I have been thinking about including currency in my TL4 fantasy setting that is not made out of precious metals. I am doing this mostly to add flavor to the world, and, in one case, provide a viable currency for a race where mining does not exist. Paper, or parchment, currency would be nearly impossible to produce in substantial numbers, but I have toyed with the idea of having documents with an official Treasurer's Seal acting as a "check". Other materials under consideration are coral, wood, and crafted stone.
The main concerns I have are counterfeiting and how feasible these types of currency would be. Some methods of combatting counterfeiting is magic auras (although this might be a bit difficult for the layman peddler with no Magery), stamped seals, intricate carvings (for higher denominations).
Some ideas:
A living wood coin that has a thin moss film on it. To test whether the coin was legitimate you swipe off the moss, and if it grows back within a few seconds then it is a real coin. This type of currency is probably cost prohibitive.
A specific type of coral, with unique color patterns, carved into a coin.
Any ideas or critiques are welcome. Again, this if for flavor, but I want it to be believable and feasible. Any thoughts?
Certain types of Shells?
or GIANT STONE WHEELS. (Somewhat difficult to counterfeit; takes time an energy to carve them. And they can be used as building foundations.)
or Dead animal bones- specific bones, like the horns of unicorns?
or Teeth of certain animals- important livestock. The more teeth you have, the bigger your contribution to the community. Thus, in this community the shepherds and livestock owners would be rulers- thereby demonstrating a strong shift away from hunter/gathering.
Something that could be cool would be liquid coinage. Maybe merchants have a special vial that changes color if the liquid is sanctioned. But might be easy to counterfeit...
That's a pretty neat idea, Cataclysmic Crow.
If they have PH meters, they could have liquids of certain acidities worth differing amounts.
The thing about coral or wood as currency, is that it has to be representative of something with more real value, like the paper used to represent gold.
I don't know about a culture without mining (maybe barter), but crystals, gems, especially diamonds, and other hard materials could work. Also, livestock.
Didn't the Mesoamerican peoples use cocoa beans as currency? Whether it's true or not, I love the idea. Drinking chocolate would literally be drinking money...
Depending on how much your world is into blood-magic: blood would work pretty well as a currency. Payment would be a small self-inflicted cut with the blood being spilled in specifically enchanted vials that measure the value of the blood and protect its magical properties.
Would be compatible with Cataclysmic Crow's idea of liquid money.
Well, food was always a staple, as well as spices. Several types of spice in Medieval ages were several times more precious than gold.
Labor would be an interesting, if logistically difficult, way to go. You write checks for an hour (minute, day, seconds) of your time performing a particular skill at some level. Good are worth the amount of energy put into them, and services are based on a mixture of the time and the skill required to perform them.
In desert climates, you can have a water-based economy. Quality control would be easier to do, though regulation would be difficult to do.
[blockquote=Porklet]The main concerns I have are counterfeiting and how feasible these types of currency would be. Some methods of combatting counterfeiting is magic auras (although this might be a bit difficult for the layman peddler with no Magery), stamped seals, intricate carvings (for higher denominations).[/blockquote]
Much as moneychangers had to have officially checked scales in exchange-based currencies, I would imagine that there would be an official in the town would should be able to check for veracity, even in a small village.
Love the blood idea, though the inflation after a war might be a little much to take, though I can see the blood and the container being needed (so that the check on inflation would be the special vials).
I also like salt as a currency.
Salt and other spices are good ideas, but then the state would own all of the production of such spices. If cocoa was a currency, for instance, only the state would be allowed to grow the trees and anyone caught planting one on their land would face stiff punishment.
The only thing I find odd about precious metal currency is that it has no value aside from its aesthetic properties. Now a days we make gold wiring, but I don't think people back in the day were melting coins down into anything "useful"; it was just for jewelry and what-not.
Heck, our paper money in America isn't even backed by gold anymore. It's just backed by the assurance that the government will trade goods and services for it, so we trade goods and services for it. In a suitably advanced society, "worthless" money could work as long as it was difficult to counterfeit; it could have started with paper IOUs being given out amongst the wealthy, and eventually the IOUs started being traded beyond the initial recipients.
Heck, I think the Templars did banking like that, where you'd give your money to a Templar bank in your homeland and then when you got to Israel you'd turn in the receipt and get your money back (minus a fee). So it's not too outlandish for Medieval era thinking.
If you're going with a representative coinage, don't worry too much about cost efficiency. Circulation multiplies face value; a $1USD bill buys $1USD worth of goods each time it's used, so after being used 50 times, it's purchased a total of $50USD worth of goods. Really, your biggest concern here is preventing forgery.
If you're not going with a representative coinage, then you need something of real, practical value. In this sort of structure, potatoes would be worth much more then their weight in gold. Unfortunately, it's harder to standardize this sort of system. Even if everybody had equal needs for both potatoes and, say, bananas, some people might simply prefer bananas over potatoes. To those people, the bananas are worth more then the potatoes, even if both satisfy needs equally.
Agreed that the main problem is that with currencies of any practical value, the government cannot have a reasonable monopoly on the item. It's far easier to 'counterfeit,' for example, a bunch of bananas from an illegal grove than perfectly reproduce a coin.
And there's no huge reason for a system like this to simply be a barter economy by which one major trade good is the most common.
Yeah, barter is probably your best bet if you don't want coins. Then again, sea shells work, especially if they're made into beads. I like precious beads as an idea, and people's wallets are a leather string for stringing their beads.
It's not that I don't want coins. It's that I don't want coins made of precious metals, or coins made of something with an intristic value.
I like a lot of the ideas, and I appreciate the feedback. The liquid-based currency is interesting. I am a little concerned how it can be physically managed. Vials, barrels, and wineskins might do. I don't think any group of adventurers is going to be particularly moved by the sight of a dragon lying on a huge bed of wineskins (although the dragon would be infinitely more comfortable). However, I do have a nation that would prize water.
I am also intrigued by the idea of citizens being able to "wear" their wealth around their neck, i.e. a string of beads. Those beads could be coral, shell, pearls, etc.
One of the major pitfalls I have considered is international trade and exchange rates. Would this be better handled by an international merchant's guild? There was an empire, dead for nearly 50 years, but their currency was imperial coin of gold and silver. There is an alliance of a handful of nations, but they certainly don't speak for the rest of the world. Or maybe I don't need a standard exchange rate.
There's two different types of currency, fiat money and commodity money.
Bartering: The most primitive society will have a barter system. This system is very simple, but is has drastic efficiency concerns due to its reliance on a double coincidence of wants (both barterers must have something the other wants, or no trade will take place). A small economy, such as small villages or communes, will likely rely on barter economies. Also, should the government backing a fiat currency collapse or appear to collapse, most economies will fall back on barter in the absence of a reliable currency substitute.
-primitive
-reliable (doesn't depend on stability)
-inefficient (takes time, both parties must have something to trade that other deems valuable)
Commodity money: such as aforementioned metal, food, or spice currencies, is the slightly more advanced version of bartering. To escape reliance on double-coincidence of wants, an economy switches to a widely available, highly demanded, and standardly measured commodity. Basically this simply adds an extra step the classic barter transaction, where instead of trading for something that you directly need you trade it for something that you can assuredly trade in the future for something you need.
This type of currency allows societies to become more complex, and makes it easier for support professions (priests, lawyers, etc) to exist.
Historically, commodity money has ranged from metals (iron, copper, gold, silver) to precious stones, to spices (notably salt). Some (typically nomadic) cultures also used horses in a sort of hybrid barter-commodity currency system. Another example would be cigarettes in prisons. It is inefficient because a large amount of a useful commodity is tied up acting as a currency. It also ties the supply of money (and thus the value of it) to the supply of the commodity. If an infinite source of gold was found, the value of gold would immediately plummet and gold currencies would become worthless.
Commodity currencies also require some means for measuring it. Typically, this would be with a standard size (volume) or weight. A standard size would be a coin, but these coins were subject to having their edges shaved down, or could be forged with a mixture of cheaper metals. Standard weights are more exact, but rely on measuring weight (clumsy and thus inefficient), and could also be distorted with cheaper metals.
-more efficient than barter (but less than fiat)
-reliable (again, no reliance on stability)
-relies on ability to measure (which can be time consuming or inexact)
-money supply depends on supply of commodity (not controlled by gov't, can lead to inflation)
Fiat Currency: is also called a "representative currency," since rather than using a currency that has its own inherent value, you use one that simply represents something of value (or the promise of value). Should the society become sufficiently advanced and stable, a government can issue a currency in the form of something that is worthless in and of itself (such as paper money), and back it with the promise that it can be redeemed for something of value. All that really matters is that other people in the economy are willing to take that currency in exchange for goods and services. If everyone believes that everyone else will continue to accept that currency in exchange for goods and services tomorrow, then they will be willing to accept said currency as payment today.
The most important aspect of any form of currency is that it is accepted in exchange for goods and services, and can serve as a store of value. You could horde gold under your mattress, or paper dollars, or even salt, and have it remain valuable in a week. An apple, however, will not.
Forgery is still a problem, but control over the currency is still much more in the hands of the issuing party than with commodity money. Note that "IOU" currencies are a form of fiat currency.
-most efficient
-most sophisticated
-requires stability (if a country is on the verge of collapse, fears that its currency will no longer be accepted will erode its value)
Hoped that was of some help, and wasn't too long and dry. I can clarify anything I wrote if anybody has trouble with all the econ-speak :P, unfortunately its a hazard that comes with my major.
How about giving the liquid a special [magical|alchemical] treatment that locks it into a solid form, similar to freezing but without the temperature issue.
You could have "drops" as the smallest currency unit that can "flow" together to form "pints" and "gallons" or something like that.
Quote from: PorkletIt's not that I don't want coins. It's that I don't want coins made of precious metals, or coins made of something with an intristic value.
A representative system might be the way to go. In this system, it's not what the currency is made of, but what the currency represents. Most American money is made out of, well,
colored paper*. Really, by itself, it's almost perfectly worthless. Bring an American twenty dollar bill to, say, 10th century Ireland, and if you're lucky, you
might find somebody who thinks it's pretty enough to trade for half a loaf of bread. In modern America, though, the pretty colored paper represents a (now obsolete, IIRC) promise of a (theoretically) fixed amount of a precious metal.
*Okay, so it's technically a cloth. That's not the point.
Quote from: Halfling FritosBring an American twenty dollar bill to, say, 10th century Ireland, and if you're lucky, you might find somebody who thinks it's pretty enough to trade for half a loaf of bread.
Nah I'd buy $20 of aluminum and live the good life.
Quote from: GaranthHoped that was of some help, and wasn't too long and dry. I can clarify anything I wrote if anybody has trouble with all the econ-speak :P, unfortunately its a hazard that comes with my major.
It was a tremendous help. It taught me that I definitely want to stick to a representative currency. There can be spices and other valuables that can be traded, but they will not be the standard for the economy.
With the existence of an imperial currency that has been accepted for centuries it gives a relative value for minters of new and varied "coins" to work from. There are very few locales that weren't touched by the former empire economically, and a few of those that weren't are either primitive or alien in nature. The only thing I need to consider now is how these unorthodox forms of currency will be accepted in far off lands, if at all.
Quote from: PorkletIt's not that I don't want coins. It's that I don't want coins made of precious metals, or coins made of something with an intristic value.
I like a lot of the ideas, and I appreciate the feedback. The liquid-based currency is interesting. I am a little concerned how it can be physically managed. Vials, barrels, and wineskins might do. I don't think any group of adventurers is going to be particularly moved by the sight of a dragon lying on a huge bed of wineskins (although the dragon would be infinitely more comfortable). However, I do have a nation that would prize water.
I am also intrigued by the idea of citizens being able to "wear" their wealth around their neck, i.e. a string of beads. Those beads could be coral, shell, pearls, etc.
One of the major pitfalls I have considered is international trade and exchange rates. Would this be better handled by an international merchant's guild? There was an empire, dead for nearly 50 years, but their currency was imperial coin of gold and silver. There is an alliance of a handful of nations, but they certainly don't speak for the rest of the world. Or maybe I don't need a standard exchange rate.
Is it specifically the coins you dislike, or the whole notion of a commodity currency? Your wood chip idea sounds cool, and is an example of a "fiat currency," as I rambled about above. If this is the course you're going, just remember that the government has to be stable enough to warrant trust in its currency.
Also with fiat currencies, you run the problem of exchange rates. A commodity currency will be accepted in any country you go to so long as that commodity is in demand. With non-commodity currencies, you suddenly need to have the infrastructure for money-changers and currency traders, otherwise you run the risk of your PCs losing their accumulated wealth whenever they travel to a new nation.
On the other hand though, this just adds an extra element, and you can mix and match fiat/commodity currencies to get a nice effect. Perhaps a very powerful nation may have currency that is nearly universally accepted (a la US dollars), and could be those wood chips that you came up with. In other countries, like a smaller nation or one that relies heavily on foreign trade (thus making lots of currency exchanges a headache), a commodity currency could prevail.
For instance:
-Southland may be a vast empire that uses a fiat currency, which is accepted universally within the country and has some value even outside its borders
-Northland may be a nation made up of ship-bound viking barbarians. They largely barter, though a standard-sized ring of iron (used widely for ship building and weapon/armour crafting) is often used as a sort of currency.
-Westland is an an agrarian kingdom based off of a type of grain that must be heavily processed before consuming. Farmers turn in their crops to communal silos in exchange for credit vouchers that can be redeemed later for processed product (minus a tax), though they are also accepted by others in exchange for goods and services.
-Eastland is a merchant nation that trades heavily with southland (and thus southland currency is in wide use). They also use certain spices and a strong narcotic that much of the population is addicted to as a form of currency, knowing it can be traded onto the market for southland currency (or anything else) with minimal effort whenever one pleases.
Remember that, with a representative currency, you need a government to back it up, and you need it to be designed to prevent forgery. Intricate swirls of words so microscopic that they appear to be lines is good, having a five year old carve a smiley face into a wood token is bad. Preventing forgery is more important then cost effectiveness, since circulation allows the money to literally pay for itself; if it costs two monetary units to make one monetary unit, then make sure that each monetary unit circulates at least three times.
Quote from: PorkletQuote from: GaranthHoped that was of some help, and wasn't too long and dry. I can clarify anything I wrote if anybody has trouble with all the econ-speak :P, unfortunately its a hazard that comes with my major.
It was a tremendous help. It taught me that I definitely want to stick to a representative currency. There can be spices and other valuables that can be traded, but they will not be the standard for the economy.
With the existence of an imperial currency that has been accepted for centuries it gives a relative value for minters of new and varied "coins" to work from. There are very few locales that weren't touched by the former empire economically, and a few of those that weren't are either primitive or alien in nature. The only thing I need to consider now is how these unorthodox forms of currency will be accepted in far off lands, if at all.
Remember that with representative currencies though, their issuance (and thus supply) is directly controlled by the monarch. A large spending spree financed by newly printed money will flood the market with currency and quickly devalue it (inflation). You also have to worry about how far it can spread, since new currency can only be introduced into the economy by direct spending from the crown. Newly conquered peoples are likely to resist using a foreign currency, as are remote areas where very little of that currency ever reaches. For instance, a subsistence farming community would rather barter for their goods than use the worthless currency of some far-off monarch.
Really though, it's all about the "rule of cool." A nifty magical or outlandish currency may spark the imagination and awe of your players, but make sure that its not SO outlandish that they won't recognize it as valuable if they see it in a dungeon, or stumble across it in the wilderness. Also, don't throw unnecessary roadblocks in their way, by making them remember to hit up a moneychanger every time they travel a few dozen leagues in any direction.
I do like your "ancient empire" coins, very reminiscent of roman coins being used by early medieval europeans. Just make sure that they're made of something that will last hundreds of years. Nifty foreign commodity currencies like narcotics, strange salts, sparkling gems, or swirling beautiful seashells would be great additions as well.
Ah, another idea- Magically preserved organs (kidneys, eyeballs, hearts). Very useful in a steampunk setting; or a high-magic setting where there a lot of golems and faux-undead running around.
How about currency based on gnomes, everyone loves gnomes.
On a more serious note what about a divine currency. A long lost god used magic runes to seal his temples. Someone uncovered one such temple and discovered that these seals not only bind to a person who touches them while they are on an inanimate object, but that that person can willingly transfer them to other objects or people. They show up as tattoo like marks on the person's body. The symbols are considered very beautiful and said to grant luck to the bearer. Ever since they have slowly become accepted as a currency. In terms of plot hooks, apparently this god sealed all his temples like this so there are plenty of enterprising adventurers looking to add a few of these marks to their person.
Quote from: NomadicHow about currency based on gnomes, everyone loves gnomes.
On a more serious note what about a divine currency. A long lost god used magic runes to seal his temples. Someone uncovered one such temple and discovered that these seals not only bind to a person who touches them while they are on an inanimate object, but that that person can willingly transfer them to other objects or people. They show up as tattoo like marks on the person's body. The symbols are considered very beautiful and said to grant luck to the bearer. Ever since they have slowly become accepted as a currency. In terms of plot hooks, apparently this god sealed all his temples like this so there are plenty of enterprising adventurers looking to add a few of these marks to their person.
Never underestimate the value of a dead gnome.
That's imaginative, but how would one use that as currency?
Quote from: GaranthQuote from: PorkletQuote from: GaranthHoped that was of some help, and wasn't too long and dry. I can clarify anything I wrote if anybody has trouble with all the econ-speak :P, unfortunately its a hazard that comes with my major.
It was a tremendous help. It taught me that I definitely want to stick to a representative currency. There can be spices and other valuables that can be traded, but they will not be the standard for the economy.
With the existence of an imperial currency that has been accepted for centuries it gives a relative value for minters of new and varied "coins" to work from. There are very few locales that weren't touched by the former empire economically, and a few of those that weren't are either primitive or alien in nature. The only thing I need to consider now is how these unorthodox forms of currency will be accepted in far off lands, if at all.
Remember that with representative currencies though, their issuance (and thus supply) is directly controlled by the monarch. A large spending spree financed by newly printed money will flood the market with currency and quickly devalue it (inflation). You also have to worry about how far it can spread, since new currency can only be introduced into the economy by direct spending from the crown. Newly conquered peoples are likely to resist using a foreign currency, as are remote areas where very little of that currency ever reaches. For instance, a subsistence farming community would rather barter for their goods than use the worthless currency of some far-off monarch.
Really though, it's all about the "rule of cool." A nifty magical or outlandish currency may spark the imagination and awe of your players, but make sure that its not SO outlandish that they won't recognize it as valuable if they see it in a dungeon, or stumble across it in the wilderness. Also, don't throw unnecessary roadblocks in their way, by making them remember to hit up a moneychanger every time they travel a few dozen leagues in any direction.
I do like your "ancient empire" coins, very reminiscent of roman coins being used by early medieval europeans. Just make sure that they're made of something that will last hundreds of years. Nifty foreign commodity currencies like narcotics, strange salts, sparkling gems, or swirling beautiful seashells would be great additions as well.
I don't mind making it difficult, at times, for players to spend their hard earned currency. It can be a convenient way to control rampant wealth, but on the other hand I don't want to bog down the game with trivial activities. I certainly don't want to keep track of inflation.
There are two factors that might help bridge the gaps between local coinage from distant and unkown nations. The first is the aforementioned imperial coin. Most nations honor and value this currency, and that gives a relative worth to their own currency. Second, there is a merchant nation that has created a worldwide market and network that uses its own widely accepted Trade Bars made of gold along with a rudimentary language called Tradespeak. If this nation were to honor a state's currency then there is already an international market for its use thru these merchants.
Quote from: Light DragonAh, another idea- Magically preserved organs (kidneys, eyeballs, hearts). Very useful in a steampunk setting; or a high-magic setting where there a lot of golems and faux-undead running around.
There is a market for these things for use in alchemy and ceremonial magic, but digging in my pack past my kidneys to find a liver for the tip just doesn't appeal to me.
Quote from: Ra-TielHow about giving the liquid a special [magical|alchemical] treatment that locks it into a solid form, similar to freezing but without the temperature issue.
You could have "drops" as the smallest currency unit that can "flow" together to form "pints" and "gallons" or something like that.
The "drops" creates a fantastic visual, but I am still concerned about the portability. Carrying vials of valuable liquids, such as perfumes and elixirs, would really be no different. There are certainly valuable liquids on the market, but the feasibility of such an economic system would be too difficult to explain. Especially with viable alternatives.
Although, on a smaller, and more primitive, scale it could work. Especially if the people had few options to this sort of system, i.e. no metallurgy, limited resources, etc. As I sit here and watch The Emerald Forest, it occurs to me that primitive jungle tribes could use the sap of a rare tree as currency. The sap could have medicinal value so that it is highly prized but rarely used. This would make the accumulation of wealth wise in terms of preserving the health of your family; another form of financial security. Water used as currency in remote desert tribes might also work, but the daily consumption might makes its use limited.
EDIT: In reference to the sap used by jungle tribes. There is a scene in The Emerald Forest where Tomme goes thru a "coming of age" ritual. In the aforementioned tribe the "coming of age" could be the gathering of this sap from a distant source in order to start his life and attract a wife. Interesting possibilties abound, but there is the matter of consumption of said currency. Also, those who knew how to gather it would most certainly be in a position of power. They could be seen as divine, even, if the sap also had a religious context. However, currency on this scale is probably not necessary unless it spans several or many tribes.
Quote from: PorkletThat's imaginative, but how would one use that as currency?
Thought it would be pretty self explanatory. It has a value in its own right, enough so that people would desire it and be willing to trade for and with it. It is probably akin to the shell and bone necklaces of long past that were often considered charms that brought good luck, fertility, and so forth. Because of that intrinsic value they were an acceptable and oft used currency.
What about needles? Preferably stuck into something.
Teeth/fangs are also good. Maybe carven.
Sea-faring nations might make coins out of mother-of-pearl; it at least has an aesthetic value.
As mentioned, jewelry of all sorts would work well.
Tribes could perhaps trade with shrunk heads or some such for the hell of it...
Mirrors or colored glass coins perhaps?
Books or paper (as in blank paper) could be valuable, but probably wouldn't be considered coinage.
Hmm, all the ideas i could come up with for now... Some of them might have been said already.
Well, remember there are a couple requirements for money:
1. It must be portable.
2. It must be durable.
3. It must be divisible.
4. It must be worth something (by fiat or intrinsically).
As for suggestions, how about sea shells or beads? It'd be easy enough to make a necklace out of them for transportation and different size/color shells and beads could represent different amounts of purchasing power. The only thing that would be required is some social institution (be it a bank, government, or merely a common belief) to atribute value to the shells and beads. It wouldn't even require much of any technology, and thus would be fitting for any setting.
If you're worried about inflation, remember that creating this money could take quite soem time, both to gather and then to carve into appropriate shapes. That time spent could offset the amount of money that'd otherwise be earned if one just hunted a buck and sold it's skin. Counterfeiting doesn't need to be illegal or difficult--just less profitable than other means of earning money.
How about something created magically? Like have government mages "printing" the money, and they have a unique magical aura, depending on which government mage imbued the coin.
Or, you could just not have currency at all, but instead a free bartering system.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: PorkletThat's imaginative, but how would one use that as currency?
So the bearer would voluntarily give the "mark" to the other in payment. I see.
Quote from: Higgs BosonHow about something created magically? Like have government mages "printing" the money, and they have a unique magical aura, depending on which government mage imbued the coin.
Or, you could just not have currency at all, but instead a free bartering system.
I had considered a magical aura, but the layman peddler would have no way of ensuring the currency was legit.
There's a setting in I think Dragon magazine a while back that had a country where certain animal's teeth are used as currency. These animals are a rampant pest in the countryside, so a bounty has been placed on them by the crown. Teeth have thus become a sort of currency, since they can be turned in at any time in exchange for a portion of the bounty (assuming they are the teeth of the correct animal).
In practice, you could simply have different kinds of creature's teeth worth different amounts of money based on rarity. A simple knowledge check could be used to check for counterfeits (common animal teeth being passed off for bounty animals).
For a liquid currency, you could simply use a standard-sized small glass vial rather than a coin. Using drops would be arduous, but exchanging in varying sized vials wouldn't be much different than exchanging coins. You could do the same thing for a currency based on a powdered substance.
The liquid could be some sort of narcotic, a reagent used in the making of a local trade good, something with valuable medicinal qualities, or something magical that would be of interest to a local mages guild. My personal favourite is the narcotic, similar to the cigarette-based economies of prisons that i mentioned previously. An economy that runs on exchanging say opium for goods and services has an interestingly twisted and bizarre charm to it.
edit: Another cool medieval currency example has to do with the knight's templar. One of the templar's responsibilities was ensuring the safety of travellers making a pilgrimage to the holy lands. The main danger to these pilgrims was from armed bandits robbing them along the road. To protect the pilgrims and their belongings, the templars would buy the pilgrims belongings at the beginning of their trip, and give them an encoded receipt. Upon reaching the holy lands, they could then return this receipt to any templar office and receive the balance owed to them.
I always thought it would be cool for a magical medieval currency to be in the form of a magical snake tattoo that wraps around one's arms and body. It would be divided into small equally sized scales. Each scale would be given an arbitrary value (probably based on how rare/common the scales are). To transfer money, one would have to inscribe a small transmutation circle and place one's hand and another's inside the circle, perhaps speak a few words, and the scales would crawl/slide off one man's arm, across the circle and crawl up the other man's arm.
What I think I find most interesting about this idea is that one cannot truly hide how rich one is. Granted you could wear long sleeves but a brigand/bandit, or even a local Lord, could easily hire some thugs to strip you bear. It would definitely make taxation a much easier process, as well as theft. To hide one's wealth, a person could transfer their scales to a slave/trusted friend but that's just as risky as handing a sack of money to a similar person in our world, if not more.
Elf, it's a cool idea in very high magic world. But in such a world, I think counterfeiting might still be an issue.
Quote from: PorkletQuote from: Higgs BosonHow about something created magically? Like have government mages "printing" the money, and they have a unique magical aura, depending on which government mage imbued the coin.
Or, you could just not have currency at all, but instead a free bartering system.
I had considered a magical aura, but the layman peddler would have no way of ensuring the currency was legit.
In a fairly high magic world, there could be minor magic items that detected the government mage's aura. Depending on how expensive they are and how wealthy/generous the govt. is, it could be possible that they are simply distributed to each business.
Quote from: Seraphine_HarmoniumQuote from: PorkletQuote from: Higgs BosonHow about something created magically? Like have government mages "printing" the money, and they have a unique magical aura, depending on which government mage imbued the coin.
Or, you could just not have currency at all, but instead a free bartering system.
I had considered a magical aura, but the layman peddler would have no way of ensuring the currency was legit.
In a fairly high magic world, there could be minor magic items that detected the government mage's aura. Depending on how expensive they are and how wealthy/generous the govt. is, it could be possible that they are simply distributed to each business.
That was I alluded to earlier. Much as moneychangers had scales as tools, which were VERY expensive often, I can see some barely magiced items able to determine very specific items.
Quote from: Lord VreegQuote from: Seraphine_HarmoniumQuote from: PorkletQuote from: Higgs BosonHow about something created magically? Like have government mages "printing" the money, and they have a unique magical aura, depending on which government mage imbued the coin.
Or, you could just not have currency at all, but instead a free bartering system.
I had considered a magical aura, but the layman peddler would have no way of ensuring the currency was legit.
In a fairly high magic world, there could be minor magic items that detected the government mage's aura. Depending on how expensive they are and how wealthy/generous the govt. is, it could be possible that they are simply distributed to each business.
That was I alluded to earlier. Much as moneychangers had scales as tools, which were VERY expensive often, I can see some barely magiced items able to determine very specific items.
You could also have some sort of trick that a layman could use to roughly ward against forgery. Something like how people would bite gold coins to determine whether they were real.
Perhaps touching the imbued coin with their tongue or finger, and judging the legitimacy of it based on how the magical aura makes their skin tingle.
Quote from: PhoenixElf, it's a cool idea in very high magic world. But in such a world, I think counterfeiting might still be an issue.
It depends on how the initial batch of scales were created. If they were created centuries ago in a long-forgotten ritual then I'd say true counterfeiting would be near impossible since no one could truly replicate the spell. However, that would also mean that there could never be any true inflation. The government could never 'print more scales' in the hopes of paying off debts. However, an interesting side-effect of the nature of the scales would be that impure inflation could definitely occur, meaning that if the PCs found an ancient preserved corpse and stole/took its scales then that would be a large infusion of new money directly into the system. This brings up 2 concepts I had not considered, the first is the obvious one - would the scales last in death? Do they implant themselves deep into your skin, piercing your bone? Perhaps they magically preserve any portion of the body they touch... I prefer the latter. The other issue is the idea of government hording money. They couldn't just stuff it all into a safe; the government would most certainly have to possess hosts that would voluntarily or involuntarily be imprisoned in a high security prison/vault. These hosts would spend days, if not years in their cell awaiting their use. Would these people be treated like royalty or less than human creatures? I suppose that would be for the government to decide.
This also brings up another idea - can only sentient creatures accept/take scales or can non-sentiments (like dogs, cows, etc.) do this as well? I suppose it would depend on the use of speech during the ritual. If both have to speak then most animals are out. But what of Parrots and similar species that can mimic speech? They could be trained to repeat the ritual's verbal component... Granted it would be a VERY dangerous proposition to transfer your wealth to a creature that could just fly away but I can foresee certain people who would 'risk it.'
This also brings us back to the idea of the dead and how they could 'give' their scales to another. I would bank on the idea that a dead person does not have to complete the verbal component as the scales would desire a living creature rather then a dead one. Of course this implies the scales either have an instinctual behavior (via the magic) or are parasitic life forms who sustain themselves by feeding on living hosts (for what ever purpose).
Now to get to the flip side of the coin - what if the ritual is common and/or well known? Well I'd have to say that if the ritual to create more scales is well known or easily re-created then basing your economy off of it would be a foolish endeavor.
Finally there is a third possibility - all sentient creatures are born with a small amount of scales already on them. This would definitely mean that counterfeiting is impossible. However it also means inflation would be very common in that every baby would be born with some scales, which means every birth increases the total number of scales and thus decreases their intrinsic value. Thus I'd predict baby farms would be a very common, and most likely illegal, activity. An easy way to counter this would be for the scales born on a child to be weighted based on how pious, honorable, or some other arbitrary concept (that favors the frugal and/or those less likely to abuse the system) the parents were at the time of conception. An even easier way of restricting inflation would be to have a single generation (for what ever reason) born with these scales and that was it. No new scales can be created; the total number of scales can only decrease (as people die in incontinent locations (tombs, the wild, drowning at sea, etc.). This means there would be a great intensive for adventurers to exist and retrieve the lost scales as they are, essentially, free/easy money.
Another magic idea: significantly low-powered magical items, or stones possessing tiny amounts of arcane essence.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: PhoenixElf, it's a cool idea in very high magic world. But in such a world, I think counterfeiting might still be an issue.
It depends on how the initial batch of scales were created. If they were created centuries ago in a long-forgotten ritual then I'd say true counterfeiting would be near impossible since no one could truly replicate the spell. However, that would also mean that there could never be any true inflation. The government could never 'print more scales' in the hopes of paying off debts.
While inflation likely wouldn't occur, deflation most certainly would. The value of money has to do with the ratio between money and the amount of goods and services in the economy (thus the overall size of the economy). For inflation to occur, the money supply must be growing faster than the economy. However, should the economy be growing and the money supply be fixed, *de*flation would occur, as the amount of money available shrank in proportion of the number of things meant to buy it.
If the population and economy both continued to grow in proportion to the number of scales, you would suddenly run into the problem where scales were too valuable to be used in regular transactions and some other form of money must be used instead.
Also remember that in small towns that have little contact with the outside world, any currency is likely to be rejected in favour of a simple bartering system.
For the scale system to work, you may want to give the scales some kind of ritual or magic significance. Perhaps gathering a certain number of scales allowed an individual to perform a ritual that imparted the bearer with great power. Or perhaps scales increase certain physical or mental attributes of their bearer, tying a character's wealth to his ability. This way warriors would literally gain the strength of their defeated foes, and a warrior in dire straights could trade some of his strength in exchange for food or lodging.
Quote from: GaranthThere's a setting in I think Dragon magazine a while back that had a country where certain animal's teeth are used as currency. These animals are a rampant pest in the countryside, so a bounty has been placed on them by the crown. Teeth have thus become a sort of currency, since they can be turned in at any time in exchange for a portion of the bounty (assuming they are the teeth of the correct animal).
In practice, you could simply have different kinds of creature's teeth worth different amounts of money based on rarity. A simple knowledge check could be used to check for counterfeits (common animal teeth being passed off for bounty animals).
For a liquid currency, you could simply use a standard-sized small glass vial rather than a coin. Using drops would be arduous, but exchanging in varying sized vials wouldn't be much different than exchanging coins. You could do the same thing for a currency based on a powdered substance.
The liquid could be some sort of narcotic, a reagent used in the making of a local trade good, something with valuable medicinal qualities, or something magical that would be of interest to a local mages guild. My personal favourite is the narcotic, similar to the cigarette-based economies of prisons that i mentioned previously. An economy that runs on exchanging say opium for goods and services has an interestingly twisted and bizarre charm to it.
edit: Another cool medieval currency example has to do with the knight's templar. One of the templar's responsibilities was ensuring the safety of travellers making a pilgrimage to the holy lands. The main danger to these pilgrims was from armed bandits robbing them along the road. To protect the pilgrims and their belongings, the templars would buy the pilgrims belongings at the beginning of their trip, and give them an encoded receipt. Upon reaching the holy lands, they could then return this receipt to any templar office and receive the balance owed to them.
I had heard of the Templar's using those notes. I have considered using a form of "check" backed by the royal treasury.
It would interesting to use the animal's teeth angle for a primitive jungle tribe (or group of them) along with the "medicinal" sap as the higher denomination.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfI always thought it would be cool for a magical medieval currency to be in the form of a magical snake tattoo that wraps around one's arms and body. It would be divided into small equally sized scales. Each scale would be given an arbitrary value (probably based on how rare/common the scales are). To transfer money, one would have to inscribe a small transmutation circle and place one's hand and another's inside the circle, perhaps speak a few words, and the scales would crawl/slide off one man's arm, across the circle and crawl up the other man's arm.
What I think I find most interesting about this idea is that one cannot truly hide how rich one is. Granted you could wear long sleeves but a brigand/bandit, or even a local Lord, could easily hire some thugs to strip you bear. It would definitely make taxation a much easier process, as well as theft. To hide one's wealth, a person could transfer their scales to a slave/trusted friend but that's just as risky as handing a sack of money to a similar person in our world, if not more.
Nomadic offered up something similar. It certainly is an imaginative idea. I would be more inclined to use that as a transfer of power in a small magical group like a cabal or religous institution. Perhaps used during a power transfer ceremony.
One could counterfeit it my simply being tatooed. Then the currency would need some sort of magical aura or design feature to show the tatoo was legit. My main obstacle, so far, has been how to use a magical aura, or something similar, without leaving the layman peddler at the mercy of the system.
Quote from: GaranthQuote from: Lord VreegQuote from: Seraphine_HarmoniumQuote from: PorkletQuote from: Higgs BosonHow about something created magically? Like have government mages "printing" the money, and they have a unique magical aura, depending on which government mage imbued the coin.
Or, you could just not have currency at all, but instead a free bartering system.
I had considered a magical aura, but the layman peddler would have no way of ensuring the currency was legit.
In a fairly high magic world, there could be minor magic items that detected the government mage's aura. Depending on how expensive they are and how wealthy/generous the govt. is, it could be possible that they are simply distributed to each business.
That was I alluded to earlier. Much as moneychangers had scales as tools, which were VERY expensive often, I can see some barely magiced items able to determine very specific items.
You could also have some sort of trick that a layman could use to roughly ward against forgery. Something like how people would bite gold coins to determine whether they were real.
Perhaps touching the imbued coin with their tongue or finger, and judging the legitimacy of it based on how the magical aura makes their skin tingle.
I had considered having the coin sing if immersed in water or squeezed or sang to. It would be a simple act. It might work, but magic in this world is not a common everyday occurence (PC's notwithstanding). Magic usually has a more devestating or historic-level effect. I'll have to think on that.
Quote from: GaranthYou could also have some sort of trick that a layman could use to roughly ward against forgery. Something like how people would bite gold coins to determine whether they were real.
Perhaps touching the imbued coin with their tongue or finger, and judging the legitimacy of it based on how the magical aura makes their skin tingle.
Cold iron is often said to be harmful to magic and fey and that sort of thing, so perhaps touching a piece of worked iron to a "coin" would cause a ripple, or a color change, or something else as the magic was temporarily disrupted. You could even use that to differentiate denominations--the "prism" coin changes color, the "spark" causes a small flash of light, the "pool" ripples and the edges liquefy slightly, etc.
Double post. Damn quote button being next to the edit button....
Quote from: PorkletQuote from: Elemental_ElfI always thought it would be cool for a magical medieval currency to be in the form of a magical snake tattoo that wraps around one's arms and body. It would be divided into small equally sized scales. Each scale would be given an arbitrary value (probably based on how rare/common the scales are). To transfer money, one would have to inscribe a small transmutation circle and place one's hand and another's inside the circle, perhaps speak a few words, and the scales would crawl/slide off one man's arm, across the circle and crawl up the other man's arm.
What I think I find most interesting about this idea is that one cannot truly hide how rich one is. Granted you could wear long sleeves but a brigand/bandit, or even a local Lord, could easily hire some thugs to strip you bear. It would definitely make taxation a much easier process, as well as theft. To hide one's wealth, a person could transfer their scales to a slave/trusted friend but that's just as risky as handing a sack of money to a similar person in our world, if not more.
Nomadic offered up something similar. It certainly is an imaginative idea. I would be more inclined to use that as a transfer of power in a small magical group like a cabal or religous institution. Perhaps used during a power transfer ceremony.
One could counterfeit it my simply being tatooed. Then the currency would need some sort of magical aura or design feature to show the tatoo was legit. My main obstacle, so far, has been how to use a magical aura, or something similar, without leaving the layman peddler at the mercy of the system.
Well with my version you could make yourself look rich with tattoos yes. However, when the time comes to pay the piper you would not be able to do so. The tattoos are transferred through the will of the mind, floating from the person willing the transfer to the person/item that they are transferring it too.
I see this as creating interesting systems. Payment detailing not only what tattoo will be transferred for what item, but where on the body/item to put it. Note also that one can freely marks off an item to themselves. So while nobody can steal marks off a person they can steal them off an item. Note that a corpse counts as an item so threats of killing you and taking your marks could be very real. Anyhow I doubt it would be the only currency. You would have other more standard types while the marks themselves were counted as a higher type due to their symbolism of wealth and beauty. Most everyone wants them because of the social impact just like most everyone wants a new car or fancy motorcycle.
Quote from: Pair o' Dice LostQuote from: GaranthYou could also have some sort of trick that a layman could use to roughly ward against forgery. Something like how people would bite gold coins to determine whether they were real.
Perhaps touching the imbued coin with their tongue or finger, and judging the legitimacy of it based on how the magical aura makes their skin tingle.
Cold iron is often said to be harmful to magic and fey and that sort of thing, so perhaps touching a piece of worked iron to a "coin" would cause a ripple, or a color change, or something else as the magic was temporarily disrupted. You could even use that to differentiate denominations--the "prism" coin changes color, the "spark" causes a small flash of light, the "pool" ripples and the edges liquefy slightly, etc.
I could do something similar. I am never opposed to throwing up obstacles for spellcasters. I don't want to use iron. So I would have to come up with something else. Perhaps a mineral useless for anything but large scale building. So access to the mineral would be widespread, and it could disrupt the magic flow in or around it. I'll have to think on that one.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: PorkletQuote from: Elemental_ElfI always thought it would be cool for a magical medieval currency to be in the form of a magical snake tattoo that wraps around one's arms and body. It would be divided into small equally sized scales. Each scale would be given an arbitrary value (probably based on how rare/common the scales are). To transfer money, one would have to inscribe a small transmutation circle and place one's hand and another's inside the circle, perhaps speak a few words, and the scales would crawl/slide off one man's arm, across the circle and crawl up the other man's arm.
What I think I find most interesting about this idea is that one cannot truly hide how rich one is. Granted you could wear long sleeves but a brigand/bandit, or even a local Lord, could easily hire some thugs to strip you bear. It would definitely make taxation a much easier process, as well as theft. To hide one's wealth, a person could transfer their scales to a slave/trusted friend but that's just as risky as handing a sack of money to a similar person in our world, if not more.
Nomadic offered up something similar. It certainly is an imaginative idea. I would be more inclined to use that as a transfer of power in a small magical group like a cabal or religous institution. Perhaps used during a power transfer ceremony.
One could counterfeit it my simply being tatooed. Then the currency would need some sort of magical aura or design feature to show the tatoo was legit. My main obstacle, so far, has been how to use a magical aura, or something similar, without leaving the layman peddler at the mercy of the system.
Well with my version you could make yourself look rich with tattoos yes. However, when the time comes to pay the piper you would not be able to do so. The tattoos are transferred through the will of the mind, floating from the person willing the transfer to the person/item that they are transferring it too.
I see this as creating interesting systems. Payment detailing not only what tattoo will be transferred for what item, but where on the body/item to put it. Note also that one can freely marks off an item to themselves. So while nobody can steal marks off a person they can steal them off an item. Note that a corpse counts as an item so threats of killing you and taking your marks could be very real. Anyhow I doubt it would be the only currency. You would have other more standard types while the marks themselves were counted as a higher type due to their symbolism of wealth and beauty. Most everyone wants them because of the social impact just like most everyone wants a new car or fancy motorcycle.
I do like the visible wealth status aspect of it. I agree about corpses being items. However, in what way could a marking be stored elsewhere? Who makes these tatoos? Are they reserved for those of great wealth? Are they religious or magical in nature (other than the obvious enchantments involved)? Intriguing...
Quote from: PorkletI do like the visible wealth status aspect of it. I agree about corpses being items. However, in what way could a marking be stored elsewhere? Who makes these tatoos? Are they reserved for those of great wealth? Are they religious or magical in nature (other than the obvious enchantments involved)? Intriguing...
It would be just like transferring it to another person except it would be put on the item. People could use that to transfer marks over distance when they couldn't go themselves, or perhaps create a secret bank. Banking it by placing them on items is risky as anyone can steal the marks, but on the other hand it hides your wealth. As to their making like I said they were the seals to the temples of an ancient god. People discovered one of these finds and brought them back with them, and they sort of drifted their way into the local monetary system. Their rarity has made them sought after and they have been attributed with all kinds of powers (though questionable in truth). There is never a lack of treasure hunters looking to uncover a new temple and get wealthy, and from time to time it still happens.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: PorkletI do like the visible wealth status aspect of it. I agree about corpses being items. However, in what way could a marking be stored elsewhere? Who makes these tatoos? Are they reserved for those of great wealth? Are they religious or magical in nature (other than the obvious enchantments involved)? Intriguing...
I really like this idea, but more in the vein of these ancient and rare tatoos as a form of social status altering jewelry. That also brings up some other questions. I am wondering what religious conotations bearing one of these marks might convey? Does it give its bearer magical abilities or access to magery? Is it sentient, acting like a Spirit Vessel? They would essentially be living relics of an ancient god or spirits bound in tatoo form.
I do have four Elder Gods that have faded from memory. Their children are the gods of this world, but their symbology and essences permeate all things divine. In fact, their children are nothing more than facets of the older and greater gods. These tatoos could be passed down from time immemorable. One deals with elves and Fey folk, and another is confined to one race/nation of isolated people. However, the other two are juxtaposed and quite active in all affairs of humanity (as a force not a consciousness). Having pre-historical living tatoos of another divinity and time makes for a good story, interesting mechanics, and has a number of adventure hooks. I'll will have to muse on this.