The Campaign Builder's Guild

Hello!

I am using this thread to cruelly subject you to my terrible artwork! I've been making a few quick sketches to try to better define the visuals of the Jade Stage, so I decided I might as well upload them to give you all a good laugh.

Round 1 is pictures of goblins, because I figured out that the reason I was having trouble describing them was because I had no idea what they look like.

For reference, here's one of my old goblin drawings from several years ago.
[spoiler=old drawing of a young goblin male]His hair is stupid, as are his ears and nose. Note how he looks to be half asleep, too. What the hell is this lame, dumb breed of goblin.[/spoiler]

Note also that the above-linked picture took about three days to draw. Today's sketches are much quicker, designed just to get the basic lines and shapes in place.

[spoiler=a goblin in profile]The first sketch of the evening, mainly just trying to get the nose and the ears right. I think I got the smirk right, too, which is probably the best part.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=look at this guy]No, really. This is like the goblin Fonzie or something. EEEH.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=doing goblin magic]Here's a young water-priest concentrating really hard on conjuring a vapor spirit. My favorite sketch of the night.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=a very ladylike goblin]It's all relative. I messed up the proportions here a bit; I was going for the look of an adult goblin woman, but she looks a little bit more like a little kid. Don't know whether this is because of her head/shoulders ratio, the gleeful look on her face, or the fact that she can't dress herself (those boots do not go with that dress.)[/spoiler]

Tomato-throwing commences... NOW

I think part of what makes the lady goblin look younger is her ears.  You did more pointed ears on all three of the males, plus the top one has a bit of the whole "cut-out" ear thing going on (which I like).

Very cool though, much more goblin-y than the original picture.  I see you're still doing the handguns, too!

Pretty good stuff. There's not a lot to critique considering they're sketches, but it looks like they could be turned into some pretty sweet material.

Quote from: IshmaylI think part of what makes the lady goblin look younger is her ears.  You did more pointed ears on all three of the males, plus the top one has a bit of the whole "cut-out" ear thing going on (which I like).

Yeah-- two things I'm terrible at drawing: girls and age variation. I'm not imagining goblins as particularly curvy, so I'm stuck trying to find other ways to illustrate femininity. Women tend to have softer facial features than men, so I thought: why not the ears?

Then again, kids have softer and oddly-proportioned facial features, too. Curse ambiguity!

I guess I will have to figure out something!

Quote from: IshyVery cool though, much more goblin-y than the original picture.  I see you're still doing the handguns, too!

Yeah, the guns aren't going away, they're just going to look less modern than in some of my other sketches.

Well, maybe goblin women just look like that, to human eyes you know. Humans just think they all look like little kids, right up until they get all the wrinkles and ravages of old age. Goblins can tell, because they have reason to.

Quote from: snakefingWell, maybe goblin women just look like that, to human eyes you know. Humans just think they all look like little kids, right up until they get all the wrinkles and ravages of old age. Goblins can tell, because they have reason to.

A worthy explanation. I don't want to rely on it if I can avoid it, but it's a useful thing to fall back on if I can't magic up another solution with my meager art skills. (I'm already doing a similar "they all look alike to everybody else" thing with liriss, and I don't want to get repetitive.)

And now, for some (probably boring) notes on goblin visual design?
[spoiler=LC talks and talks]So, where to start?

The preferred racial slurs, if you want to insult a goblin, always have to do with rats. Rat-folk or ratlings... with goblins' renowned propensity for sailing, even the old "like rats from a sinking ship" line can get worked into conversation from time to time. Visually, I'm trying to strike a tough balance between a few "rat-like" features and more human-like ones. (After all, they're not actually supposed to be part rodent.)

So they get the ratty ears*. They get a large, prominent nose, but it's a human-like nose, not a rodent nose and muzzle. They all have really weak chins (even the years-old sketch, I was pleased to discover!), which helps emphasize the nose even more, because the nose is the only thing really pointing out in the front of the face.

Rats and other rodents have a sort of triangular, wedge-shaped head. I tried to get a similar look for goblins, making the ears and nose the points of the "triangle." That's also the reason for the shape of their skulls: they've got skulls that are less "vertical" than yours or mine, but instead sweep back towards a mound on the back of the head. (This is a terrible description; look at the two sketches in profile to see what I mean.) The longest dimension of goblins' heads is more or less along the line you could draw from nose to ears.

There are a million artists' depictions of goblins, and in most of those imaginings, goblins are scaly, scabrous, warty, or otherwise made hideous and monstrous. I'm trying to give them more of a fair shake than that, give them a more familiar and relate-able look, as a whole. It's a tough line to walk, 'cause I want them to be a little bit gnarled and physically creepy, but not too much. Just a li'l.

(*Yeah, I'm aware that actual rats have rounded, floppy ears that sort of fold over a bit, and these goblins have pointy ears with an apparently rigid top edge at least, making them appear more like bat ears. I'm doing my best!

As for the "cut-out" ear shape that Ishy commented on, do you suppose that's his natural ear shape or the result of an injury? I don't even know! Maybe he got it shot off in a gunfight, had an infected ear piercing, or used to date a girl who didn't understand safe words!)[/spoiler]

Having the "cut-out" ears be a natural feature for all goblins would be a nice way to give them that 'gnarly' look. Even if the other sketches are lacking them.

As for your drawing skills, they're better than mine. (Which is not really a compliment...)

I'm going to have to argue against moving away from the style you've got going now with the simple shaded artwork. We'll have to see your inkwork to be sure (hey, it might be better) but as far as I'm concerned the extensive shading is something that defines the setting and I've come to associate with the Jade Stage.

I like the fonz and crazy gun lady. I think maybe she looks young because her face isn't that long? Not real sure though.

I think you also did a good job of "humanizing" these guys, while they still obviously look pretty goblinish.

One question--are the slit (||) nostrils a goblin feature, or just drawing style?

I dunno if it's just me, but the figures look to me like they were carved out of wax...

In the first one, you could get the smirk a bit better if you raised the right (our left) corner a bit, possibly even pulling it in toward the nose just a touch. His hair is only bad because it doesn't have anything resembling a part in it. Well, that and it's kinda too thick, too. Remember, hair =! helmet. With these, all you'd need to do is tweak what you already have, which is a very useful practice. The only thing I would redo from start is the ears, and only because they're inconsistent with ears in the other sketches. The "problem" is that here, they stick straight out from the goblin's head, instead of blending in at a smoother angle, like Fonz, there. Either way is fine, so long as you stick to that style, at very least amongst the same race.

Skipping around a little bit, the profile and mage I don't really have much to say about. They seem pretty good.

The Fonz I like on a technical level, but that eyebrow-waggle-and-fu-manchu combo just isn't my thing. I just chalk it up to a cultural difference, though.

I think you're close when you say it's a ratio thing that makes the goblin woman look so young, but I don't think it's the head:shoulders ratio; I think it's the shoulders:hips ratio. With adult women, their hips are very close to the same width as their shoulders, usually with a narrower waist. Also, as has been mentioned, the face seems too round. My guess is you're either equating curve with roundness (they aren't always the same thing), or trying to add both curves and softness (don't; try instead to use the curves as the medium for the softness). I imagine the sun dress might add a bit of childishness, but that could just be me.

I hope this helps. I'd love to see revisions of these!

Heya, folks. Lots of replies, so I'm going to hit the general praise with a general "Thanks!" right now, and address only the more specific comments.

Quote from: BioHazardI'm going to have to argue against moving away from the style you've got going now with the simple shaded artwork. We'll have to see your inkwork to be sure (hey, it might be better) but as far as I'm concerned the extensive shading is something that defines the setting and I've come to associate with the Jade Stage.

One question--are the slit (||) nostrils a goblin feature, or just drawing style? [/quote]In the first one,[/quote]years.[/i]

Quote from: Ibid.I think you're close when you say it's a ratio thing that makes the goblin woman look so young, but I don't think it's the head:shoulders ratio; I think it's the shoulders:hips ratio.

I hope this helps. I'd love to see revisions of these! [/quote]It does help, very much. The original plan was to get out a bunch of sketches very quickly (I have others I haven't even posted!), just to solidify my ideas of how goblins work. I may take one or two and polish them up because I like them so much, even though that wasn't my original plan.

Quote from: Luminous CrayonThanks, I think? I really have no idea what this means.

I could have been clearer. What I mean is that, for some reason, the figures aren't striking me as covered in skin. It looks off.

Going back, it's not as big as I remembered. Maybe I was just tired, although I agree that the sundress is a bit scary-looking.

It's intended to be scary-looking.

In general, I find it difficult to imagine a more fearsome garment.

Quote from: Luminous Crayon

Quote from: Ibid.The Fonz I like on a technical level, but that eyebrow-waggle-and-fu-manchu combo just isn't my thing.

Heh, most likely. There's just something about being hit on by a guy with a Fu Manchu-- regardless of race-- that somehow seems a tad... odd, let's say.

On a side note, apparently Firefox's spellcheck recognizes the word "Fonz". How cool is that?

Quote from: Ibid.I think you're close when you say it's a ratio thing that makes the goblin woman look so young, but I don't think it's the head:shoulders ratio; I think it's the shoulders:hips ratio.

Don't feel bad, you're certainly not the first person to miss something that would seem so obvious (once you know it, anyway), and I honestly doubt you're the last. Actually, that's pretty good news for you, given your (edit: former; that makes this statement a little pointless) line of work!

Quote from: Ibid.My guess is you're either equating curve with roundness (they aren't always the same thing), or trying to add both curves and softness (don't; try instead to use the curves as the medium for the softness).

The first issue is the visual difference between a new Volkswagon Beetle, and an old Corvette. While both are, technically, "curvy", the former gets it's curves from it's roundness. The lack of roundness in the latter is what allows it to be more "sleek".

The second issue is much more... abstract. The best way I can think of to explain it is in conveying tactile sensations visually. Feminine softness is, for the most part, a tactile feature. However, like most tactile features, it can be portrayed visually, in this case, usually with smooth, flowing curves (there are other bits that help portray the softness, but this is the most obvious). It's possible the softness of the face was overdone, by trying to make it soft and curvy, instead of simply letting the latter imply the former.

I guess i probably could just say something like "the facial outline has too much arch to it", but that just seems too much like a cold, scientific examination. I think those sort of comments ultimately provide no help with the artistic intent.

Quote from: Ibid.I hope this helps. I'd love to see revisions of these!

I'm glad I was able to help. Like I said, I probably could just make comments like "move this line that way, add contrast here", but I don't find those kinds of comments helpful at all when it comes to art. Even works that aren't as grandiose as, say, the Mona Lisa or the Sistine Chapel portray some level of abstract elements, so more abstract terms seem to be more fitting.

Quote from: Halfling FritosShame, really. That was my favorite. I always appreciate when an artist goes that extra distance with shading.

Well, it's a finished image for something out-of-date. All the others in the thread are roughs of a newer version. But sooner or later, I'm going to have more to show than roughs.

Thanks for clarifying the bit about the curves. You've got quite a knack for explaining visual arts, clearly. Is this your line of work, or your area of study?