EDIT: Added Raelifin's additions to the list. Changed outer to pervasive, and inner to internal. Added limit category. Added frequency category (concept by Vreeg, current edition by Raelifin). Examples updated to my best ability.
As you might have noticed, i have some notions about "user-friendliness". This is an attempt at making a "System" that you can use to quickly identify various magic systems in settings. So instead of using a long description, you can quickly identify a system by using this simplified system. Not that this is meant to substitute the long and detailed descriptions; that would just be stupid. This is purely meant to give people a quick idea of what your system entails. The "identifier" is made up of a series of descriptive words each keyed to a trait that can vary from system to system. Anything you think should be added? Also, feel free to try and describe magic systems you know with this system.
This was mostly made as an experiment
FREQUENCY
Anomaly: Almost everyone goes their whole life without seeing this magic.
Legendary: This magic in only seen by those who associate with the arcane.
Rare: Common folk believe in this magic, but don't see it enough to really understand it.
Infrequent: This magic is present, but unusual.
Common: This magic is present all across the realm.
Ubiquitous: It is rare to find instances where this magic is not manifest.
POWER
Limited: There are limits to what can be achieved.
Unlimited: Everything can be achieved with enough skill.
Low: Magic can't do much.
High: Limited power, but still very powerful
EFFECT
Universal: Magic is mysterious and can produce all kinds of effects.
[School of magic]: Effects from classical schools like Illusion, Necromancy,transmutation etc.
Mental: Magic can influence thoughts and the brain.
Elementalism: Magic involves the manipulation of the elements.
Druidic: Magic involves influencing nature.
Telekinetic: The magic primarily involves telekinesis
[product]: The "product" produced by the magic.
Shapeshifting: Magic that changes your body into another shape or form.
Healing: Healing is magic that mends wounds and otherwise restores full life and vigor.
(SIDEEFFECT)
Draining: Spells weaken objects, energy or lifeforms in the vicinity
Empower: You become physically or magically stronger when using magic
Weakening: You become less powerful whenever you use magic.
SOURCE
Pervasive: The magical energy is all around us. Example: the Force (Formerly Outer)
Internal: The magical force is within creatures. Example: Ki (formerly Inner)
Pact: You gain your magical force through pacts or alliances with magical creatures. Example: Faustian bargains.
Dimensional: You can draw magic in from another plane.
Material: Magic comes from the use or change of a natural trait or material of some kind.
Unknown: The source of the magic is neither understood or known.
Divine: Similar to pact, but an impersonal pact with a creature most consider a god.
Connection: You gain your power through connections with other people.
CASTING
Implement: You can only work magic through the use of a magical implement.
Verbal: Magic involves magical words.
Runic: Magic involves inscribing magical signs or symbols.
Somatic: Magic involves movement
Focus: You can activate your magic by concentrating mentally.
Ritual: Requires long and complicated rituals.
Spontaneous: you can't control your magic.
Varied: Can change depending on effects.
LIMIT
Unrestrained: This magic can be used without restriction.
Sanity: This magic slowly drives you insane.
Lifeforce: This magic ages you prematurely or otherwise permanently drains your body.
Strength: Using this magic has a physical toll, like strenuous exercise.
Headache: Using this magic requires intense mental focus that drains the user's energy.
Arbitrary: This magic simply ceases to work if used too often. (mana magic goes here)
Transformation: This magic slowly turns the user into something else.
Ascending: You become more in tune with magic and might eventually tune out of the world
supply: You have a specific amount of available magic energy. If you use it all, you lose your powers.
LEARNING
Art: Art magic involves intense study and training. Example: D&D wizard
Inborn: Some individuals are born with natural capabilities for magic. Example: D&D sorcerer
Chosen: Like inborn, just much rarer.
Controlled: Combination of Art and Inborn. You have been taught to control your inborn magic.
Easy: Like art, just a whole lot easier.
To give some examples: D&D wizards use an Infrequent Unlimited Universal Varied Pervasive Unrestricted Art, Jedi use a Rare Limited Mental/Telekinesis Pervasive Unrestricted Controlled magic.
My own magic types can be classified in the following way:
Demonology: Legendary Limited Universal (Ritual)/Focus Pact Sanity Art.
Resonance technology: Rare Limited Transmutation Implement Natural (transformation) Art magic. (sounds bad...)
Psions: Anomaly Unlimited Universal Spontaneous Unknown Sanity Chosen.
Marut: Infrequent Limited lightning* Spontaneous/(focus) Natural Lifeforce Inborn/controlled. *product
Comment however you want, just don't call it oversimplified. If you think it is, then at least add some constructive criticism to make it better.
Other than that i would like help with: Finding better words so you can always get it to sound good in a fixed order. Fix the many holes there probably are in this system. And again, I'd like to see your own examples.
Hope you like, or at least that you don't hate it.
My magic system (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?49893.last) has two subsystems:
Essence magic: Limited Elemental Focus Inner Art
Spirit magic: Limited Mental/Necromancy Focus Inner Art
The main thing I see here is that particularly in the effect, it might require more than one type.
Let's see...
Shamanism: Low Druidic/Healing Pact Verbal/Somatic Favor Controlled
Voodoo: Limited Elementalism/Mental Pact Implement Headache/Sanity Art
Shadowbinding: Limited Shapeshifting Dimensional Focus Transformation Art
World Magic: Unlimited Universal Outer Spontaneous Unrestrained Chosen
Elder Magic: High Universal Material Implement Unrestrained* Easy
* - Typically
That last one breaks down really badly. Elder magic is the magic of the many artifacts that remain from the old days. It is essentially the magic of magic items.
I suggest adding:
<ADDED>
Low Druidic Inner Varied Inborn... not that there is very much magic at all in my setting.
The system works!: I'm now rather intrigued by Raelifin's World Magic. Sounds interesting from the description. And thanks for the examples everybody, more proof that the system isn't completely horrendous. And thanks to Raelifin as well for the additions, I'll get them added to their respective lists at once.
EDIT: Looking over my own example, would the force actually be considered an Outer force?
Outer might be better described as "pervasive" and inner as "internal."
I'll do a wiki on world magic today. Thanks for the motivation.
No problem. And i agree, those names do sound better. I'll change them.
Oh, and I just thought of another category:
LIMIT
Unrestrained: This magic can be used without restriction.
Sanity: This magic slowly drives you insane.
Lifeforce: This magic ages you prematurely or otherwise permanently drains your body.
Strength: Using this magic has a physical toll, like strenuous exercise.
Headache: Using this magic requires intense mental focus that drains the user's energy.
Arbitrary: This magic simply ceases to work if used too often.
Transformation: This magic slowly turns the user into something else.
Favor: The use of this magic harms the relationship with its source.
This could work as a nice community standard for classification. I'll get to thinking what works for my own setting.
I'm glad you like the idea of it :)
not oversimplified, I like it, it misses a very important campaign issue, and that is how common spell casting/spell casters is/are.
something like
FREQUENCY-
Almost non-existent-Less than 1/10,000-people go their whole life without seeing magic-mythical
Extremely rare-less than 1/1000, seen only in great population centers, very arcane
Rare-less than 1/100, seen in towns, a very poor common understanding of spell effect is known.
Uncommon-less than 1/20, normally found often in villages, many workers of magic in cities, some common understanding of what magic can do.
Common-spell casters abound, and there is enough magic that common peiople have a decent idea of it's limitations.
Overly common-non-spellcasters are rare.
Lets see...
Drakydism: Limited Universal Pervasive Focus Arbitrary Art
Lexicology: Limited Universal Pervasive Verbal Arbitrary Art
Elementalism: Limited Universal Pervasive Varied Arbitrary Art
Good, very good. I was hoping it would turn out something like that. It looks like it works, however its a little confusing sometimes. For example I chose arbitrary since my casters draw from their inner energy, which will deplete if they use it too much (they can draw from life force but if they do that they could die... thus still having a finite amount they can cast) this though was just as a guess since I wasn't sure. The power thing also didn't have enough explanation so I was a bit confused.
Glad you like it :)
It's true that we are missing this category, but although I'll copy it directly for now, i think the numbers might be a bit low. By these standards, even D&D would have "rare" spellcasters. And I'm not sure frequency and common knowledge are always proportionate?
But I'll add them to the list at once :)
EDIT: Also, to everybody who wants a category added, could you give me a hint as to where in the order of categories it should be? Pretty difficult to figure out.
@ Vreeg: I'd suggest removing the numbers and making the names a bit more interesting.
Anomalous: Almost everyone goes their whole life without seeing this magic.
Legendary: This magic in only seen by those who associate with the arcane.
Rare: Common folk believe in this magic, but don't see it enough to really understand it.
Infrequent: This magic is present, but unusual.
Common: This magic is present all across the realm.
Ubiquitous: It is rare to find instances where this magic is not manifest.
Hmm, not sure which i like best, but I'll take Raelifin's for now as it's less specific.
I'm a sucker for efficient methods of categorization and I like this a lot. It's intriguing to run the system backwards, making combinations of descriptors and thinking what the resulting magic system might be like.
Just saw your post Nomadic; apparently you posted at the same time as me... (slightly before, really).
I'm a bit unsure about the arbitrary-thing as well to be honest. But i think I'd let all mana magic fall under that category unless they also affect you in another way. (I have written that in the post now, next to arbitrary as well, unless somebody disagrees)
Not sure how to clarify the power section more?
And Polycarp!, I'm with you on the "efficient methods of categorization". If that wasn't apparent from this thread :-p
And good idea with the backwards engineering. I think I'm done with magic unfortunately, but could be fun if i ever get some free time to mess around with it :D
I think this works really well as a standard, but some of the categories need to be cleaned up a bit to make the whole thing easier to read. At least in my opinion.
For instance, my addition of the word "Easy" to the learning category doesn't fit. Though "controlled" is the same sort of word. What if the summary always ended with the word "magic" as the noun, and thus made all of the other words adjectives which described the noun.
Art -> Learned
Inborn -> Inborn
Controlled -> Trained
Chosen -> Removed, as it is covered by rarity.
Easy -> Removed, as I feel it does not reflect the nature of learning the magic as well as "Learned"
Add: Impracticable: This magic cannot be learned by mortals.
This means, without any other categories, the summary looks like:
Jedi: Trained Magic
Marut: Inborn Magic
Wizardry (4E): Learned Magic
Wizardry (LotR): Impracticable Magic
I'll get back to "limit" in a sec.
For casting, I see some nouns...
Ritual -> Ritualistic
Focus -> Focused
Implement -> Materialistic
Example:
Harry Potter: Verbal/Materialistic, Trained Magic
Sources...
Unknown -> Mysterious (The magic isn't "unknown" so it reads poorly)
"Material" needs a clearer definition.
"Pact" might deserve a change, but I love the word.
Example:
Clerics (4E): Divine, Varied, Trained* Magic
* - I think
IMHO, effects should be moved up to right in front of the noun (magic), to give them more flexibility. This means you can have "electricity magic" or "electrical magic."
Example:
Telepathy: Internal, Focused, Trained, Mental Magic
Power:
Low -> Weak
Limited -> Formidable
High -> Mighty
Unlimited -> Miraculous
Frequency:
Anomaly -> Anomalous
As for limits, I think that any form of magic that actually has an important limit, one can add " limited by ____" after the word "magic."
Example:
Male Aes Sedai: Rare, Mighty, Pervasive, Focused, Trained, Universal Magic, limited by Sanity
Any thoughts?
Here's my variation on it using a combination of the primary idea and other ideas put forward (as well as some of my own thoughts). I think we can make this work, just run it through drafts till all the required stuff is handled.
[ic]
FREQUENCY
Anomalous: Almost everyone goes their whole life without seeing this magic.
Legendary: This magic in only seen by those who associate with the arcane.
Rare: Common folk believe in this magic, but don't see it enough to really understand it.
Infrequent: This magic is present, but unusual.
Common: This magic is present all across the realm.
Ubiquitous: It is rare to find instances where this magic is not manifest.
POWER
Low: Magic can't do much.
Mid: Magic is limited in power.
High: Magic is limited in power but that limit is quite high.
Epic: Magic can do anything with enough skill.
EFFECT
Universal: Magic can produce many different results.
Alteration: Magic involves the manipulation of the body into another shape or form.
Conjuration: Magic involves the summoning or creation of items and beings.
Divination: Magic involves the uncovering of hidden creatures, items, and facts.
Druidic: Magic involves influencing nature.
Elemental: Magic involves the manipulation of the base elements.
Life: Magic involves the control of life to heal, harm, or raise a creature from the dead.
Mental: Magic can influence thoughts and the brain.
Telekinetic: Magic involves the moving and manipulation of objects with the mind.
SOURCE
Pervasive: The magical energy is everywhere.
Internal: The magical force is within creatures.
Pact: You gain your magical powers through pacts or alliances with magical creatures.
Dimensional: You can draw magic in from another plane.
Material: Magical energy is drawn from physical objects.
Mysterious: The source of the magic is either not understood or completely unknown.
Divine: Magical power is gained from faith in or allegiance to a divine being or concept.
CASTING
Implement: You can only work magic through the use of a magical implement.
Verbal: Magic involves magical words.
Runic: Magic involves inscribing magical signs or symbols.
Somatic: Magic involves specific movements and gestures.
Focus: You can activate your magic by concentrating mentally.
Ritual: Magic requires long and complicated rituals.
Spontaneous: you are unable to control your magic.
Varied: Magic is cast in different ways depending on circumstances.
LIMIT
Unrestrained: This magic can be used without restriction.
Sanity: This magic slowly drives the user insane.
Lifeforce: This magic ages the caster prematurely or otherwise permanently drains their body.
Strength: Using this magic has a physical toll, like strenuous exercise.
Mental: This magic requires intense mental focus that strains the user's mind.
Arbitrary: This magic ceases to work if used too often.
Transformation: This magic slowly turns the user into something else.
LEARNING
Learned: Magic involves intense study and training.
Inborn: Individuals are born with natural capabilities for magic.
Controlled: Users are taught how to control their inborn magic.
Impracticable: Magic cannot be cast by mortals.
[/ic]
Examples:
Jedi = Legendary Epic-Powered Universal Pervasive Focused Unrestrained Controlled Magic
Wizard[3.5e] = Infrequent High-Powered Universal Pervasive Varied Unrestrained Learned Magic
Drakyd = Common Mid-Powered Universal Pervasive Focused Arbitrary Learned Magic
I would argue that 3.5e wizards are actually arbitrarily restrained, what with the spells-per-day.
True, I was just basing it off the OP's example though. Anyhow, thoughts on the list I put up. Anyone see anything missing that they could add, or things that don't need to be there, etc?
QuotePOWER
Low: Magic can't do much.
Mid: Magic is limited in power.
High: Magic is limited in power but that limit is quite high.
Epic: Magic can do anything with enough skill.
what[/i]?"
Actually, just copy Raelifin's post again, that might as well be my opinion. Clean-up by making the nouns adjectives, moving "effects" to the end, and so on.
To be honest all I see in changing low and high to weak and strong is just changing words. Exact same meanings. So if you have problems with one you are going to have problems with the other (to be honest I doubt you are going to have problems).
The nouns to adjectives is a whoops on my part. If you notice my examples you will see I actually did it. I just forgot to do it in the system itself.
Quote from: RaelifinI would argue that 3.5e wizards are actually arbitrarily restrained, what with the spells-per-day.
"Arbitrary" probably isn't a very good descriptor. First of all, it's not clear what it means - ceases to work permanently, or just exhausted for the day? Secondly, it's too all-encompassing - if you define it the way you have, all vancian and mana-based systems are "arbitrary." Since we're talking game systems here, it's all arbitrary in a sense. You could say that 3.5 wizard magic is "arbitrary" if you don't buy the vancian system, or "mental" if spell slots make sense to you as a means to simulate mental exhaustion, or "unrestrained" depending on what you mean by "limit" in the first place.
Quote from: NomadicTo be honest all I see in changing low and high to weak and strong is just changing words. Exact same meanings.
Yes, it is just words, but it makes it easier to read, especially for people who haven't read this thread. "Low" will make a person wonder "low what?" Low availability, low power, low frequency, low drawbacks? "Weak" is fairly self-explanatory and probably won't need further clarification to people who are seeing the system for the first time.
Notice my examples (again remember I didn't add everything in like I should of).
Quote from: Legendary Epic-[bPowered[/b] Universal Pervasive Focused Unrestrained Controlled Magic
Wizard[3.5e] = Infrequent High-Powered Universal Pervasive Varied Unrestrained Learned Magic
Drakyd = Common Mid-Powered Universal Pervasive Focused Arbitrary Learned Magic
shouldn't be any confusion there what it means.
Fiendspawn's magic is supposed to be a universal high-powered anomaly, with a variety of sources, castings, limits and learnings. As far as I can tell right now, Pervasive is the only non-applicable source of magic in Fiendspawn.
Also, I'm behind the idea of including Favor to the list of limitations; as it is, I don't see any first-post limitations that would describe a Defiler from Athas.
While I understand that you are using the word "mana" to express the idea of a depleteable resource such as seen in many crpgs, I'd question it being arbitrary (though I can see how Niven's use of it as a finite resource might but interpreted this way).
The word mana (Polynesian) means life force, the same as prana (Indian), qi/chi (Chinese), ki (Japanese), numen or ichor (Greco-Roman), and so forth. The distinction between mana, and say qi, is that mana might be present in objects, and I don't think qi or prana usually is.
Edit: The point being that using magic in a system based on the real concept of mana/prana/ki means that using it will deplete your life force, though in theory you might recover it in time. For example, in Indian thought, chakras draw in energy.
I'm also not fond of "druidic" as a description for all animistic natural magic.
I guess I'm wondering also, why you wanted to do all this? Anyone writing for a game system is either going to use the existing system (possibly with minor tweaks), or else write their own. In writing their own, they're probably coming up with something they feel is unique, and therefore fitting into neat little descriptive categories may sell it short.
For someone writing for writing, game mechanics do not constrain the setting, so a categorized description becomes even more limiting.
I get the idea for a setting summary to tell us if we want to read something. But is a magic system summary really going to serve a similar purpose?
Nevertheless, I'll try to apply the system to Eschaton to see how it holds up:
Anomaly high universal internal (or pervasive depending on whether white or black magic) focus (or ritual) life force (but not permanently, also with aspects of sanity or transformation, kind of, possibly headache/strength), controlled.
While, I'm not sure that simplifies things much--it feels like almost every category needs a bit of explanation or the labels are misleading.
I definitely think the Limit may need some work. Perhaps simply a "draining" category might be better--to represent the physical and mental fatigue it causes (whether by loss of mana or some other non-specified effect).
Quote from: PhoenixWhile I understand that you are using the word "mana" to express the idea of a depleteable resource such as seen in many crpgs, I'd question it being arbitrary (though I can see how Niven's use of it as a finite resource might but interpreted this way).
And that's my point, any system can or cannot be arbitrary depending on the observer, particularly because of the negative connotations of "arbitrary." You run the risk of having "arbitrary" be a stand-in for "a magic system that doesn't make sense to me."
Quote from: Polycarp!Quote from: PhoenixWhile I understand that you are using the word "mana" to express the idea of a depleteable resource such as seen in many crpgs, I'd question it being arbitrary (though I can see how Niven's use of it as a finite resource might but interpreted this way).
And that's my point, any system can or cannot be arbitrary depending on the observer, particularly because of the negative connotations of "arbitrary." You run the risk of having "arbitrary" be a stand-in for "a magic system that doesn't make sense to me."
I agree, though I would also agree with Rael. It is possible to have a system where the restriction is arbitrary. Game balance says X spells per day. I'm not too tired (etc.) when I run out, I just run out.
Hence why I added it. It was very seriously "3.X doesn't make sense to me." :P
As you may or may not know, I've been away for awhile, so obviously i have little chance to update or respond to this thread. So I'm reviving it now.
Now i just have to read all the comments.
EDIT: Looking at the limit category, doesn't it just provide us with more trouble than information? On further reflection I think we should either remove the category entirely, or just call magic either Limited or not limited, with the latter category involving all magic forms that don't require some extra toll on the body or the mind (so most RPG magic falls in the latter category).
And Phoenix, primarily i just did this for fun, with the secondary objective being to make a functional community standard. Now, of course any form will require some generalization to make anything fit in it, but this hopefully doesn't constrain people's creativity in any way. It's meant as much to get a quick overview as it is meant to incite interest.
We can do that but then we have to reword all the other powers. Taking an example my campaign falls solidly on limited, without it I could not place it anywhere else without a rewording in the other power levels.
I'm really not sure i get your point? How would changes in one category affect the others? And looking back at your examples, they mostly differ by way of their casting method don't they? Not so much on the toll (can anybody come up with a better word than limited to describe that you must "pay" in some way?)
I don't know what's not to get and can't really explain it any better than how I already have.
I just can't see how removing one category would necessitate the renaming of all others?
I didn't say they need to be renamed I said they needed to be "reworded" in order to fill the gap created.
thought i would bump the old classifying magic thread seeing as we are trying to classify settings atm :)
This is a bit more complicated, isn't it? Still, I like the ideas... Crazy to think how different magic can really be setting to setting, book to book.
Well, duh. Magic is only limited by one's imagination :)
Yeah, but there are still visible genres and the like just like in litterature or settings
This is very interesting. Thanks for bumping it.
QuoteLIMIT
Unrestrained: This magic can be used without restriction.
Sanity: This magic slowly drives you insane.
Lifeforce: This magic ages you prematurely or otherwise permanently drains your body.
Strength: Using this magic has a physical toll, like strenuous exercise.
Headache: Using this magic requires intense mental focus that drains the user's energy.
Arbitrary: This magic simply ceases to work if used too often. (mana magic goes here)
Transformation: This magic slowly turns the user into something else.
What about magic that is restrained by killing other people? You can only cast magic by draining life forces.
And 2- what about the Runelords' magic? where you can take speech, or glamour from others by placing a brand on them? And how some can act as foci for the power to reach you.
(Just some more things to add... :))
I think i need a clarification on both.
The first, are you saying that it can only be used to kill people or that if you for example were to shape water into a small hill you would have to drain people in the vicinity?
The second one i haven't heard of. When you say speech, do you mean that you increase your own speech skill or change your voice or just that you rob the person of it by placing a runic "lock" on him? And how does the foci thing work? A brand that allows the runelord to reach through the branded when using his powers?
For the first, yes. "if you for example were to shape water into a small hill you would have to drain people in the vicinity?" That is a type of limit.
Oh, the Runelords are a bestselling series- and begins very uniquely.
Yes, you increase your own speech skill, or glamour, or speed by robbing the other person of it by placing a runic lock... but there is a limit to the amount of locks (forcibles) that can be placed on one person, so instead of direct 1-1; some "Runelords" use foci- and get volunteers to serve as conduits for the power.
Example:
XXXXXXXXX---->Y------>Z
AAAAAAAAA---->A------>Z
It is interesting.
--
Another one:
LIMIT- The more power you use, the weaker it gets. There is a finite amount of magic within each person. So you have to do increasingly complicated rituals to get the same result. OR you just "burn out" after your number is exerted (like the amount of eggs in a woman...)
Another one: From Watt-Evans' Ethshar's Warlockry.
LIMIT: The more you use, the stronger the call comes to go off to the Source of Magic. Once you use too much, you have to go to the source of magic and disappear...
power: The more you use, the stronger you get- just by default (from channeling the power). [That might be a copy of what you have already]
The last two and the lifeforce one i can figure in, but how would you represent the Runelord-magic?
added the side effects group (which is in parentheseses because it only applies sometimes) with three traits , and the connection and supply traits in two of the other categories.
Also, i think you can adequately describe the runelord magic with "limited [ability] connection runic arbitrary art" based on my current knowledge. With arbitrary being the amount of people you can imprint.
Does it look good?