Well, since Stargate is working out some ideas for an alternate magic system, I thought I'd play around with my ideas too.
The World
No discussion of magic can really be separated from the type of world that will contain that magic. Here are some of the basic concepts that are related to my idea of magic:
Planes: The aether is a limitless, featureless void. It does nothing, has no properties, except for containing everything that exists. Everything that exists consists of two fundamental things, essence and spirit. Think of essence as matter and things, and spirit as will and consciousness. Essence is not uniformly distributed in the aether, but drawn together in various clumps, which you might think of as equivalent to the 'planes' of standard D&D. Travel between planes is extremely difficult, if not altogether impossible, except for deific entities.
Gods: Gods are particularly large or powerful manifestations of spirit. Some may be highly diffuse, and lacking in specific identity. For example, a pocket plane might have coalesced around a specific spirit which could be said to be the 'god' of that plane. Other gods may be very intense and personal. Spirit can manifest itself in many forms, and so there are many types of 'gods.'
Mortals: Mortals are smaller and weaker manifestations of spirit. Being weaker, they tend to be bound to the essence of their bodies. (In some traditions, the body associated with a mortal spirit is referred to as its soma.) Such spirits are powerful enough to retain some sense of individual consciousness and identity but are unable to transcend the bonds of their physical bodies. When their bodies die, mortal spirits gradually dissipate unless its body can be restored. (Unless, of course, a more powerful spirit intervenes to support them.)
Things: Things are just clumps of essence, devoid of any spirit. Essence can manifest different patterns and properties, creating the appearance of different substances. These patterns follow their own rules (the laws of nature).
Essence Magic: Although weak spirits are largely bound by their soma, they still have some free will to affect things. Working within the laws of nature is just the exercise of ordinary free will; imposing the will of the spirit directly on the essence (and generally against the laws of nature) is magic. The stronger a spirit is, the more effective it can be at working its will on things.
Spirit Magic: Spirit magic generally breaks down into two basic categories: Spirit Sense and Domination. Spirit sense involves the ability to perceive the world directly (that is, without mediation through physical senses). This would provide things like ESP, precog, etc. Domination allows the mage to impose his or her will on other spirits (animals, people, demons, etc.). It is different in some ways from essence magic, but has some similarities too.
Goals and Game Mechanics
The goal here is to take the general world concepts and translate them into game mechanics that make things comprehensible and enjoyable. Before we get into the details of game mechanics, I'll take a moment to describe what I hope to accomplish with them.
[list=1]In this system, mages are those who have both strong enough spirit, and enough training and knowledge, to manipulate reality. With training, they can both strengthen their spirit (stronger effects and/or more spells) and their skills (greater range of abilities and/or subtlety).
*The ability to do magic is a combination of having the strength of will and the knowledge and skills. None of this nonsense about forgetting a spell when you cast it.
*Even a strong spirit can become fatigued by making magic, so there is a limit to how much you can do in a short time. But recovery is fairly quick, too, much like recovering from a short sprint.
*Anyone can cast magic if they have the basic personal characteristics and are willing to learn the necessary skills and abilities. But it takes significant dedication to have any real power or flexibility.
*Even those who dedicate themselves to magic may only master a limited subset of all possibilities.
*Different cultures may have developed magic of certain types and neglected others, so their may be campaign-dependent limits on which magical abilities are available.
*I'm leaning toward a class-like system that channels advancement in specific ways that are appropriate to the culture and environment. But this implies a fairly loose class system that allows classes to be built, rebuilt, and modified for various worlds and cultures. It also implies that individual characters can pick up abilities from other classes, but this will be at a slower rate or otherwise disfavored.
*Class-specific special abilities are out. Every ability must be expressed as either a skill or a feat, or the equivalent. (I'm not sold on d20-variant as a framework but it is at least a concrete way to talk about things.) By expressing things in these terms, it makes it easier to reshuffle the way classes are constructed and allow characters to pick up out-of-class abilities in a controlled way.
[/list]
That's probably a good start for now, at least as points for discussion. I've got some ideas for implementation but this post is already long enough and I've got to take off soon.
Good and solid.
I like the fluff and the fact you have an underlying power source for the magic.
I like the goals you set forth.
how magic is 'scored' (i.e., mana points, daily point limit, per hour point limits, etc) and how magic types are separated (i.e., priest vs mage, elemental, necromantic) are intrisically tied together. I am looking forward to seeing what you do.
A lot of the details are yet to be worked out, but I was thinking of a mana point system with a relatively low number of mana points, maybe 3-5 base (depending on underlying characteristic) plus one per level, plus maybe some system that would allow bonus points for items (like an amulet with a captive spirit or something). Then, regeneration on a relatively quick scale, maybe 100% of total per hour. By keeping mana point totals low, the bookkeeping is reduced somewhat, and quick regeneration means that each encounter will usually start from full total. But the details will depend on overall power level and how to balance magic vs. non-magic skills.
Priests will be tough - in some cultures they may just be trained in magic that isn't generally available to other casters - a holy secrets kind of thing. In others they may be mostly Dominators - trained in some form of spirit magic to compel nature spirits or imps to do their bidding. In some cases the priests may worship a deity or pantheon that controls an army of angels, demons, or other servitors. Through their rituals they would be able to compel or persuade the servants of their god to perform magic for them. I've got a bunch of ideas but not much is concrete yet. So I'm not sure which direction I'll go. (That's partly why I'm starting this thread, to see what other ideas people have.)
In some cases, types of magic may just not fit or may be unrecognizably different. Raising a skeleton would require at least some degree of Spirit Binding and Domination plus some kind of sacrifice or dead spirit. (Domination to control the spirit, Spirit Binding to bind the spirit to the corpse.) But with those skills, there might be more effective things you could do than create lesser undead.
Just a thought...maybe a bad one...
but what I would be doing, were I you, based on your description of raising a skeleton, I would have something of a component system.
lower level spells may need only one spell component type (essence/elements, essence/healing, essence/artificer, spirit/spirit sense, Spirit/affect self, spirit/influence others, spirit/necromancy)
Mid power spells might need 2 types.
More powerful spells might need a caster to be versed in 3 or even 4 types of magic.
This has an interesting side effect that automatically separates casters. It makes for a great in-setting development for casters, as they will need to learn more types of magic as they go on.
LV has anticipated me a bit, so this is a good time to put in some more details on my ideas. This is all still work in progress, so there are bound to be flaws or details I haven't fully worked out. As before, I'll phrase things in d20 terms even though I don't feel entirely comfortable with the framework yet.
Spell-Casting Abilities (Essence)Spell casting abilities will be either a set of skills or feat chains that have to be learned or acquired in order to create magical effects. More about various types of effects later.
Essence effects are generated by combining abilities with different Patterns (requires knowledge of different patterns or manifestations of essence, such as Flesh, Flame, Frost, Air, etc.), Techniques (requires knowledge of specific essence manipulations such as Create, Control, Restore, Bar, Transform, etc.), and Shaping (such as Emanation, Trace, Object, Bolt, Ray, Cone, Plane, etc.).
The Shaping abilities are fairly straightforward. Emanation, Trace and Object shaping are basic and are included in the Essence Sense feat. Other shaping abilities will require special feats, for example, perhaps Simple Shaping would allow effects with Bolt, Ray, Cone, Sphere, or Plane shapes. Or Multi-Target would allow a spell with multiple targets or disconnected regions of effect.
Each Pattern ability forms a complete feat chain. For example, for the Flame pattern, you'd have a chain like this:
Tyro Flame *Journeyman Flame *Master Flame *Grandmaster Flame
(Nomenclature is subject to change if I come up with more interesting terms.) The higher the level of your ability, the more prodigious the effects you can create. Roughly this will control the raw power of the effect '" damage, intensity, size, duration, etc.
Each Technique ability also forms an independent feat chain. For the Control technique, you'd have:
Simple Control *Complex Control *Elaborate Control
(Better nomenclature needed.) The higher level of ability allows more complex and detailed effects.
Simple effects can be modeled with a combination of a Shape, a single Technique and a single Pattern. For example, Object shape + Simple Bar + Grandmaster Flame = Grandmaster Protection from Flame: A single object of average size (say, 1 cubic meter or less) can be completely protected from the destructive effects of flame, even up to the level of Master Flame effects. More complex effects might require multiple patterns and/or techniques.
I think that a caster that really wanted to focus on essence magic would get to start with three abilities (Essence Sense, one Pattern, and one Technique). They'd have the opportunity to add a feat with each level. (Or, if you want a straight experience system, there would be an XP cost to gain or improve any ability.) Non-casters would have trouble picking up spell casting abilities because they would need Essence Sense as a prerequisite, then a Pattern and a technique before they can create even the most basic effects. That would be a pretty heavy investment of feats.
Spell-Casting Abilities (Spirit)Spirit magic is a little different in concept from essence magic. Essence is passive and resists the caster's will only in the tendency to follow the laws of nature. Spirit is active and will directly resist the attempt to substitute the caster's will for its own. So the breakdown by Pattern and Technique doesn't really work here. I still want to maintain some kind of component or skill-based approach. But I'd also like the approach to respect the differences between manipulating the patterns of essence and manipulating the will of another spirit.
There are a few categories of spirit abilities, so probably each category will have its own feat chain. But unlike the straight linear chains of Patterns and Techniques, these chains might be more complex, with cross-over prerequisites and branching paths.
Spirit Sense is the basic ability of spirit magic '" it allows the caster to extend her senses non-materially to sense the presence, strength, and state of other spirits. This category would lead into areas of empathy and mind reading as well.
*Spirit Control (or Domination) would be the category of abilities that control other spirits. This would include things like fascination or charm abilities, manipulation of perceptions, thought and emotion control, memory tampering, etc.
*Spirit Binding would be the category of abilities to control the physical relationships of spirits. This would include things like severing spirits from their bodies, binding them to new bodies (or objects), exorcism, spirit barriers, and the like.
*Spirit Attacks would involve hurling invisible bolts of mental energy at a target in an attempt to daze, confuse, knock unconscious, or otherwise disrupt its will.
*Counter-magic gives the ability to directly impact another spirit's attempts to work magic, whether it be essence or spirit magic.
*Maybe Spirit Healing would be a separate category that branches off the Spirit Control feat chain at some point.
Anyway, this area is more complex and not as fully developed in my mind. But there seems like a lot of potential here.
Don't have any comments to make on it as of yet, but i just wanted to say that this looks really neat. I agree with LV that it is cool that you have an underlying power source and a direct connection between the system and your setting and world. So keep up the good work.
Quote from: snakefing[...] Spell casting abilities will be either a set of skills or feat chains that have to be learned or acquired in order to create magical effects. More about various types of effects later.
Essence effects are generated by combining abilities with different Patterns (requires knowledge of different patterns or manifestations of essence, such as Flesh, Flame, Frost, Air, etc.), Techniques (requires knowledge of specific essence manipulations such as Create, Control, Restore, Bar, Transform, etc.), and Shaping (such as Emanation, Trace, Object, Bolt, Ray, Cone, Plane, etc.). [...]
Hmmm... sounds quite similar to the casting system from
Ars Magica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Magica) ("AM"). AM was based on a combination of forms and techniques.
Forms:- Animal (magic related to animals)
- Aquam (magic related to water)
- Auram (magic related to air)
- Corpus (magic related to the human body)
- Herbam (magic related to plants)
- Ignem (magic related to fire)
- Imaginem (magic related to images and senses)
- Mentem (magic related to the mind)
- Terram (magic related to earth)
- Vim (magic related to magical energies)
Techniques:- Creo (creation magic)
- Intellego (divination magic)
- Muto (changing magic)
- Perdo (destruction magic)
- Rego (control magic)
Magic was performed by combining a certain form with a specific technique:
- Creo Ignem = "create fire"; was very often used to perform the typical blasting in combat, but could as well be used to create magical fire for a special forge, or simply make a glowing orb of light
- Intellego Mentem = "understand the mind"; can be used to detect lies or read the mind of others
- Muto Corpus = "change the body"; can be used to transform oneself into another form, or to cripple an enemy
- Rego Auram = "control air"; could be made to suffocate or silence an enemy, or to make yourself fly or levitate.
The difficulty was based on what you attempted to do. More generally one could say: the DM had to handwave any effect not following the very basic examples given in the corebook. x. Also, certain effects required a "requisite" (e.g. if you wanted to turn someone into an animal, you would use the technique Muto, but the lower of the forms Corpus and Animal; Animal was the requisite for the Muto Corpus effect).
However, I think a similar approach could eventually work with a d20 variation. If you don't want to "copy" the techniques and forms from AM, you could still work something similar by using the various schools as a baseline.
Yeah, I remember vaguely the Ars Magica approach, including the fact that things were often somewhat weakly defined. No doubt at some level it stuck in my mind and influenced my ideas.
I still have the idea of creating a true spell list, since not all applications of Patterns and Techniques are that straightforward. So casters would have some basic simple effects just by combining their skills; but anything that used more than one Pattern or Technique would have to be learned separately and collected in a spell book. The same might also apply to more specialized spells even if they only combine one Pattern and Technique.
Difficulty is controlled by the level of Pattern or Technique required. This means that some casters might focus on just one Pattern and multiple Techniques, or one Technique and multiple Patterns, or some combination.
Magical Effects
For this installment, I'll stick to short term effects, such as spells. I haven't really put much thought into rituals and magic items, but there will be something forthcoming eventually.
Types of Effects: All effects are created by combining various different feat abilities. I classify effects as simple effects and spells. Simple effects don't have to be learned '" you can use them as soon as you have the prerequisite feat abilities. Spells are more complex constructions that aren't so obvious, so they need to be learned separately. A caster would keep a book of spells they've learned, and any spell could be cast from the book. Not sure what kind of rules I'd have on memorizing spells, which would allow them to be cast without reference to the book. Other than that, there's no real difference in how simple effects and spells would be cast or used.
Mana Cost: A caster has a maximum Mana Level. Generally this will be something like (Spellcaster Level + Stat Bonus). Mana returns at a relatively quick rate, something like regaining your full Mana Level in an hour or two. This means that under typical circumstances, a caster can arrange to have their full Mana Level available for a single encounter. In a few cases, it might be worth keeping track of Mana recovery in detail.
Example Stat Blocks
These example stat blocks are meant to show how a spell or effect would be specified. Values such as damage dice, ranges, area of effect, etc. are illustrative '" in the end they'd need to be scaled to match other aspects of the game.
Minor Flame Blast (Simple Effect)
Prerequisites: Tyro Flame, Simple Create
Shape: Emanation (2m)
Mana: 2
Duration: Instant
Range: Local
Damage: d4+1
Defense: Dodge
Description: Projects a jet of flame from the general vicinity of the caster (usually the hands, but this isn't mandatory) in a specified direction. This can do a small amount of fire damage to a target, ignite materials that are readily combustible, singe other flammable objects, or the like.
Minor Flame Barrier (Spell)
Prerequisites: Tyro Flame, Simple Bar, Enhanced Shaping
Shape: Wall/Plane (10 sq. m)
Mana: 2
Duration: 1 min
Range: Local
Description: Creates a barrier against the passage of flame. This affects normal or magically created flame. The effect will extinguish very small fires (such as a candle, lamp, or flaming arrow) as they pass through, and cause a noticeable reduction in the strength of larger fires or flames. Damage from fire spells or other flames that pass through the barrier will be reduced by one die or one level as appropriate. The barrier can be shaped into any kind of continuous surface, such as a wall, dome, or arc, with total area of 10 sq. m.
Quote from: snakefingYeah, I remember vaguely the Ars Magica approach, including the fact that things were often somewhat weakly defined. No doubt at some level it stuck in my mind and influenced my ideas.
Hehe, it's quite obvious. :P
Quote from: snakefingI still have the idea of creating a true spell list, since not all applications of Patterns and Techniques are that straightforward. So casters would have some basic simple effects just by combining their skills; but anything that used more than one Pattern or Technique would have to be learned separately and collected in a spell book. The same might also apply to more specialized spells even if they only combine one Pattern and Technique.
Well, there were predefined "spells" in AM, too. Those were similar to "rotes" from WW's Mage. They were relatively common and (in the game world) very strictly defined magical effects.
You could introduce something similar:
(a) spontaneous magic: effects created "ad-hoc" by a caster by combining the appropriate components
(b) static magic: predefined magical effects that can be "learned"
(c) mastered magic: magical effects that were studied to a such intense degree that they come more or less naturally to the caster
Quote from: snakefingDifficulty is controlled by the level of Pattern or Technique required. This means that some casters might focus on just one Pattern and multiple Techniques, or one Technique and multiple Patterns, or some combination.
In AM it was
always better to spend most points in the techniques, and only a few points in the forms.
Compare, for example, the following two hermetics:
(1) Bob.-
Techniques: Creo 10, Intellego 10, Muto 10, Perdo 10, Rego 10
-
Forms: Animal 0, Aquam 0, Auram 0, Corpus 0, Herbam 0, Imaginem 0, Ignem 0, Mentem 10, Terram 0, Vim 10
Bob is very good at Creo/Intellego/Muto/Perdo/Rego Mentem and Creo/Intellego/Muto/Perdo/Rego Vim. He has a score of 20 in those. In all other fields, he has a score of 10, thanks to his high techniques.
(2) John.-
Techniques: Creo 0, Intellego 10, Muto 0, Perdo 10, Rego 0
-
Forms: Animal 10, Aquam 0, Auram 0, Corpus 0, Herbam 10, Imaginem 10, Ignem 0, Mentem 10, Terram 0, Vim 10
John is very good at Intellego/Perdo Animal, Intellego/Perdo Herbam, Intellego/Perdo Imaginem, Intellego/Perdo Mentem, and Intellego/Perdo Vim. He has a score of 20 in those. However, due to his lack of techniques, he has a score of 0 in Creo/Muto/Rego Aquam, Creo/Muto/Rego Auram, Creo/Muto/Rego Corpus, Creo/Muto/Rego Ignem, and Creo/Muto/Rego Terram. In all other fields, he has a score of 10.
While John is stronger in 2 techniques applied to 3 more forms, he is ultimately weaker in all other cases (or on an even level).
To you intend to keep this "phenomenon" in your game, too, or do you have an idea how to negate that?
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YsgarthYsgarth[/url] which I worked on in play test and advisory role around that time. It also had a component aspect to the spell design, although it didn't go as far in this direction as I am thinking, and was significantly more complex as well.
Quote from: Ra-TielIn AM it was always better to spend most points in the techniques, and only a few points in the forms.
(... example redacted ...)
To you intend to keep this "phenomenon" in your game, too, or do you have an idea how to negate that?
Well, my idea is that various levels of the individual components would be prerequisites for specific spells and effects, rather than summing up the component skills. So if you want to do complex spells, high levels of Technique won't substitute for high levels of Pattern. If you want to do a Flame Create type spell, the higher Create feats would enable more complex shapes, more precision, or the like. Higher Flame feats would enable more intense, more damaging, or longer-lasting effects. They don't overlap by way of simple addition.
I've been working on some more details for this, but it is going slowly owing to real life. Those carbon credits won't program themselves, no matter how hard I try. Guess I'm just not strong enough in the Force yet.
Anyway, I've got an issue that I have been turning over but haven't made much progress on - namely, divine magic.
I want my divine magic to be consistent with the metaphysics that I laid out in the initial posting. I'd also like it to be consistent with a broad range of different gods and religions. But I end up baffled as to how to make it work.
In my vision of how it ought to work, religions can be very diverse. Philosophical, ecclesiastic, mystical, cultic, mysterian, whatever. Some may be devoted to specific ideas or principles, and learn to harness the powers of nature, or spirits, or whatever, to further their own purposes. Others may be directly in service to a powerful deity or demon of some kind, gaining some kind of knowledge or powers in return for their allegiance.
This implies that divine magic may be as diverse as the religions it is associated with, and this is my problem. I don't want to create a complex system of different types of magic, but I don't want to push all religions into a single pattern either.
I think in some cases it may be sufficient to say that a given religion serves as an organization that controls and teaches a body of magical knowledge that is essentially the same as that learned by wizards.
In other cases, it would make more sense for the priests to be able to call on the deity and/or its servants for assistance of some kind. This would be a wholly separate sub-system (or maybe even multiple systems). The first thing that comes to mind is familiar spirits. The dedicated priest could be assigned one or more familiars (corporeal or not, depending on the deity) whose powers the priest may call on more or less at will. Another thing that comes to mind would be more some kinds of elaborate but powerful rituals that may call on aid from the deity itself or one of its more powerful servitors.
I don't really have in mind any kind of mechanics for these things yet, and I'm still open to any alternative suggestions.
Here's an example of where I want to go with religions, drawing from my Hellenic Kingdoms setting in World of Axa. Since my system is not fully developed, these descriptions are incomplete. I just want to see where I am going with this. Abstractions are fine, but some concrete examples are needed to keep things on the right track.
Church of Zeus
The court religion in most kingdoms is still Zeus '" the god of rulership and lightning. Because of the rulership aspect, the priesthood of Zeus has a lot of say in the perceived legitimacy of the ruling factions, so they are inevitably heavily involved in politics and civic life. This probably implies a highly ecclesiastical organization, with lots of crossover between the priesthood and politically powerful families. The lightning aspect may be largely a holdover from a more primitive version of the religion, but it is still the symbol of how the god (and by extension, his priests and the rulers he has anointed) enforces his will.
This leads to a split in the church structure. Some priests that focus on spirit magic, especially the Path of Domination, which provides human influencing powers that are important to rulership and political influence. On the other hand, some priests focus on Lightning pattern spells in the essence magic, acting as enforcers for the church, and probably with strong ties to the law and enforcement. Likely this wing of the church would also have some force of arms as well.
Zeus would be a pretty distant god, perhaps he doesn't even really exist? At any rate, the reality of the god for the people at large would be the powers that his priests manifest, so they'd pretty jealously guard their magical knowledge in these areas. There would probably some good rituals, like a Heroic Spirit ritual, in times of war, could imbue some of their followers with the spirits of dead heroes or the like.
Mysteries of Eleuvan Spring
On a rocky hillside there is a spring whose water flows down to an orchard of olive and fruit trees. The spring has long been reputed to have mystical properties, and a small cult has grown around the care and protection of the spring. Each year, there is a ritual procession from the city to the spring. Congregants are anointed with the oil and drink wine from the sacred grove, and Initiates gather to earn entry into the cult. The ceremony culminates in a spiritual communion joining the spirits of all present with the spirit of the spring.
In fact, the spring is the center of consciousness for a genius loci which reflects the spirit and consciousness of the surrounding region. Initiates care for the land in ways that support and strengthen the spirit, and their communion is rewarded by awakening to the Ways of Water and Wood. Their secret rituals give them knowledge of the surrounding land, which helps promote a healthy balance of nature and good productivity for orchards and farms in the region. They also learn rituals to awaken the spirits of the land, which they can then direct in ways that will defend their shrine and their land.
The hellenistic bent is extremely attractive to me. I have to admit that really helps get me into this.
You are representing this as PAntheonic, correct, with Patron deities being part of a larger grouping of gods, so that it is not belief of one god over another, more of a patronage situation.
Zeus was also a great lover and seducer, as well, though some might use other terminology.
Yeah, the general idea is that Zeus is more of a court and civic religion - important to the people at the top and for its big public celebrations and the like. Common folk would spend more of their time on other worship like Demeter or Poseidon, whatever is more directly related to their lifestyle.
The pantheon is not intended to be thought of as a direct translation of historical religion, just inspired by it. So for example, I've decided to collapse the roles of Hera and Hestia, change the profile of Artemis a bit, drop out pieces of mythology that don't fit my modified Hellenic-inspired culture, etc.
For the purposes of this thread, I'm trying to get a handle on what kinds of magic ought to be associated with different kinds of religion, so I chose a couple examples from my own setting. Here, it seems like Zeus is pretty well represented by a dichotomy of fairly standard spirit and essence casters, whose training is all in the context of a particular institution. So they aren't necessarily channeling power from outside themselves.
On the other hand, the Eleuvan Spring cultists may be gaining some kind of knowledge directly from communion with their patron spirit. This spirit need not even be fully conscious in the usual sense, but just the changed perceptions give them the effect of Water and Plant pattern casting. But I've still got to figure out how to deal with ritualistic things like awakening the spirits.
Anyone who has other ideas for religions that are of a different sort is welcome to post them - it is just more food for thought.
Edit: Link to Hellenic Kingdoms (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?12625.post)
Still working on a bunch of more crunchy stuff, but here's another taste:
Magic Items
In this system, magic items are rare and difficult to create. The basic reason is simple - creating magic requires an exercise of Will, and you can't bottle that. Not easily, anyway. Nevertheless, there are ways to create enchantments that are similar in some ways to magic items. These kinds of objects will normally not be detected as magical, nor are they subject to magical dispelling. Often these items will definitely be identifiable as magically created or magical in effect.
Because of the relative difficulty and limited effectiveness of magic items, they just won't be as common or as important in this system as they commonly are in D&D.
Enhanced artificing
An essence mage can use her magical abilities to enhance or aid the process of creating an object. This can result in an object that is materially superior to a mundane item, but it won't actually be magical in the usual sense. For example, a mage who is also a bladesmith could use his Metal pattern and Control technique while smithing a blade, to reduce or eliminate flaws, create a keener edge, and the like. The result could be a sword that is harder, sharper, and less breakable than a normal blade could hope to be. The downside is that this technique must be applied as the item is being crafted, so that the effects are woven deeply and permanently into the essence of the object. Otherwise, the results will be just as temporary as if a spell had been cast on the item.
A more advanced example might be the use of magic to create an object of a type that might not normally be possible. For example, a mage who is also a jeweler could use Earth pattern and Control technique to merge a diamond and ruby together to create a single gem that is half diamond, half ruby. Or a more elaborate and difficult process using Earth pattern, Fire pattern, and Transform technique could embed a tiny, eternal flame in the heart of a ruby, creating a gem that radiates warmth permanently.
Spirit Binding
An alternative form of magic item can be created by binding a spirit of some kind (imp, demon, genie, severed soul, animal spirit, etc.) to an object. The bound spirit then provides the force of Will required to create magic. The only problem is, how do you control the spirit to make it do what you want? The magic powered by the spirit's Will is naturally under the control of that spirit. Magic items like this are potentially much more powerful, but also much riskier. They are also harder to create and use, since you need at least a fair degree of spirit magic to bind and control a spirit.
One approach to this uses a bound spirit as an empty vessel for spells. This only works with the weakest forms of spirits, whose Will is relatively easily bent and transformed. Often this will be some kind of animal-level spirit, with a spell or two imprinted on its will by the item's creator. Anyone with even a modest amount of Spirit Domination ability can compel the spirit to cast its spell. Or, with the use of higher levels of spirit magic, the spirit can be coerced into loosing the spell under certain pre-determined circumstances. Creating items like this is difficult because of the complex combinations of different types of magic required to bind, coerce, and imprint spells on the spirit. Also, the capacity of such weak spirits to create magic is limited.
That is quite incredible. I have been keeping track of this and I think your magic system is so complex and wonderfully crafted. I like how you have magicians using their magic to enhance their perceptions when crafting mundane items of extremely high quality.
I was thinking about a possible idea. A magician uses their magic to craft a masterwork body of iron armor and then binds a spirit to it with spells that will enable the magician to command it. Tada! one iron golem.
Quote from: NomadicI was thinking about a possible idea. A magician uses their magic to craft a masterwork body of iron armor and then binds a spirit to it with spells that will enable the magician to command it. Tada! one iron golem.
Well, I'm not sure I'd call that an iron golem, maybe just an animated suit of armor. But something like that could work.
First, you'll need to find a spirit that knows how to fight. If you bound a dog spirit to the suit of armor, it wouldn't know what to do with it. The spirit of a recently dead warrior would be a good choice, or some kind of imp or demon.
Second, you'll need some hefty spirit magic to bind a spirit of that strength. That's certainly not attainable, but will require a pretty powerful mage.
Third, you'll need to secure the cooperation of the spirit. Otherwise it might turn on you. Some kind of domination would be a possibility, but you might get voluntary cooperation with some kind of deal or through religious or other loyalties.
Then, you'll have to imprint a Metal Control spell on the spirit, if the spirit does not have this ability naturally. This would allow the spirit to control the actions and movement of the armor.
Once I have a real system in place, I could crunch-a-tize this a bit more, but that would be the general approach.
Here's my more detailed writeup on spirit magic so far:
Spirit Sense: A character with this feat is awakened to the spirit world, and is able to sense the presence of spirits (whether corporeal or incorporeal) in the vicinity. No other spirit magic feats can be acquired until the spirit sense is awakened.
Spirit knowledge: Tyro Spirit, Journeyman Spirit, Master Spirit, Grandmaster Spirit
Tyro Spirit is the basic requirement for any kind of spirit magic effects. Further development provides greater knowledge of spirits, which will sharpen the spirit sense and allow for deeper and more complex effects.
Spirit Magic Paths: Each path provides a set of spirit magic feats allowing various related spirit magic effects.
The Path of Mind: Sensing thoughts and emotions
The Path of Pain: Spirit and will attacks
The Path of Necromancy: Binding and compelling spirits
The Path of Dominance: Controlling thoughts and emotions
The Path of the Aether: Expanding spirit presence across space and time
The Path of the Magi: Counter-magic
The Path of Healing: Mental and spiritual restoration
I'd like to have details of the feats in each path, their prerequisites, etc. I've been a bit stalled on working out details, and I've decided that part of the reason is that I need to start actually making spells to see how the system will work itself out.
So here is a link to the start of my spell list (http://75.70.105.39:8080/gamewiki/SpellsAB). As of this writing, there's only one spell there (And its an essence spell even), but it will give you a feel for the stat block at least. Feel free to log in (use Guest/password, or create your own user profile) and add comments or suggest spells. Or post ideas here. I can work out details, but it is helpful to have lots of ideas to work from. Or check back occasionally to see what's been added.
I'll be back with more after I've worked out 20-30 good spirit spells.
It has been a while since I posted on this.
Partly, this is because I started to realize that making this magic system work would require essentially a whole new game system, and I've been working on that a lot. Also, real life has its own demands. Hopefully some of that will be easing up a bit. (Starting now, my wife only goes to school two nights a week instead of four, so I'll have more help with the three-year-olds.)
Meantime, I've been making incremental progress on my stuff, but putting it on my own wiki. Here's the latest details on the Path of Mind (http://75.70.105.39:8080/gamewiki/Path%20of%20Mind).
I think this spirit magic stuff is pretty central to my system and my world. The metaphysics is largely based on a gnostic, mind-over-matter view, and the spirit magic really emphasizes this nicely. It really has a lot of impact on how magic tends to manifest in the world and society.
For example, magic items in the standard D&D sense are almost non-existent. (You can't cast a spell without Will, so a magic item that can cast a spell would have to have its own Will, making it that much harder to create and control.)
Another example: Traditional necromantic spells are just harder, and correspondingly rare. You can't animate a corpse without giving it a Will, which requires subduing and binding a spirit of some kind, then imprinting it with the spell abilities to control its new "body". There's just no easy way to do this - it requires substantial skills in two vastly different areas of magic.
So I've been working very slowly in the spirit magic area, trying to make it feel "just right" for the type of world I'm envisioning. Hopefully it will be worth the effort; at least I'm having some fun with it myself.
yay!!!
I'm glad you're back working on this. I just wanted t say that.