The Campaign Builder's Guild

Well I've been playing with the maps for Adveria for a long time, never quite happy with the outcome. After a flight I decided to try something else, but it still didn't come out to something I like.

So I bring it to the community:

Which do you like better?

[spoiler=Map1] (http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/74/world1terrainsk5.png) [/spoiler]

[spoiler=Map2] (http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/8459/world1preav8.png) [/spoiler]

Any thoughts? Advice?

I like Map2 best. It's less artistic, but easier to view. I do want to know why you left out, what I assume to be, the desert distinction that was on Map1?

As for advice, go read some of the stuff on the Campaign Cartographer's board. I've fiddled a little with what they have to teach, but I haven't been able to decide upon a format to utilize.

The things on map 2 look like they are for much smaller scale mapping.  Map 1 is probably better, in my opinion.

Map1 is the new one, so it has some additions that the old map didn't (mostly the deserty region)

I've looked at the Cartographer guild and didn't find anything useful.


I'm just getting frustrated with playing with the different textures and not getting anything that I like. :(

They both have a very "work in progress" feel, I think.  Maybe it is because nothing is labeled, maybe you just shouldn't be done tinkering yet.  Whatever the case, the water near the land looks far to light by my eyes.

Okay, for me, right now Map 1 is just a broken link, so I have no opinion on it yet.

Map 2 is very pretty, but for me to be complete it needs labels and to appear on a hex grid with a clearly marked scale of X number of miles to the hex.

I like map 2 better as it is much cleaner than map 1. Might I suggest you turn the faded gradient in the water into an actual height map of sorts showing stepped depths farther down into the ocean instead of one smooth gradient.

Question for you though. How much are you worried about making your maps realistic (note that some realism is important in order to get a map that looks like it could actually exist).

Forests from map 1, mountains from map 2.

I like them both, though they both look only partially finished. Try mixing the "best" parts of each and see how that comes out for you.

Map one.

I personally like Map 1 best, but the lakes/seas have some funky effect that makes them look above the rest of the landscape.  Not sure what kind of filter (if any) you used for those, but that should probably be fixed. ;)  Other than that, I think it's a very nice looking map.

I personally like Map 1 best, but the lakes/seas have some funky effect that makes them look above the rest of the landscape.  Not sure what kind of filter (if any) you used for those, but that should probably be fixed. ;)  Other than that, I think it's a very nice looking map.

Edit: Oh, I see, you put some sort of drop shadow beneath the lakes.  Remove that, and maybe put some sort of inner bevel on the negative z plane, and it should do nicely.

Edit 2: Apparently I don't know how to use my own forums...

Quote from: Ninja D!They both have a very "work in progress" feel, I think.  Maybe it is because nothing is labeled, maybe you just shouldn't be done tinkering yet.  Whatever the case, the water near the land looks far to light by my eyes.

Yes they are both a work in progress. I have some cities, and trade routes on layers that are turned off. I like how those are turning out, but I started to think about the cities I was adding and what they would be like. With Map2 there is no visual indication of what the terrain surrounding a city is, so I had a hard time with describing cities. I put it on the back burner for a long time and haven't touched Adveria since.

While flying across the US I saw some interesting patterns and textures, and thought about mapping once again and how I could get a better looking terrain on my maps. So nearly a month ago I started playing with other maps and trying to recreate what is in my mind.

Problem is that I can see things I want to do clearly in my mind, I've just never been able to get my hands to translate it well.

I'm not done tinkering by a long shot, but I am getting to a point where I want to put it on the back burner once again and I know if I do that I won't pick it back up for a long time (if ever). I'm just wondering if I should continue trying to get the terrain effects just right, or go back to the "stamp" look and try to make it better.

Quote from: khyron1144Map 2 is very pretty, but for me to be complete it needs labels and to appear on a hex grid with a clearly marked scale of X number of miles to the hex.

This is only one of the land masses, the map's scale is under one of the other landmasses. Labels right now are turned off (though those are no where near done, but I like the way they are coming along).

Quote from: NomadicI like map 2 better as it is much cleaner than map 1. Might I suggest you turn the faded gradient in the water into an actual height map of sorts showing stepped depths farther down into the ocean instead of one smooth gradient.

After I get the land the way I want it I will be working on the water. The current white blurred ring was something Raelifin showed me and on the original map it looked fine. The more I work on the map the more it looks out of place.

Quote from: NomadicQuestion for you though. How much are you worried about making your maps realistic (note that some realism is important in order to get a map that looks like it could actually exist).

I know I could never make it look completely real, but I do want a good representation of the terrain. The areas that are flat, the areas that are hilly, mountains, forests, etc...

I've been looking at various topographic maps of the different continents, I know I couldn't get that level of detail, but I think I want to emulate some of the things I see.

Quote from: AcrimoneForests from map 1, mountains from map 2.

Funny, I like the forest of either map and was happy with those, the mountains are what really get me. I don't care for the stamp look of map 2, however I can't seem to get the terrain look for map 1.

Quote from: IshmaylI personally like Map 1 best, but the lakes/seas have some funky effect that makes them look above the rest of the landscape.  Not sure what kind of filter (if any) you used for those, but that should probably be fixed. ;)  Other than that, I think it's a very nice looking map.

Edit: Oh, I see, you put some sort of drop shadow beneath the lakes.  Remove that, and maybe put some sort of inner bevel on the negative z plane, and it should do nicely.

The water right now is a flat, blue layer. There are no effects on it, the lakes and oceans are transparent areas in and around the land. What you are seeing is a bevel on the land. I tried to use a bevel on the rivers, but it made it look really bad, so those got a slightly offset drop shadow (I was trying to make it look the opposite of what you are describing. Sunk in instead of hovering above.). Now I can't remember if I used an inner or outer bevel for the land...

Ah... yeah, that makes sense then.  

I like map 1 much better. I despise stamps.

[spoiler But I have a few suggestions]
Click for full size:
(//../../e107_files/public/1218725877_9_FT53696_editmap_.png) (//../../e107_files/public/1218725877_9_FT53696_editmap.png)

The map is too bright and saturated, even for "high fantasy." In the top-left I've just applied a simple de-saturate and down-tone, and I think it makes it (the land) look much better.

* Having solid-blue lakes and seas really hurts the eyes compared with your oceans. I've circled an area where I've done a quick fix in this department. I think my fix helps the eye understand the north-eastern coast on the western continent.

* You've made a comment about the water looking out of place. This is because there is too much contrast (the light-blue is too glowy), the drop-off is unusually swift (my maps use a stair-step of color before blurring), and you need a texture for your ocean.

* The drop-shadow or emboss or whatever on the southern coastline makes the land look like it's hanging down at you. I redid a section to compare with the emboss, and I think it's better with a uniform-sized coastline.

* There are a few tree stamps on the far-right.

* The biggest problem is your use of textures. When all of the land has a pattern (repeating texture), the eye cannot understand any real topography, which makes everything look flat. The solution is to use a combination of noise, hand brushwork and

multiple overlayed images/textures to create a chaotic, but attractive surface. Mountains will come out of this if you pull some tricks (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php/Image:Melseh_Ubau_Map.png) with the shadows/color.[/list]
[/spoiler]
[spoiler Also]I have some issues with your geography. Namely, the placement of "forests" and apparent distinction between seas and lakes. I understand that this might not be the place to bring such things up, so let me know if you want to get into it.[/spoiler]
[spoiler Also-also]Part of what we do here is refine our craft, and I think that practice makes perfect, but if you think that the digital art aspect of cartography is not something you'd like to work on in particular I would be happy to do a map of Adveria in the style of my newest maps. I'd even make it a tutorial if you wanted.

Just offering. :)[/spoiler]

If I haven't said it in a while, I hate you Raelifin... but in a good way. :D


Your area of noise, and blending is something I tried to do early on, but I could never get anything to work. I really have a problem with blending as you can see in the deserty region as it doesn't blend well into the surrounding area. (I miss diffusion clouds :( )

The water I'm not too worried about right now. That was going to be phase two. I was already planning on making the ocean slightly textured as well as getting rid of the white and making it a closer match to the darker blue.

I thought I turned off the old stamped forest layer... guess I didn't.


I know you had a problem with the rivers when I first posted them, what is wrong with the forests? (Besides the fact I placed them randomly when I was using the stamp)


I've never been the artistic one, that was my sister. I can design and see things in my mind, but they never come out like what I see when I try to do it. Any tips and tricks would be welcomed. (I did many google searches for terrain tutorials and not finding much that would help)

Quote from: PoseidonI've never been the artistic one, that was my sister. I can design and see things in my mind, but they never come out like what I see when I try to do it. Any tips and tricks would be welcomed. (I did many google searches for terrain tutorials and not finding much that would help)

I know how you feel, man.  Keep at it and eventually things will work.

I can see map 1 now.  I think overall map 1 looks better.  Somehow the mounmtains look more mountainous.

I like 1 better.

Forests

Forests are one of the most vital aspects of a con-region's geography. Forests provide fertile land, wood for building and a lush habitat for all kind of wildlife.

When placing forests, it's important to consider that anywhere a tree can grow easily you'll find a forest (with a few exceptions). Trees are tenacious buggers, too; from the slopes of the Rocky Mountains to the Australian savanna you'll find trees -- and forests.

Because of how prolific trees are, it's typically helpful to think about where trees aren't rather than where they are.

Trees are killed by glaciers, permafrost and tundra. Heavy snows, however, are typically survivable.

* Trees are killed by rain-shadow and very arid climates. See also: Deserts

* Bad soil can prevent heavy forestation, though usually not enough to stamp out all tree growth. Acidic or salty
soil will prevent growth, as will volcanic activity.

* Trees only grow below a

certain altitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treeline#Alpine_tree_lines), due to the above factors and difficulty with air pressure.

* Lastly, tree growth is sometimes inhibited by fauna, even where it might be possible otherwise. Humans and large grazers tend to create their own plains.[/list]

If you determine elevations, wind and sea currents and average temperatures, the forests will fall into place. Alternatively, you can place the forests and then alter the surrounding geography appropriately.

With regard to Adveria, I see no reason why the entire Mediterranean region, particularly near the big lake, would not be entirely forest. If anything, the region most likely not to be forested (IMO) would be the far north-west, where the mountains block coastal rains and produce a colder environment.

As a quick last-note, bodies of water act as heat-sinks, which means that arctic coasts are typically warmer than inland, while tropical coasts are cooler. If nothing else, most large bodies of water (that aren't salt-lakes) should be surrounded by forest.

I'll post a mini-tutorial later on producing a forest-effect on maps.

That was a very good presentation on forests when pertaining to maps.  I'll be completely honest, I never gave that much consideration when I was making my maps either, and now I'm giving a bit of thought to redrawing them...

Ah but there is one thing you haven't taken into consideration. Deforestation! One of my nations is a ship building nation and they use a lot of wood... yeah that's it.

I guess it makes sense (I have another continent that is almost completely forested because of the lack of "civilized" inhabitants). I want the southern area to be similar to the Midwest US, little forests, mostly farmlands. The northeast however could probably use more trees. I'll have to play with it some more.

Just a nitpick, if I may...  there are several downstream-direction branches to your rivers.  Most rivers branch upstream, and while downstream branches do occur, you've got an awful lot of them.

Good point, Acrimone.  Speaking of rivers, I didn't notice this before, but there are two rivers that almost seem to be crossing each other in the NW quadrant of the map.  Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but they look to be one going from NE - SW, and one going N-S, and crossing.  This brings to my attention an old bit of wisdom that you may have heard before, now brought into the realm of cartography:




.....






.....



Ready for it?



....


Don't Cross the Streams!  !turtle




....



Yeah, I went there

Do you have either Photoshop or GIMP? If so, put these in files with a million and ten layers. Make each layer, except for the basic "map" layer (what you have so far) at 25-50% opacity, and run a filter through each of those layers. If you want to see how a filter works for a texture, just make it's layer visible, and the rest invisible. You can even have layers for combining filters and effects, if you want. The biggest problem, I think, would only be keeping track of what combination of filters had which effect.

Raelifin, if you made that up please post more.  If you got that from a tutorial elsewhere, please post a link.  I have yet to do a serious map for my setting and would love to have such information going into the process.

I come here looking for advice and I get attacked and put down. FINE I've erased my rivers. I'll just start over because I suck so much...

Quote from: Ninja D!Raelifin, if you made that up please post more.  If you got that from a tutorial elsewhere, please post a link.  I have yet to do a serious map for my setting and would love to have such information going into the process.

Aw hell, thanks.

If I have time, I'll throw up a whole mapping/geography tutorial. Step-by-step.

Quote from: PoseidonI come here looking for advice and I get attacked and put down. FINE I've erased my rivers. I'll just start over because I suck so much...

On the off chance you're serious... I should point out that it's called a "nitpick" because it's not that big of a deal.

But I suspect you're being tongue in cheek.  SO hard to tell in a textual medium, especially when I don't know all the players as well as I might.

Quote from: PoseidonI come here looking for advice and I get attacked and put down. FINE I've erased my rivers. I'll just start over because I suck so much...

You're kidding, right? :(

When have I ever been serious? :D


Acrimone, I'm almost always kidding. I heard if I was ever too serious I might explode.

I did erase my rivers so that I could redo them.

It would be great if I could claim the knowledge as my own but alas I cannot. For it was Snargash who showed me some wonderful tricks in map making which led to my map of Karros as it is now.

Landmass is an important one so we would start there however your looks realistic enough so we can skip that over. Next up and one I do think we can work on is rivers.

First off the previous comments should be listened to. Don't cross streams and always have rivers coming together more often than splitting apart. Next off you will rarely find rivers following an isthmus. This is even more true in the case you have there (the lack of mountains means it is probably a land bridge and thus sloping down below the surrounding terrain). So your river on the eastern isthmus needs something surrounding it to keep it from sloping down into the sea. Another thing to keep in mind is that water very often comes from the mountains. It flows down in streams where the water connects up with lakes and larger rivers and continues its course towards the sea as best as it can.

Quote from: PoseidonWhen have I ever been serious? :D


Acrimone, I'm almost always kidding. I heard if I was ever too serious I might explode.

I did erase my rivers so that I could redo them.

Touché... so when will we see the new maps?

Well I was playing with some noise and textures last night but didn't quite like the way it came out. I might try again tonight. Hopefully soon.

On the subject of maps, does anyone have a decent terrain map of Earth--one that doesn't have labels or cities, so that I could apply these things freshly for Kishar?

If you search Google maps with an empty string there is a decent one. You can zoom in and out and you can get a satellite look as well

[spoiler= Here's one] (http://www.map-of-united-states.com/map-of-united-states-topographic.jpg) [/spoiler]

[spoiler= Here's another one] (http://www.map-of-north-america.us/north-america-topo-map.gif) [/spoiler]

[spoiler= Yet another one] (http://www.1-costaricalink.com/maps_of_the_world/usa_maps/united_states_topographic.jpg) [/spoiler]

Those are just of the US, but I'm sure I can find more. Do an Google image search for "topographic map world" (world is optional). You should find something you can use.

You might also be able to find something on the NASA site.

Quote from: PhoenixOn the subject of maps, does anyone have a decent terrain map of Earth--one that doesn't have labels or cities, so that I could apply these things freshly for Kishar?

you mean something like this: Warning: Huge Image (http://www.oera.net/How2/PlanetTexs/EarthMap_2500x1250.jpg)
or this: Warning: Also Huge Image (http://chuma.cas.usf.edu/~juster/volc1/world%20map.gif)

Note the first map is known as a texture map (3d graphic artists use them to 'skin' their creations). The second one is just a blank map found by searching "white world map" on Google (which will also get you some blank continental outline maps if you want to create your own national boundaries).

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: PhoenixOn the subject of maps, does anyone have a decent terrain map of Earth--one that doesn't have labels or cities, so that I could apply these things freshly for Kishar?

you mean something like this: Warning: Huge Image (http://www.oera.net/How2/PlanetTexs/EarthMap_2500x1250.jpg)

Note the above map is known as a texture map (3d graphic artists use them to 'skin' their creations).

That is awesome Nomadic. It's exactly the kind I wanted. Do you have anything even bigger, but focused on the eastern hemisphere (since I need to apply fresh labels to all the countries and major landforms)?

Thanks a bunch to all three of you guys for the great suggestions!  :D

This is the largest I have found so far. It is a full world map and the antarctic color is a bit odd. However you can easily crop it down to just Africa, Australia, and Eurasia with paint or photoshop or any other image program.

Warning: Gigantic image, dial-up users beware. (http://www.noirextreme.com/digital/Earth-Color4096.jpg)

I am still looking but if my current search doesn't yield anything I doubt you will find anything larger (other than the Google maps stuff but thats a mesh of different maps and thus looks ugly except really close up or really far away). The only exception to that rule might be hi-res images of individual countries and regions if you only want like say an image of japan or something like that.

Ok here is the largest you are going to get without a bit torrent file. Note that this image is absolutely gigantic (1 px = 2km). So it is going to take you awhile to load it up even on fast cable. Alternately there is one which is 8km per pixel (which I will post also) which should be fine for labeling cities. You can scale them down just fine if you need and a slight bit of scaling up shouldn't hurt quality too much.

1px = 2km (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/BlueMarble/images_bmng/2km/world.200407.3x21600x10800.jpg)
1 px = 8km (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/BlueMarble/images_bmng/8km/world.200407.3x5400x2700.jpg)

torrent file for 1px = 500m (http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/7118/world.200407.3x21600x21600.panels.png.tar.torrent)

I get a message saying that the 1px = 2km file has errors.

Quote from: Ninja D!I get a message saying that the 1px = 2km file has errors.

Ditto.

But you're still a hero, Nomadic! A hero!

Also not sure about the file type on the last one. I'm downloading it, but I don't know what I need to open it.

You need bittorrent

bittorrent (http://www.bittorrent.com/)

I've used bittorent to download the file, but I'm not sure how to open a file of that filetype (.panel.png).

I'm no cartographer, but it seems like your desert to the southeast is oddly placed - usually deserts are blocked off from the oceans by mountains, which block moist waters coming in off the oceans.  You also have a funny little place on the NE section of desert that goes up between a couple forests.  Seems to be saying that on that tiny strip of land, no flora will grow, but all around it, rich forests dwell.

How did you do the mountain textures, I would like to use something like that.

Quote from: PhoenixI've used bittorent to download the file, but I'm not sure how to open a file of that filetype (.panel.png).

Try opening it in paint (or photoshop) and see what happens.

Yeah, I tried Photoshop 6 and it said it wasn't a valid file type. Don't seem to have Paint on this computer (at least it's not listed under accessories where I thought Paint was located--not that it's something I use).

You don't have paint?  Seriously?  Are you running windows?

Poseidon, have you been working on your map any more?

Quote from: PhoenixYeah, I tried Photoshop 6 and it said it wasn't a valid file type. Don't seem to have Paint on this computer (at least it's not listed under accessories where I thought Paint was located--not that it's something I use).

I am not sure what to say except that they screwed up the file name change .panel.png to panel.png and accept the changes then try to open it up with photoshop.

Quote from: Ninja D!Poseidon, have you been working on your map any more?

A little, I've had a few more ideas on how to do some things and have been twiddling, unfortunately I can't share because people like to touch stuff (even though I say don't I'll fix it when I get home) and now the internet at home is out.