The following is a new religion in Panisadore (and will be listed under Orders and Societies rather than deities) arising from the concept of churches (such as the Church of the True Sun) revering multiple deities much like the monastic and service orders. It shows a strong monastic influence, particularly the clerics, but doesn't produce any monks. While I'm clearly going primarily for a new flavor here, I want to be sure that the crunch supporting that flavor is still in balance in the various trade-offs among cleric abilities.
Lyricists, (a.k.a., 'Those Damn Poets' in regions where they are particularly active), Formally: Trinitarians
Symbol: spiral triskelion of red, blue and green on a white disk
Churches: Hebnaritath, Thelema
Membership: R, L
This is a relatively new religion which over the course of the last couple of centuries has drawn a modest following from among the various races equally in numerous walks of life. Surprisingly, this religion is of (reform) Drowen origin having first appeared with the exodus of small groups of drow clerics and their followers reaching the surface in a handful of locations. Also surprising to many is the evident influence of core dwarven spiritual concepts on its essential theological premise. This premise is certainly among the more sophisticated and abstract to evolve in the world to date.
At it's heart, Trinitarianism explicitly eschews the outright anthropomorphism of its deities although it reveres known deities normally portrayed anthropomorphically by the members of their original churches. Lyricists instead express the deities and their ethea rather allegorically in poetic terms, as Strophe, Antistrophe and Epode; referring to Shalireah, Hebnaritath and Thelema respectively as principles of creation and growth, death and decay, and balance and motion. (Shalireah they claim, is the original form of Shaliah and was the first associated with the red sun in the Ur-time.) These are further described as complimentary component expressions of a single, unified whole much like the various bands of color produced by the dispersion of white light. This unity however can only be comprehended through the contemplation and understanding of its separate forms of expression simultaneously (in/as trinity) and can only be described obliquely in poetic terms. (The contemplative process is usually referred to in such terms as, 'Watching the rainbow until it disappears,' and its culmination as 'seeing by the light of darkness without casting a shadow.')
Moral philosophers and theologians classify Trinitarianism as a True Neutral school. Lyricists do not bother to address the conventional concepts of good and evil or law and chaos at all, or if they do, their poetic metaphors have so far been completely lost upon their audience, passing over their heads entirely unnoticed. They do however exhibit a distinctive dedication to the metaphysical principles of balance and synthesis, either as a transcendent ideology or one predating the formulation of, and subsequently rejecting, the later moral conventions as the erroneous distinctions produced by misguided philosophical digressions. Prompting further debate among observers is whether their description of the trinity as Mother, Father and Child is meant as a literal familial relationship or a purely allegorical depiction. The fact that Thelema is both commonly accepted as the daughter of Salistreah and closely associated with Hebnaritath by pundits among the majority of abstract scholastic factions lends a great deal of credence to both the former theory and the growing consensus among scholars that the religion may indeed represent the survival and further evolution of a lost primeval Elven theology and cosmology. However, as with accepted moral conventions, Trinitarians ignore the issue entirely, evidently holding the question to be an irrelevance indicative of having missed the point entirely if you have to ask it.
Evidently a cultural trait which the religion has retained, Trinitarians demonstrate an aesthetic sensibility as an overriding value, the unaffected expression of which they view as indicative of the degree of one's understanding. While this can be displayed in any art form, (and is encouraged in treating all activities as art,) the most common, obvious, extensive, and to everyone else, maddeningly unintelligible, development of this is of course in lyric poetry. Lyric clerics of high degree are known to speak and write entirely in extemporaneous verse, effortlessly composing highly refined, if bewilderingly complex, sonnets, hymns, allegories, elegies and odes as well as the occasional epic narrative and (what among them evidently passes for) satire. They likewise treat personal combat and archery as art forms, the mastery of which is displayed with a breathtaking and deadly grace and elegance.* Trinitarian craftsmen are gradually gaining wide renown for producing utilitarian items of both exceeding beauty and no less than masterwork quality.
Beyond its metaphysical characteristics, in its training and practice the religion is incredibly monastic in both tone and form, in spite of the fact that it produces no monks. Contemplative and meditative practices are emphasized, particularly at the earliest stages, directed both inward and out. The result of this training is an unparalleled sensitivity and awareness among initiates with regard to both their own physicality and their surroundings. The most startling (and directly verifiable) effect of this is that (1st level) Lyric clerics, regardless of race, display the physical traits of both low-light and dark vision, without suffering any negative effects from exposure to bright light.
Upon initiation, Lyric clerics receive the following ability adjustments (in addition to any racial adjustments): WIS +2 due to their much heightened awareness, and CHR -2 due to their evident inability to express their insight (or much else of significance to them) coherently to anyone outside of their religion. This penalty is of course ignored in interactions with other Lyricists who (presumably) understand them. At 2nd level they have sufficiently integrated their insight to substitute their WIS bonus for their Dex bonus provided their DEX is no more than 4 points below their (now adjusted) WIS. If their DEX is at least 2 points higher than their Wisdom they may add the wisdom bonus to their DEX bonus. Physical circumstances which would cause them to lose their DEX bonus do not affect their WIS bonus. Their signature physical grace is a result of their deep awareness of their bodies and surroundings rather than an increased development of their physical reflexes and coordination. (They still must have some development of the latter to work with, else they are simply more acutely aware of their own clumsiness than before.) They are proficient in the use of light armors only and with bows and a single melee weapon as detailed below. Multi-classed clerics cannot gain more than the first level as a cleric without observing these weapon and armor restrictions. Additionally Lyric clerics treat Performance: Poetry, Performance: Dance and Tumbling as class skills. They have access to three domains, each indicative of one of the three deities they worship. They are not however able to cast additional spells from the domain spell lists each day. Further they cannot spontaneously cast Heal or Inflict spells. Instead, they can spontaneously cast any domain spell which they have access to. Lyric clerics are divided among four Cantos, each of which is represented by a distinct color. Each Canto has a specific set of Domains and an associated weapon as follows:
Canto: Strophe (Shalireah): Antistrophe (Hebnaritath): Epode(Thelema): Weapon:
Orange Creation Destruction Force Staff
Yellow Sun Darkness Balance Unarmed
Black Healing Death Fate Fencing blade
Purple Renewal Time Liberation Chain
N.B., as the substitution of their WIS bonus for their Dex bonus effectively provides them with the Uncanny Dodge Ability, Lyricists of the Black Canto gain Improved Uncanny Dodge as their Fate Domain ability.
The Light Cantos (Orange and Yellow) Turn Undead while the Dark Cantos (Black and Purple) Control them.
They gain Weapon Finesse with their chosen weapon at 1st level. At 5th they gain Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization at 10th, Greater Weapon Focus at 15th and Greater Weapon Specialization at 20th.[/color]
*A common Rimenoshan joke runs, 'Why do Lyricists master fencing? A: They have to.' Sadly, intentional dwarven humor is not known for it's sophistication and much to their dismay, dwarven comic bards are strongly encouraged by other races (especially halflings,) to 'just do what comes naturally. . .'
Crunchy sounds summon me! I'll get right to it:
QuoteUpon Initiation: WIS +2, CHR -2 (This penalty is of course ignored in interactions with other Lyricists who (presumably) understand them.)
2nd level: Substitute WIS bonus for Dex bonus provided their DEX is no more than 4 points below their (now adjusted) WIS. If their DEX is at least 2 points higher than their Wisdom they may add the wisdom bonus to their DEX bonus. Physical circumstances which would cause them to lose their DEX bonus do not affect their WIS bonus.[/quote]Proficient in the use of light armors only and with bows and a single melee weapon as detailed below.[/quote]Performance: Poetry, Performance: Dance and Tumbling as class skills.[/quote]Three domains.[/quote]No bonus domain spells.[/quote]Cannot spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells. Instead, they spontaneously cast their domain spells.[/quote]The Light Cantos (Orange and Yellow) Turn Undead while the Dark Cantos (Black and Purple) Control them.[/quote]They gain Weapon Finesse with their chosen weapon at 1st level. At 5th they gain Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization at 10th, Greater Weapon Focus at 15th and Greater Weapon Specialization at 20th.[/quote]
!!!? So ontop of everything they gained earlier, now they're gaining another 4 feats for free? On top of their domain abilities?
The only way I'm seeing to balance all of this is if you were to remove their access to anything domain; then these abilities would effectively be their domains.
I'm drinking right now.
So this may be less than perfect. But the 97 Pio Cesare is close to perfect.
I like the fact that as a new church, it draws from many races and walks of life. This seems to be in proper conjunction with where 'Pan-is-adored' is at right now. 'Those Damn Poets' is a great throw-away line. Gives the post a bit of early punch. The fact that a church is listed seperately is somewhat a drawcansir for you and a few others here. People make religions and churches, not gods. You know this better than most.
Similarly, the maturity of a religion that focuses on the aspects and attributes of the deities and less on their personalities ( I believe it what you champion and support, my worship is in your ethneate, not in your icon) is beyond what many settings reach, and as such, I enjoy it. I alos enjoy the 'understanding through poetry'. I have a few euterpean religions and aspects to Celtricia, so I enjoy analagous notions in other worlds.
[blockquote=S&M]Evidently a cultural trait which the religion has retained, Trinitarians demonstrate an aesthetic sensibility as an overriding value, the unaffected expression of which they view as indicative of the degree of one's understanding. While this can be displayed in any art form, (and is encouraged in treating all activities as art,) the most common, obvious, extensive, and to everyone else, maddeningly unintelligible, development of this is of course in lyric poetry. Lyric clerics of high degree are known to speak and write entirely in extemporaneous verse, effortlessly composing highly refined, if bewilderingly complex, sonnets, hymns, allegories, elegies and odes as well as the occasional epic narrative and (what among them evidently passes for) satire. [/blockquote] This was mainly good, though after reading it, I got the feeling that this was the best written part and much of the paragraph before was filler.
The monastic and contemplative viewpoint was great. I truly feel that this must have been written by someone who has a an advanced case of clerocognosis1. But in a good way. This religion is extremely well thought out and a discerning eye can see how it began and how it grew. I think it would make for a lot of fun in terms of gameplay, as well.
Kudos. 117 exp in theology, not that you need it.
The crunch I could care less about, only because it is d&d. I enjoy talking crunch and game design, but not within-game crunch. You have Cap'n Xeviat here, and he is as good as it gets with this anyways.
[spoiler= 1 ]
clerocognosis=Religion on the brain. And don't dare deny it, Biggus.
[/spoiler]
[note]Thx Kap'n - caught some things I hadn't thought of in this. Looking at the concept I'm trying to flesh out, I expect the clerics to be rather challenging to play, but I don't want to relegate them to an NPC only class should someone wish to.
[blockquote[Kap'n Xeviat]. . .Charisma is of little use to clerics (especially these clerics who seem more contemplative than evangelical). Additionally, the "this penalty is ignored ..." issue is an odd one; if they're focus lessens their social grace, then it would be a circumstantial penalty to Diplomacy and such, not an overall weakening of their Presence.[/blockquote]
Good point - outside of a balancing mechanic, the idea is that their Presence is less effective (implying elsewhere that it is even somewhat irritating to others outside the religion). Additional flavor writing will show there is an evangelical element, but it is certainly not a religious mandate to convert the clumsy masses. Perhaps leaving CHR unchanged but applying the WIS bonus as a circumstance penalty to any CHR based skills will accomplish this. The greater their insight into the mysteries, the more confusing they seem to others. My story style generates a great deal of interpersonal interaction (which also makes physical prowess somewhat less important in the overall scheme) so while clerics as a class (at least as portrayed in DnD) don't rely much on CHR based skills, etc., no one can really ignore the social necessities - characters must at least develop compensatory mechanisms to deal with their social ineptitude. (e.g., Low CHR characters may become "heavy tippers.") To address a later point now, the Perform skills, while adding flavor, are not meant to offer any character sheet advantage. To the contrary, I've been considering mandating their development to some extent e.g., tying BAB advancement to equivalent ranks in Perform: Dance (IAW the gnomoi proverb, "Never give a fan to a man who can't. . .") They don't learn to fight better until they learn to dance better. . . Your point that they may end up foregoing other skills helps somewhat in the overall balancing. Given the religion's contemplative emphasis, dumping Concentration should not be an option, nor Knowledge: Religion. I'll have to think about how to prevent this - I would prefer not to simply establish a lot of minimums. Tumbling of course to a monk-like, finesse favoring class not only makes flavor sense but does offer some advantage. Regardless, I was considering not including it and think I'll delete it, esp. in light of the advantage to the skill already given via the WIS bonus to it.
QuoteWis for Des means Wis to hit (since they get weapon finesse) with melee and ranged, Wis to Reflex, Wis to a lot of skills (most are useless to clerics, though), and worse Wis to AC. This is worth at least 3 feats, based on the X as Y feats from many sources. You're also giving Uncanny Dodge, which is worth another feat. I won't even touch the "if their dex is 2 points higher" issue, because that will lead to very broken characters (I would actually try to get an 18 Dex and a 16 Wis, and it would create a situation where a cleric wouldn't want a +2 Wisdom item as it would actually weaken them in this situation).
The direct substitutions (when the bonus is used) are intended. Their fighting skills arise from their awareness rather than physical abilities. However, the point about adding WIS to the higher DEX is an effect that I had missed. This another place where I'm thinking of just a min requirement, as the WIS -4 restriction (intended to prevent DEX from becoming a dump stat) can take away previous use of the substitution if WIS is later raised to DEX +5, which makes no sense. Given both I'm going to kill the high DEX + WIS mechanic - simply allowing high DEX characters to choose which bonus to use in a given situation. Since Uncanny Dodge is not an explicit class feature, anything negating the DEX bonus will in such cases default to the lower Wis bonus. I don't know which 3 feats you're referring to that the substitution would effectively provide for free, they may be from sources I'm unfamiliar with as I can't find any in the PHB, so I can't judge the effects they would have on the balance.
QuoteLoosing heavy armor, medium armor, and shields is a penalty, but not that much. You've given them access to an easy source of AC, so light armor will be fine once they get their Wisdom bonus higher (or potentially their combined Wisdom and Dexterity bonuses). But whatever penalty the armor restrictions have is eliminated by their access to several martial weapons (bows and one melee). I would have considered this a drawback, but not with the weapon issue.
I'm going to kill the light armor proficiency. You're right about the source of AC, intended as similar to a monk's but nowhere near as high in the absence of the Bonus + Bonus Class Feature. Since their bonus doesn't derive from physical development, it's better to rule, like monks who do include physical development, that it is unusable when wearing any armor (even those that doesn't impose an Armor Check Penalty). The weapon proficiency I view as a severe drawback as they are
only proficient with a single specific melee weapon, which is included in the all weapon proficiencies of other clerics. Further, they cannot utilize weapon proficiencies provided by other (multi-) classes. Given some subsequent changes I haven't gotten to yet, I am making the Ability substitution a 1st level benefit but keeping the weapon/armor restrictions in place.
They receive all three, locked in as specific triads. They do gain all 3 domain powers. The spontaneity is pretty strong even without receiving as many spells per day as other clerics of the same level. I think this can be reined in significantly by further limiting the number of times per day they can use the spontaneous domain spell casting to the number of additional spells per day cast by a regular cleric: once a day at 1st level and an additional instance every two levels thereafter.
I don't expect them to particularly care about Turning/Controling Undead either and almost eliminated the ability to do so. Still might. . .
Finally,
Quote!!!? So ontop of everything they gained earlier, now they're gaining another 4 feats for free? On top of their domain abilities?
The only way I'm seeing to balance all of this is if you were to remove their access to anything domain; then these abilities would effectively be their domains.
Major change to make here. My original intention was to permit access to the 3 fighter feats but preventing them from taking them very quickly. Initially I didn't see a way of creating the pace restriction until I looked again at the feats themselves. They can learn the feats, but no freebies. Looking at the prerequisites of the feats, by substituting BAB for fighter level (which are numerically equivalent for a fighter) they would be unable to take Finesse or Focus until 2nd level (this isn't a freebie either), Specialization until 6th, Greater Focus at 11th and Greater Specialization until 16th anyway. Additionally, in order to meet the prerequisites they have to have taken the equivalent number of ranks in Dance. I think this accomplishes my intention very well.
Summary:
Pros:
Ability increase - WIS
WIS substitution for DEX which is not lost when DEX would be.
Better To Hit and unarmored AC
2 additional class skills
1 additional Domain ability
Spontaneous Domain spell casting
Access to 3 fighter feats if prerequisites are met
Cons:
Skill prerequisite for BAB advancement.
DEX minimum to take advantage of WIS bonuses (13?)
No armor
Only 1 melee weapon
Fewer spells per day
Spontaneous spell casting limited per day
Loss of Turning?
I think you'd be much, much better off building this as a PrC. I'm not a fan of "kits", as they were in 2E (classes had variants that players could choose to severely min/max; this allows players to have lowish dex and very low charisma).
A PrC would be much easier to balance.
As for the feats I'm referring to, I'm mostly looking at the Weapon Finesse precedence: Dex instead of Str to hit. In Complete Adventurer (or was it Complete Scoundrel) they had others, such as Str to hit instead of Dex with thrown weapons, Cha to Will instead of Wis vs. Enchantments, Int to Open Locks instead of Dex ... the list goes on and on. The precedence set is that swapping one ability for another for one specific use is worth a feat. I was analyzing what you've offered in a ratio of feats gained to feats lost, as far as comparing equivalent abilities.
In your new one, you've effectively got this:
Pros:
+2 Wis: 2 feats
Wis subbed for Dex: 4 feats (to hit, reflex, skills/initiative, AC)
1 additional domain ability: 1 feat
Spontaneous Domain spell casting: 3 feats (one for each domain, this is a feat in one of the books somewhere, I think Epic)
Access to fighter feats: negligible, but generally a no-no.
Better to hit: ? How better, I don't recall what you said.
Cons:
Perform skill prereq for BAB: Negligible; skills are cheeper than BAB, and if it's a straight 1 for 1 you'll end up with someone with +4 BAB at first level; thus, it isn't a Con.
Dex minimum: Negligible; it is a price players will be willing to pay; if the amount is too low, it costs nothing, if it's too high, then the Wis ability is worthless anyway.
No Armor: Negligible with the AC bonus, but it is worth at least one feat for the loss of armor proficiencies.
Only 1 melee weapon: Only one weapon, but it's martial. Weapon variety isn't worth that much, as players tend to stick with what they wanted their character to have anyway.
Fewer spells: a loss of 1 spell per spell level, one that normally could only be chosen from 2 spells, is perhaps worth a feat (as only the couple highest level spells are really useful in most games at a time).
Spontaneous casting limited: How limited?
Loss of Turning: potentially negligible.
I can help you with a PrC if you'd like.
I'm not sure that some of the feat comparisons have much to offer - that is some feats are not worth taking in purely crunch terms. Most of the substitution feats seek to compensate for a very low stat by using a high one in it's place - and can turn a penalty on the action into a bonus. I want to keep DEX fairly high,(and so far am considering min 13) so the substitution is only increasing a slight bonus to a better one rather than replacing a penalty - and in skills the benefit is pretty much given to cross-class skills which a cleric is unlikely to put any skill points into unless they've got a good INT bonus. Yes, the cost of having a DEX min should be one players would be willing to take - that statement is true of any cost trade-off in any class, otherwise no one will play the class. . . My mentioning Better to hit in pros is a redundant statement referring to the effect of swapping WIS for DEX, once Weapon Finesse is taken (no longer a freebie). This cant be done until the BAB goes up at 2nd level. The Perform:Dance prereq. is only that - they never get a higher BAB than other clerics. To the contrary, they don't gain the BAB that other clerics do unless they have put the same number of skill points in P:D - A 5th level cleric w/only 1 rank in Dance only has a BAB of +1. This likewise spills over into accessing the fighter weapons feat chain, the cleric loses the opportunity to utilize further advantages when foregoing the skill spending. . . Again, that restricts clerics w/out high INT (traded off for something else - essentially STR or CON) since the progression amounts to spending 1 skill point every other level, or 25% of their new points if they didn't pad this up a little during creation. A rogue wouldn't care about having to spend 1 out of 16 points, but this is restricting to a cleric.
The AC is not going to be significant since with no armor it is only the ability bonus - a cleric w/18 WIS only has an AC 14 and without using some feats, etc. for defense has little option of improving it w/out magic (and the DEX score requirements for the 2 Weapon feat chain most likely to assist them in defense has not been removed). 1 martial weapon vs all martial weapons I think is a big difference, esp. since that 1 weapon is not an extremely powerful one (not a crappy one either, but not great) - while characters tend to stick to only a couple of weapons, they will usually go with more than one simply because of damage type, and will gladly trade out their primary weapon for a magical (or more magical) weapon of another type. Except for rapiers, you're not likely to ever even see a magical version of the weapon they use, and enchanted rapiers aren't exactly common either.
The spontaneous casting is limited to the number of times per day = the number of domain spells a regular cleric would be able to cast in a day, i.e. once at 1st level, twice at 3rd, etc. A normal 5th level cleric w/WIS 17 would be casting 12 spells a day and could choose to spontaneously cast 12 Heal spells in a day, while as a Lyricist they would be casting 9 per day and can only spontaneously cast for 3 of them. Ultimately I think this balances out the give and take in the spell repertoire.
I didn't list it in the summary, but rather than penalizing CHR I applied the WIS bonus to CHR based skills as a penalty - WIS 17 and CHR 15 nets a -1 mod. to those skills. The nature of their WIS development is such that it makes them remarkably better at some things than most, but also makes them worse at some others. In social situations they come across as just to damn weird and the more they develop themselves the weirder they get. . .
Loss of turning, I agree, is a rather negligible issue to them. Their cultural history is such that originally Turn/Control actually mattered a lot. The Drow of Panisadore don't worship Lolth, they worship Gaurashiage. While she has some characteristics of Lolth (and in a multi-setting overarching cosmology would generally be equated with her), the Mother of Abominations is much more powerful. Unlike her sister Dashin, she cannot create life, only twist and pervert it - the undead are her purview and the Drow are potent necromancers. A Drow splinter group would have had to be able to deal very effectively with this for survival, Hebnaritath's domain of Death (rather than the more common Repose) still reflects this. However, since arriving at the surface this has gradually lost it's significance in the religion, and has been further diluted by the influx of other races who did not grow up hiding their beliefs in an enclosed city practically crawling with undead. . .
Balance here may not be perfect, but I'm essentially trying to avoid broken - and the way my game and setting is focused toward the role playing aspects, mechanical benefits, particularly combat oriented, aren't quite as helpful in play as in many settings. Anyway, still mulling. . . much thanks for the input.