The Campaign Builder's Guild

Normally when I come up with a setting I write a bunch of stuff up on a thread in the Homebrew and then wait for a response.  And don't get one or much of one.  And I think I understand why: I'm not posting anything people find original and/or creative enough that it's worth peoples' precious time to read.

So rather than do that process all over again this time I want to present the main ideas and see if they intrigue people, and if not find out what I might do to change them to make them more interesting.  I really would like questions and critiques of these ideas.

Multiple worlds linked by a ground-level method: One world feels claustrophobic, and just doesn't have enough different places to draw adventures in/from.  Can't do space-travel because space feels too open and empty.  That leaves travel by portal.  I kinda like it because it eliminates the need for the whole spaceship industry and it suggests that people (and characters) might not be able to just hop to whatever point on another planet they like, as with spaceship travel, or hide out in the vastness of space.
The portals would be naturally occurring because I like the idea that people aren't the ones responsible for creating the most important element of their universe.  However there's something to be said for people having some control somewhere in this travel method, so I'm thinking that while the portals occur naturally they have to be "activated" somehow, so they generally wouldn't open on their own.  To keep having a portal from giving you access to everywhere I'll say that most only connect to one other point.
The impact on society and economics is not something I can figure out: would it really be that different from having one world, just a huge lot more places in it?

Impersonal, unintelligent magic: I like magic.  But there's something I hate about it when it operates according to the worldview of people.  I'd rather have it work its own way and people have to figure out it, they way they have to approach science.
Also I don't like there being an intelligent force behind or controlling magic.  This applies both to gods and the "minds/souls" of people, and even to the idea that magic understands "words".  Magic should be a natural force, and like all natural forces it doesn't have an intelligence.
I like magic, and I like it this way, but I wonder if I've taken all the bits out of it that really interest other people.

High-tech and magic coexist and complement one another: This setting still advances science even with magic around.  In fact they can use magic to help science, to help technology do more incredible things and to study something with precision science alone can't match.

Magic is a part of the natural world: None of this "magic is separate/comes from another dimension" stuff.  Or the "magic is unnatural" stuff.  Magic is an integral force to this universe and allows for quite fantastic things to be part of the natural order.

Practitioners of magic fight about it's proper use: Flashy Summon vs. subtle Alter; emotional Primal vs. disciplined Soul; cyclic Green vs. draining Black.  These are a few of rivalries and conflicts that have sprung up in those attempting to understand the ways of magic.

Sentient species who look kinda weird but aren't incomprehensible: Aliens with incomprehensible minds and that look really weird are okay for authors that want to show that kind of stuff, but I need the species of this universe to be able to come to understand one another (and for the players to be able to play them) and to generally have forms that people dealing with the setting will understand and will invoke associations with similar looking things on Earth.  This doesn't mean that all sentients would be humans with funny foreheads or even obviously something ripped from Earth, but could be described by referring to Earth things.

Conflict happens, but mostly locally: If something like a war starts somewhere the bottlenecking nature of the portals usually means the war itself doesn't go farther than its own planet.  Other aspects, such as spies and terrorism, might, but it's really difficult to control that anyway.  And reprocussions of the war, such as disrupted trade and refugees, might go very far.

There isn't anything that can threaten the multiverse as a whole or even large areas: No apocalyptic evils or wars that span a large number of planets.  I think this sort of stuff should exist on a bit more personal level.  And it keeps the setting intact.

Old but not stagnant: The civilizations of the multiverse often have roots that trace back ages, but that doesn't mean they've been the same all that time: technology, science, magic, and society have progressed from the ancient days.

Full of secrets and people who know them: There are secrets everywhere from the olden times.  But the multiverse is so vast that you'd lose the pieces if you searched yourself.  Fortunately there are groups that have sprung up, from societies of conquest or hording lore to one of travelers and their waystations.

Here are some responses I got when I put this on my note thread, as well as my responses:

Quote from: SteerpikeFor the multiple worlds thing I suppose portals could work but they're going to be pretty darn crowded, and will totally revolutionize the way commerce works (imagine London, New York, and Tokyo being instantaneously connected).  The portals would have to be housed in massive buildings (like airports) and would be dominated by vast amounts of cargo being shipped constantly in and out.  The instantaneous travel-method would lead to the formation of inter-connected super-cities which, while technically not existing on the same planets, would overlap and become essentially continuous.  Cities would of course be built around the portals: they're the most sensible places to start building.  The military implications also boggle the mind, as does the potential for terrorism.  The whole overlapping cities thing is a cool idea in and of itself, but perhaps not what you're going for??

Actually that all sounds perfectly fine to me, even the military and terrorist implications.  For those last two I should remind you that you can't just create portals anywhere, so unless there's one you haven't found you can pretty much control what gets onto your planet.  And the idea that the bad guys could find one you don't know about and start covertly moving in has good adventure potential.
Also in a version that actually appears in the first post of this thread the portals come in pairs that only connect to each other.  So you can't find one portal and then have access to the entire rest of the multiverse.

Quote from: SteerpikeI have three suggestions that you might want to ponder about this one:

1) Have space-ships but emphasize the ships, not the space.  Travel could be accomplished on huge spaceships that resemble cities/luxury ocean liners.  All of that darkness/emptiness/void stuff could be played down, and travel could even potentially be glossed over almost completely.  Think Indiana Jones but with the red line on a star-chart instead of a planetary map.

2) Have a big planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Planet) with lots and lots of moons, a planet absolutely enormous but low-density and thus earth-like in its gravity.  Travel between the moons could be very quick, and would be much more visually appealing than the blackness of space since the view would constantly be dominated by the surface of the planet or the moons themselves, as opposed to the abyssal void.

3) Go the Dune route and have traveling-without-moving or foldspace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holtzman_effect) technique, tesseracting basically, which has to be accomplished by a trained navigator-psychic or powerful computer or something.  In Dune of course the Spice gets involved, but I get the feeling the implications of something like that wouldn't be up your street.  Foldspace technology would work similarly to portals but still requires a ship in orbit and makes travel somewhat more difficult, evading the potential problems of the overlapping-cities inevitability if you have land portals.  You could I suppose work this in with wormholes ("rifts") although the idea that all of the rifts are close to planets seems a little too convenient to me.

For your three space suggestions they're each good ideas but I don't think I'm going to use any of them.  Each has aspects that don't quite work for me
Suggestions 1: I tried this in the earlier version of Pulp-Dream, but it's just not enough of an elimination for me to feel comfortable.  Plus I do like how the portals eliminate the need for people to have their own ships in order to travel how they want.
Suggestions 2: This one is actually really, really intriguing, and I'd use it, but I feel like it eliminates the adventure possibility of finding totally new or forgotten places that you have to have multiple unconnected points for.  It seems to me that a civilization with space-faring technology would have been able to explore the surface of an entire planet, even a giant one.
Suggestions 3: I actually had a version like this at one point, where you had to get on a ship, go far enough from the planet, then "jump" or whatever.  It just seems silly when I don't care about the intervening distance.

Quote from: SteerpikeFor the magic thing, this sounds totally cool to me, and frankly not all that uncommon an approach.  I've personally encountered lots of settings where magic isn't a sentient force and isn't particularly human-centric, but is treated like a form of energy, magical study becoming a science.

Good.  The whole point is that magic doesn't need to be this restrictive thing like the laws of physics, but that like all natural things people can only manipulate it, not control it.

Quote from: SteerpikeCould magic actually form part of the standard interplanetary travel-method?

In fact in the very first version of all this, way back when, the multiverse's earliest method involved special mages who could open the portals, and this was the only way until someone found space-warping ore that could create portals.  At that point in my process there wasn't the "you can only open these in certain places", but that was back when being able to travel was more important than the implications of that travel.

Quote from: NomadicTotally off topic but I just had an awesome thought pop into my head. Something bad is about to happen, perhaps someone is about to set off a "nuke" in the city or something similar. The players hijack a small air speeder and barrel it through the portal buildings big front window and fly it through the portal right before the bomb goes off.

And this has been another edition of 'crazy things PCs would totally do'.

Yes, they could do that, so long as they don't mind blowing up whatever's on the other side. :P

But I can see that if I'm sparking those sorts of ideas I do have at least a grain of something good on my hands.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawImpersonal, unintelligent magic: I like magic.  But there's something I hate about it when it operates according to the worldview of people.  I'd rather have it work its own way and people have to figure out it, they way they have to approach science.
Also I don't like there being an intelligent force behind or controlling magic.  This applies both to gods and the "minds/souls" of people, and even to the idea that magic understands "words".  Magic should be a natural force, and like all natural forces it doesn't have an intelligence.
I like magic, and I like it this way, but I wonder if I've taken all the bits out of it that really interest other people.

Magic is a part of the natural world: None of this "magic is separate/comes from another dimension" stuff.  Or the "magic is unnatural" stuff.  Magic is an integral force to this universe and allows for quite fantastic things to be part of the natural order.
[/quote]
Sentient species who look kinda weird but aren't incomprehensible: Aliens with incomprehensible minds and that look really weird are okay for authors that want to show that kind of stuff, but I need the species of this universe to be able to come to understand one another (and for the players to be able to play them) and to generally have forms that people dealing with the setting will understand and will invoke associations with similar looking things on Earth.  This doesn't mean that all sentients would be humans with funny foreheads or even obviously something ripped from Earth, but could be described by referring to Earth things.
[/quote]
There isn't anything that can threaten the multiverse as a whole or even large areas: No apocalyptic evils or wars that span a large number of planets.  I think this sort of stuff should exist on a bit more personal level.  And it keeps the setting intact.
[/quote]
Full of secrets and people who know them: There are secrets everywhere from the olden times.  But the multiverse is so vast that you'd lose the pieces if you searched yourself.  Fortunately there are groups that have sprung up, from societies of conquest or hording lore to one of travelers and their waystations.
[/quote]
I don't quite understand this part, could you explain it a bit clearer for me?

Dude, I had such a very similar idea not to long ago. You should email me and we can work on it.

Not to get all "stargatey" on you. When asking about the implications of using a portal system. I think of the episodes with the "Ashin" who offered high technology, extended lifes, free from disease or illness, but insidiously causing sterility. After a single generation as a close portal partner, the Ashin take over and make the world into another farm or resource to exploit.

Huge vehicles with tons of grain was poured into horizontally placed portals to some bin receptacle to catch it on the otherside. They used the stargate portals to the most efficient and xenophobic process.

That doesn't mean a more conventional war could not occur, but I agree with Nomadic that since portals are choke points, thus would be a single incident then a cold war by not using that Portal between places, each heavily guarded awaiting the next incident. However, terrorists and inter-portal espionage provacateurs using the portal system would be more likely, offering limitless game scenarios because of it.

I could see a Church considering it divine magical portals and becoming those airports, and toll collectors for all transport between planets. Becoming fat, wealthy and exploitive with too much power, causing political strife so the war is not between planets, but with those trying to control the portals between them.

Thoughts?

GP

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawNormally when I come up with a setting I write a bunch of stuff up on a thread in the Homebrew and then wait for a response.  And don't get one or much of one.  And I think I understand why: I'm not posting anything people find original and/or creative enough that it's worth peoples' precious time to read.

Impersonal, unintelligent magic: I like magic.  But there's something I hate about it when it operates according to the worldview of people.  I'd rather have it work its own way and people have to figure out it, they way they have to approach science.
Also I don't like there being an intelligent force behind or controlling magic.  This applies both to gods and the "minds/souls" of people, and even to the idea that magic understands "words".  Magic should be a natural force, and like all natural forces it doesn't have an intelligence.
I like magic, and I like it this way, but I wonder if I've taken all the bits out of it that really interest other people.
[/quote]
Magic is a part of the natural world: None of this "magic is separate/comes from another dimension" stuff.  Or the "magic is unnatural" stuff.  Magic is an integral force to this universe and allows for quite fantastic things to be part of the natural order.
[/quote]
Sentient species who look kinda weird but aren't incomprehensible: Aliens with incomprehensible minds and that look really weird are okay for authors that want to show that kind of stuff, but I need the species of this universe to be able to come to understand one another (and for the players to be able to play them) and to generally have forms that people dealing with the setting will understand and will invoke associations with similar looking things on Earth.  This doesn't mean that all sentients would be humans with funny foreheads or even obviously something ripped from Earth, but could be described by referring to Earth things.
[/quote]
There isn't anything that can threaten the multiverse as a whole or even large areas: No apocalyptic evils or wars that span a large number of planets.  I think this sort of stuff should exist on a bit more personal level.  And it keeps the setting intact.
[/quote]
Full of secrets and people who know them: There are secrets everywhere from the olden times.  But the multiverse is so vast that you'd lose the pieces if you searched yourself.  Fortunately there are groups that have sprung up, from societies of conquest or hording lore to one of travelers and their waystations.
[/quote]
the portal idea sounds good. and no, it wouldn't be much difeent from just having one big world. it just makes drawing maps harder.^^

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawHigh-tech and magic coexist and complement one another: This setting still advances science even with magic around.  In fact they can use magic to help science, to help technology do more incredible things and to study something with precision science alone can't match.

Practitioners of magic fight about it's proper use: Flashy Summon vs. subtle Alter; emotional Primal vs. disciplined Soul; cyclic Green vs. draining Black.  These are a few of rivalries and conflicts that have sprung up in those attempting to understand the ways of magic.
[/quote]
Conflict happens, but mostly locally: If something like a war starts somewhere the bottlenecking nature of the portals usually means the war itself doesn't go farther than its own planet.  Other aspects, such as spies and terrorism, might, but it's really difficult to control that anyway.  And reprocussions of the war, such as disrupted trade and refugees, might go very far.
[/quote]
Old but not stagnant: The civilizations of the multiverse often have roots that trace back ages, but that doesn't mean they've been the same all that time: technology, science, magic, and society have progressed from the ancient days.
[/quote]
Full of secrets and people who know them: There are secrets everywhere from the olden times.  But the multiverse is so vast that you'd lose the pieces if you searched yourself.  Fortunately there are groups that have sprung up, from societies of conquest or hording lore to one of travelers and their waystations.
[/quote]
sounds all right. basically it's adventurers' guilds, isn't it? some formal corrections: "horde" is a lot of people, "hoard" is a lot of stuff. people always get that wrong. It's a universe, not a multiverse. Multiverse implies several universes touching or intermingling. "olden times" is one of those phrases you shouldn't use lightly.^^

Quote from: NomadicThis is totally fine. It worked good for the early episodes of stargate. You just have to remember the impact it will have (yes it will be massive). When people, material, and ideas can move between worlds in the blink of an eye it is going to shape things in certain ways. It will be less like a bunch of different worlds and more like one gigantic slowly changing world. The differences from one world to the next will be minor (outside of climate differences and such) though because portals are generally only two way the separation between worlds not directly connected will create a difference. So while a visitor from world A going to planet B might not notice any real difference, they would notice a big difference after they did a number of jumps and wound up on Planet S.

That's what I'm going for: the fact that the worlds are linked so closely would eventually form giant shared cultures with pockets of individualization.  I think it's useful for storytelling in that if you set up the shared culture of one region you can then shift around that region and don't have to continually update the readers/PCs on an entirely new culture, just some small differences.

Quote from: NomadicThis is something I agree with in terms of the current setting I am designing. I actually explained magic in a scientific form because I needed to know how it actually worked for such a setting. If you're curious enough I could post a summary of it here.

That would be nice, thank you, though I do have my own ideas.

Quote from: NomadicWhile my setting isn't high tech it does blend technology and magic. Things that would normally be handled in a mundane fashion can be done much more efficiently with magic, thus they are done so.

I'm not supposing that everyone can necessarily do magic, and/or that they can't all do all the same magic.  So technology allows those who can't to catch up.  Also it seems to me that technology is a very good 'backup' or 'crutch', so that you don't always have to rely on magic.

Quote from: NomadicInteresting stuff here, I am curious as to what exactly some of these groups are (though I get the gist of most of them). In my setting this sort of rivalry is in full power. Many groups argue over how exactly it works, both the scientifically minded as well as religiously minded.

This thread is just to try to gauge what I have in terms of what people think of it.  So there was less reason to detail these groups than provide enough examples that people understand that there's rivalry.
As for you religion comment: I did have some ideas that maybe in a universe of this sort of diversity the fact that magic is shared would make it a logical choice for holding peoples' religion (while still having a secular angle, possibly leading to an extra part of every conflict when the secular and religious aspects of a magic also fight each other).  I know when I first thought up Summon and Alter they had quasi-mystical meanings associated with them.

Quote from: NomadicI might still suggest that you think about how an interplanetary war might play out. The portals would act as chokepoints so it would be a matter of who struck first and who was able to hold the portal. I personally think this would make such conflicts very quick and heavy handed (like the German blitzkrieg).

I have thought about these, and you're right on.  The thing I think about a big war is that if a side managed to control all the portals of a planet they're insanely fortified.  To hope to stop them you'd either have to launch heavy (and possibly suicidal) attacks against a portal, or cut off their trade and hope they don't have the resources to hold out.  Multiply that by a large number of controlled planets and you're talking an almost impregnable force.
The implications are that people are going to want to avoid letting anyone get that much hold.  Also this raises the importance of small strike forces and spies in case that happens (insert PCs).

Quote from: NomadicHow old are you thinking, might there be ancient ruins? Perhaps even entire abandoned planets with the remains of dead civilizations.

Really old.  I'm even thinking there should be multiple ancient civilizations that stretch the timeline back eons.
And yeah, it's like having a 'lost world' on Earth, only bigger. :D

Quote from: NomadicI don't quite understand this part, could you explain it a bit clearer for me?

Whoops. x. I got caught up and probably should have put more into that.  I was basically trying to point out that there's a lot of stuff for the PCs to find or me to base adventures off of, and lots of multiplanetary groups that they might either be up against or join.  I know other GMs consider these important factors for a setting.

Quote from: Gamer PrintshopNot to get all "stargatey" on you. When asking about the implications of using a portal system. I think of the episodes with the "Ashin" who offered high technology, extended lifes, free from disease or illness, but insidiously causing sterility. After a single generation as a close portal partner, the Ashin take over and make the world into another farm or resource to exploit.

Huge vehicles with tons of grain was poured into horizontally placed portals to some bin receptacle to catch it on the otherside. They used the stargate portals to the most efficient and xenophobic process.

I don't quite know if that sort of thing could spring up in this multiverse.  I don't think a single species could get that far by science or magic before getting connected to the rest of the multiverse and having to eventually give up their xenophobic ways or remain completely isolated.  For one thing they'd be playing catch up with a society who's diversity would be condusive to innovation and who has been at it longer.  If an 'Ashin'-type civilization found some ancient artifacts maybe.
Plus a whole culture of xenophobes strikes me as too monoculture cliché.  It seems to me that somewhere along the line some part would start not to like what's going on and might shatter the society.  Especially the further spread out they got.

Quote from: Gamer PrintshopThat doesn't mean a more conventional war could not occur, but I agree with Nomadic that since portals are choke points, thus would be a single incident then a cold war by not using that Portal between places, each heavily guarded awaiting the next incident.

No offense, but I'm having a hard time reading those last two clauses.

Quote from: Gamer PrintshopI could see a Church considering it divine magical portals and becoming those airports, and toll collectors for all transport between planets. Becoming fat, wealthy and exploitive with too much power, causing political strife so the war is not between planets, but with those trying to control the portals between them.

That sounds like a very good idea for having a war-torn place, which is useful for all sorts of reasons.

First off you might want to check you post, I couldn't see any of this till I hit 'quote'.

Quote from: Scholarthis is called "passive-aggressive". it's a dirty trick. :)

Yeah, I have problems sometimes.  I'm attempting to learn not to have them.

Quote from: Scholarthe portal idea sounds good. and no, it wouldn't be much difeent from just having one big world. it just makes drawing maps harder.^^

That's okay, I can't draw.  Plus I like it when stuff doesn't have a concrete locations.  I'm very much a fan of the 'it's over here, somewhere, does it really matter' school of location.

Quote from: Scholarso, magic is the nephew of gravity? is magic so scientific that someone could major in philosophy, linguistics and applied thaumatology? how hard is it to do magic? what is there that magic can't do? these are two very important questions, because magic can do everything and everyone can do it, there's no need for real work, technology or other sciences. i'm not spending 8 hours a day at a factory when i can just summon some magical servitor or animate a construct to do it. nor am i spending two weeks at a library to do my term paper when i can just do some clairsentience and let magic ghostwrite my stuff. :)
'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦
see my last point. if magic is too convienient, scientific progress becomes obsolete.

Hmmm, so the first thing is that I'm not sure I want to get down exactly what magic is.  It's probably more condusive to study and debate (as well as some mystery) that there be some room for interpretation.  But you can major in studying it.
Can anyone do magic?  My idea is no, at least not all kinds of magic.  There might be kinds of 'magic' that are really asking something else to do the magic for you, but real magic is an inborn ability to work with its energy.  This doesn't mean having the potential guarantees you'll be a mage: you might be born with it but it gets stunted by something during your growth, you might not get the full version, or you might have all the potential but never get the training you need.  Like any inborn talent there are going to be a variety of factors to how it plays out.

Quote from: Scholarlike the Force? can animals use magic, too?

If magic is impersonal than it doesn't distinguish who can use it by sentience or lack of.

Quote from: ScholarJedi Knights versus Magic the Gathering? ;) are these purely academic conflicts or real conflicts like "my pokeymans are going to kick your meditative ass into next tuesday!"

I'd say they range, even among the examples I've given.  For instance both Green and Black have members who see the other as dangerous and to be eliminated, but not all of them do.  Soul practitioners often see Primalists as 'misguided'.  Summon and Alter are actually wrapped up in old ethnic conflicts.

Quote from: Scholarmind you, i'm not trying to be hostile, but you could just have shortened this down to "furry space aliens". cbg is one of these sites where you won't be trolled for it.

I'm not worried about trolling for liking to use furries.  I'm trying to give justification for why my aliens aren't logically 'alien'.

Quote from: Scholaras usual, you don't have the mindset for this. ;) portals are a general's wet dream come true. as long as you're attacking, you can have your war effort on your own world, safe from artillery or airstrikes, and at the same time it's right on the front lines. if you attack, you just lob a few canisters of chemical warfare agents through a portal and send in the chemotroopers. or send some poor bastard with a suitcase nuke. when portals are the cornerstone of interplanetary commerce, that means that they are a focal point for settlements. an attack via portal could be devastating.

You're right, I don't have the mindset for it.  I'm too peaceable.

I do have a few responses I've thought of:
1) Who in their right mind would let a war/dangerous enemy get so close to being able to cross over to their world?  I think if anyone had a reason to fear war spilling onto their planet they'd send some troops over just to keep the peace.
2) If you had a war/dangerous enemy on the other side why wouldn't you do everything possible to cap off the portal?
3) Based on the last two it would have to be a surprise strike.
4) With the range of species you'd have to be sure that chemical could work on all of them.  Plus with the technology and magic around could you be sure there isn't a countermeasure to both methods.
5) It probably wouldn't work more than once and would end the war for your side: unless you have a stunning way of blocking communication and move quickly to keep conquering everyone's going to know what you did and probably come down on you like a meteor strike just so you can't do it to them.  And they design the previously-said countermeasures while they're at it.
So you're right, it's a great tactic.  But I don't see how the portals make it a better tactic than it would be just used normally.

Quote from: ScholarWhat about entropy? The heat death of the universe comes for everyone and everything. ;)

I like to think of entropy as a necessary part of nature and not an enemy.  Plus for the time scale of people it doesn't act fast enough.

Quote from: Scholarhow long? progressed from where to what?

I mostly wanted to assure people that I wasn't going to route of '10,000 of Medieval Europe' sort of thing.  I haven't gotten far enough to answer your question yet.

Quote from: Scholarsounds all right. basically it's adventurers' guilds, isn't it?

Some are, some are other sorts of groups.

Quote from: Scholarsome formal corrections: "horde" is a lot of people, "hoard" is a lot of stuff. people always get that wrong.

D'oh. x.

Quote from: ScholarIt's a universe, not a multiverse. Multiverse implies several universes touching or intermingling.

Can I use 'universes'?  I just don't want to repeat 'multiverse' over and over.

Quote from: Scholar"olden times" is one of those phrases you shouldn't use lightly.^^

Why?  Again, I was trying not to repeat myself.

Hmm, this is confusing reading with all those quests and invisible posts :P
Anyway, here are my thoughts.
Portals are cool, but i think i'm missing some points. They seem to be ground-based, but are they artificial or natural? and if it is the first, are they made with current technology or ancient unknown technology? If made with current tech, how do you decide where they go?
Your magic sounds cool and i agree with many of your points. Questions though: How do they manipulate this if it is a natural force? What can they do with it? How does magic show in the natural world as a free force?
The premise sounds good, but it seems to lack the "twist". Of course, you might have something up your sleeve or some interesting worlds or something. But just thought i would mention it.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawI'd say they range, even among the examples I've given.  For instance both Green and Black have members who see the other as dangerous and to be eliminated, but not all of them do.  Soul practitioners often see Primalists as 'misguided'.  Summon and Alter are actually wrapped up in old ethnic conflicts.

Quote from: ScholarWhat about entropy? The heat death of the universe comes for everyone and everything. ;)

I like to think of entropy as a necessary part of nature and not an enemy.  Plus for the time scale of people it doesn't act fast enough.
[/quote]some formal corrections: "horde" is a lot of people, "hoard" is a lot of stuff. people always get that wrong.[/quote]
D'oh. x.[/quote]

Quote from: Scholar"olden times" is one of those phrases you shouldn't use lightly.^^

Why?  Again, I was trying not to repeat myself.[/quote]
[/quote]
it's just something we get a slap on the wrist for in text production. it's purple prose. ;)

Quote from: Crippled CrowHmm, this is confusing reading with all those quests and invisible posts :P

I'm open to suggestions if you have any.

Quote from: Crippled CrowPortals are cool, but i think i'm missing some points. They seem to be ground-based, but are they artificial or natural? and if it is the first, are they made with current technology or ancient unknown technology? If made with current tech, how do you decide where they go?

It actually says in the first post that they're naturally occurring, but require some sort of activation to open.

Quote from: Crippled CrowYour magic sounds cool and i agree with many of your points. Questions though: How do they manipulate this if it is a natural force? What can they do with it? How does magic show in the natural world as a free force?

Just because it's a natural force doesn't mean it can't be bent and redirected.  If gravity can bend light than it's possible that magic users can bend magic's course.
For what they can do I lean toward the idea that simple, straightforward things are easier to accomplish, and if want to do something with more parts it gets harder to do.  That still leaves you plenty of things to do, from teleportation to changing matter to blasting stuff.
I'd say magi shows up in the natural world by allowing things to happen that can't under normal physics.  Floating islands, magical beasts, that sort of stuff.

Quote from: Crippled CrowThe premise sounds good, but it seems to lack the "twist". Of course, you might have something up your sleeve or some interesting worlds or something. But just thought i would mention it.

You're right, it doesn't have much of a twist yet.  Being honest I can't guarantee that I have one or can make one, but I'll try.

Can portals be deactivated? If so the easiest way to win a war would be to lob a nuke through a portal and then close it.

Quote from: Scholarbut it does, if it's academic. the only animals allowed in the university are seeing-eye dogs. ;)

Point.  I think the best way to put it is that the ability to do things impossible under normal physics can be born in both sentient and non-sentient life forms, but sentient life forms can train to know how to use it creatively.

Quote from: Scholarare these concept names or are there actual organisations called "green" and "black".

Those are the names given to the types of magic.

Quote from: Scholarnormally, one of the hardest things in military campaigns is protecting your supply routes from skirmishers and air attacks (depending on the tech-level). you have much shorter supply routes when you can hide them behind a portal you control.

You're so right.  But that works for everyone, so it really restricts how far a war can get.  Also if you try to circle "around" and enemy that might be a very big "around" if all your other portals don't lead to any planets directly connected with your enemy.

Quote from: Scholarthere *are* chemical agents that kill off mostly everything. things like sulphrous mustard or sarin. if it has skin, or mucous membranes and a respiratory system, it's gonna die. in a really gruesome way.

Wikipedia-ed......................... :wtf: .  Yeah these would do it.  Though isn't there also something called a Neutron Bomb?
But if you have magic, I'd bet you could come up with something even worse. ;)

Quote from: Scholaryou're getting better at war-think, tho. :)

Makes my brain hurt. x.

Quote from: Gnomish CheetosCan portals be deactivated? If so the easiest way to win a war would be to lob a nuke through a portal and then close it.

Ah, I see where I must be falling down: when I say "activated" I mean "you have to make them open and stay open".  So yes, you can shut them down.  My bad. :hammer:

And what is it with you people and nuking everything?  You're wasting precious nuclear material.  Irradiate a dragon, stuff it through, and then sit back with some popcorn as it breaths radioactive fire all over the place.  (Sorry, couldn't resist. :P)

I understand why you keep mentioning these things, but the way you make war out to be it seems that no setting with this level of technology should ever survive, portals or no.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawI understand why you keep mentioning these things, but the way you make war out to be it seems that no setting with this level of technology should ever survive, portals or no.

Well the higher your tech the more devastating the wepons get. And the more devastating they are, the more crazy militaristic types are going to want to use them.

Quote from: Gnomish CheetosWell the higher your tech the more devastating the wepons get. And the more devastating they are, the more crazy militaristic types are going to want to use them.

So how do you keep the place from going all post-apocalypse?

[ooc]Why the hell did i say quests before? Not even sure what i wanted to say...[/ooc]
And sorry i missed the point about the portals being natural. It's never any fun when people don't read one's material properly :)
What shape do the portals take? Holes in the world, shimmering sheets of silver, invisible?
Could you lift the curtain slightly on your "schools" of magic? I love alternative ideas for magic so can't wait to hear what you've come up with :)

[spoiler=maybe]have some sort of super orginization that is sanctioned by many governments that uses any and all methods to control these weapons.(Insert PC's as low-level members.)[/spoiler]

And as to how you could avoid massive damage to your world, you can just produce counter-technologies. Anti-biological warfare in the form of nanobots, Missile shields to prevent nukes, and sufficient protective clothing to avoid chemical weapons.

[spoiler=A Note on Magic]
This is how my magic works, I am of course not expecting you to use it but I think that perhaps it might just give you some ideas...

First off, magic is not called magic in my world. Magic implies something extraordinary and undoable by mortals. My magic can be done by just about anything with life in it. What it is called of course depends on the person and the groups they belong to. How it operates is fairly straight forward. Life energy, known as Aether to many scholars, is what powers all living things. Like other sources of energy these things bleed off the excess which drifts off, sometimes converting into other energies, sometimes not. This life energy is just like any other energy, it can be used to power things and it can be converted into other forms of energy. One important fact, certain electrical frequencies can affect the aether in a user's local vicinity. The brain of many animals is capable of generating this frequency. Depending on the frequency and how it's used one could cause a piece of wood to burst into flame, or a bolt of lightning to shoot from their hand, or many other different effects. The aether though of course has it's limits. A body cannot continue to channel it forever as it can only take so much energy passing through it before damage occurs. It also is in limited supply as it is generated by living things. A user can draw off their own supply even in an empty wasteland, but they will run out of a usable supply much sooner than if they were in a vibrant city.
[/spoiler]

As to the military thing... yes war is going to be less common. However, it will happen, and when it does it is going to be extremely brutal and quick. Bombs thrown through portals, shock troopers, and surprise invasions. The attacker is going to want to secure the portal and then begin pumping an army through. In the meantime they will probably send out strike forces to find and secure all other planetary portals so as to cut them off from allies. The defender of course is going to try to stop them, to push them back or to shut off the portal and wipe out those still on this side. And note that these would truly be lightning wars. A successful attacker wouldn't even let the other side know they were going to attack until the first gas grenades had been tossed through the portal. This is not to say that there will be war everywhere. I think most places will get along fine, or at worst be in a state of cold war. You will though have a few nasty ones though as well as the standard conflicting interests escalating thing from time to time.

Quote from: Crippled CrowWhat shape do the portals take? Holes in the world, shimmering sheets of silver, invisible?
Could you lift the curtain slightly on your "schools" of magic? I love alternative ideas for magic so can't wait to hear what you've come up with :)

I'll answer both those questions, but you're going to have to give me some time.  I'm a little drained at the moment.

Quote from: Gnomish Cheetoshave some sort of super orginization that is sanctioned by many governments that uses any and all methods to control these weapons.(Insert PC's as low-level members.)

Quote from: Crippled CrowAnd as to how you could avoid massive damage to your world, you can just produce counter-technologies. Anti-biological warfare in the form of nanobots, Missile shields to prevent nukes, and sufficient protective clothing to avoid chemical weapons.

Both of these are very good ideas.  I actually had said something in an earlier response to Scholar that if the methods had been used before there were going to be countermeasures developed.

Truly, though, I'm going to avoid needing to think much about this.  Getting into the heads of the people who do that'¦'¦'¦'¦it's very uncomfortable.  Scary.  My mental health gets much better results from things like Bond villains.

Quote from: NomadicAs to the military thing... yes war is going to be less common. However, it will happen, and when it does it is going to be extremely brutal and quick. Bombs thrown through portals, shock troopers, and surprise invasions. The attacker is going to want to secure the portal and then begin pumping an army through. In the meantime they will probably send out strike forces to find and secure all other planetary portals so as to cut them off from allies. The defender of course is going to try to stop them, to push them back or to shut off the portal and wipe out those still on this side. And note that these would truly be lightning wars. A successful attacker wouldn't even let the other side know they were going to attack until the first gas grenades had been tossed through the portal. This is not to say that there will be war everywhere. I think most places will get along fine, or at worst be in a state of cold war. You will though have a few nasty ones though as well as the standard conflicting interests escalating thing from time to time.

I can live with this.  As I said in an earlier post there's always a limit to how often you can get away with the WMDs before neighbors decide to cut you down to protect themselves.  If you don't use that method but just attack quickly in a more normal manner they won't have a special reason to jump in (just any normal ones).  Espionage/influence would be much more effective.

It would also be fun for players to play one of those strike squads trying to shut down the planet's portals (or play the opposite end, a squad trying to take out a strike squad).

Why does there seem to be this assumption that political states cover entire planets or even multiple planets? How are such enormous super-states able to form in the first place, and what prevents them from fragmenting?

When I first read the listed ideas, I was thinking more in terms of our world - a large number of political states existing just among a single species on a single planet. The very idea of the whole thing being under the sway of only one government is obviously unrealistic.

So, what makes mankind (or non-human species) so different in the portal universe? The presense of portals certainly wouldn't be it; making the world bigger isn't likely to promote political unity. Perhaps the answer could be found in technology or magic?

Or, if the world(s) actually are divided to many competing states as is our world, then you should consider that:
A ) Not all states will have portals in their territory, and most probably won't have many. Those who control a portal may end up holding monopoly over traffic to a particular world, which they can exploit for great deal of profit and influence (but only IF the portal actually leads to some useful location rather than an inhospitable backwater, and the location can't be easily reached via other portals on that planet).
B ) The importance of portals to international trade will be restricted because said traffic will still have to cross many national borders when going overland (or by sea, air) from the portal to a destination point on a planet. From the point of view of a minor state without it's own portals, is there really any difference between importing stuff from another planet, going through a portal in some distant land's territory, and importing stuff from the other side of the globe on their own planet? Simply having some portal scattered around a planet's surface won't reduce the cost of imports unless you're lucky enough to be near one, or if the items to be imported would be much more expensive to produce on the home planet (or impossible for that matter).
C ) As far as wars and the like go, a successful invasion through a portal wouldn't be so different from a conventional invasion from a political point of view (though probably more difficult from military point of view). No matter the fact that you're crossing from one planet to another, it's still state A invading state B. NOT to be read as "Planet 1 invading Planet 2", when both planets are divided into many states, some of them supporting, some opposing and many neutral regarding the conflict.

You might want to think about environmental factors here, too. Suppose that a portal connects planets X and Y. On X, the portal is located on a good, convenient place where civilization is well established. The other side, on Planet Y, OTOH is located on a desert, glacier or some other inhospitable place that just plain cannot support a dense population. Under such circumstances, the area around the portal on Planet Y will probably become a colony of what ever state controls the portal on Planet X. This is because the natives of Planet Y would be unable to support a settlement anywhere near the portal, whereas the colonists coming through from X will be able to provide essential supplies (food, water, etc) through the portal. This can lead to interesting scenarios over time when changes in climate or improvements on technology or magic come to enable easier crossing of the environmental barriers. The colony of the X-natives might fall to attack by the Y-natives, or the colonists might use their portal-town as a base to expand further on Planet Y.

Quote from: GhostmanWhen I first read the listed ideas, I was thinking more in terms of our world - a large number of political states existing just among a single species on a single planet. The very idea of the whole thing being under the sway of only one government is obviously unrealistic.

Did I give an indication that giant mono-governments existed?

Quote from: GhostmanOr, if the world(s) actually are divided to many competing states as is our world, then you should consider that:
A ) Not all states will have portals in their territory, and most probably won't have many. Those who control a portal may end up holding monopoly over traffic to a particular world, which they can exploit for great deal of profit and influence (but only IF the portal actually leads to some useful location rather than an inhospitable backwater, and the location can't be easily reached via other portals on that planet).

That's a distinct possibility.

Quote from: GhostmanB ) The importance of portals to international trade will be restricted because said traffic will still have to cross many national borders when going overland (or by sea, air) from the portal to a destination point on a planet. From the point of view of a minor state without it's own portals, is there really any difference between importing stuff from another planet, going through a portal in some distant land's territory, and importing stuff from the other side of the globe on their own planet? Simply having some portal scattered around a planet's surface won't reduce the cost of imports unless you're lucky enough to be near one, or if the items to be imported would be much more expensive to produce on the home planet (or impossible for that matter).
C ) As far as wars and the like go, a successful invasion through a portal wouldn't be so different from a conventional invasion from a political point of view (though probably more difficult from military point of view). No matter the fact that you're crossing from one planet to another, it's still state A invading state B. NOT to be read as "Planet 1 invading Planet 2", when both planets are divided into many states, some of them supporting, some opposing and many neutral regarding the conflict.

Sorry, I'm a little confused as to what point you're trying to make with these.

Quote from: GhostmanWhy does there seem to be this assumption that political states cover entire planets or even multiple planets? How are such enormous super-states able to form in the first place, and what prevents them from fragmenting?

There isn't an assumption, at least not from me. The term planet vs planet is to differentiate between state vs state (which could be confused with war between two nations on the same world). There's nothing against having multiple nations on a world, but that is getting more complex then we need to worry about just yet. Right now most talk is just dealing with hoe portals will work on a planetary scale. Though the nation state possibility can slightly modify how civilization spreads between worlds.

Additionally, a portal being in a hostile environment won't be a guaranteed stopper to large expansion. If the area has valuable resources then the city is going to expand through the portal. Remember that this isn't two cities separated by great distance, this is one super city with a choke point in the center. In the case of a hostile but useful planet the city on the safe side would be pretty normal while on the hostile side you would have something akin to a giant industrial sector. However nothing stops the industrial side from getting huge since residents can easily just hop on over to the other side for a bit of relaxation, they don't have to 'live' there.

I think your best defense against a powerful enemy is peace.

Sure you could lob a nuclear weapon into a portal and call it good, but remember that your enemies could do likewise.

What I wanted to do with my Portal setting was have one very technologically advanced society, and several less advanced societies.

Another thought, My people are going to build upon and within the portals. The portals are not going to just be sitting in a field in Vancouver (like Stargate)

Instead, when a portal is discovered, a building is erected around it, basically an Airport (but for portals not airplanes). This airport has similar security measures as our airports, things such as Customs, Passports, etc. etc. Certain parts of the day are for civilian travelers, and certain parts are for traders.

When you walk through the portal, which feels just like walking through a door from one room to the other, you appear in another Airport millions of light years away, with similar defenses against attacks. It's safe, and it takes away a little bit of the danger.

Now, these portals are controlled by the powerful Portal Guild who maintain and protect the portals. There is such a thing as undiscovered portals, which the PCs might be apart of discovering. As far as wars go, I do have a way to carry that out.

We have Planet A, who have discovered a doorway into Planet C. Planet C is rich in natural resources and uninhabited. However, Planet B, a very warlike society Planet A has not had contact with before is interested in the resources too, and will kill for them.

SO you have your war, but it's very insulated. Like Having the United States and Russia duke it out in Australia.

Actually it's more like having Canada and Mexico duking it out in the US: there is no distance separating the two countries fighting from the place they are fighting in, only the distance within what they are fighting.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawActually it's more like having Canada and Mexico duking it out in the US: there is no distance separating the two countries fighting from the place they are fighting in, only the distance within what they are fighting.

Poor canada and mexico

While I'm remembering, would some unrealistic things really be that bad?  What is your personal point at which I'd loose your interest for having unrealistic stuff going on?

It depends on what is meant by unrealistic. A lack of internal consistency on any level begins to degrade my interest.

On the other hand, if you meteors spontaneously turn into bunny rabbits, that may not be realistic, but if it's the kind of thing that happens in your setting, that's okay.

Edit: typo fix

So long as unrealistic, in the sense of magical or fantastical, is differentiated from illogical or insensible, then I don't lose interest at all - quite the opposite.

So as long as I set a president for it, keep it consistent, and make it work logically?

I ask because in the stuff people have been telling me to think about, such as the multiple nations, I've noticed times when it seems that sticking closely to that sort of thinking makes it seem as if travel across more than one planet (even across one planet) would be an arduous affair of constantly checking at borders'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦just a multiplication of the troubles that happen during international travels in RL.

What I'm wondering is if it would be acceptable to gloss over that stuff for the sake of the story?

So long as those things are sort of present I'm sure you wouldn't need to go into detail about them, and certainly as a player I wouldn't mind glossing that sort of thing over either, even if I was aware that the border stuff was there.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawWhile I'm remembering, would some unrealistic things really be that bad?  What is your personal point at which I'd loose your interest for having unrealistic stuff going on?

as soon as it gets so arbitrary that the dm cannot hide he's beeing hateful or railroading. as the rest has said: internal consistency.
also, it's "precedent", not "president" :D

Quote from: NomadicAdditionally, a portal being in a hostile environment won't be a guaranteed stopper to large expansion. If the area has valuable resources then the city is going to expand through the portal. Remember that this isn't two cities separated by great distance, this is one super city with a choke point in the center. In the case of a hostile but useful planet the city on the safe side would be pretty normal while on the hostile side you would have something akin to a giant industrial sector. However nothing stops the industrial side from getting huge since residents can easily just hop on over to the other side for a bit of relaxation, they don't have to 'live' there.

That is pretty much what I was after with my colony example, though I think it would be easier to build houses (and set up any needed services, entertainment etc) for people working on the industrial side and just deliver supplies through the portal. Of course this depends on the actual size of the portal.

The important point about my example was that the environment can affect whether the city on one side would be able to expand to the other side - in the absense of significant barriers, the natives of the other planet would probably be able to take control of their side of the portal, thus preventing said expansion. All assuming that there's no huge technological (or magic) gap between the two.

Quote from: Gnome NachosInstead, when a portal is discovered, a building is erected around it, basically an Airport (but for portals not airplanes). This airport has similar security measures as our airports, things such as Customs, Passports, etc. etc. Certain parts of the day are for civilian travelers, and certain parts are for traders.

When you walk through the portal, which feels just like walking through a door from one room to the other, you appear in another Airport millions of light years away, with similar defenses against attacks. It's safe, and it takes away a little bit of the danger.

That's good thinking. It would seem strange for people to not set up things something like that.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawI ask because in the stuff people have been telling me to think about, such as the multiple nations, I've noticed times when it seems that sticking closely to that sort of thinking makes it seem as if travel across more than one planet (even across one planet) would be an arduous affair of constantly checking at borders'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦just a multiplication of the troubles that happen during international travels in RL.

What I'm wondering is if it would be acceptable to gloss over that stuff for the sake of the story?

Sure. It's not like one needs to describe using the toilet either, unless it's somehow going to be significant for the story. :-p If you need to have people going from planet to planet, you can just assume that they went through the customs and all's fine. But if it's a group of "wanted" people trying to escape across borders, it would be good to know what kinds of challenges they're going to face.

Some additional thoughts on portals:
There would probably have to be some sort of membrane or the  like or otherwise planets with different atmospheres would exchange air.
Are there portals that interconnect countries on the same world instead of just portals between different worlds?
Do dead-end portals exist? portals that lead into a star, deep underwater, high up in the air, or the vacuum of space?
Do they have the technology to shut down dangerous portals?
How long does a portal last?
Since the portals are natural, it seems logical that not all of them go somewhere useful. I already have a picture of groups of protective suit-wearing portal explorers sticking a long pressure-and-heat probe into an un-identified portal.  Of course, they might decide to leave useless gates open anyway. Portals to space might lead to the easy deployment of astronomical satellites, portals into the air enable unassisted lift-off (sort of), portals deep underwater can be used for exploration in submarines and the like, and portals into the depth of a sun can be used to reenact the plot of Sunshine without all the hassle.
I think i remember you writing in what i reckon was the parent thread for this one that portals only appear near sources of gravity. Is this still in effect, or is it something you have reconsidered?

EDIT: if the portals appear at random it might be necessary as there is vastly more empty space than there is matter. I reckon that was your reason for that limitation. But so as not to limit yourself you could just make it more likely that they appear near matter.  

Quote from: GhostmanSure. It's not like one needs to describe using the toilet either, unless it's somehow going to be significant for the story. :-p If you need to have people going from planet to planet, you can just assume that they went through the customs and all's fine. But if it's a group of "wanted" people trying to escape across borders, it would be good to know what kinds of challenges they're going to face.

Part of it is that in RL that you can fly over countries in planes and you only have to do the customs thing at the ends.  With all this talk about the portals and their limits I wasn't sure whether the network could support something similar, probably in the form of trains.

That might actually solve some problems of transportation: you put a rail line through the portal and you have an easy way to transport both cargo and passengers at that same time.  Travel further than one hop would be like a plane in that you can go through all the countries between destinations so long as you don't leave the trainport without passing through customs.

@Crippled Crow: First answering an earlier question:
What portals look like: A portal in its usual closed mode is nearly invisible.  If you get close enough you may notice a distortion of light in a one-dimensional area, possibly seeming to loop or "sink" into nothing.  Occasionally multicolored glitter will dance around this area.
Open the portal is a tear, a bit like an eye in shape, with the multicolored glitter as well as occasional sparks around the edges.  Through it one can see the other side clearly, though if there are differences in lighting conditions the portal greatly enhances them.

Quote from: Crippled CrowThere would probably have to be some sort of membrane or the  like or otherwise planets with different atmospheres would exchange air.

Since I don't plan on using much in the way of non-Earth-like planets this isn't a problem.  Maybe if the other side was water or something, but you can always find a way to deal with that.  Plus when portals are closed matter doesn't go through them.

Quote from: Crippled CrowAre there portals that interconnect countries on the same world instead of just portals between different worlds?
Do dead-end portals exist? portals that lead into a star, deep underwater, high up in the air, or the vacuum of space?
Do they have the technology to shut down dangerous portals?
How long does a portal last?
Since the portals are natural, it seems logical that not all of them go somewhere useful. I already have a picture of groups of protective suit-wearing portal explorers sticking a long pressure-and-heat probe into an un-identified portal.  Of course, they might decide to leave useless gates open anyway. Portals to space might lead to the easy deployment of astronomical satellites, portals into the air enable unassisted lift-off (sort of), portals deep underwater can be used for exploration in submarines and the like, and portals into the depth of a sun can be used to reenact the plot of Sunshine without all the hassle.
I think i remember you writing in what i reckon was the parent thread for this one that portals only appear near sources of gravity. Is this still in effect, or is it something you have reconsidered?

EDIT: if the portals appear at random it might be necessary as there is vastly more empty space than there is matter. I reckon that was your reason for that limitation. But so as not to limit yourself you could just make it more likely that they appear near matter.

In order: 1) Portals can only go from gravity source to gravity source.  There are two reasons for this: the first is just that having them work on planet as well as between planets feels more complex than I want; the other is that it's actually related to their scientific explanation.  I see these portals like wormholes: born from gravity warping space (and dimensions in this case).  They are an extension of a gravity source's own depressive effect on space, pushing a hole down through the fabric.  So they can only go the direction of whatever is on the other side of the fabric, which is another gravity source meeting it half-way.  They can't curve back around the planet to stay on-world.
2) Only if the dead-end leads to a significant gravity source.  Mostly this wouldn't be brought up in-story because those portals don't contribute to the travel aspect of the setting.  They'd still be useful, though.  There's even no reason, what with magic and high technology, that a portal underwater or in the air would impede anything.
3) Since portals generally don't work on their own all you have to do to shut them down is remove whatever power is keeping them open.
4) If portals have a lifespan it's way too long for any average mortal to notice.
5) It's a good limitation for story and scientific reasons.

Well, all my dead-end examples could technically be in the vicinity of a source of gravity. The space one could put you in the vicinity of an asteroid. I just think that using the portals creatively would be a great idea as they are one of the major assets of the game.
By the way, is magic only possible by way of high-tech equipment or is it possible for a human to control it with their minds? It sounds like you're leaning towards the first, with maybe a few races being capable of the second but can't be sure.

Quote from: Crippled CrowWell, all my dead-end examples could technically be in the vicinity of a source of gravity. The space one could put you in the vicinity of an asteroid. I just think that using the portals creatively would be a great idea as they are one of the major assets of the game.

One point of having portals is to eliminate space stuff.  Using them to mine dead planets or get helium from a gas giant are okay, since they're creative, but I want to avoid actually getting off a planet for any reason other than satellites (and with the technology available they probably don't need those, either).

Quote from: Crippled CrowBy the way, is magic only possible by way of high-tech equipment or is it possible for a human to control it with their minds? It sounds like you're leaning towards the first, with maybe a few races being capable of the second but can't be sure.

"Control'¦with'¦minds?" :?: Another lost translation there.  I'll try to answer it both ways I could interpret:
1) "Mind power" isn't scientific (because it proposes that somehow the electric/chemical signals of a certain type of mind somehow change reality without any sort of scientific medium) so it doesn't fit in my proposed magic scheme.  (Nomadic's "synapse firings lead to magic" idea would work fine, that you could direct the magic energy via that process, but it would work for any brain that transmitted that way.)
2) If you're talking about synaptic interface where the machine directly interprets your brain signals, yeah, that tech exists, but its flaw is that with every brain having slightly different signals it would need an "attuning" period or just might never work for more than one person.

My question was just whether you had "mages" or other people who were naturally capable of manipulating the natural force, or whether you had to build machines to do it.
And okay, i just reckoned they were still using satellites.
Oh, and an idea i had was if you had an "artifact" or mythical object in the shape of a map showing how all portals are interconnected. Can imagine it would be the target of a lot of treasure hunters.

Quote from: Crippled CrowMy question was just whether you had "mages" or other people who were naturally capable of manipulating the natural force, or whether you had to build machines to do it.

"Mages" are any of those people/creatures with the ability to manipulate the energy.  So either you can "do magic" or you need a device.
I suppose where I confused you is not making clear that when I refer to mages or magic users or whatnot I'm not giving any titles, these are me just referring to anyone who can use magic somehow.  Let me put it in gamer terms: it's like the difference between wizards and sorcerers in D&D.  You can train to be a wizards even if you aren't born with the ability, or you can just be born with it like a sorcerer.  Well in the multiverse you have to be born with it '" or possibly be altered to have it, you just need to possess it biologically '" so you're not doing anything other than training what you already have.  If you don't have it you can only get anywhere if you can control an outside source that does.

Quote from: Crippled CrowOh, and an idea i had was if you had an "artifact" or mythical object in the shape of a map showing how all portals are interconnected. Can imagine it would be the target of a lot of treasure hunters.

Only if it shows them a useful portal no one knows about.  I suspect by the current age of the setting you can get maps just as good as (if not better than) the ancient ones.

As promised here are some longer summaries of the sample magic practices I mentioned in the first post.
These are not written to describe how these magics actually work, only how people think they work.

Summon: The energy of magic forms in that space which surrounds the multiverse.  Inside the multiverse magic causes things to exist.  Magic energy enters on its own from time to time through holes that distort the fabric of space and create new matter and energy.  Some people can make themselves these entrance points: the Summoners bring raw magic in through their bodies, using the spacial distortion to move objects and converting the raw energy into the form they need.
Behind the magic: This would suggest teleport/telekinesis and matter/energy creation powers, but with some caveats: It's nearly impossible to fold space enough to move anything more than a short distance because the more you fold the more gets bunched up in the fold.  But it's actually possible to use this to change a mass's shape (though only so well, the magic's too chaotic for fine detail), though total mass and what it's made of stays the same.  This can still be used for movement: making continuous small teleports moves an object without exerting physical force on it and gets around gravity, and you can use this same process to make a moving objects seem to speed up by cutting the distance it has to move.  Also you can create spatial pockets for storing things in.  The really important aspect of this side of the magic is that it is able to activate portals.
For matter creation unfortunately Summon is not good at making the bits of matter stay together once summoned.  You're very likely to get a spray of sub-atomic particles, with some randomly sticking together on their own.  They're good blasters, though.

Alter: Things can be transformed into other things; magic is a universal catalyst.  With the catalyst in their body Alter mages can convert energy from harmful to non-harmful and cycle the states of matter as well as transmute its elements and shape.  Most powerful of all Alter mages can give animation to inanimate objects
Behind the magic: So they can turn things to gold with the usual logical results.  I figure people in this setting got used to this a long time ago and probably use something else for backing their currency.  They can also shape things, but this actually requires skill as it's a combination of various effects like softening and re-hardening matter and changing ionic or convalent bonds.  Only insane Alter mages try shapeshifting.
The changing energy results in really cool tricks: convert a bullet's kinetic energy and it bounces off you, convert the energy of fire and walk through it, etc.

Rivalry: The conflict between Summon and Alter is wrapped up in both religion and ethnicity.
In the region of the multiverse they originate in there is a religion centered around a duality: the 'Fire' warmth, light, purity, order, life vs. the 'Ice' cold, darkness, impurity, chaos, death.  For one aspect of this religion the Fire is 'good' (i.e. necessary) for the multiverse and the Ice is 'bad' (i.e. destructive) for the multiverse.  The inside of the multiverse's space is the place of good things, while outside is where the bad things come from.  So Summoners traffic in things that are dangerous, making them anything from pitiable to evil.  The issue isn't helped by the fact that Summoners often identify themselves with the Ice.  This is born from the other side of the religion: this side views both sides as necessary for the survival of the multiverse, neither one bad or good, but often prefer the Ice because it represents a type of freedom from ordinary life.  This side tends to see Alter as part of Fire's 'rigidity'.
The ethnic conflict in fact originated the religious split.  One species (who no longer have a common name) split into two groups eons ago: the Isamon follow the Ice-favoring side and practice Summon, and the Alfir follow the Fire-favoring side and practice Alter.  Like many ethnic conflicts the exact reasons aren't clear: it appears to have something to do with what happened to the combined species in an ancient time when a species of very powerful Summoners ruled their section of the multiverse.

I'm not sure the association with the elements fit the "feel" of your setting. Seems kind of misplaced. Animation could be achieved if you consider whatever you are animating a sort of puppet. The Alter-mage could manipulate by making it lighter or heavier to make it lift and drop limbs. If they can manipulate kinetic energy they could also grant it momentum. With easy access to gold, all electronic wires could be made out of it.
Altering energy has a lot of possibilities.
Does summon include telekinesis? It could at the very least be used to drop heavy objects on enemies. But other than that Summon doesn't seem terribly useful as it sounds rather limited.  

Quote from: Crippled CrowI'm not sure the association with the elements fit the "feel" of your setting. Seems kind of misplaced.

They are associated with elements by a religion, not by actually being associated with those elements in any way.  It's like fire being one of the four classical elements despite the fact that fire is actually a combination effect.

Quote from: Crippled CrowDoes summon include telekinesis? It could at the very least be used to drop heavy objects on enemies. But other than that Summon doesn't seem terribly useful as it sounds rather limited.

*sigh* At the moment Summon and Alter are still their older versions, when they were designed to actually work like that so as to be scientificly-based magic.  At this point I should probably drop any actual workings and re-write them from a purely "magical" perspective.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: Crippled CrowI'm not sure the association with the elements fit the "feel" of your setting. Seems kind of misplaced.

They are associated with elements by a religion, not by actually being associated with those elements in any way.  It's like fire being one of the four classical elements despite the fact that fire is actually a combination effect.

i think fire should be chaos and ice order, because fire is unpredictable, while ice is solid. :)

Quote from: Scholari think fire should be chaos and ice order, because fire is unpredictable, while ice is solid. :)

This isn't about which side is order and which is chaos.  This is about what's condusive (or at least percieved that way) to life vs. what isn't.

I changed my summaries of Summon and Alter to be more interesting and less cumbersome.  Please let me know what you think.

Sorry, it sounds like you understood telekinesis as a reference to a spell. With telekinesis i was just referring to the effect where you move something without touching it which could be possible with scientific methods. I wasn't trying to degrade your science system to simple D&D magic.

[blockquote=SilvercatMoonpaw]Through it one can see the other side clearly, though if there are differences in lighting conditions the portal greatly enhances them.[/blockquote]Wait, so if there's a bright light on one side of a portal and a dark cave on the other side then the light from the bright side won't spill through?  That suggests that light can't penetrate the portal which would mean that you wouldn't be able to see anything on the other side (because no light can be reflected from it).

Can I throw a ball through the portal, and will it travel through the portal as if traveling through normal space?  If I stand half in and half out of the portal with different lighting conditions will I be half illuminated?  What if I built a tunnel through the portal, like a pipe, and put a big light at one end.  Does the light abruptly "stop" where the division between worlds/planets occurs?

I realize this is a cool visual effect but it doesn't make much sense as explained.  Perhaps this is a case where our differing insistences on "realism" part company but this aspect of the portals makes no sense to me, at least if I'm interpreting it correctly.

Quote from: Steerpike[blockquote=SilvercatMoonpaw]Through it one can see the other side clearly, though if there are differences in lighting conditions the portal greatly enhances them.[/blockquote]Wait, so if there's a bright light on one side of a portal and a dark cave on the other side then the light from the bright side won't spill through?  That suggests that light can't penetrate the portal which would mean that you wouldn't be able to see anything on the other side (because no light can be reflected from it).

Can I throw a ball through the portal, and will it travel through the portal as if traveling through normal space?  If I stand half in and half out of the portal with different lighting conditions will I be half illuminated?  What if I built a tunnel through the portal, like a pipe, and put a big light at one end.  Does the light abruptly "stop" where the division between worlds/planets occurs?

I realize this is a cool visual effect but it doesn't make much sense as explained.  Perhaps this is a case where our differing insistences on "realism" part company but this aspect of the portals makes no sense to me, at least if I'm interpreting it correctly.

He said enhanced so I believe he means that if the other side is brighter than the portal is really bright. If it is dark then not so much.

Quote from: NomadicHe said enhanced so I believe he means that if the other side is brighter than the portal is really bright. If it is dark then not so much.

That's right.  Sorry, probably bad wording.

Quote from: Crippled CrowSorry, it sounds like you understood telekinesis as a reference to a spell. With telekinesis i was just referring to the effect where you move something without touching it which could be possible with scientific methods. I wasn't trying to degrade your science system to simple D&D magic.

It's cool.  I figured out how to make it sound reasonably scientific.  :D

Well this setting is coming along to the point at which I'd better actually start building something rather than posting random junk.  So I'm going to switch to my note thread, but before I leave you I thought I'd give you some of the campaign ideas I've thought up:

Premise: A mild-mannered city rests on the site of an imprisioned magical entity.  This entity causes periodic outbreaks of random magical stuff and occasionally tries to get out often with the help of some power-hungry nut.  The heroes must protect the city.
Twist: The entity's existence isn't a secret, the entire city knows.  They treat the magical outbreaks like infestations of particularly annoying vermin.  The city even has a special division assigned to neutralize the messes and stop anyone who'd let the entity out.  For one thing it's a tourist attraction!

Premise: Adventures at a magic school.
Twist: It's a school for Primal, the magic that's all about screaming and waling on people with your fists.

Premise: Cold war espionage in a border region.
Twist: Both spy agencies are tired of the whole affair and instead have joined forces to protect the entire region against greater threats while simultaneously fooling their bosses.

Premise: Fantasy adventure is a region of warm oceans, sweltering jungles, and baking deserts.
Twist: These environments exist in forgotten corners of one city suburb.  All the PCs are teenagers who live in the neighborhood.
Title: Forgotten Corners (no, this is name is not a rip-off of "Forgotten Realms")
Setting: In a seemingly normal city outskirt/suburb the places where hardly anyone goes have become a unified fantasy realm microcosm.
Adventure motivation: Elements of the fantasy realm get out or threaten to get out.  Elements of the outside world threaten to get in.
What the PCs do: Keep everything in order.

Premise: The place is Nexus City, a city unique in the multiverse in that via portals it extends over 9 different planets.

And some setting mythology:
[ic]There is a legend told about the first Wanderers.  In these legends they're call Fox and Cat.  Oh, that don't mean they're anything like any fox and cat you know.  No, these are just names People gave them because People can't think without names.

So this is a legend about them......well, it's actually a myth, and while it's about them being the first Wanderers it's also about them creating the reason to Wander in the first place.  These kinds'a stories are complicated like that.

So in the beginning Fox and Cat were doing......whatever it is that was before there could be Wandering.  And so while they were doing this they came upon a group of People.  These People, they were searching for knowledge, wisdom, meaning, all those things that People need to find, I guess because they lost them sometime.  And when Fox and Cat came upon the People the People knew who they were, and said "Great Fox and Great Cat, who know many things, will you please lead us to find knowledge, wisdom, meaning, ourselves?"

And Fox and Cat, well, they exchanged a glance, and then said "Follow our pawprints, and you shall find yourselves.  For your selves are quite near."

And they were away.  And the People followed, and tracked them by their pawprints, not matter how far they were from one to another.  See, Fox and Cat have long strides, and to find their pawprints you have to search quite long.  But the people kept at it, and they kept going and going, farther and farther.  Sometimes one of the People would call out "Is it much farther?"  And Fox and Cat would call back "No, no, your selves are very near."  And the People kept following.

Even today, they are still following.

Eh, what's that you ask?  "Are they the Wanderers?"  No, remember what I said?  Fox and Cat, they were the first Wanderers.  Not the People who followed.

A Wanderer is not someone who follows and seeks.  A Wanderer is someone who goes first and calls back "What you seek is very near."[/ic]
[ic]Some people call it the "Out-there".  The Wanderers call it the "Out-here".[/ic]