The Setting Template on my main page works and the Category:Settings functions properly, however nothing beyond this seems to work. If I edit the main page, at the bottom is a long list of "Templates Used" in red - clicking on them routes to a page that hasn't been created. However, the templates referred to are the links to other pages in the setting embedded in the main page which do direct properly when clicked on in the page itself. Further, I can't seem to get any subcategories to actually be recognized as such; "Category:PC Races" is used at the bottom of all six race descriptions - The box at the bottom of the pages show Categories: Panisadore | PC Races, and if I click on PC Races part it shows the category and all six pages under it, while if I click on the Panisadore half it goes to that category, shows all pages (including the 6 PC Race Pages) but *not* the PC Races subcategory - I can find no way to get the two to actually relate to each other in any fashion. Sadly, the (externally linked) Editing Help is utterly unintelligible to me, hence completely useless. I'm trying to get the various pages categorized and organized so they can be navigated easily but have not been able to accomplish a damn thing. At this point the volume of material is becoming unwieldy without some sort of organization and means of referencing and navigating through it - any additions would become confusing to the reader making use of the wiki less than practical - creating trouble understanding material rather than making it more accessible and therefore pointless to me to "use" the wiki for the setting (when I find myself unable to use it in any practical fashion.) Any help would be greatly appreciated.
After wandering around rather aimlessly in pages linked from Editing Help I finally stumbled upon a page that had a link to info on Categories. The link was found 2 or 3 steps beyond the initial help page which gives absolutely no indication that any discussion of the topic is available. If someone were trying to sell me a copy a MediaWiki on the claim that it organizes information easily and clearly I would have shown them the door long ago - it does the exact opposite with it's own information! It's by far the worst e documentation I've ever encountered!
I had trouble getting category page edits to "stick"-- I would click on a red category link, click "save changes" without adding text (since all I wanted was the actual links to pages in that category, not my own commentary), and find that no changes had actually been saved.
I discovered through trial and error that "blank" category pages like that are not saved, and at least one character has to be typed into the text field for it to work. I generally use " " as the content for category pages. It's the HTML character code to produce a blank space, like pressing the spacebar, but deliberate enough that browsers don't reduce it out.
I am pretty proud of the categories set up for the Jade Stage wiki stuff. Feel free to take a look at the code that produces it, if you like, or to ask me more specific questions about what you're trying to do and the problems you're encountering.
Trying to see how it's been actually structured has been an exercise in frustration - no body's main pages really give any indication of further structure and trying to see how categories are actually built upon each other generally is only successful if I happen to click on a category statement at the bottom of an arbitrary page that happens to link to a subcategory page. The most frustrating thing in any category page is that subcategories are all listed as if they're at the same level - i.e., the Panisadore category page shows Regions and Oceana as if they're =, there's no indication that Oceana (and three other subcategories listed) are actually subcategories of Regions. Ultimately I'm getting the impression that categories don't in fact really *do or accomplish* anything! I'm wanting someone reading the main page to have an easy time determining what follows beneath it and where - if they want to know about elves in my world I want them to be able to find the info easily. Linking is good to some degree, but too much and you get lost in a tangle of cross references that hide how info is related to each other. Sadly - reading yours or anyone else's code is useless to me - I don't understand it and in all honestly, don't want to learn to! What *would* help me is simply understanding how you are using categories to organize your info - and how you actually get any *real and functional* organization from doing so. All I seem to have accomplished this evening is to have little boxes that say "Category|Panisadore|xyz" at the bottoms of my pages which only *look like* they mean something. If the "structure" of the MediaWiki Help pages sis any indication, the software does not in fact provide any means of organizing information at all. (If I sound grumpy ,it's not with you. After over a week of constantly trying to make some headway, I'm reaching the point of being utterly disgusted with the whole thing and growing more inclined to take the material off the wiki than add more to it. . .)
I fixed the PC races issue for you.
Add [[Category:Pasindore]] to the subcategory page as desired to make it appear as a subcategory in pasindore cat page. (make sense :)?)
Categories don't really structure your wiki that much. What they do do is allow your reader to click the category if he's interested in that topic and see other topics related to it.
For Eclipse I only use one category page because there would only be one page in each subcategory.
For the Mythology Resource database, I use more. For example, the subcategory Germanic Myth.
Yeah, using categories does not do anything like creating a site tree of any kind, and most readers and not going to use your categories to navigate the wiki information. Site navigation is going to be made easier by a very well-made main page (note: mine is terrible, and I need to fix that), and by the use of a boatload of links.
You might also want to try making a few "navigation" pages-- for example, a "Nations" page that contains little information of its own, but provides links to all the nations in your setting, with perhaps a little more information to help the reader figure out where to go next.
Subcategories are listed equally with their parent categories at the bottom of each page, yes. They seem only to be useful if you want a shorthand way of category designation. For example, if "Campaign XYZ's Cities" is a subcategory of "Campaign XYZ's Geography," then placing a page into the Cities category will automatically place it into the Geography category as well. Beyond that, I'm not sure subcategories do anything at all.
As for how I use categories, I often use the "Category:Jade Stage" page as an index of sorts. (I have it open right now in a separate browser tab, actually.) I find it useful to have a complete, alphabetical list of all the pages I've put on the wiki, because it lets me see what I have and haven't included, and it lets me navigate quickly.
The various subcategories are ways of sorting things. Sometimes I don't want to see the whole list, just the JS wiki pages that deal with magic, or with nations, or with dwarves, or whatever. Readers other than myself can also navigate this way. Not that I really expect them to most of the time, but the option is there.
Maybe the most useful trick I have involves putting a category in a template page. I have a "Jade Stage Stub" template that I stick on articles that are woefully unfinished-- little more than placeholders. The template is in the "Jade Stage Incomplete Pages" category-- which means that every page that includes that template is in the category as well. This means that when I get into the mood to clean house a bit, it's easy to find a complete and automatically-updating list of pages (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Jade_Stage_Incomplete_Pages) that I feel are unfinished.
[blockquote=LC]Yeah, using categories does not do anything like creating a site tree of any kind, and most readers and not going to use your categories to navigate the wiki information. Site navigation is going to be made easier by a very well-made main page (note: mine is terrible, and I need to fix that), and by the use of a boatload of links[/blockquote]
Doing the exact same thing for the same reason on my main PB wiki, and realizing that it will have to be here as well. The larger the setting, the more this becomes absolutely critical. I have more pages that you cannot get to except through a fourth level link...
Quote from: http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Jade_Stage_Incomplete_Pageslist of pages[/url] that I feel are unfinished.
Yeah, I stole that from you - very useful. :)
Of course one derivative of Murphy's Law is very much in evidence - I bitched loudly and publicly about being completely unable to do certain things in the wiki and then stumbled blindly onto a reference telling me how to do it. Help pages remain astonishingly bad and certain details are entirely absent, only to be discovered largely by accident.
It's becoming more evident that I need to also pre-edit my writing for the the medium. Obviously I'm not writing specifically for it - the recent Salis Freeport material is up to 35 pgs in OpenOffice Writer - as presented in the forums so far it really doesn't lend itself to electronic publishing at all - it's not broken into lots of little discreet bite sized info-crackers which can be consumed in any order and pretty well comprehended entirely in isolation from each other. It's that last facet that I find particularly repugnant about the medium - it lends to the false assumption that things are entirely unrelated to other things and can be comprehended and understood without reference to anything else. Linking these data canapes only partially addresses this since readers are beginning to approach e-material *with* links as if the latter are merely optional features - the article is consumed like a cracker which can be perfectly adequate alone - linked information is merely viewed then as a menu of spreads to add to it, all, any or none, as the reader pleases. This would be okay *if* a subject can be covered in the space of a couple of screens of data. Few subjects really can however, and the medium is beginning to encourage people to believe that they do anyway. It's also being misused by those who understand the trend, like political spin doctors. If you can feed the public a pithy screenfull, many now will happily assume that they grasp the whole subject and *don't need to look any deeper*.
Okay, ranting about the dumbing down of humanity aside, my main page in particular needs some revision. The Deities and Orders and Societies sections lend themselves very well to wiki formatting since each entry is relatively short and they can be clustered readily (partially done already). I'll be crosslinking the two sections over the next week or so, where Associated Orders are already listed for Deities I'm turning them into links, and likewise for constituent churches listed under each Order. It took countless hours to find how to use a pipe in the link to a subsection to get it to only display the subheader on the page rather than a long string in the middle of a sentence like "they also confer with various Orders and Societies#Druid Groves on matters of mutual interest. . ." Inability to prevent that from occurring nearly had me eliminating links from various sections since they were pointless if they made the section itself illegible. At this point it's simply time consuming and repetitive - however I think the clarity of information in each entry is worth it, Primordials (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Primordials).
LC - how are you utilizing this "stub template"? It sounds to me like it would be more effective than what I've been doing so far: Inserting "WiP" at the top of such pages. . . Now that I've got the categories working I can at least navigate through my own stuff readily with them (before I was having to click on "my contributions" and scroll down till I found the one I wanted to edit. . .) and the fact that all pages show up under Panisadore regardless of if they're buried under layers of subcategories is actually helpful.
To properly implement a "stub" template like I and LC have done, you need to first create a template called "Panisadore Stub," and format it to say whatever you want ("This page isn't yet finished, yaddah, yaddah, blah, blah"), and then you add on the template page:
[[Category:Panisadore Stub]]
Just add that template to the top/bottom of any incomplete Panisadore pages, and you'll have a full index soon of stubs.
hm - I'll have to see if I can make sense of how to actually create a template - the only one I use is Setting|Panisadore - which I essentially created by blindly following the instructions in Page Creation Information and really don't understand how it works - further experimentation with it and category pages has made it clear that I have actually grossly misunderstood how it works (See User Talk, I think I've managed to clarify a lot of what has been confusing me - I mean describing my confusion more clearly, not clearing up the things that I'm confused about. . . :morons: )
Next question - "the template page"? what/where is this ?? It's becoming obvious that there are numerous "special pages" which don't act anything like the normal wikitext pages I've been tearing my hair out trying to format and categorize so they can be found. Sadly MediWiki seems to assume that you already know all about these things (especially the fact that they exist in the first place) before you start trying to do anything. I have been blithely proving that assumption to be just as incorrect as MediaWiki has been proving to be the case with my assumptions. . .
Good questions - a template is simply a page that gets transposed into another page. It can have variables that fill in (such as the Template:Location), or it can be just a static image/filler/text area (such as Template:Jade_Stage_Banner). To access a template page, just type in Template:Name_Of_Template at the top in place of where a page name normally goes.
A lot of us have created setting banners for the top of our pages, which include links to various other pages within our setting, as well as copyright information, and the Template:Setting template - yes, you can have a template within a template.
I would start by just creating a page-width box at the top of the page that says "Panisadore" (or something like that) that is pretty simple, perhaps along the lines of the Template:CeruleanBrowser (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Template:CeruleanBrowser). Just copy all the formatting in that one to a new template called "Template:Panisadore_Header" (or something along those lines), and change the links, images, etc to match your own. Once you do that, you can just add {{Panisadore_Header}} to the top of each of your pages, and it will have that header at the top of each of your pages.
Maybe sparkletwist will drop by and give a better explanation :)
Quote from: http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Template:Jade_Stage_BannerTemplate:Jade_Stage_Banner[/url].) If you change the text just once in the template, it automatically changes on every page that the template includes (useful whenever I decide to add a link to my nav bar, for example.)
Templates can include other things, also. Since {{Setting|Jade Stage}} needs to be on all of my pages, I just put it once into Template:Jade_Stage_Banner, and I never have to worry about it again-- it's automatically included in every page that has the banner. If I add [[Category:Jade_Stage_Incomplete_Pages]] to Template:Jade_Stage_Stub (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Template:Jade_Stage_Stub), it puts all the pages that include that template into that category.
I'm linking these pages so you can take a look at the actual code if you want to. Click "Edit," take a look, even copy/paste the code into your own templates and change "Jade Stage" to "Panisadore" every time it appears, if you want to. (It's how I made mine, stealing from Ishy's Shadowfell stuff. :yumm: )
Quotehm - I'll have to see if I can make sense of how to actually create a template
right here![/i]"
When you look at you page after saving or previewing, instead of "{{Template:Snargash}}", you should see the contents of Template:Snargash. It will just say, "My name is Snargash Moonclaw, and I am awesome!"
And that is how you will know that not only can you make templates from scratch, you can implement them as well.
Just remember that a template is nothing more than a tiny wiki page you can stick wherever you want. There are tricks you can do with them, like adding categories and other templates (like we've already talked about) or even little fill-in-the-blank sections, but it's still just a mini-page you can stick wherever you want.
Feel free to ask, of course, if you have other questions.
I hope this is a helpful description. I am trying to break things down more simply than the MediaWiki tutorial, but please do not misinterpret my tone as being patronizing or condescending-- that's absolutely not my intent.
Quote from: IshmaylQuote from: http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Jade_Stage_Incomplete_Pageslist of pages[/url] that I feel are unfinished.
While not necessarily bad, one side effect is that the template itself appears on the category page. It makes it easier for others to find your template, but, on say wikipedia, you wouldn't normally expect that kind of meta-page to appear as a topic.
Yeah, I stole that from you - very useful. :)
Quote from: Luminous CrayonNow find another wiki page. Use a talk page if you're bashful, or make a new page. Put the text "{{Template:Snargash}}" somewhere on that page. This is how you tell the wiki, "Go find that template, and include its contents right here!"
When you look at you page after saving or previewing, instead of "{{Template:Snargash}}", you should see the contents of Template:Snargash. It will just say, "My name is Snargash Moonclaw, and I am awesome!"
Not to throw confusion in, but I've never actually done it that way. I don't type {{Template:Snargash}}, and I'm not even sure that works (I haven't tested yet). The funky brackets are actually the syntax for the word "template," so to put a template on any page, you don't even need the first part. If you have a template created somewhere called "Template:Goober," then putting {{Goober}} on any page will do the template.
Hey, I didn't know that. I'm guessing it works either way, since all my templates are called up by {{Template:Whatever}}, and they seem to work okay.
[blockquote[LC]
Would you mind linking the reference you found so useful? I'm still mostly groping about in the dark myself, you see.[/blockquote]
While the actual page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words) may as well be quoting Stephen Hawking in hieroglyphics for all the use I can make of it, the menu on the left of it will link to explanations of a number of things (in the case referred to, Categories) which are useful. However, as Ishy can attest (from my actions based upon that info) the link still could stand to be more informative. . .
Being tired and about to head home, I'll delve more into these matters tomorrow. - will probably block quote yesterday's discussion with Ishy from my User Talk page, to try and present/figure out how to do what I was trying to without creating the problem which resulted from my doing so. . . (Sorry Ish - I didn't see what was occurring until I clicked on All Categories from the Wiki Main Page. . .)
Actual conclusions to my confusion italicized near bottom and problem/question reformulated from them in bold
[blockquote[Sunday User Talk]Snargash, I am changing some of your categories to include your campaign setting name in them, so that there's no confusion when someone else inevitably also wants to use a "Races" category, etc. --Ish 20:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay - I'm still experiencing a bit of confusion as to when the use of the Setting Template on a page handles prevents that from happening - my impression had been that using it on all my pages made it unnecessary to clarify further - everything automatically referred to the setting only. . .--Snargash Moonclaw 21:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I'm going to write up a tutorial soon on how to use categories. However, I would recommend that all your category titles be changed to "Panisodore <Category Title>," so that when they show up in sub-categories, they will appear properly in alphabetical order. So, your categories "Power Groups (Pansidore)" should be changed to "Pansidore Power Groups," and the same should be done with other categories. --Ish 21:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
[edit] CATEGORIES
Snargash, ALL your categories should start with the word "Panisadore," so that they 1 - show up properly in alphabetical order, and 2 - disambiguate properly. Please don't create more categories without that. Thanks! --Ish
UUUUGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! THat's part of what I've been trying to prevent! If you click on the Category Panisadore under those circumstances ABSOLUTELY EVERYFREAKINGTHING is listed under the letter P! THat's not alphabetical order when the rest of the alphabet ceases to functionally exist!!! I want to be able to look under the letter R and immediately see "Races (panisadore)" and "Regions (Panisadore)" and click on them - not have to scroll down a page full of categories as
P
Panisadore aaa
Panisadore aba
Panisadore abb
. . .
Panisadore caa
. . .
Panisadore ad infinitum
until I finally locate
Panisadore Races
Are you saying that Races (Panisadore) won't disambiguate from Races (any other setting)? Under the conditions above setting up the categories becomes a complete waste (of over a week's worth of frustration and hair pulling just rtyiung to find out how to do the little bit that I've actually done). Further more, it's pointless since instead of organizing the information it simply clusters it up together even worse than if there are no categories beyond the setting itself.--Snargash Moonclaw 21:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
It does not become a waste, because the purpose of categories is not for each individual wiki user to have pretty, organized indexes - the purpose is for the entire wiki to be organized, and in the grand scheme of things (the whole wiki), organization works much better to have specific campaign settings listed out in the categories. I sympathize with you wanting your own special category pages just for Panisadore, but the categories are not for the individual, they're for the entire wiki. --Ish
I grasp the macro-level organizational priority - I'm finding myself confused as to how/if it works beyond that. I've been under the impression that a setting could be further organized (hence my question about disambiguation of "Races (x)" and "Races (y)" at the micro level by establishing through the templates that such internal (sub)organization was specific only to material utilizing the identifying template - I got this impression from the "Page Creation Information" page - the way that is written seems to imply that placing {{Setting|Panisadore}} on the page prevents the problems you're describing and permits the further organization within the setting. I guess the next question then becomes, "What does it actually do - and what does it specifically *not* do?" I'm not trying to be difficult here - I'm trying to clarify some of my fundamental conceptions/possible misconceptions - I may have been trying all along to do something that the wiki does not in fact do at all (or even intend to) which unfortunately constitutes the reason I was trying to put the setting into the wiki in the first place.--Snargash Moonclaw 22:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay - now going to All Categories from the Wiki Main Page and looking at "Races" I can see how the macro organization then displays subcategories by setting name. One thing that occurs in "All Categories" which I find counterproductive at various levels is displaying subcategories as if they are Level 1 categories as this conceals the structure and organization. This may be a matter of how I'm interpreting the info presented arising from the fact that I'm basically assuming/expecting category/subcategory structure to be essentially the same as classical outlining structure - in which case you don't list a topic as a Level I heading and a Level A heading and a Level 1 heading, etc. So I've been listing subcategories only under their immediate up-level category; e.g., Oceana ONLY lists [[Category:Regions (Panisadore)]] and NOT ALSO [[Category:Panisadore]], therefore Oceana does NOT appear among the subcategories of Panisadore - you have to first click on Regions (Panisadore) to see it and the other 3. On the other hand it looks like the Setting Template doesn't prevent a subcategory from appearing as a top level (All) category. I'm seeing the problem and now wondering if there is a way to accomplish both things - "Races (Panisadore)" also shows up as a top level category separate from "Races" which then lists the ""Setting" Races" subcategory discretely. Actually inserting the setting template in the edit screen of any category (at any level) along with the definition of its up level category seems to have no effect - so subcategories beneath Panisadore still appear as Top Level in All Categories. Perhaps this is desirable - my impression is that it clutters the information. The template does not appear to affect a category page in the same fashion it affects a wikitext page - I had been under the impression that it did. . .
Okay so instead - is there anyway to format category entries in the manner of [[Category: Panisadore *subcategory name goes here*]] such that a pipe or something essentially renders the word Panisadore invisible - it still acts as an operator to suppress ambiguity, but is ignored when listing (alphabetizing) the subcategories?--Snargash Moonclaw 23:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC) [/blockquote]
Right now All Categories looks like this:
. . .
# Help (14 members)
# Jade Stage (72 members)
# Jade Stage Boru (7 members)
# Jade Stage Cities (2 members)
# Jade Stage Cosmology (1 member)
# Jade Stage Creatures (2 members)
# Jade Stage Dwarves (11 members)
# Jade Stage History (1 member)
# Jade Stage Incomplete Pages (31 members)
# Jade Stage Individuals (3
. . .
# Portal (1 member)
# Power Groups (Panisadore) (2 members)
# Races (2 members)
# Races (Panisadore) (2 members)
# Regions (Panisadore) (4 members)
# Resonance (5 members)
# Shadowfell (1 member)
I'm wondering a couple of things about the All Categories list - notice that there is no Settings Category between Resonance and Shadowfell - Shouldn't there be one? The {{Setting| Your Setting Name}} template only establishes "Your setting name" as a category, "Settings" itself has not been created as a category to include the various Setting Names as categories. If I were to include the statement: [[Category:Settings]] in the page "Category:Panisadore" it would do this making Panisadore a 2nd level (sub) category. I would actually expect to be seeing this already in the same way that we have the first level category "Races" listing two "Setting Name Races" subcategories when you click it. This exists though because both subcategories include the statement: [[Category:Races]] in their category pages. This latter shows me why the categories are established Setting Name first - Races (Panisadore) should not be showing up in the All Categories list (sorry bout that Ish)- however, if I do that "Panisadore Races" will appear in All Categories as well as among subcategories of "Races" (just as the two inside "Races" show up in All. . . as well) - this is why I included part of the Jade Stage category entries - this at present is the most extensive example of 2nd and lower level categories appearing here as if 1st level categories. (Another effect will be shown below to illustrate what I'm trying to avoid within the Panisadore category and posed the bolded question in order to address. . .) The upshot here being that there are 114 entries in All Categories now - and of course many many more to come as people add more to the wiki. Not sure if everyone would agree, I would think though that this is quickly becoming unwieldy, whereas if All Categories showed only level 1 categories, e.g. "Settings," "Races," etc. it would be more useful - especially when we got up to hundreds of entries. Clicking "Settings" would then show an immediate list of Setting Names, "Races" would show Race pages by setting (like it oes now), etc. - providing a neat index to the wiki that can easily be delved into further. I like what the "Races" entry does - if I want to see how other setting treat the races this index puts links to that info together right in front of me to look at and compare - I don't have to go digging through each setting to find it - or find it hasn't been included in the wiki for the setting at this time.
At this point there is now a Level 1 "Settings" category - created just now precisely as I described above. Adding the statement "[[Category:Settings]]" to any setting category page (e.g., "Category:Jade Stage") will now include that setting category as (turning it into,) a subcategory of "Settings" rather than a Level 1 category.
As for the 2nd level "Setting Name" categories I'm wanting to find a way to use the proper "Setting Name Category X" syntax (e.g., [[Category:Panisadore Races]] rather than the problematic [[Category:Races (Panisadore)]] in such a way as will still produce this:
[blockquote[Category:Panisadore]Categories and pages under Panisadore Setting Template
Subcategories
There are 3 subcategories to this category.
P
* Power Groups (Panisadore)
R
* Races (Panisadore)
* Regions (Panisadore)[/blockquote]
Rather than this:
[blockquote[Category:Jade Stage]Subcategories
There are 19 subcategories to this category.
J
* Jade Stage Boru
* Jade Stage Cities
* Jade Stage Cosmology
* Jade Stage Creatures
* Jade Stage Dwarves
* Jade Stage History
J cont.
* Jade Stage Incomplete Pages
* Jade Stage Individuals
* Jade Stage Magic
* Jade Stage Nations
* Jade Stage Objects
* Jade Stage Organizations
* Jade Stage People
J cont.
* Jade Stage Places
* Jade Stage Politics
* Jade Stage Races
* Jade Stage Simocs
* Jade Stage Technology
* Jade Stage Tribes, Families, and Clans
[/blockquote]
At this point the Jade Stage Category page ceases to provide a useful index since it only consists of the letter J. . . I'm hoping that some sort of pipe can be used to suppress the setting name needed in the syntax from appearing, permitting the strings following the setting name to be alphabetized.
I discovered the pipe trick to clean up the appearance of links to page subheadings - I've been using it in reformatting the various Deity entries to link to their Associated Orders so that:
[blockquote[line from deity entry including links to subheaders in Orders and Societies page] '''Associated Orders: '''{{L|Orders_and_Societies#Druid Groves|Druid Groves}}, {{L|Orders_and_Societies#Turners of the Wheel|Turners of the Wheel}}, ({{L|Orders_and_Societies#Wild Hunt|Wild Hunt}})
[/blockquote]
Actually appear discretely as [blockquote[actual entry, italics added] Dashin
Title: Mother of the Myriad Things
Associated Phenomenon: Nature
Alignment: N(G)
Rank: Greater
Race: All
Gender: F
Symbol: Golden beehive on a green disk
Weapon: Sickle
Totem: Bee
Portfolio: Nature
Domains: Animal, Plant, Protection, Healing, Destruction, Repose
Associated Orders: Druid Groves, Turners of the Wheel, (Wild Hunt)
Description: While often anthropomorphized, she is generally considered by her worshipers as a much more abstract being; perceived as the source of all that exists. In conjunction with her husband, Wu Jai, she is viewed as the receptive yin principle giving form to the energizing yang principle which he represents. While nature is essentially neutral, most view her as good, particularly in light of her opposition to her sister Gaurashiage.
[/blockquote]
Everything before the pipe | (L|Orders_and_Societies#Druid Groves) is invisible and whatever follows it is displayed. I'll be doing exactly the same over time linking the various Orders entries on that page back to the deities whose churches are involved in the order. This is one of the things (as LC was saying) that a wiki really kicks ass in. Time consuming, but someone checking out the deities can immediately go to relevant info and likewise immediately go back to say, another deity involved in the same order.
Ishy - for now I'm going to leave the setting categories (Panisadore) be without creating any further ones, (I know your last PM said to just keep doing them the way I was since a fix/change is in the works) so we can see if the above can be accomplished. Besides, for now, I have a lot of editing to do in the Deities and Orders... pages to make the initial standardized tabulatory data blocks legible and interlink them all.
Thanks to all for your patience and tolerance!
To answer the "Shadowfell" and "Resonance" question above - I can't speak for Resonance, but Shadowfell no longer exists, and thus doesn't need to be in the Campaign Settings category.
I saw that you created a "Campaigns" category. There is actually already a "level 1" category called "Campaign Settings," which I changed yours to fit into - all the other settings are already in that one.
ah - I hadn't looked closely at all 114 category names. . . k' and thanks - until I looked at these various category pages I never realized I needed to put the statement into the Panisadore category page - I thought that the use of the {{Setting|Panisadore}} template was doing that already.
(I hadn't been asking about the Resonance and Shadowfell categories - that was the place I expected to see a "Settings" category listed alphabetically - St. Murphy of course has just demonstrated what I meant about invoking him - the category in fact being there as "Campaign Settings". . .)
Snargash, it will put them in the page automatically, there's just one step that has yet to be done for you. There's this template called "List of Settings" (here: http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Template:ListOfSettings) that you have to add your setting to. I have done that, so all your links should work properly now, and all your pages that include {{Setting|Panisadore}} should now include the category page at the bottom.
I'm afraid I'm not following you here - the URL goes to a page that hasn't been created yet and I don't know how to add my setting to the template (although if I understand you correctly you have now done that for me already). Part of the reason being I don't actually understand how the syntaxial components of even the {{Setting|Panisadore}} template actually function - using it has been a case of blindly following instructions in the Page Creation Information page. At present it is added to all my pages (per said instructions) but I don't see anything different with them today reflecting whatever change you have made. I do understand how the template provides disambiguation of wikitext pages - ensuring any of my pages which duplicate the name of a page in another setting are properly navigated to when using links, although I have also included the setting name in wikitext pages with common names - e.g. Deities (Panisadore), as also suggested in the Page Creation Info. I'm missing something here but can't quite point to what.
Meh, here's the url:
http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Template:ListOfSettings
And don't worry about it now, it's already set up, you don't need to fix anything.
And now, if you go to the bottom of any of your pages that have {{Setting|Panisadore}} at the top, you will see that your page links to Category:Campaign Settings page.
SHOOT, ignore that, I'm confusing myself now from brain farts. Okay, when you set up your {{Setting|Panisadore}} template at the top of each page, it will automatically put that page into Category:Panisadore. Only the main page for any campaign setting needs to be in Category:Campaign Settings, and I have set yours up appropriately.
Ah okay. Don't be confusing the Nunk - it's too easy to be any fun!
I do like the fact that all pages show up in the Panisadore category page, even though further subcategories are nested (behind/beneath) the next category up (since I only define them as belonging to that category and not any higher categories as well - it took me a while to figure this out and delete the higher category statements in the subcategory pages; initially I was including all statements and low level categories where showing up in all category pages up to [[. . .Panisadore. . .]]) and now only show up when you click on the appropriate category containing them. This can make these single level category pages very useful as an index for searching - any page can be jumped to directly from "Panisadore" if you wish (you don't have to go digging through the subcagtegories to find it if you know you want the page on elves) but if you are looking for how they fit together the subcategory indexes will hopefully provide a sort of ToC as an alphabetical outline to show you what all is subsumed in a given broad concept. At this point the Category pages are how I navigate through my own material in order to edit or add to it. (I had been clicking on My Contributions to find a link to the page I wanted but that has become far too cluttered to be practical anymore - hence my choosing now to impose some organization on the material before it gets even more unwieldy.) It just gets confusing since category pages are treated differently than text pages. That's exactly why I had been trying to name the subcategories as [[Category: XYZ (Panisdaore]] because that is how the WikiText pages are named: "Deities (Panisadore)" works one way (as desired) as the name for the (disambiguated) WikiText page but much differently as the name for the category that subsidiary pages to that page (like "Primordials" or "Evil Deities,") belong in :wtf: . . . (I really am slowly figuring some of this stuff out :explode: )
You might seriously consider a menu template like you see used on Jade Stage or Eclipse (or the Mythology Resource Page). You can add the {{Setting|Panisadore}} template to your Panisadore menu template and it will automatically be applied to all pages. Plus it makes navigation easier, especially for your readers.
:stupid:
I'm seconding Phoenix' statement - navigation bars are extremely useful.
Here is where I fall utterly out of my depth I'm afraid. Looking at the Eclipse Main Page (clicking from the wiki Main Page list of settings) I see the menu that has been placed just below the really cool graphic banner (in light of my comments about pretty pages doing tricks I'm not being sarcastic - it really looks cool, I'm just too lazy to ever bother creating or modifying one for my own page) however, clicking on edit only reveals:
[blockquote[Eclipse mainpage menubar template and structure/code is concealed somewhere within:]__NOEDITSECTION__{{EclipseBanner}}{{TOC_Right}}[/blockquote]
Being both shorter overall and a bit more informative in the edit window, [blockquote[Jade Stage Main Page provides me with this example]{{Jade_Stage_Banner}}
The Jade Stage: Main Page ==
Welcome to the Jade Stage wiki! This page marks a new attempt to archive and present information related to the Jade Stage, a fictional world painstakingly detailed by [[User:Luminous Crayon|Luminous Crayon]].
=== Getting Started ===
Readers new to the Jade Stage may wish to begin by browsing the {{L|overview}}, or by reading about the most strongly-accented {{L|themes}} emphasized by the world. Alternately, specific words, phrases, people, and locations can be looked up alphabetically in the {{L|glossary|glossary of terms}}.
{| class="wikitable" border="2" cellpadding="5" align="center" style="text-align:center; background:#ddffcc; color:#113300"
|+ ''pages by category''
|-
| {{L|Races}}
| {{L|Politics}}
| {{L|Religion}}
|-
| {{L|Objects}}
| {{L|Magic}}
| {{L|History}}
|}
{{Template:Jade_Stage_Footer}}
[[Category:Campaign Settings]]
[/blockquote]
While I recognize the 6 link statements which make the buttons on the menu functional (and provide their labels) none of the rest is clear to me. Well, I do recognize the color settings as things I can safely ignore/leave out, but the actual meaty bits of this table set up might as well be written in Cyrillic for all the sense I can make of them. This is why when Sparkletwist and others have suggested I just copy something from a page doing what I want/like and just play with it I can only scratch my head - I haven't got the first clue where/how to begin to play with what.
[blockquote[Phoenix]You might seriously consider a menu template like you see used on Jade Stage or Eclipse (or the Mythology Resource Page). You can add the {{Setting|Panisadore}} template to your Panisadore menu template and it will automatically be applied to all pages. Plus it makes navigation easier, especially for your readers.[/blockquote]
I'm not being deliberately obtuse here, I really have no idea how to do (or even quite what you mean by) anything you just said there. I don't have a Panisadore menu template nor really any idea how to create one (as distinct from some other form of template) to which I might add the {{Setting|Panisadore}} template. . . The concepts/logic involved in these things is not unfamiliar (and I'm certainly capable of following/processing/making creative use of) the principals once defined and understood (the logic and concepts are the same as writing old DOS batch files, pipes etc.) however much of the terminology and syntax is entirely unfamiliar (and what is the same as used back then are terms and syntax I haven't actually used in about 15 years and have no references now to work with like I did then. . .) In DOS I could at least type "command" /? and get a list of available switches which I could then look up in order to find out what they did - here I can't even look up the switches/parameters of things that I might fiddle with because I have no reference by which to simply find out what the variables even are which exist and are available to me to manipulate. I'm really not as dumb as I must be coming across by now - I simply don't have any of the tools which I know quite well I need in order to learn how to manipulate the tools which the wiki offers - actually to even find out just what the tools the wiki does and does not offer actually are. . . Hence my constant bitching about the MediaWiki Help wiki: in past experience as single decently written and indexed manual was sufficient for me to very quickly answer any questions I had and work out how to accomplish whatever I needed - even if I knew absolutely nothing about the system/language/environment whatever prior to trying to get it to do that certain thing. I have never found e-documentation half as informative or as swift as even twice the speed with which I can accomplish this with halfway decent hardcopy documentation. (and MediaWiki Help is the worst example of e-documentation in this regard I've ever encountered - honestly, it really blows my mind how bad it is!)
Thank you for your patience and consideration.
No problem SM.
Quote from: http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Template:EclipseBannerThis [/url]is the actual EclipseBanner template file.
It has the following text [quote="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0"
|- valign="middle" align="center"
| width="100%" style="border: 0px; color: #000; background-color: #FFFFFF; vertical-align: top; padding: 0em;" | [[Image:eclipselogo.jpg]]
''Sun--Moon--Man--God--Apostasies--Apotheosis''
|}
{| width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0"
|- valign="middle" align="center"
| width="100%" style="border: 0px; color: #000; font-size:85%; background-color: #FFFFFF; vertical-align: top; padding: 0em;" |
[[Eclipse]] *
{{L|History}} *
{{L|Solar Empire|The Solar Empire}} *
{{L|Lunar Empire|The Lunar Empire}} *
{{L|Locations}} *
{{L|Cast}}
|}
]
''Sun--Moon--Man--God--Apostasies--Apotheosis''
|}
Creates a table with the picture "eclipselogo.jpg" and includes my tagline. (I didn't set this up, I stole the code from CeruleanSaga--I don't understand enough about wikicode to do it from scratch).
{| width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0"
|- valign="middle" align="center"
| width="100%" style="border: 0px; color: #000; font-size:85%; background-color: #FFFFFF; vertical-align: top; padding: 0em;" |
[[Eclipse]] *
{{L|History}} *
{{L|Solar Empire|The Solar Empire}} *
{{L|Lunar Empire|The Lunar Empire}} *
{{L|Locations}} *
{{L|Cast}}
This is a table beneath the banner and tagline setting up the menu. If you want something similar, copy the text and replace the "L" links with your own text.
Because of the Setting template, if you have a document called Panisadore (History) you don't even have to change those links. The L template automatically disambiguates to the right page.
Good luck!
For a look at a simple but well-done side menu, check out Eclipse's Oververse template (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Template:Oververse) (the member Eclipse, not my setting).
You can copy his code and just fill in the specific names you want with Panisadore stuff.
Understanding is overrated ;)
Thanks for the explanation - that gives me material to work with - without of a manual I *can* get quite a lot out of a primer if derived from a reasonably expansive Rosetta Stone. . . Templates and tables will both be useful - as can be seen from how I've been brute forcing the individual Deities entries to get
[blockquote[This raw entry]4 Renosha
Title: Associated Phenomenon: The twin comets Alignment: LN Rank: Demigod Race: Human Gender: F Symbol: A red rose with prominent thorns held in eagle's talons Weapon: Wakazashi Totem: Portfolio: Family, Home, Marriage, (Familial) Property Domains: Home, Law, Community, Healing Associated Orders: The Bright Suns Description: Renosha represents the ideals and virtues associated with the spouse of a samurai, who manages the family and household, as well as the property granted by the lord whom her spouse serves. It should be noted that the two roles are considered equal and not exclusive to either gender, being the complimentary functions of a proper, married couple. [/blockquote]
[blockquote[to look like this when formatted]1 Dashin
Title: Mother of the Myriad Things
Associated Phenomenon: Nature
Alignment: N(G)
Rank: Greater
Race: All
Gender: F
Symbol: Golden beehive on a green disk
Weapon: Sickle
Totem: Bee
Portfolio: Nature
Domains: Animal, Plant, Protection, Healing, Destruction, Repose
Associated Orders: Druid Groves, Turners of the Wheel, (Wild Hunt)
Description: While often anthropomorphized, she is generally considered by her worshipers as a much more abstract being; perceived as the source of all that exists. In conjunction with her husband, Wu Jai, she is viewed as the receptive yin principle giving form to the energizing yang principle which he represents. While nature is essentially neutral, most view her as good, particularly in light of her opposition to her sister Gaurashiage. [/blockquote]
(the forum editor is suppressing the wiki markup bolding of field names in both examples) I've had to use a space after each <return> (at start of each next line) to get each line to remain discrete, and as a result the tabular field section at the start of each entry now shows up in a box the wiki automatically produces, however the original word processor text has multiple fields on each line using <tab>s to spread it out. Current form in the wiki is quite legible, placing multiple fields on a single line via a table will simple reduce page length and help entries with longer descriptive text remain within a single window frame when read. (Took months for me to even find out how to get it to look like it does now!) Some other entries do have material originally presented in a table format proper though that I've had a hell of a time getting to look even vaguely understandable
[blockquote[partial Orders and Societies entry]8 Lyricists, (a.k.a., 'Those Damn Poets' in regions where they are particularly active), Formally: Trinitarians
Symbol: spiral triskelion of red, blue and green on a white disk Churches: Hebnaritath, Thelema Membership: R, L . . .
. . .Lyric clerics are divided among four Cantos, each of which is represented by a distinct color. Each Canto has a specific set of Domains and an associated weapon as follows:
Canto Strophe (Shalireah) Antistrophe (Hebnaritath) Epode (Thelema) Weapon
Orange Creation Destruction Force Staff
Yellow Sun Darkness Balance Unarmed
Black Healing Death Fate Fencing blade
Purple Renewal Time Liberation Chain
[/blockquote]
has been the best I could do with it.
Again - thanks, now I can play with the pieces and see what I can do with them.
Is there a template similar to the side menu seen above, but with details that can be entered elsewhere from the code? I take for an example (and this is a reasonable idea of what I'm looking for) the 'Part of a series on...' in actual wikipedia (see //www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism for an example). If I was capable of coding it I would, but I'm just wondering whether there's one already floating about.
No, you would need to make a new template that you could just put on every page. Phoenix' suggestion of just copying the Oververse code and replacing things with your links is probably the best way to go.
Quote from: IshmaylNo, you would need to make a new template that you could just put on every page. Phoenix' suggestion of just copying the Oververse code and replacing things with your links is probably the best way to go.
Okay, I'll do that. Thanks, Ishy.
Snargash, if you want me to look into creating a banner/menu for you let me know. I'm not as up on formatting as Ish or sparkle, but I think I can get the basics going.
That would be helpful - thanks. I really just need something simple and clear along the same lines as the categories I've been trying to use which can be easily modified as more are added or changed. I can then copy it to deeper pages to produce sub-menus on them with links to more specific topics they encompass. The Intro (main) page will probably get trimmed and portions now in it moved a layer deeper as "General Info & Background" or the like. Including a "Page Index" link in all versions of the menu going to the Panisadore Category page and one in subsequent menus going to the designated (sub)category pages as indexes of relevant pages should make it easy to navigate. I can put "See Also" topics along with "References" & "External Links" as needed at the bottoms of any pages as in Wikipedia to navigate to pages in parallel category (e.g. Races/Cultures across to pertinent Geographical Regions/Nations/Locations, etc.)
Well, I was thinking of trying a simple right-side menu like Oververse.
But for what you're talking about, I think maybe the same kind of plan I had for Eschaton might work better: A top main menu for each broad category.
Then a separate template for a submenu in each category (I'd set up one to show you how).
The other option is a main menu which leads to portals, the way Ish has Memory Fading set up.
SM, I created the page "Template:Panisadore." I don't know enough about your setting to know what image to use, so I made generic stone-like text.
As far as your links, I've included a couple of types to show how it could work.
This section: [quote="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0"
|- valign="middle" align="center"
| width="100%" style="border: 0px; color: #000; font-size:85%; background-color: #FFFFFF; vertical-align: top; padding: 0em;" |
[[Introduction to Panisadore|Main Page]] ~
[[:Category:Regions (Panisadore)|Regions]] ~
{{L|Races}} ~
{{L|Panisadore Power Groups|Power Groups}}
|}[/quote]
creates the menu.
The first link goes to your main page so it should be good (I'd always call your main page just the name of your setting but it's your choice if you rename it--if you do, just change the link).
The second link shows you how to link directly to a category, which I think is what you wanted.
The {{L|Races}} is how it should work. But for this to work, you need to actually create a page called Panisadore (Races), not just a category (then add Category:Races at the bottom so it works syncs up with the rest of the wiki).
I'd suggest making each of your main menu categories as broad as possible while still specific enough to have a page for them.
For this to work, add {{Panisadore}} to the top of every page (you can replace {{Setting|Panisadore}} with this text since the Panisadore template applies the setting template. It also adds Category:Panisadore to all pages it's applied to, so you don't need to type that on every page.
You might also consider having no table of contents added to the template, since you're creating your own menus.
I created a very simple right floating submenu {{PanisadoreSociology}} with links to calendar and languages. That should show you how to create other such submenus for whatever broad categories you want to create. I didn't know if you actually wanted a Sociology category, but if you do, you can add a sociology page with links to the main menu.
My experience is that simpler is better when possible. I found with Eclipse, for example, I didn't need submenus.
Edit: Check it out on the Calendar (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar_%28Panisadore%29) page.
Ish personally likes his wiki pages having a unique look to them, so let's go with the Oververse method ;)
(Not to be a grouch or anything, but I (and others on the wiki) are trying to distinguish my wiki look from others).
Quote from: IshmaylIsh personally likes his wiki pages having a unique look to them, so let's go with the Oververse method ;)
(Not to be a grouch or anything, but I (and others on the wiki) are trying to distinguish my wiki look from others).
You mean you want me to change everything to a right menu, or use a right menu over portals for his submenu idea (which is slightly problematic in a wiki anyway).
Quote from: IshmaylIsh personally likes his wiki pages having a unique look to them,
It's been a while since I checked the Memory Fading wiki pages, but {expletive deleted} (http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/engrish-store_2007_4138338), they are gorgeous!
I was waiting for the conversion to finish before really looking them over. Different than the Shadowfell look?
Very polished.
Phoenix, all I'm talking about is the whole Portal look I have (and also the particular menu I designed on the front page), I'm trying to keep that look unique. The sidebar, and standard top headers, etc, etc, don't matter to me at all. In fact, the sidebar I created eons ago was actually just ripped from some wikipedia sidebar menu. I mean, I know it's not copyrighted or patented or anything, but I put a lot of work into giving the setting a defining look on the wiki, and hadn't really intended it to be just a template for every setting to use, you know? ;)
Yes, I get it. I'd feel the same way, I'm sure.
I've actually been working a bit more on SM's main menu, using a left-floating menu that I think captures his submenu desire more than a series of a menus will.
The menu is looking very good so far, but honestly, I think a right-floating menu works better. Left-menus make my eye automatically draw towards them - since in the western-reading world, we read left-to-right, and look left to begin things - and away from the content. I think a right-floating menu makes the menu be more of a menu, and less content-like, you know?
But honestly, it doesn't matter to me, that's just how I would probably go about it.
Nice header art, BTW
Also, and it's just a personal opinion more than anything, doesn't matter to me, but when I read Panisadore, I picture browns, reds, and kindof-green colors, not blue. But that's probably the least useful and important thing I can think of to say about it, so doesn't really matter! ;)
Those are easily fixed.
I haven't read the setting, but I'll go for a browner look on the menu.
I changed those to a woody color. But I don't much care for the default purple/blue link color on that background. Can that be overriden?
Oh yeah, I remembered why I originally set it left--in case he wanted to use the location template or other right-floating templates.
But I guess that doesn't really matter.
Wow - I've only got a couple of minutes to look at it today - but it looks great! I'll have to wait til I get back from Faerie Worlds tomorrow to delve into how it works. (My fiance is getting impatient with my being online even now. . .) THanks!!
BTW Ish - actually color impressions convey a lot back to me as to the setting's feel - and can give me a sense also of adjustments in "calibration" as I write when I look at what else needs including in the material. (Music/soundtrack impressions do likewise - I haven't been including soundtrack notes lately, I think I'll start doing so more.)
Phoenix, unfortunately, as far as I know, the only way to override the link/text colors is to change the css style for the theme, which is not something I want to mess with too much. Now, there may be changes that can be done within the div tags, but if so, I'm not aware of them.
You can put a span tag inside of your link.
{{L|link|<span style="blah blah">Text</span>}}
This could get to be tedious so if there's a lot of demand for it I could probably whip up a "color link" template.
Well, since it's just for his menu template, it could probably just be done once by hand, and then the template will be on every page. Probably not much need to make a template for that specifically, sparky :)