Starcraft: Saga Edition (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1029105)
A conversion in progress, by Destrieth and YellowKnight (WickedTroll).
Looking for input. :D
Are you using the same SAGA edition that WotC released for Star Wars?
That is correct. Of course, some things are changed, such as weapon damages - a lot of the standard blasters and such in the Star Wars setting did three dice of damage, for example, and when I wrote up the Terran weapons last night, I changed that to two with the exception of the Perdition Flamethrower and BOSUN FN92 Sniper Rifle. We're trying to incorporate as much of the Star Wars material as possible. :D
Well, switching it to 2 dice is actually correct for bullets; 3 dice are blasters in Star Wars, 2 dice are slugs.
I have one player who is a big Starcraft fan in my games. He loves playing Zerg. I know you're sticking with cannon, so creating your own Zerg race would be mostly out of the question, but I do know that having the option to play some kind of individual Zerg would be interesting to him.
I, on the other hand, agree with you guys and think Zerg should be antagonists only. The RPG would be about the Humans and Protoss fighting the Zerg while dealing with each other as well.
The only reasonable game in which being zerg is good is as a cerebrate. But that's more of a war game than an RPG, so you might as well just play SC.
We are (or rather, I am pushing) for an Infested Template to be done at some time. It'd be nice to have this as an option, but it's not at the top of the list, and it'd likely turn into a "zomg so much cooler than normal" situation, like ECL'd races tend to be over PHB races in D&D 3.0/3.5.
Try using these guidlines:
Infested Terran, Classic:
1d6 HDxCR, good saves: ref & will, BAB: as wizard
Skills: Listen, Hide (Burrow), plus any two technical skills
Move: 40ft land, 5ft (burrow)
Abilitiy Scores: STR? DEX 18, CON 18, INT 6, WIS 14, CHA 10
decent AC (maintains 30% miss chance against same level warriors)
immune to fear, immune to diplomancy
Moves as close as possible to enemies, when within melee reach or near death will explode on its turn. 3d6 damage/CR, Ref (DC14+1/2HD+CONmod) for half damage, close range area affect (25ft+5ftx1/2HD)
This is a closet troll. In hides in a closet (burrowed) 'till it hears an enemy (telepathic link to allies) then pops out and and tries to gank enemies with a suicidal attack.
Infested Terran, Warrior
1d10HD/CR, good saves: will, BAB: as fighter
Skills: Listen, Hide (Burrow), plus any two technical skills
Move: 40ft land, 5ft (burrow)
Abilitiy Scores: STR 18 DEX 18, CON 18, INT 6, WIS 14, CHA 10
Good AC (maintains 50% miss chance against same level warriors)
immune to fear, immune to diplomancy
uses the same weapon as a human space marine of the same level. Actually, the combat effectiveness should be identical, save for the ability to ambush better.
Interesting.
However, I'd have a comment to make. Protoss are most likely not medium sized. The zealot is stated with a height of 3m (which is just around 10ft). There was also a cinematic that didn't make it into the game, showing Protoss and Terrans fighting within some kind of spaceship or -station. The zealot had to bow down, and yet the marines were still looking up on them.
I'd just make the Protoss to use the "large" size category, however with a racial trait so that they only have 5ft reach. This way, I think it balances out nicely, as the primary benefit of large size is usually increased melee range - which is not given in this case.
Destrieth and I went over that in a fairly lengthy discussion. He decided in the end that he wanted to keep them Medium-sized just so they wouldn't take up a 4-by-4 square, even though for all purposes they should be Large - I even went so far as to pull up the D&D Ogre block and let him know that ogres were the same height and were Large size. If it comes to it that it does need changing when/if we do playtesting, I'll make sure it gets done. :D
Quote from: Ra-TielInteresting.
However, I'd have a comment to make. Protoss are most likely not medium sized. The zealot is stated with a height of 3m (which is just around 10ft). There was also a cinematic that didn't make it into the game, showing Protoss and Terrans fighting within some kind of spaceship or -station. The zealot had to bow down, and yet the marines were still looking up on them.
I'd just make the Protoss to use the "large" size category, however with a racial trait so that they only have 5ft reach. This way, I think it balances out nicely, as the primary benefit of large size is usually increased melee range - which is not given in this case.
What? I disagree. If you're a zealot, or a DT, you fight by stabbing things with energy swords. Almost every thing else has
GUNS and
PROTON RIFFLES and other methods of killing things before seeing the glow of your eyes. Having to move 5ft less to hit someone is a pittance of a problem.
If you're worried about other, smaller characters having trouble getting into melee range, don't be. Any self respecting meleeist knows to dodge and weave and hop about in manner so as to avoid creating an opening. 5ft steps and use of the tumble skills cover everything you need to get around AoO. The only type of characters that wont be doing that are dudes with guns (who will try to avoid melee), non-combative civilians (who will run
away as soon as anything threatening apears), and zerglings (which are
supposed to show up in large numbers and die in large numbers.)
Being large doesn't exclude you from entering areas designed for medium creatures. You have to duck down, but you don't need to make a special door (you might want to anyway). The only spaces you will have trouble getting into are human ventilation ducts, which you either want to send a probe in, or ignore completely and simply make a special door. You have a +8 to STR, two lazer swords and a forcefield. Making a new door isn't an issue.
Quote from: the_takenWhat? I disagree. If you're a zealot, or a DT, you fight by stabbing things with energy swords. Almost every thing else has GUNS and PROTON RIFFLES and other methods of killing things before seeing the glow of your eyes. Having to move 5ft less to hit someone is a pittance of a problem.
If you're worried about other, smaller characters having trouble getting into melee range, don't be. Any self respecting meleeist knows to dodge and weave and hop about in manner so as to avoid creating an opening. 5ft steps and use of the tumble skills cover everything you need to get around AoO. The only type of characters that wont be doing that are dudes with guns (who will try to avoid melee), non-combative civilians (who will run away as soon as anything threatening apears), and zerglings (which are supposed to show up in large numbers and die in large numbers.)
Being large doesn't exclude you from entering areas designed for medium creatures. You have to duck down, but you don't need to make a special door (you might want to anyway). The only spaces you will have trouble getting into are human ventilation ducts, which you either want to send a probe in, or ignore completely and simply make a special door. You have a +8 to STR, two lazer swords and a forcefield. Making a new door isn't an issue.
The point is not to just transfer the race from the RTS into PnP, but to do so while both staying true to its background
and keeping it balanced. I know, if you only go by what you know from the cutscenes and stories, Protoss should definitively get +8 to all abilities, +4 to all saves, large size, +8 to all skills, manifest like a level 9 psion, and have a psychic shield based off
vigor as a psi-like ability like 20 times per day. But that's neither fun (at least for the other players) nor balanced (in any sense of the word).
So, if you strip away all that fanboy madness (which I was guilty of in my earlier years too, I shamefully admit ;) ), what remains of the Protoss? They are:
* large
* psychic
* a bit smarter than the humans.
How could you transfer that into a balanced race?
According to Savage Species (yes, I
am aware of that book's dubious reputation) large size alone is worth +1 LA. The main benefit from being of large size is the 10ft reach, which completely eliminates the chance of an medium sized opponent (which most adversaries probably would be, considering humanoids) getting into melee range or withdrawing from you without suffering an AoO. This alone is extremely powerful and useful for a melee build (hint: Improved Trip + Trip attempt as your AoO). The added modifiers (like better carrying capacity) is just icing on the cake. So, if you took away that primary benefit from the large size, you could stay true to the background (like being 10ft tall) without giving away huge benefits for free. Dependent on how that racial improvement stuff works in 4e, you could also make it so that at 8th level or somesuch the character gains the full 10ft reach.
Now, on to the psychic stuff. In the game's background it says that Protoss warriors could create impenetratable barriers. Well, that would be quite unsuitable for a PnP game. The best next thing would be to give them a psi-like ability 1/day that allows them to manifest
force screen. Again, it goes well with the race's fluff (as a high AC is basically DR 1,000,000,000/-) while not breaking the game. Their telepathy stuff could be emulated with a telepathy racial trait, but restriced to 100ft and with other Protoss only. To communicate with other, non-Protoss, beings, they'd have to use some sort of "vocalizer" that translates their telepathic communication into sound.
Finally, they are shown to be a bit smarter than humans. There's always an argument if Protoss shouldn't receive a Wis penalty (due to them being so an*l about tradition and the Conclave being stubborn like a mule), but I don't think that's necessary. In my opinion, a simple +2 Int bonus would suffice. Actually, you could always give them a racial bonus to a single Knowledge or Craft skill to represent their "uberleetness" in that field. ;)
So, in my eyes a very well balanced Protoss race would look like this:
* large
* humanoid
* 1/day: force screen
* +2 Int
* +4 racial bonus to one Knowledge skill
* telepathy 100ft, with Protoss only
Quote from: Ra-TielThe point is not to just transfer the race from the RTS into PnP, but to do so while both staying true to its background and keeping it balanced. I know, if you only go by what you know from the cutscenes and stories, Protoss should definitively get +8 to all abilities, +4 to all saves, large size, +8 to all skills, manifest like a level 9 psion, and have a psychic shield based off vigor as a psi-like ability like 20 times per day. But that's neither fun (at least for the other players) nor balanced (in any sense of the word).
That is a very nice display of fanboism. You really should nurture that part of yourself. Temper it with reason, but don't neglect it.
QuoteSo, if you strip away all that fanboy madness (which I was guilty of in my earlier years too, I shamefully admit ;) ), what remains of the Protoss? They are:
* large
* psychic
* a bit smarter than the humans.
How could you transfer that into a balanced race?
OK. First off, psychic is very vague. We need to know exactly what kind of abilities Protoss are packing. Just saying they're psychic isn't enough.
Second. A character must have abilities XYZ at level A with a variance of B on C. To contribute to combat at Lvl12, you must be able to contribute as a twelfth level character. Anything in your fan boy rant could very well be apropriate.
QuoteAccording to Savage Species (yes, I am aware of that book's dubious reputation) large size alone is worth +1 LA. The main benefit from being of large size is the 10ft reach, which completely eliminates the chance of an medium sized opponent (which most adversaries probably would be, considering humanoids) getting into melee range or withdrawing from you without suffering an AoO. This alone is extremely powerful and useful for a melee build (hint: Improved Trip + Trip attempt as your AoO). The added modifiers (like better carrying capacity) is just icing on the cake. So, if you took away that primary benefit from the large size, you could stay true to the background (like being 10ft tall) without giving away huge benefits for free. Dependent on how that racial improvement stuff works in 4e, you could also make it so that at 8th level or somesuch the character gains the full 10ft reach.
Do not bring up ECL and LA. That system of measuring character power is bad.
Do not bring up 4E. We are no making the Starcraft version of the 4E board game. We are making Starcraft SAGA.
QuoteNow, on to the psychic stuff. In the game's background it says that Protoss warriors could create impenetratable barriers. Well, that would be quite unsuitable for a PnP game.
Say WHAT?!? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm)
You can put anything you want in a game you are creating. You must maintain a level of internal consistency, and your game has to be playable (liked), but really, don't say "You can't do that." without a very good reason.
QuoteTheir telepathy stuff could be emulated with a telepathy racial trait, but restriced to 100ft and with other Protoss only. To communicate with other, non-Protoss, beings, they'd have to use some sort of "vocalizer" that translates their telepathic communication into sound.
Flavour text. I advise that if you're intent is to have toss PCs and ran PCs in the same group, hand out the vocalizer for free.
QuoteFinally, they are shown to be a bit smarter than humans. There's always an argument if Protoss shouldn't receive a Wis penalty (due to them being so an*l about tradition and the Conclave being stubborn like a mule), but I don't think that's necessary. In my opinion, a simple +2 Int bonus would suffice. Actually, you could always give them a racial bonus to a single Knowledge or Craft skill to represent their "uberleetness" in that field. ;)
+2 INT is okay.
QuoteSo, in my eyes a very well balanced Protoss race would look like this:
* large
* humanoid
* 1/day: force screen
* +2 Int
* +4 racial bonus to one Knowledge skill
* telepathy 100ft, with Protoss only
If I asked to be a Protoss, and you gave me this, I would cry.
What you have to understand is that no Protoss is equal to a human. They are in all ways superior. They are very big, very smart, and very old. The typical zealot has an age measured with three digits. He's spent decades training his mind and body to levels for which no human could ever hope to achieve. A Protoss being a level one character is, frankly, insulting.
A zealot is a hardcore warrior. Without his forcefield, he can take a direct hit from a siege tank's artillery cannon. And that's badass.
Humans marines come in large numbers. Zerglings come in
very large numbers. Protoss do not. While you can argue that you can half as many zealots as marines with the same resources, that's RTS mechanics run amok. You're forgetting the investment in time and resources from the flavour text. It can take upwards of 15 to 30 years to get one marine, and a few months training and brainwashing. A zealot takes centuries to create. So while you can have zealots show up
in numbers, any amount of humans produced during the same amount of time are generated at a faster rate and add to their population at a much more frequent interest rate.
Basically, the Protoss are like giants in D&D. They come in very small numbers, but they are absolutely incredible when compared to a normal human.
Quote from: the_takenThat is a very nice display of fanboism. You really should nurture that part of yourself. Temper it with reason, but don't neglect it.
I was being ironic. :-| :P
Quote from: the_takenOK. First off, psychic is very vague. We need to know exactly what kind of abilities Protoss are packing. Just saying they're psychic isn't enough.
The abilities Protoss are described to have are very vague themselves. Their psychic weaponry and shields are actually a function of technology merged with psychic science, rather than psionically alone in nature (otherwise drones and buildings wouldn't have shields). The zealots have no direct abilities in themselves. The templar can evoke a powerful psionic storm and create holograms. The arbiter crews can make something similar to a wormhole, and distort the space-time continuum to freeze enemies in their tracks or wrap allies in a protective shell. The dark templar can remove themselves from their enemies' perception.
But now consider the things that are not described in detail. How is the essence of a fallen warrior transferred into a dragoon exoskeletton? What is involved in the ritual that is performed to remove a protoss' bond from his people, cutting his nerves, and making him a dark templar? There are countless apparently "psychic" rituals and actions that are never described at all.
Quote from: the_takenSecond. A character must have abilities XYZ at level A with a variance of B on C. To contribute to combat at Lvl12, you must be able to contribute as a twelfth level character. Anything in your fan boy rant could very well be apropriate...
...if balanced against the other races on a
mechanical basis and not on what is somewhere said about the race what it should have.
Quote from: the_takenDo not bring up ECL and LA. That system of measuring character power is bad.
But it was an attempt of balancing racial powers against powers gained from advancing in a class. While failing horribly in its actual implementation, it was attempting a stab in the right direction.
Quote from: the_takenDo not bring up 4E. We are no making the Starcraft version of the 4E board game. We are making Starcraft SAGA.
Now, 4e is already a board game? :?:
Quote from: the_takenSay WHAT?!? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm)
First, a
wall of force is
NOT indestructable. There are ways around it. The shields mentioned in the protoss background story are described as "impenetratable to any sort of attack for as long as the protoss concentrated".
Second,
wall of force is balanced on the basic principal of equality. The barrier is impenetratable to the enemy, just as it is impenetratable to yourself. Just as an enemy on the other side of the wall cannot harm you, you cannot harm the enemy. To be honest, I'd never use a "defensive" ability that takes me completely out of the fight.
Wall of force is a utility spell, not something to be used as a defensive means in combat.
Third,
wall of force is
magic. :P ;)
Fourth, let's imagine you did give protoss characters a racial ability to create a badass shield around themselves. Depending on how you implement this shield, it has two possible outcomes. (a): it's utterly useless because it works both ways, thus effectively taking the character out of the fight for as long as he turtles behind it. (b): it's horribly broken because it allows the character to basically ignore everything the enemies throw at him, giving him the equivalent of a godmode cheat.
Quote from: the_takenYou can put anything you want in a game you are creating. You must maintain a level of internal consistency, and your game has to be playable (liked), but really, don't say "You can't do that." without a very good reason.
And this very good reason is balance among all available races. Of course, you can make the available races "human, as in the PHB" and "megauberleet protoss with a crapload of abilities for free". But seriously, I wouldn't expect the humans to get taken that often, when a protoss of presumably the same power level can singlehandedly steamroll an encounter that would wipe out a party of five humans 4 levels higher than the protoss.
Quote from: the_takenFlavour text. I advise that if you're intent is to have toss PCs and ran PCs in the same group, hand out the vocalizer for free.
Now you do intend to have human and protoss PCs in the same party. Then your approach just won't work, because of the point I mentioned right above. If protoss are superior in any regard, flavorwise, mechanicswise, equipmentwise, then why should anyone ever want to play a human that gets facer*ped by any other race in the setting?
Quote from: the_taken+2 INT is okay.
Finally something we can agree on. :)
Quote from: the_takenIf I asked to be a Protoss, and you gave me this, I would cry.
Why? Because it doesn't have the mega pwn abilities?
Quote from: the_takenWhat you have to understand is that no Protoss is equal to a human. They are in all ways superior. They are very big, very smart, and very old. The typical zealot has an age measured with three digits. He's spent decades training his mind and body to levels for which no human could ever hope to achieve. A Protoss being a level one character is, frankly, insulting.
Yes, and a protoss' power comes with
learning, not with birth. Tassadar was deemed too young and
inexperienced with his onehundred fifty something years. And a higher age - and thus more power - simply means a higher level in game terms. When we look at level 1, however, a protoss character will just be on the same level of noobness as a human character.
Quote from: the_takenA zealot is a hardcore warrior. Without his forcefield, he can take a direct hit from a siege tank's artillery cannon. And that's badass.
Yes. But zealots are pretty likely
not level 1 warriors, but rather something like level 10 with appropriate equipment. A level 10 human fighter in DnD can also take a direct hit from a ballista, which is also quite badass. ;)
Quote from: the_takenHumans marines come in large numbers. Zerglings come in very large numbers. Protoss do not. While you can argue that you can half as many zealots as marines with the same resources, that's RTS mechanics run amok. You're forgetting the investment in time and resources from the flavour text. It can take upwards of 15 to 30 years to get one marine, and a few months training and brainwashing. A zealot takes centuries to create. So while you can have zealots show up in numbers, any amount of humans produced during the same amount of time are generated at a faster rate and add to their population at a much more frequent interest rate.
And what do you want to tell me with that? I know that protoss suffer from "the elf problem".
Quote from: the_takenBasically, the Protoss are like giants in D&D. They come in very small numbers, but they are absolutely incredible when compared to a normal human.
No. The protoss are more like an organization of highlevel wizards in a setting like Forgotten Realms (like say, the War Wizards of Cormyr, or the Red Wizards of Thay). They
are badass and can wipe the floor so hard with you, you seriously do not want to piss them off. However, it takes decades (or even centuries) for a member to reach such a position and personal power, and every loss is a hard blow to the whole group.
The RTS vs RPG thing just doesn't work - this can be proved in the strength and size of a battlecruiser, which wouldn't even be able to target a marine individually with its own armament unless said marine happened to be standing in front of a point-defense weapon, in the way of a Yamato blast bombardment, or attacked by a smaller fighter dispatched from the battlecruiser's small force.
As was said before, the Protoss were made medium-sized to evade dealing with the traits from being Large.
I also noticed a discussion about communication in there somewhere - Protoss don't have mouths, they use telepathy.
You can find deeper explanations on most things discussed here on the Starcraft Wiki.
Troll mentioned he posted a thread here to get some critiques and my curiosity got the best of me so I decided to make an account so I can reply face-to-face...
First of all, I appreciate your... how to put this... 'zeal' in contributions and discussing... however, we don't need/want your contributions, as some of the posts have already demonstrated a distinct lack of understanding of Saga's design philosophy. Not to name a specific example, but per/day powers are gone.
Secondly, my philosophy with this project is to stay as true to the Saga rule set as closely as possible. If it isn't broke, don't fix it, and if there's a conflict between the rules and the Starcraft fluff... the fluff is getting rewritten or omitted.
Thirdly, the Zerg. There are perfectly good Beast rules in the back which will handle 95% of all Zerg out there. The remaining 5% (infested) will probably be handled through some special rules, as Templates are a sticky thing and aren't terribly present in the Saga rule set as of yet (save for Starships of the Galaxy). My aim with this is to give a playable game for the 'basic' assumption of fighting the Zerg, so they will be made as antagonists, and special cases can be handled on a per-GM basis.
And finally... the Protoss. Several people in fact have argued for Large sized protoss. This is inimical to Saga's design philosophy of streamlined play. Making a PC race large size means you have to tweak their modifiers for the size, and if you want to maintain their feel as PCs, limit their range. This is pointless and easier solved by just making them Medium size like every other PC race in the Star Wars book and leaving it at that. One square is roughly equivalent to a two meter / 5 foot space, and 25 square feet is a pretty big space to occupy and does not stretch my imagination to think that even a larger creature like a Protoss can fight comfortably in this space. And, since I am doing the work... my interpretation stands. Feel free to create your own, though.
Quote from: destriethTroll mentioned he posted a thread here to get some critiques and my curiosity got the best of me so I decided to make an account so I can reply face-to-face...
Welcome to the CBG!
Quote from: destriethFirst of all, I appreciate your... how to put this... 'zeal' in contributions and discussing... however, we don't need/want your contributions, as some of the posts have already demonstrated a distinct lack of understanding of Saga's design philosophy. Not to name a specific example, but per/day powers are gone.
Ok, then I'll just stfu and make a note to myself to never ever again offer my suggestion and comments to either you, the_taken, or WickedTroll. If you don't want comments, why the hell did you make a thread asking about them? :-/
Quote from: destriethSecondly, my philosophy with this project is to stay as true to the Saga rule set as closely as possible. If it isn't broke, don't fix it, and if there's a conflict between the rules and the Starcraft fluff... the fluff is getting rewritten or omitted. [...]
As my final comment in this thread, let me explain my disagreement with this statement. I'd rather have a game that stays true to a setting's background, instead of leaving out or modifying fluff in blind adherence to a set of rules that wasn't even designed to handle such a setting in the first place.
Well, it's one thing to offer suggestion and comments and another to launch into a tangential debate about 4e and infested Terran statblocks and calling each other fanboys.
Also, you seemed to have taken my exaggeration a little too seriously. There has been no conflict with the fluff that the rules are absolutely incapable of handling. I was simply using a little hyperbole to say that a fun, streamlined experience is Saga's design goal, and not something I am going to compromise for anything. I seriously doubt it's going to come to a situation where the rules are holding the fluff at gunpoint suggesting "It's him or me man, HIM OR ME!" :)
As for looking for input, when we want input we want it on game balance and consistency issues, not comments in the vein of 'this is how I would do it better.'