.
That's pretty interesting.
-Nasty-
Yeah, I forgot that about the evil subtype, and I really like it now. Nasty and I agree to add the subtype to the class, so it's in the rules now. :)
Are you sure your class is balanced with a full BAB? If I had to choose between your class and the fighter, I'd take your class every time, hands down.
Quote from: Epic_MeepoAre you sure the demon knight is balanced with a full BAB? If I had to choose between demon knight and fighter, unless I'm specifically interested in playing with sub-optimal feat combos, I'd take demon knight every time, hands down. It's like trading 11 fighter feats for a LA +3 template and half-a-dozen warlock levels. Would I trade 11 bonus feats for 9 extra levels? Hell, yeah.
In comparison to a fighter a Demon Knight is quite powerful, but in comparison to a wizard, cleric, or druid it is not. I think the Demon Knight is very strong for a combat based character; I pushed it to the limits of acceptability, but the goal was to make a warrior class comparable in power level to a wizard.
Does anybody even bother to play strait fighters now as it is? Fighter's already had the short end of the stick, long before I made the Demon Knight.
Fear not for the fighter however. I plan to make a few feat trees that will push them up a bit too. And I'm working on a class-based AC bonus (sort of like Unearthed Arcana) that will favor fighters heavily.
-Nasty-
QuoteDoes anybody even bother to play strait fighters now as it is?
i hear people say that a lot, but i don't think it's true. fighters are still the absolute best class if you have a combat trick you want to pull that requires lots of feats. Now, given, i don't have a large sample size, and that statement's probably less and less true the more prestige classes are allowed.
Quotei hear people say that a lot, but i don't think it's true. fighters are still the absolute best class if you have a combat trick you want to pull that requires lots of feats. Now, given, i don't have a large sample size, and that statement's probably less and less true the more prestige classes are allowed.
The bolded sentence hits the nail on the head. Fighters and their bonus feats are used more to squeeze in a combat trick, or get quicker entry into a PrC, than they are for just being fighters.
I play warrior classes all the time (well I did when I actually played D&D lol), and there was no reason to play a fighter beyond level 8 EVER. That's more than enough bonus feats to get what I wanted out of the class, and catapult me into something that actually did more than gain feats. In fact I rarely found that I needed more than 4 fighter levels.
I plan to remedy that.
-Nasty-
me, i'm blaming the
prestige classes. but you go ahead :D
QuoteFighters and their bonus feats are used more to squeeze in a combat trick
were[/i], combat trick guys, battlefield control, whatever. The fighter trips, disarms, tanks, whirlwinds, and runs over people.
What does this have to do with demon knights? very, very little. Except possibly 'don't give the demon knight a bunch of battlefield control abilities, cuz that's fighter turf.'(???)
QuoteAn arcane blast can be used in place of any normal ranged attack.
Spell-Like Abilities:[/quote]If the demon knight wasnâ,¬,,¢t evil before reaching her apotheosis, there is no turning back now; her alignment irrevocably changes to evil.[/quote]
you still leaving this in?
Quoteme, i'm blaming the prestige classes. but you go ahead
It's not PrCs. A fighter 10 / rogue 10 is better than a fighter 20, a fighter 10 / barbarian 10 is better than a fighter 20, and there are numerous other base classes that offer more. PrCs are not to blame for the lack of anything good to keep you in the fighter class at higher levels.
Quoteit was my understanding that that's what fighter's actually were, combat trick guys, battlefield control, whatever. The fighter trips, disarms, tanks, whirlwinds, and runs over people.
But being good at all of them is impossible, and specializing in one or two of these techniques doesn't require 20 levels.
QuoteWhat does this have to do with demon knights? very, very little. Except possibly 'don't give the demon knight a bunch of battlefield control abilities, cuz that's fighter turf.'(???)
It was brought up that with a class like the demon knight around nobody would play a fighter. I answered that nobody plays them anyway.
QuoteAn arcane blast can be used in place of any normal ranged attack.
iterative attacks??? should that be 'as a standard action', maybe?
Nope, that was intentional. Eldritch blast is weak, because it it does not deal more damage than a wizards spells, and by the time a wizard reaches mid levels they do not run out of spells during the standard four encounters per day; thus the warlock's unlimitted blasting power never comes into play.
This blast is comparable to wizard firepower, but lacks any of the versatility of spell-casting. There is no haste, or charm, or divination, and so on. Not to mention that blasting is significantly weaker against larger numers of enemies than an area of effect spell.
QuoteSpell-Like Abilities:
i'd really, really consider exchanging the 'effects only good creatures' spells with more generally useful ones, esp. if this class isn't limited to evil peeps. i know this guy is 'half fiend as a character class', but things like unholy blight lose a LOT of worth if used against non-evil creatures in a non-evil party.
I have no plans to change the spell-like abilities. Their heritage grants them bonuses against good creatures, if they choose to resist their demonic urges, and be good aligned that's an individual choice. This class turns you into a half-fiend, and I want the abilites and feel to reflect the template.
QuoteIf the demon knight wasnâ,¬,,¢t evil before reaching her apotheosis, there is no turning back now; her alignment irrevocably changes to evil.
you still leaving this in?
Yes. By the time he is fully change into a half-fiend, the demon knight has embraced what he is. If he wanted to stay pure and good, he would have opted out of the class long before level 20. The Demon Knight is made to be an evil class, and evil characters benefit most from the abilities. You can however start down the path of the demon knight class without realizing what it eventually leads to.
-Nasty-
P.S. this has a good mirror called the Divine Knight, that changes you into a Half-Celestial.
Quote from: brainfacei'd really, really consider exchanging the 'effects only good creatures' spells with more generally useful ones, esp. if this class isn't limited to evil peeps. i know this guy is 'half fiend as a character class', but things like unholy blight lose a LOT of worth if used against non-evil creatures in a non-evil party.
Here I'd disagree. If you tap the power of demonkind, you shouldn't expect it to help you as much if you are good as opposed to evil. That's the price you pay for being demon-like.
QuoteWhoa. Yeah, I'm with brainface on this one. Unlimited, iterative ranged touch attacks that deal multiple dice of damage are a bit crazy.
Well the damage is not as great as you might imagine it to be. Barbarians still deal about the same amount, as the demon knight, with little more than their rage class feature.
I could either reduce the damage dice (by say 1d6) or reduce the BAB to 3/4 progression, but I'm concerned the class then pales in comparison to the power 3 (wizard, cleric & druid) at that point.
-Nasty-
QuoteHere I'd disagree. If you tap the power of demonkind, you shouldn't expect it to help you as much if you are good as opposed to evil. That's the price you pay for being demon-like.
Well the damage is not as great as you might imagine it to be. Barbarians still deal about the same amount, as the demon knight, with little more than their rage class feature.[/quote]lot[/i], right?
(also, it's got SR applies. did you define a caster level fo r that? I'm guessing class level?)
Quoteit's a ranged touch attack, though. that's gonna hit a lot, right?(also, it's got SR applies. did you define a caster level fo r that? I'm guessing class level?)
Yes ranged touch, SR applies, and caster level equal to class level (can't believe I forgot to include that)
[spoiler=-Nasty-]PANTZ! :rambo: [/spoiler]
I'll add caster level to that: I can't believe I didn't catch that, lol.
Really, the iterative attacks aren't as overpowering as the look. At 20th level, it can deal out an almost sure to hit 10d6, maybe 15d6. That seems like a lot, but when you compare it to the wizard, or CoDzilla, it isn't doing squat.
As for them turning evil, I usually don't like it, but that fits perfectly with the flavor of what would happen in Thaedia, and really fits the class perfectly.
Nasty and I talked, and the demon knight now has its arcane blast as ranged attacks, not ranged touch attacks. :)
Quote from: Xathan, Last Of The FallenNasty and I talked, and the demon knight now has its arcane blast as ranged attacks, not ranged touch attacks. :)
That sounds a bit more reasonable.