WARNING SPOILERS CONTAINED IN THIS THREAD!
Welcome to the OOTS Rumor, Speculation and Otherwise General Discussion Thread!
Here we can discuss anything and everything pertaining to the Order of the Stick webcomic. This will be a Spoiler heavy topic, so no need to hide your spoilers with the spoiler tag.
Why not begin with a discussion about the recent events concerning V. Do you believe what V did was justified? Do you believe the bargain was justified but his actions following were not? Do you believe V is too epic now?
Well, what's left to say? V has been the target of the "transmute hero to a**hole" spell. I don't know how's that saying is going in English, but there's a German one "Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely" and V is a very prominent example of that.
Considering the consequences of V's actions - they may hit sooner than anticipated. Other than the (much hoped for) smackdown from "Mrs. T" ( :D ), what do you think would e.g. Hinjo do with V if he found out that V willingly accepted the proverbial "Deal with the Devil (tm)"? Think about what he enforced upon Belkar for much less.
Or what if V can hold the Splice for a few weeks? Why not just fly straight into ruined Azure City and nuke Xykon and Redcloak to hell, getting rid of the comic's main antagonists since (iirc) right from the start in a mere moments? Or how about killing Elan with Familicide to get rid of Nale?
On further notice, I'm utterly disappointed by Rick to pull the Shapechange stunt the way he did. I always thought that he would be too smart and too creative to join the "the most cheesy ways to circumvent game mechanics" crowd. Apparently I was wrong. Right now I'm really waiting for boulders the size of trucks being shrunken down to the size of a grain of salt and put into someone's meal to make him go *SPLAT* when the Shrink item spell wears off.
Quote from: Ra-TielConsidering the consequences of V's actions - they may hit sooner than anticipated. Other than the (much hoped for) smackdown from "Mrs. T" ( :D ), what do you think would e.g. Hinjo do with V if he found out that V willingly accepted the proverbial "Deal with the Devil (tm)"? Think about what he enforced upon Belkar for much less.
On further notice, I'm utterly disappointed by Rick to pull the
Shapechange stunt the way he did. I always thought that he would be too smart and too creative to join the "the most cheesy ways to circumvent game mechanics" crowd. Apparently I was wrong. Right now I'm really waiting for boulders the size of trucks being shrunken down to the size of a grain of salt and put into someone's meal to make him go *SPLAT* when the
Shrink item spell wears off.
[/quote]
Honestly you should know by now that Rich uses and makes fun of all the various things in DnD. This includes munchkins and munchkining. Besides V seems like the one most likely to munchkin things up.
Just my input, I see Varsuvius becoming the new "main villain" replacing Xykon, a sort of phase 2 of the comic.
Quote from: NomadicI agree with that but it also transmuted him into a potentially awesome BBEG. I mean Xykon is cool and all but he is so absent minded that it gets annoying sometimes. V is someone who could become a villain that truly knows what they're doing. On a side note that saying also happens to be an English one :P
But Xykon is a "funny antagonist". Think about it - is OotS supposed to be a light-hearted or a grim comic? A determined and focused (in addition to "highly capable") antagonist would drag down the whole comic, especially when using "clever" plans (and not "sort of clever but really completely stupid and even more funny" plans) like V has been shown to do in the past.
Quote from: NomadicI don't think Hinjo could do anything until/unless V gave up the power. If V did give up the power the only thing I think Hinjo could do would be to banish V. I suppose he could try to sentence him to something more serious but so far all V has done is kill a bunch of evil dragons.
Like enforce a
Greater Mark of Justice on him like with Belkar? Or put him on trial? Remember, we're talking about paladins so a "good deed" done for "evil reasons" with "horribly evil means" would probably still count as "evil". And the blue guys (tm) haven't been shown to take compromises easily regarding that issue (see also Belkar's treatment).
Quote from: NomadicIndeed the possibilities are endless and most of them lead to V becoming the comic's true BBEG. Time will tell I suppose.
I think V has already crossed the line of what I would allow as a PC in a neutral and morally ambiguous campaign. If V isn't brought to his senses rather quickly (preferrably by getting killed and having to face the judgement of the elven gods before being resurrected) I can't possibly see any chances of him staying a protagonist.
Quote from: NomadicHonestly you should know by now that Rich uses and makes fun of all the various things in DnD. This includes munchkins and munchkining. Besides V seems like the one most likely to munchkin things up.
I may be overreacting, but I've been on the receiving end of such players already several times in my DM career. :P
Quote from: LlumJust my input, I see Varsuvius becoming the new "main villain" replacing Xykon, a sort of phase 2 of the comic.
Hmmm... never actually thought of that. Thou I can't possibly come up with a reason why this would be for the better of the comic (see my points above for the reasons).
I see V becoming a secondary antagonist... like the Linear Guild or Miko or Kubota or the thieves' guild folks or...
you get the idea. Being a villain and being a BBEG aren't necessarily the same.
I also see manipulation by the three fiends. Didn't Sabine report to those guys? The three fiends can (attempt to) use V to take out their main competition, and just got themselves an army of black dragons (you think they didn't know what was on their casters' spell lists? or that V would use familicide?).
Also, you think they'll rent out V's soul the way they did the three mages and gain new pawns that way? Hell, you could keep something like this going for a while that way. Even if you only get the souls of "clients" temporarily, it would be a great way to manipulate events on the material plane. And if there's no blood war, why do you need the souls rotting in hell anyway?
Quote from: Elemental ElfDo you believe the bargain was justified but his actions following were not?
But Xykon is a "funny antagonist". Think about it - is OotS supposed to be a light-hearted or a grim comic? A determined and focused (in addition to "highly capable") antagonist would drag down the whole comic, especially when using "clever" plans (and not "sort of clever but really completely stupid and even more funny" plans) like V has been shown to do in the past.[/quote]
Yeah, I think I agree here--evil soul-splice V as a permanent new villian would be a bit more grim than I expect with OotS. As a temporary one though, maybe--I can forsee him making a few more horrible decisions before that soul splice finally gives up, and the rest of the order might have to deal with that.
Quote from: Ra-TielLike enforce a Greater Mark of Justice on him like with Belkar? Or put him on trial? Remember, we're talking about paladins so a "good deed" done for "evil reasons" with "horribly evil means" would probably still count as "evil". And the blue guys (tm) haven't been shown to take compromises easily regarding that issue (see also Belkar's treatment).
But is it
that evil of an act? All V did was rid the world of some Black Dragons, which last time I checked were Always chaotic evil. I don't think the Pallys would punish V to the extent that he would otherwise be simply because V killed evil monsters. Don't get me wrong I think there is still a punishment to come but not from the Pallys... More like V's horrified family, V's equally horrified friends and 57+ Dragons sitting in hell waiting to get their revenge.
I think the chances of V becoming a villain are rather small. The splice will end, and he'll either confront his guilt or the judgment of somebody else. This is still a story about heroes, just heroes with occasional (okay, frequent) bad judgment calls.
I don't know... V's character has shifted considerably just leading up to this. Let's not forget how he got stranded on his little island... he abandoned his party after murdering Kubota in cold blood.
I don't know if the splice is permanent... I've got a hunch it ends with a dead V.
QuoteBut is it that evil of an act? All V did was rid the world of some Black Dragons, which last time I checked were Always chaotic evil.
someones entire family[/i] is "Always chaotic evil", no matter who the hell you use it on. Seriously, it probably has the [chaotic, evil] descriptors and everything.
Quote from: brainfaceQuoteBut is it that evil of an act? All V did was rid the world of some Black Dragons, which last time I checked were Always chaotic evil.
someones entire family[/i] is "Always chaotic evil", no matter who the hell you use it on. Seriously, it probably has the [chaotic, evil] descriptors and everything.
Probably true... but even still, its not like those Black Dragons were the blameless orphans left in the wake of Sauron's march across the lands of Middle Earth...
I'm not trying to say it was a Good act, far from it; I am, however, trying to put it in context - Black Dragons are Chaotic Evil monsters - if V didn't kill them, they would have raped, pillaged and done other dragon-y things for eons to come. Better dead than let their collective reign of terror continue. Of course the easy way to counter this argument is to cite the eggs, the Draco-taur and the Half-Dragon and say that they may not have been C/E and, most especially, the Half-Dragon could have been a L/G Paladin protecting orphans! Thankfully, we'll never know.
Valid question: how long do you think V is going to stay evil? Do you think it's going to be like the time Elan was lute-less? Or more like the time Haley was mute? If we're lucky, it might last as long as that time Belkar literally had Xycon in the palm of his hands... This is OotS, here. The stories have dipped at times, but does that necessarily mean things are going to stay the way they are? I don't see this as any "new direction", just a little plot turn.
Quote from: Halfling FritosValid question: how long do you think V is going to stay evil? Do you think it's going to be like the time Elan was lute-less? Or more like the time Haley was mute? If we're lucky, it might last as long as that time Belkar literally had Xycon in the palm of his hands... This is OotS, here. The stories have dipped at times, but does that necessarily mean things are going to stay the way they are? I don't see this as any "new direction", just a little plot turn.
I don't believe the powers in-and-of-themselves are the issue. They're a finite ability that will soon depart. Where I think the comic will shift is that V has gone from 'obsessive eccentric with a chip on his shoulder' to 'mass murder outcast.' I think we'll see years of V wandering about trying to repent for what he did, yet never finding solace because, in the back of his mind, V knows at any time the Fiends may pop in and borrow his soul for another's dastardly deed.
Quote from: Halfling FritosIf we're lucky, it might last as long as that time Belkar literally had Xycon in the palm of his hands...
Wait who is this Xycon and when was he in Belkar's hands?
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.htmlcomic 450[/url].
Well, I have to say that I can't put much stock into a lot of this speculation. I see it as V sharing four consciouses. Sure, the fiends said that he could exert his willpower over them, but they are still there influencing him. I don't blame V himself for this marginally evil act, just his inability to fight against those within him.
In other words, I don't think V will become a villain.
I do foresee V becoming scared of himself, as Elemental_Elf alluded to, always afraid of when he might have to pay back his debt. That could be scary!
On the other hand, I really do love the idea of all of those dead black dragons being used somehow. Oooo, that'd be grand.
Or, what if this act captures the attention of Xycon, who contacts V and completely forgets that V was the enemy? Then V could pull this whole secret agent thing while "serving" Xycon. Then again, that doesn't quite seem like Rich's style.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfProbably true... but even still, its not like those Black Dragons were the blameless orphans left in the wake of Sauron's march across the lands of Middle Earth...
I'm not trying to say it was a Good act, far from it; I am, however, trying to put it in context - Black Dragons are Chaotic Evil monsters - if V didn't kill them, they would have raped, pillaged and done other dragon-y things for eons to come. Better dead than let their collective reign of terror continue. Of course the easy way to counter this argument is to cite the eggs, the Draco-taur and the Half-Dragon and say that they may not have been C/E and, most especially, the Half-Dragon could have been a L/G Paladin protecting orphans! Thankfully, we'll never know.
Man, genocide is genocide. I'd call it chaotic evil no matter who or what the victim was. Those dragons weren't killed for their alignments (a dubious concept to begin with) or their actions. They were killed for that unforgivable crime of being born black dragons (*gasp* how could they?!).
It's not the kind of thing I'm accustomed to justifying with the alignment system in my D&D games.
Quote from: beejazzQuote from: Elemental_ElfProbably true... but even still, its not like those Black Dragons were the blameless orphans left in the wake of Sauron's march across the lands of Middle Earth...
I'm not trying to say it was a Good act, far from it; I am, however, trying to put it in context - Black Dragons are Chaotic Evil monsters - if V didn't kill them, they would have raped, pillaged and done other dragon-y things for eons to come. Better dead than let their collective reign of terror continue. Of course the easy way to counter this argument is to cite the eggs, the Draco-taur and the Half-Dragon and say that they may not have been C/E and, most especially, the Half-Dragon could have been a L/G Paladin protecting orphans! Thankfully, we'll never know.
Man, genocide is genocide. I'd call it chaotic evil no matter who or what the victim was. Those dragons weren't killed for their alignments (a dubious concept to begin with) or their actions. They were killed for that unforgivable crime of being born black dragons (*gasp* how could they?!).
It's not the kind of thing I'm accustomed to justifying with the alignment system in my D&D games.
I wouldn't call it genocide. Nothing there lead me to believe all Black Dragons were killed, just the ones related to this particular Black Dragon. Put this in context, if V killed 57+ Goblins with the same spell would you really feel as morally outraged? If you're not as outraged with that, then you value the life of one sentient race more than another.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.htmlcomic 450[/url].
But that was a Xykon decoy. I see people talking about this Xycon guy but I can never figure out who he is :P
Quote from: Elemental_ElfI wouldn't call it genocide. Nothing there lead me to believe all Black Dragons were killed, just the ones related to this particular Black Dragon. Put this in context, if V killed 57+ Goblins with the same spell would you really feel as morally outraged? If you're not as outraged with that, then you value the life of one sentient race more than another.
I think this is an important thing to remember. How many of you guys have ever played in a campaign where you had to wipe out a goblin lair, and didn't even blink an eye? In my campaign, there are parts of the world that consider that "genocide," and there are parts of the world that consider that "cleaning up." However, even in OotS, the comic started with them plundering Xykon's fortress and killing dozens/scores of goblins, and no one has ever called the group genocidal before.
I am contributing to an earlier conversation about munchkins. I like munchkins. They demonstrate resourcefulness and adaptation. Although I will admit that being on the recieving end is annoying.
I have found a way to beat the munchkin. If they kill the bbeg dragon by blowing up it's stomach, then the DM changes plans and makes a more powerful dragon the bbeg, with the first one actually being the second in-command or some such. Then have the new dragon hear of it's henchman's demise and take steps to prevent such a thing from happening to it.
Alternatively... turn it into a vengeful dracolich.
@Ishy: But these enemies were killed in combat and had a "chance" to fight back/flee. Those goblins weren't killed from the other side of the planet. And that's the difference here. Just imagine how big the outrage would be if Xykon did the same with e.g. Daigo's family. Or Hinjo's family. Would the forums in that case all be "awesome!" and "cool!", too?
"Evil is as Evil does" - and the massmurderer V committed was evil. Even moreso since it was purely committed out of hate/revenge.
I know that real-life examples are always problematic, but do you really think that some guy who just shot some 50 Americans would be celebrated as a hero even if he told the police "these were all terrorists and I defended America against a terrorist attack"?
@Nomadic: or let it return as a ghost dragon, preferably a solo brute or some such.
Four times the hitpoints + takes half damage from all attacks = Eight times the fun for the DM. :D
Quote from: Ra-TielFour times the hitpoints + takes half damage from all attacks = Eight times the fun for the DM. :D
Me likey. alternitavly (in a goofy campaign) make it come back with a +10
amulet of munchkin/minmaxer/annoying payerbane
Quote from: Elemental ElfPut this in context, if V killed 57+ Goblins with the same spell would you really feel as morally outraged? If you're not as outraged with that, then you value the life of one sentient race more than another.
actually[/i] value goblin life at all! ha!). Second off, yeah, familiciding goblins would be pretty brutal too; especially as I'm sure the author would take care to show goblins doing normal everyday things like eating supper and chopping down trees (as well as fighting heroic adventurers) before being suddenly killed out of the blue.
Quote from: Elemental ElfI wouldn't call it genocide.
Well, er, yeah, it's Familicide. :) That's like, one step down from genocide, which is kinda damning with faint praise to say the least. (Hopefully it's a neologism and not an actual real life crime and all.)
Quote from: Ra-TielI know that real-life examples are always problematic, but do you really think that some guy who just shot some 50 Americans would be celebrated as a hero even if he told the police "these were all terrorists and I defended America against a terrorist attack"?
If they actually turned out to be proven terrorists then yes, yes he would probably be hailed as hero.
I think the example might be stronger if the 50 random americans were "Likely terrorists" or had a "strong inclination towards terrorism" or "Looked suspicious". If the 50 had like, just literally blown up a bridge in front of witnesses then yeah we'd just start calling him rambo.
I'd try to "fix" the example, but frankly that's Ra-Tiel's job, and I don't really feel like bringing in a real life example of my own; if for no other reason than V's actions/justifications, if applied to a real-life people/event, instantly become god-awful and I don't want to argue the merits of them. :P
I linked to this thread on the webcomics (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Web-Comics) wiki as the official OotS discussion thread.
Quote from: brainfaceQuote from: Elemental ElfDo you believe the bargain was justified but his actions following were not?
Well, what's left to say? V has been the target of the "transmute hero to a**hole" spell. I don't know how's that saying is going in English, but there's a German one "Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely" and V is a very prominent example of that.
Acton[/url]) in reference to the Catholic Church.
@Nomadic: well, perhaps this guy would be called a hero... before being put on the death row. Massmurderer stays massmurderer not matter your motivation. And we've been shown again and again that even the OotS doesn't have all-encompassing executive rights all over the world.
@brainface: no, I think my example is just right. That imaginary guy who shot 50 other guys because he claimed they were terrorists and threatening his nation is just the same as V killing off 50 dragons claiming they were evil and would threaten his family.
If I weren't too lazy, I would search for the strips showing Miko getting the stick from our favorite ingame lawyer (no, not the sylph :P). ;)
Quote from: Ra-TielI know that real-life examples are always problematic, but do you really think that some guy who just shot some 50 Americans would be celebrated as a hero even if he told the police "these were all terrorists and I defended America against a terrorist attack"?
I think real life examples, especially in the case of elven wizards being possessed by the souls of past evil magic-users are kind of ineffectual and might bring unnecessary drama to the conversation. Especially when we bring in "suspected terrorists" and vigilante justice. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather not see this conversation go down that road.
On the matter of V's recent actions, I think everyone here (brooooad generalization) is taking it a bit too seriously. Based on the OotS I've read, which is all of them, I think V will have to do penance but the story will continue on with V recognizing the dangers of his big ol' ego. Sure, the alignment change might have some repercussions, but so it goes. Also, where someone mentioned V becoming a villain, no. Just because I don't believe Rich would break a cast that has been through everything together form the very beginning. And V single-handedly destroying Xykon? Deus ex machina much? Honestly, I expect the splice to expire in the next two or three strips.
Okay, my opinions are voiced. Carry on.
Quote from: brainfaceWell, first off, there's only 1 real known non-imaginary sentient race, which kinda complicates things (technically I don't actually value goblin life at all! ha!). Second off, yeah, familiciding goblins would be pretty brutal too; especially as I'm sure the author would take care to show goblins doing normal everyday things like eating supper and chopping down trees (as well as fighting heroic adventurers) before being suddenly killed out of the blue.
I don't know what it is but seeing 57 Dragons die amounts to a 'DANG! That was AWESOME!' There's no other way to describe it. Fro all D&D's high minded attitude towards Dragons, they're still just monsters. Granted they're long-lived, powerful monsters but monsters none the less. its the same with Goblins. A Goblin monster is just another goblin monster. Even if the Dragons were doing more 'human' things they would still be monsters... just monsters playing House. Do that with the Goblins and it would definitely humanize the monster ,to the point where the act of slaughtering them would be too unsettling.
Quote from: PhoenixI linked to this thread on the webcomics (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Web-Comics) wiki as the official OotS discussion thread.
Thanks! :band:
OOTS has always taken the very odd position of trying to challenge the alignment system as presented while also remaining firmly committed to that system. It doesn't really work very well and any attempt to reconcile real world morality with OOTS's peculiar universe is automatically doomed to incoherence. I'm not trying to be down on the comic here - I read it, and enjoy it - but there's nothing at all here that's applicable to morality as it actually exists.
As for V's future role in the comic, I have no idea - Rich is pretty good at throwing the readers for a loop with unexpected stuff - but I'd like to think I did see something like this coming. There's only so long you can go on with the amoral, power-seeking magic user before the temptation to cross the line become inevitable. Granted, I didn't think it would be that extreme...
Quote from: Elemental_Elf[...] Do that with the Goblins and it would definitely humanize the monster ,to the point where the act of slaughtering them would be too unsettling.
I think I just pulled that off in today's 4E session.
Long story short, the PCs were asked by a hobgoblin chieftain to guide his tribe around Fallcrest (which has been besieged and repeatedly attacked by a lykanthrope army, just like Hammerfast has). The hobgoblins were fleeing from another army, perhaps an even greater threat - the armies of New Arkhosia, a realm lead by dragons and their allies bent on freeing the world from evil by eradicating any and all that would commit evil. The PCs agreed and lead a "trail of tears" consisting of around 1500 hobgoblin women, children, and elderly past Fallcrest and Winterhaven, into the wild north where the goblinoids hope to find peace. Every male and female capable and willing of wielding a weapon stayed back, sacrificing their lives in hope to buy the rest of their people enough time to escape to safety.
All in all, my players were very quiet today, especially during the last quarter of the evening. When I described how the females and children would cry as they left their husbands and brothers and sons and fathers behind in their escape, and how they would flee from their homelands driven by a merciless and unrelenting foe into an unknown wilderness, they even looked sort of shocked. I think they remembered very well how their first (combat) encounters with the goblinoids went and how much "fun" they had when they killed off goblin troops or hobgoblin archers before they knew of the tribe's situation.
Quote from: Ra-TielI think I just pulled that off in today's 4E session.
Long story short, the PCs were asked by a hobgoblin chieftain to guide his tribe around Fallcrest (which has been besieged and repeatedly attacked by a lykanthrope army, just like Hammerfast has). The hobgoblins were fleeing from another army, perhaps an even greater threat - the armies of New Arkhosia, a realm lead by dragons and their allies bent on freeing the world from evil by eradicating any and all that would commit evil. The PCs agreed and lead a "trail of tears" consisting of around 1500 hobgoblin women, children, and elderly past Fallcrest and Winterhaven, into the wild north where the goblinoids hope to find peace. Every male and female capable and willing of wielding a weapon stayed back, sacrificing their lives in hope to buy the rest of their people enough time to escape to safety.
All in all, my players were very quiet today, especially during the last quarter of the evening. When I described how the females and children would cry as they left their husbands and brothers and sons and fathers behind in their escape, and how they would flee from their homelands driven by a merciless and unrelenting foe into an unknown wilderness, they even looked sort of shocked. I think they remembered very well how their first (combat) encounters with the goblinoids went and how much "fun" they had when they killed off goblin troops or hobgoblin archers before they knew of the tribe's situation.
God, I wish I could pull something like
that off in my campaigns... But my players are all too content to slaughter and loot the hordes, make bestiality jokes and complain that I don't give out enough treasure... :-/
Quote from: CritQuote from: Ra-TielI know that real-life examples are always problematic, but do you really think that some guy who just shot some 50 Americans would be celebrated as a hero even if he told the police "these were all terrorists and I defended America against a terrorist attack"?
I agree completely. This whole thing is going to blow over pretty quickly.
I forget, how often is oots updateded?
Oots just updated with #640. The twist was hilarious. This post is purposefully vague so that someone who missed the update won't get an unwanted spoiler.
Again, further evidence that this will all blow mover and just result in a guilt complex for V.
No reason not to give spoilers off since the whole point of this thread is to collect spoilers and ideas.
On that note I think the latest comic has pretty much pointed to V as the next big bad.
Dear god a 1/4!? Yeah this comic has definitely shifted V to the evil side... V is a bad guy
Quote from: The Rose Of MontagueAgain, further evidence that this will all blow mover and just result in a guilt complex for V.
i think we all know V will have quite a bit of guilt over his latest actions... I mean he's murdered 57+ Dragons through his own actions, and 7+ Azure City soldiers through his inaction... Yeah he'll be wracked with that grief for years to come.
The reaction is what was to be expected. Now I'm really wondering about the next strip.
Hehe, I think we all guessed the Necromancer would be the first to leave... Sad as that may be, it does knock V's power back down to the realm of reasonable (hopefully).
If you backtrack to the oracle part this whole "V just became sub god" is foreshadowed.
Yeah, the Oracle's response to his "When will I gain ultimate power?" (or whatever he asked) was "By saying the right four words at the right time for the wrong reason."
And then, about 10 comics ago, the title of the comic was "The Wrong Reason," and V's four words to take on the power were "I... I must succeed." (or something like that). Good planning on Giant's part
Finally V admitted himself that it wasn't to save his family. But I guess we all knew that already.
Well for V it's an issue of never enough. The goals are good but the means to achieving the goals aren't so good. And well, there's so much V could do with this power that they are going to use it for something and then realize that they can use it for just one more thing and so on and so forth. I foresee V doing this a bunch and becoming alienated by everyone they know. That could very well lead to serious BBEVness.
Annnd now he's going to "fix everything"
(this will end in tears. Actually it's already at that state, but, you know.)
Quote from: brainfaceAnnnd now he's going to "fix everything"
Reminds me of a saying...
"XML is like violence - if it doesn't solve your problems you didn't use enough of it."Quote from: brainface(this will end in tears. Actually it's already at that state, but, you know.)
Definitively.
Quote"XML is like violence - if it doesn't solve your problems you didn't use enough of it."
Oh god, just, oh god. :O
Quote from: Ra-TielReminds me of a saying...
"XML is like violence - if it doesn't solve your problems you didn't use enough of it."
That's pretty fantastic.
I hope V can get the band back together! ... Of course they'll ostracize V for the deal he made... Still it will be nice to have the party back together.
Hmm, I wonder what V will do after he's all alone...
Quote from: Elemental_ElfI hope V can get the band back together! ... Of course they'll ostracize V for the deal he made... Still it will be nice to have the party back together.
Hmm, I wonder what V will do after he's all alone...
I forsee this ending in V's death...
after they bring back Roy, that is.
Speaking of which, it's been a while since we got to see Roy... splitting up the party means months of not seeing some pretty central characters it seems like. What was the last we saw of Xykon?
Quote from: IshmaylYeah, the Oracle's response to his "When will I gain ultimate power?" (or whatever he asked) was "By saying the right four words at the right time for the wrong reason."
Looking back at that comic (331)...
Durkon will return to the Dwarven lands posthumously. (Hasn't Occurred)
The story will end well for
Elan. (Hasn't Occurred)
Hailey is not supposed to look a gift horse in the mouth. (Perhaps... Has occurred with her re-joining the Thieves Guild).
Xykon will go to Girard's Gate before Kraagar's Gate. (Hasn't Occurred Yet)
Belkar will kill Miko, Miko's Horse, Roy, V or the Oracle. (Has been fulfilled when Belkar killed the Oracle).
V's prophesy has come true... Possibly. The exact quote is "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." The right BEING! Last I checked there were THREE Fiends, not one. Now this could mean that either the author changed the plot line (by a small amount) or this was not how V attains 'Ultimate Arcane Power.'
Maybe V really is going to try to fix everything. Maybe he thinks that simply letting go of the soul splice doesn't minimize damage enough. Who knows? Maybe V is even going to try using the new powers to challenge the fiends to prevent him from having to keep up his end of the deal.
V became drunk with power and the perceived lack of responsibility. He lost part of that power, and he might have realized that he still does have the responsibility. i don't think it's entirely unreasonable to think that an adventurer might attempt atonement through sheer force. The fact that it's that very force that's being atoned for puts an ironic spin on it, but I don't think V would see that. At least, he wouldn't see that as ironic in any seriously negative way.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfV's prophesy has come true... Possibly. The exact quote is "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." The right BEING! Last I checked there were THREE Fiends, not one. Now this could mean that either the author changed the plot line (by a small amount) or this was not how V attains 'Ultimate Arcane Power.'
It might have meant the imp instead of the fiends.
Quote from: Loch BelthaddQuote from: Elemental_ElfV's prophesy has come true... Possibly. The exact quote is "By saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons." The right BEING! Last I checked there were THREE Fiends, not one. Now this could mean that either the author changed the plot line (by a small amount) or this was not how V attains 'Ultimate Arcane Power.'
It might have meant the imp instead of the fiends.
I didn't see any spot where V said only 4 words to the Imp... But good try :)
A Wizard Did It - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html - is now up!
Hard to say that Vs actions in this one were bad. Of course, he pretty clearly said that the main reason he came here was to show off to Durkan and Elan. That's kinda sad.
I smirked when I saw the title of today's strip. Then I laughed out loud when I finished the panel where they say "She's in Greysky City". The I roflcoptered when I hit the last panel. So much for omnipotence.
Oh, and budget cuts? Hilarity.
Quote from: The Rose Of MontagueI smirked when I saw the title of today's strip. Then I laughed out loud when I finished the panel where they say "She's in Greysky City". The I roflcoptered when I hit the last panel. So much for omnipotence.
Oh, and budget cuts? Hilarity.
yes.
Also V isn't completely evil, just impatient.
Quote from: Loch Belthadd[...] Also V isn't completely evil, just impatient.
No. V's an idiot. Idiot as in "Int 20, Wis -10". Even Legolas would be a better elven wizard than V could ever be.
I'm severly disappointed by V, honestly. V's insatiably hunger for power, his intolerance of his former "friends" and comrades, his willingness to do whatever is necessary to achieve his goals (aka "the ends justify the means") is what I would have expected of a human but not of a long-lived and supposedly wise elf.
How far V's fallen clearly shows in the way he had treated his mate. Imho V deserved a bullet to the brain, but that would be a waste of a perfectly innocent bullet. :-/
V isn't an idiot they are just doing what anakin skywa... ok yea... V's an idiot.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html
A fitting tribute comic to an unsung hero.
Quote from: Elemental_Elfhttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html
A fitting tribute comic to an unsung hero.
yes... :(
New OOTS! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html)
Every OOTS with Belkar in it just reaffirms my belief in the awesomeness of Belkar.
Belkar is indeed awesome, especially now that he's pretending to care.
Welcome to the deep end! It's where the cool kids swim. :cool:
Quote from: Loch BelthaddWelcome to the deep end! It's where the cool kids swim. :cool:
Pffft. We all know L/G is where the true heroes swim!
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Loch BelthaddWelcome to the deep end! It's where the cool kids swim. :cool:
Pffft. We all know L/G is where the true heroes swim!
How does one swim with a huge stick up their rear orifice?
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Loch BelthaddWelcome to the deep end! It's where the cool kids swim. :cool:
Pffft. We all know L/G is where the true heroes swim!
How does one swim with a huge stick up their rear orifice?
It's called a rudder, duh! :P
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Loch BelthaddWelcome to the deep end! It's where the cool kids swim. :cool:
Pffft. We all know L/G is where the true heroes swim!
How does one swim with a huge stick up their rear orifice?
It's called a rudder, duh! :P
:wtf:
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Loch BelthaddWelcome to the deep end! It's where the cool kids swim. :cool:
Pffft. We all know L/G is where the true heroes swim!
How does one swim with a huge stick up their rear orifice?
It's called a rudder, duh! :P
win.
New OOTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0646.html)
V now has the most powerful arcane abilities in the world...
but they're always trumped by circumstance. How's that for selling your soul?
Quote from: Rorschach FritosV now has the most powerful arcane abilities in the world...
but they're always trumped by circumstance. How's that for selling your soul?
Honestly? It sounds about right. No deal with the devil (or in this case, devils) is every fully to your satisfaction.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Rorschach FritosV now has the most powerful arcane abilities in the world...
but they're always trumped by circumstance. How's that for selling your soul?
Honestly? It sounds about right. No deal with the devil (or in this case, devils) is every fully to your satisfaction.
Agreed. Poetic.
New OOTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)!
Reunions are so fun!
Elan is actually competent?! UP IS DOWN LEFT IS YELLOW!
Quote from: NomadicElan is actually competent?! UP IS DOWN LEFT IS YELLOW!
So... Elan and V have switch places in the party! LEFT IS YELLOW INDEED!!!
New OOTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)
I'd just like to note that in light of comic 643 and comic 647, V made the correct choice in selling his soul. The Fiends lied to V about Durkon being with the Azurite fleet because as evidenced in the 2 aforementioned comics, Durkon had already been gone for days.
If V had used their plan, the outcome would have ended with V dead and his family gone for ever. No matter what V did afterwards, he made the correct choice.
OOTS 650 is up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html)
I see things ending very poorly with V.
Quote from: IshmaylI see things ending very poorly with V.
I think Poorly is a gross understatement. If team Evil is in any way prepared (and they likely are, seeing as how Xykon has a Teevo) then V is utterly screwed. V could probably take Xykon down after an exhausting arcane duel but we can't forget that Redcloak, Monster-San and Tsukiko are most likely present.
(http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4873/belkargg4.png)
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: IshmaylI see things ending very poorly with V.
I think Poorly is a gross understatement. If team Evil is in any way prepared (and they likely are, seeing as how Xykon has a Teevo) then V is utterly screwed. V could probably take Xykon down after an exhausting arcane duel but we can't forget that Redcloak, Monster-San and Tsukiko are most likely present.
V is still bound to 2 of the most powerful casters in existance. Xykon has been classed somewhere between level 21 and level 24 while redcloak is around 15 to 16 and tsukiko is low enough to not even rank a blip on an epic characters radar. As long as the bind holds V could very easily mop the floor with xykon, redclock, and the rest of their entire army.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: IshmaylI see things ending very poorly with V.
I think Poorly is a gross understatement. If team Evil is in any way prepared (and they likely are, seeing as how Xykon has a Teevo) then V is utterly screwed. V could probably take Xykon down after an exhausting arcane duel but we can't forget that Redcloak, Monster-San and Tsukiko are most likely present.
V is still bound to 2 of the most powerful casters in existance. Xykon has been classed somewhere between level 21 and level 24 while redcloak is around 15 to 16 and tsukiko is low enough to not even rank a blip on an epic characters radar. As long as the bind holds V could very easily mop the floor with xykon, redclock, and the rest of their entire army.
No one said the other two spellcasters are that powerful, they are only the most powerful the 3 fiends have possession of (and they're a new operation). The most powerful of those 3 has already left. Now granted the other two are obviously epic level but probably in the low 20's. V himself is only 13-15th level.
If Team Evil has time to prepare, then they could wipe the floor with V. Remember, V has already expended many of his epic spells (all those Epic Teleportations and such) and epic levels provide no new spells per day. I'm not saying it would be easy but I think Team Evil could do it.
Also, let us not forget a Recurrent theme is that even with all the power in the world, happenstance and chance continue to make a mockery of V's new power. His own hubris will be his undoing.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: IshmaylI see things ending very poorly with V.
I think Poorly is a gross understatement. If team Evil is in any way prepared (and they likely are, seeing as how Xykon has a Teevo) then V is utterly screwed. V could probably take Xykon down after an exhausting arcane duel but we can't forget that Redcloak, Monster-San and Tsukiko are most likely present.
V is still bound to 2 of the most powerful casters in existance. Xykon has been classed somewhere between level 21 and level 24 while redcloak is around 15 to 16 and tsukiko is low enough to not even rank a blip on an epic characters radar. As long as the bind holds V could very easily mop the floor with xykon, redclock, and the rest of their entire army.
No one said the other two spellcasters are that powerful, they are only the most powerful the 3 fiends have possession of (and they're a new operation). The most powerful of those 3 has already left. Now granted the other two are obviously epic level but probably in the low 20's. V himself is only 13-15th level.
If Team Evil has time to prepare, then they could wipe the floor with V. Remember, V has already expended many of his epic spells (all those Epic Teleportations and such) and epic levels provide no new spells per day. I'm not saying it would be easy but I think Team Evil could do it.
Also, let us not forget a Recurrent theme is that even with all the power in the world, happenstance and chance continue to make a mockery of V's new power. His own hubris will be his undoing.
While the your statement regarding the theme is quite valid, I beg to differ on your other claims.
[spoiler=Important Quotes]
QuoteOrange Fiend: As a special limited-time offer, we propose for all three of us to splice your soul at the same time.
Purple Fiend: Binding the three most powerful evil mages whose soul we command to your own.
Yellow Fiend: Their epic spells should compliment your own spellcasting deficits most superbly.
Purple Fiend: The amount of raw energy from your four combined souls would dwarf that wielded by any mortal arcane spellcaster who has ever lived.
[/quote]
Purple Fiend: And third, you won't get any XP from anything you defeat while you're spliced.
Yellow Fiend: Well, you could, technically, but your effective level would be so high that it's pretty unlikely.
[/quote]
Sure you COULD argue that the orange guy was super-uber and the other two are just weak little level 20s but that seems a bit of a stretch. It is far more likely that while the orange may be the strongest, the other two aren't far behind him. As to the spell slots, V may have used a fair few but he has 3 chunks to use instead of the normal 1. Additionally, as has been shown, xykon isn't bright enough to prepare much and refuses to listen much to the only one who does (redcloak). The MitD is an unknown, but he's pretty much a melee beast with a WIS score comparable to Belkar's. V wouldn't have to directly fight him, and even if V was somehow only level 21 he would still be high enough that xykon would be the only threat with all the others could do being buff/heal him (and hope V doesn't spend a turn wiping them all out). So the fight is pretty much an unprepared, just past epic, Xykon, vs a fully ready high epic V (again even if those casters are only just past epic... 2 low epics and a level 15 would very easily waste Xykon).
Quote from: NomadicWhile the your statement regarding the theme is quite valid, I beg to differ on your other claims.
[spoiler=Important Quotes]
QuoteOrange Fiend: As a special limited-time offer, we propose for all three of us to splice your soul at the same time.
Purple Fiend: Binding the three most powerful evil mages whose soul we command to your own.
Yellow Fiend: Their epic spells should compliment your own spellcasting deficits most superbly.
Emphasis mine.
Let's not forget that Xykon took Dorukan down with ease, and he was one of the most powerful wizards in the world. There is no doubt V is powerful but a prepared force could take him down.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicWhile the your statement regarding the theme is quite valid, I beg to differ on your other claims.
[spoiler=Important Quotes]
QuoteOrange Fiend: As a special limited-time offer, we propose for all three of us to splice your soul at the same time.
Purple Fiend: Binding the three most powerful evil mages whose soul we command to your own.
Yellow Fiend: Their epic spells should compliment your own spellcasting deficits most superbly.
Emphasis mine.
Let's not forget that Xykon took Dorukan down with ease, and he was one of the most powerful wizards in the world. There is no doubt V is powerful but a prepared force could take him down.
He did not, it almost totally drained him. Also recall that Soon nearly killed both him AND redcloak and would have if not for miko.
Oh and please reread what I posted, I updated it a bit to emphasize what I am getting at.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicWhile the your statement regarding the theme is quite valid, I beg to differ on your other claims.
[spoiler=Important Quotes]
QuoteOrange Fiend: As a special limited-time offer, we propose for all three of us to splice your soul at the same time.
Purple Fiend: Binding the three most powerful evil mages whose soul we command to your own.
Yellow Fiend: Their epic spells should compliment your own spellcasting deficits most superbly.
Emphasis mine.
Let's not forget that Xykon took Dorukan down with ease, and he was one of the most powerful wizards in the world. There is no doubt V is powerful but a prepared force could take him down.
He did not, it almost totally drained him. Also recall that Soon nearly killed both him AND redcloak and would have if not for miko.
Oh and please reread what I posted, I updated it a bit to emphasize what I am getting at.
Fair enough (I was pandering a bit there) but still, Durokon was a loooong time ago. We know V has already gained like 3 levels since the strip began, so I'm sure Xykon is in the same boat. But... Yeah 2 Epics and a 15 is better than 1 epic, a 15 and city of level 1-5's. The only real problem V has is that he is limited in the number of actions he can take in a round. Even with delayed spells, there's only so many he can cast. Plus, we don't know what other spells Xykon has up his sleeve (like the cloister spell (which may shoot V off to some weird place). Further, )V is going in blind, who knows what's going on. For all we know, the castle could be rigged to blow up the moment some one teleports in, not to mention who knows what effect that would have when you factor in the snarl rift.
And don't forget, Xykon still has Monster-San sitting in the wing! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/oots/mitd.gif)
EDIT: Just added it up, V has cast 21 spells since agreeing to the fiend's deal. Most are fairly high level.
From what we have seen Xykon is pretty limited in the fiendish plans department, even his very rare good plans tend to backfire. Redcloak could pull something together but that would require Xykon's cooperation... and well... good luck with that. As an aside, while I won't get too in depth with what he could do as this is the OOTS and the character's are notoriously unwise, there is a key spell that would allow him to seriously injure bones and kill or disable all his backup in one round, timestop. One final thought here. A level 15 wizard has 10 mid-high level (5+) spell slots. A level 20 has 20. Thus when he started he had roughly 70 strong spell slots (there is likely a slight difference one way or the other since the 3 souls aren't run of the mill wizards like V). At any rate he lost one but he probably used up some of his slots on that one before he did. Even if he didn't and all his spells cast are level 5+ spells he still has 29 level 5+ slots left.
</end needless slaughter of catgirls>
At any rate we will have to wait and see what happens. Personally I am not so sure we will even have a standard wizards duel here.
Quote from: NomadicFrom what we have seen Xykon is pretty limited in the fiendish plans department, even his very rare good plans tend to backfire. Redcloak could pull something together but that would require Xykon's cooperation... and well... good luck with that. As an aside, while I won't get too in depth with what he could do as this is the OOTS and the character's are notoriously unwise, there is a key spell that would allow him to seriously injure bones and kill or disable all his backup in one round, timestop. One final thought here. A level 15 wizard has 10 mid-high level (5+) spell slots. A level 20 has 20. Thus when he started he had roughly 70 strong spell slots (there is likely a slight difference one way or the other since the 3 souls aren't run of the mill wizards like V). At any rate he lost one but he probably used up some of his slots on that one before he did. Even if he didn't and all his spells cast are level 5+ spells he still has 29 level 5+ slots left.
Yeah... Seeing as how one of the souls bound to V is a Sorcerer, we can see that V probably has a ton of spells left...
Quote from: NomadicAt any rate we will have to wait and see what happens. Personally I am not so sure we will even have a standard wizards duel here.
Considering Xykon is a Sorcerer, and Evil, and Lazy, I seriously doubt we'd see one anyways :)
Quote from: Elemental_ElfConsidering Xykon is a Sorcerer, and Evil, and Lazy, I seriously doubt we'd see one anyways :)
Though we might see a duel of words. I wonder who would win... Xykon with his penchant to annoy the hell out of his enemies, or V with his penchant to bore the hell out of his enemies.
Quote from: NomadicNot to mention the girl is likely necro specialized and thus gets +1 necro slots per spell level.
Necromancer was the one that left. V has Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes (Conjurer) and Jephton, Unholy Span of Hatred (A Sorcerer/Archmage, master of flexibility).
Quote from: NomadicThough we might see a duel of words. I wonder who would win... Xykon with his penchant to annoy the hell out of his enemies, or V with his penchant to bore the hell out of his enemies.
Ooo and epic battle of INT v. CHA!!!! I'd love to see V's boring speech about the crimes Xykon has committed and the inevitable Xykon slight where he blows off V's new found power as nothing but a temporary gain thus forcing V into a spiraling depression from whence he will have only one true choice - join Xykon and achieve true mastery of the arcane via Snarl and the Rifts.
Ah ok, I got Ganron and the Necro mixed up for some reason.
Crazy thought here but V also teleported at least 15 ships, of which there appears to be at least 2 warships. A small warship like a frigate of the appropriate era has a displacement in excess of 500 tons. Even the large cargo vessels would rate well over 200 tons. In other words V just teleported at least 2,600 tons, or 5,200,000 pounds. The standard transport seed teleports you and up to 1,000 additional pounds at a base dc of 27. For each additional 50 pounds the check goes up by 2. So then v is obviously using a specialized and extremely powerful version of teleport designed just for such things. Would make sense as the caster in question used to teleport entire armies. At any rate I just thought that was pretty amazing.
Quote from: NomadicCrazy thought here but V also teleported at least 15 ships, of which there appears to be at least 2 warships. A small warship like a frigate of the appropriate era has a displacement in excess of 500 tons. Even the large cargo vessels would rate well over 200 tons. In other words V just teleported at least 2,600 tons, or 5,200,000 pounds. The standard transport seed teleports you and up to 1,000 additional pounds at a base dc of 27. For each additional 50 pounds the check goes up by 2. So then v is obviously using a specialized and extremely powerful version of teleport designed just for such things. Would make sense as the caster in question used to teleport entire armies. At any rate I just thought that was pretty amazing.
Considering the Azurites are based off of Asia, their ships may be a whole lot bigger. I don't have the epic level handbook but the closest spell I can think of is Teleportation Circle, a 9th level Wizard spell. It allows the caster to create a 5' circle and transport anything that enters it. It's the only way V could teleport the fleet since he did not have the ability to touch all the ships (which is demanded by normal teleport spells).
So yeah... This Epic Teleport has to be crazy powerful to be able to transport a FLEET (which is far above anyone's carrying capacity) and to target that many moving objects at once.
[ic=I just made this up] Epic Teleport
level: wiz/sor epic, clr epic
components: V,S
casting time: standard action
range:unlimited
effect: any number of targets, of any size or composition, are teleported to the desired location, regardless of distance.
duration: instant
saving throw: none
spell resistance: none [/ic]
Quote from: Loch Belthadd[ic=I just made this up] Epic Teleport
level: wiz/sor epic, clr epic
components: V,S
casting time: standard action
range:unlimited
effect: any number of targets, of any size or composition, are teleported to the desired location, regardless of distance.
duration: instant
saving throw: none
spell resistance: none [/ic]
Sounds about right... x.
How would you guys stat out a plot device?
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Loch Belthadd[ic=I just made this up] Epic Teleport
level: wiz/sor epic, clr epic
components: V,S
casting time: standard action
range:unlimited
effect: any number of targets, of any size or composition, are teleported to the desired location, regardless of distance.
duration: instant
saving throw: none
spell resistance: none [/ic]
Sounds about right... x.
:|
It's not like this site went away when 4E came out...
Seed: Transport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/transport.htm)
Spellcraft DC would be through the roof to transport a fleet, though.
Quote from: limetom:|
It's not like this site went away when 4E came out...
Seed: Transport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/transport.htm)
Spellcraft DC would be through the roof to transport a fleet, though.
It can't be that spell either, since it states "Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures weighing up to 1,000 lb." V was high up in the air when he cast the spell, so he couldn't transport the whole fleet in this manner.
Hence why I said it must have been a combination of Teleportation Circle (with an ENORMOUS radius) and a massive unbelievable teleportation spell akin to the spell you linked.
Regardless, either the DC or the Caster Level has to be through the roof to cast the spell...
Changing the target of an epic spell is just a dc increase (there's a table for it hereish: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm --offhand it's like plus dc 10 or so). Changing the weight limit is an ad-hoc dc increase. I'm gonna go ahead and let someone else do that math on that.
Of course, if V was REALLY as smart as Elan, he just woulda used a non-epic spell from a third-party source. It'd probably only be level 7 or so. O:)
Quote from: brainface... if V was REALLY as smart as Elan...
Wait, what?
I doubt I'll ever be used to that...
Quote from: brainfaceChanging the target of an epic spell is just a dc increase (there's a table for it hereish: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm --offhand it's like plus dc 10 or so). Changing the weight limit is an ad-hoc dc increase. I'm gonna go ahead and let someone else do that math on that. [...]
Changing the target from
touch to
target is a +4 increase, and from
target to
area is another +10 increase. Making the area a 20ft radius sphere is a +2 increase, with each increase by 100% adding another +4. So, to increase the radius to even 1000ft the total DC would be around 27 (base) + 4 (target) + 10 (area) + 2 (20ft) + 196 (+980ft) = 239 (final). But the range was definitively larger than 1000ft. And we didn't even look at the cast time reduction from 1 minute to standard action (which would add another +20 to the DC).
Further, the weight limit increase is not an ad-hoc modifier as it is pretty clearly laid out in the
transport seed's description (+2 for each 50lb past the default 1000lb). Therefore, the final DC of the
Epic Teleport spell would very likely be in the high hundreds, if not even in the thousands.
Quote from: Ra-TielQuote from: brainfaceChanging the target of an epic spell is just a dc increase (there's a table for it hereish: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm --offhand it's like plus dc 10 or so). Changing the weight limit is an ad-hoc dc increase. I'm gonna go ahead and let someone else do that math on that. [...]
Changing the target from touch to target is a +4 increase, and from target to area is another +10 increase. Making the area a 20ft radius sphere is a +2 increase, with each increase by 100% adding another +4. So, to increase the radius to even 1000ft the total DC would be around 27 (base) + 4 (target) + 10 (area) + 2 (20ft) + 196 (+980ft) = 239 (final). But the range was definitively larger than 1000ft. And we didn't even look at the cast time reduction from 1 minute to standard action (which would add another +20 to the DC).
Further, the weight limit increase is not an ad-hoc modifier as it is pretty clearly laid out in the transport seed's description (+2 for each 50lb past the default 1000lb). Therefore, the final DC of the Epic Teleport spell would very likely be in the high hundreds, if not even in the thousands.
Thank you for doing the math :)
Wow, a DC in the thousands... That's... Massive.
I think our best bet is to say 'since the Necromancer had a game breaking spell (famlicide) we can assume the other two splices also have (at least 1) game breaking spell.' It's likely the Conjurer's is this Epic Teleport. How else would he be well known for the ability to teleport whole armies?
Like, Oh mi gohd this is AWESOME! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)
Quote from: Elemental_ElfI'd just like to note that in light of comic 643 and comic 647, V made the correct choice in selling his soul. The Fiends lied to V about Durkon being with the Azurite fleet because as evidenced in the 2 aforementioned comics, Durkon had already been gone for days.
If V had used their plan, the outcome would have ended with V dead and his family gone for ever. No matter what V did afterwards, he made the correct choice.
Just to emphasize my point (because I had the time) here's a more in depth argument:
I'm fairly sure we can say the Fiend's 'plan' is anything except truthful. Only 19 minutes have passed since V acquired his powers. The Spell Durkon and Elan used to get to Greysky City is called 'Wind Walk' which allows for a maximum movement speed of 600 feet per round, or 60 miles per hour. We can safely assume Greysky City (being in the Northern lands) was more than 20 miles away from the Fleet (i.e. more than the maximum amount of area that can be covered in 19 minutes (hell, V probably spent a good amount of time IN Greysky City, so the area covered would be even less).
Further, we can cite comic 643, second page, 5th panel. Daigo specifically says "We haven't seen [Durkon & Elan] in days."
Thus we can safely presume the Fiends were lieing.
New OOTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)
Heh like I said, redcloak is the brains and xykon is the muscle. Bones would already be dead if he hadn't listened to his green eared sidekick. RC should count his lucky stars that he did listen for a change.
Currently looks like a standard duel to me but again that final panel makes me think things aren't going to end in standard duel style.
My goodness I am getting anxious to see the conclusion to the V epic power arc. It's really quite awesome.
Quote from: NomadicHeh like I said, redcloak is the brains and xykon is the muscle. Bones would already be dead if he hadn't listened to his green eared sidekick. RC should count his lucky stars that he did listen for a change.
Currently looks like a standard duel to me but again that final panel makes me think things aren't going to end in standard duel style.
My goodness I am getting anxious to see the conclusion to the V epic power arc. It's really quite awesome.
V is screwed. He's lost his epic spellcasting. V has two options - get the hell out of dodge or spam disintegrate until Xykon turns to dust.
Of course, I find it odd how powerful Xykon is. Maybe this is just his game face but I suspect a devious hand (or 3)in his knowledge of the Soul Splice and his sudden power increase.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfOf course, I find it odd how powerful Xykon is. Maybe this is just his game face but I suspect a devious hand (or 3)in his knowledge of the Soul Splice and his sudden power increase.
I don't think we've ever seen his game face, and I don't think this is it, either. I think he simply knows, from experience, that the whole power gain thing doesn't have to end, so the souls willingly let it end. At least in his eyes, that makes them chumps next to him. Add that they're already weak, and this really isn't much of a power increase, just something V (and the readers, presumably) didn't think about.
Somehow I get the feeling that yet another "partymember needs resurrection" plot is comming up. ^^
But what really surprised me:
[spoiler]Xykon wasn't even scorched by the empowered sunburst. No marks or bruises of any sort, which I find a bit confusing considering the spell dealt at least 17d6*1.5 (or ~89 on average) points of damage to the lich (Ref save half). Either this is an oversight on Rich's part, or Xykon seriously worked on his hitpoints or somehow got an impressive amount of regeneration. :huh:[/spoiler]
[Edit]
[spoiler]Actually, Red Cloak and the hobgoblin don't show any marks either, even after being hit by V's Chain Lightning. :?:[/spoiler][/Edit]
Quote from: Ra-TielSomehow I get the feeling that yet another "partymember needs resurrection" plot is comming up. ^^
But what really surprised me:
[spoiler]Xykon wasn't even scorched by the empowered sunburst. No marks or bruises of any sort, which I find a bit confusing considering the spell dealt at least 17d6*1.5 (or ~89 on average) points of damage to the lich (Ref save half). Either this is an oversight on Rich's part, or Xykon seriously worked on his hitpoints or somehow got an impressive amount of regeneration. :huh:[/spoiler]
[Edit]
[spoiler]Actually, Red Cloak and the hobgoblin don't show any marks either, even after being hit by V's Chain Lightning. :?:[/spoiler][/Edit]
Xykon has stated he's been making a lot of Magic Items lately... Maybe he made some that absorb the energies of the blast?
As for the Goblinoids... I have no idea.
I'm sure this is not a mistake and all will be revealed in the next few comics, especially as Redcloak and Xykon gloat.
remember just because they are the most powerful evil mages to be damned to the lower planes doesn't mean that there aren't more powerful evil casters that are still living. Or in this case unliving, but you get my point.
Quote from: Loch Belthaddremember just because they are the most powerful evil mages to be damned to the lower planes doesn't mean that there aren't more powerful evil casters that are still living. Or in this case unliving, but you get my point.
Perhaps but they have shown far more power than xykon ever has. Not saying Xykon couldn't be that powerful but that so far the souls have made known how vastly powerful they are.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Loch Belthaddremember just because they are the most powerful evil mages to be damned to the lower planes doesn't mean that there aren't more powerful evil casters that are still living. Or in this case unliving, but you get my point.
Perhaps but they have shown far more power than xykon ever has. Not saying Xykon couldn't be that powerful but that so far the souls have made known how vastly powerful they are.
Very true however, when have we ever seen Xykon care enough to dedicate his whole effort to a specific task?
Randomly, I read a good theory as to how Xykon cast a 12 level spell - he used Sudden Maximize rather than normal maximize. This would definitely allow for Xykon to be a much lower level than 26th but still allow him the ability to pull off those big spells (albeit once per day).
Quick question: If V dies, do you guys think he'll go to one of the Evil planes (i.e. Hell), the Neutral ones or the Good ones?
V is True Neutral, but his recent deal might have nudged him into the evil zone.
#653 is wonderful. Xykon gained like 10 levels of awesome since his last appearance. :D
I see V dying in 1 or 2 strips. without his splices he is no match for Xykon.
I can't access the comic... Can one of you post it?
[spoiler=here ya go]
(//../../e107_files/public/1242248846_849_FT65142_dehlzjhkc0uctmxmaza.gif)[/spoiler]
Quote from: Loch Belthadd[spoiler=here ya go]
(//../../e107_files/public/1242248846_849_FT65142_dehlzjhkc0uctmxmaza.gif)[/spoiler]
Thanks! <3
Wow, just wow. V is totally screwed. The best he can hope for now is a team up and I doubt Xykon would go for it (though he is known for being eccentric at times... so who knows?).
Still Xykon is waaay more powerful than anyone gave him credit for.
anyone else notice that V's robe has gone back to plain ol' red?
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Loch Belthadd[spoiler=here ya go]
(//../../e107_files/public/1242248846_849_FT65142_dehlzjhkc0uctmxmaza.gif)[/spoiler]
Thanks! <3
Wow, just wow. V is totally screwed. The best he can hope for now is a team up and I doubt Xykon would go for it (though he is known for being eccentric at times... so who knows?).
Still Xykon is waaay more powerful than anyone gave him credit for.
Not really, V just used up a whole ton of power killing black dragons and tp'ing around. Even then he would have gotten away if his wards hadn't failed or the splice had lasted one more round.
Quote from: Nomadic[...] Even then he would have gotten away if his wards hadn't failed or the splice had lasted one more round.
I'm not so sure about that. Remember he used
Epic Teleport to enter Azure City, and that Xykon's
Cloister is still active and may as well block normal (non-epic) teleport effects. A "lowly" level 6 cleric spell can already do that:
Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm), so it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume the same for Xykon's epic spell. Basically he'd use the
Ward seed to block all forms of teleport within the spell's area with an ad-hoc modifier to allow a certain number of people to be not affected by it (himself, Red Cloak, the necro chick, etc).
Anyway, V's seriously <bleep>ed now. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he wil get out of this.
Quote from: Ra-TielAnyway, V's seriously <bleep>ed now. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he wil get out of this.
I'm hoping in the form of a new undead zombie in the service of Tsukiko!
Quote from: Ra-TielQuote from: Nomadic[...] Even then he would have gotten away if his wards hadn't failed or the splice had lasted one more round.
I'm not so sure about that. Remember he used Epic Teleport to enter Azure City, and that Xykon's Cloister is still active and may as well block normal (non-epic) teleport effects. A "lowly" level 6 cleric spell can already do that: Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm), so it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume the same for Xykon's epic spell. Basically he'd use the Ward seed to block all forms of teleport within the spell's area with an ad-hoc modifier to allow a certain number of people to be not affected by it (himself, Red Cloak, the necro chick, etc).
Anyway, V's seriously <bleep>ed now. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he wil get out of this.
Don't hold me to this but I recall somewhere saying that cloister only blocks things outside from getting in and things inside from getting out. Anyhow it obviously isn't a standard epic teleblock as it also stops scrying.
Quote from: Rich Burlow on the OOTS siteNew comic is up.
EDIT: Oh, and since I got a few dozen emails about it, yes, the art for OOTS #652 was missing the proper battle damage on Xykon, Redcloak, and Jirix. A revised version has been uploaded.
So there's our answer for why the Goblins and Xykon were undamaged.
Also, the comic looks A LOT better with the battle damage added in.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Rich Burlow on the OOTS siteNew comic is up.
EDIT: Oh, and since I got a few dozen emails about it, yes, the art for OOTS #652 was missing the proper battle damage on Xykon, Redcloak, and Jirix. A revised version has been uploaded.
Realistic battle damage makes everything more awesome.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Rich Burlow on the OOTS siteNew comic is up.
EDIT: Oh, and since I got a few dozen emails about it, yes, the art for OOTS #652 was missing the proper battle damage on Xykon, Redcloak, and Jirix. A revised version has been uploaded.
Realistic battle damage makes everything more awesome.
Especially Looney Tunes...
Looks like we may be seeing the climax to this whole story arc pretty soon. (New Comic Up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html))
Xykon is about to get owned, o'chul style
If only the interweb version of O-Chul was the O-Chul in the comic...
Sadly, Xykon will defeat O-Chul however there is now hope for V.
-I fear for O'Chul.
He will probably, however, end up slaying either the orange hobgoblin or Tsukiko, though, before he goes down.
Quote from: Light Dragon-I fear for O'Chul.
He will probably, however, end up slaying either the orange hobgoblin or Tsukiko, though, before he goes down.
I'll bet 10 Turtle Dollars on the Orange Hobgoblin biting it first!
QuoteHe will probably, however, end up slaying either the orange hobgoblin or Tsukiko, though, before he goes down.
something[/i], and he may decide to take out a minion, knowing he can't hurt a lich that well. Regardless, he will die
gloriously. :)
Quote from: NomadicXykon is about to get owned, o'chul style
Uhmmm... no.
Remember how O-Chul got in this mess in the first place: failing the
Fort save against Xykon's
paralyzing touch back awhile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html). Remember that the save DC would be in the low to mid 30s (10 + 1/2 level + Xykon's Cha mod). Even more, with that iron bar (which would at best count as a club and as an improvised weapon at worst) he wouldn't be able to kill Xykon in one round. And even if Xykon was low on hit points and O-Chul could actually hit him, he'd simply come back in a few days.
Even if you go with the stats from the class and level geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5181986#post5181986) in the GITP forums, O-Chul would likely have a Fort save of at most +12 or so (considering that Cha is his dump stat and he has no magic items whatsoever, and assuming a base Con of 18 with 2 level increases put in for a 20). He'd likely save only on a natural 20.
Seriously, I see no way of O-Chul scoring
any points here.
Quote from: Ra-TielQuote from: NomadicXykon is about to get owned, o'chul style
Uhmmm... no.
Remember how O-Chul got in this mess in the first place: failing the Fort save against Xykon's paralyzing touch back awhile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html). Remember that the save DC would be in the low to mid 30s (10 + 1/2 level + Xykon's Cha mod). Even more, with that iron bar (which would at best count as a club and as an improvised weapon at worst) he wouldn't be able to kill Xykon in one round. And even if Xykon was low on hit points and O-Chul could actually hit him, he'd simply come back in a few days.
Even if you go with the stats from the class and level geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5181986#post5181986) in the GITP forums, O-Chul would likely have a Fort save of at most +12 or so (considering that Cha is his dump stat and he has no magic items whatsoever, and assuming a base Con of 18 with 2 level increases put in for a 20). He'd likely save only on a natural 20.
Seriously, I see no way of O-Chul scoring any points here.
You seem to be unaware of the o'chul jokes so I will let this slide (but just this once). Basically o'chul has become the equivalent of chuck norris on the OOTS forum. I was being about as serious as limetom at a meme convention.
Who would win in a fight - Chuck Norris, Mr.T or O-Chul?
The point of O'Chul dying gloriously, I would think- is to set the stage for the MiTD eventually rebelling against Xykon and perhaps allowing V to survive or to flee.
Still- I will miss him.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfWho would win in a fight - Chuck Norris, Mr.T or O-Chul?
O'Chul obviously. He would break chuck's face with his beard and then slap mr t with his teacup and strangle him to death.
Quote from: NomadicYou seem to be unaware of the o'chul jokes so I will let this slide (but just this once). Basically o'chul has become the equivalent of chuck norris on the OOTS forum. I was being about as serious as limetom at a meme convention.
I wasn't very active on the GITP forums to begin with, and certainly avoided the threads you mentioned like the devil an ocean of holy water. ;)
After all...
[spoiler](http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7656/motivator3923105ft5.jpg)[/spoiler]
Quote from: Elemental_ElfWho would win in a fight - Chuck Norris, Mr.T or O-Chul?
He. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxScTbIUvoA) ;) :P
PS: Do you think I may be a little too involved with creating my starpact warlock? :huh:
Remember me to always politely decline any offer to participate in any of Rich's games. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html
Called shots in a d20 game, 'nough said. :-/
Also, when exactly did O-Chul learn that Red Cloak's holy symbol was Xykon's phylactery? Hmm? I seemed to have missed the memo.
Quote from: Ra-TielRemember me to always politely decline any offer to participate in any of Rich's games. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html
Called shots in a d20 game, 'nough said. :-/
Also, when exactly did O-Chul learn that Red Cloak's holy symbol was Xykon's phylactery? Hmm? I seemed to have missed the memo.
That was an EPIC comic, god O-Chul is awesome!
I find it crazy that Word of Recall, a Cleric spell, does not require a Divine Focus but the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsTtoZ.html#word-of-recall)is king.
As for when O-Chul the Goblinslayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_II#Byzantine_conquest_of_Bulgaria)learned of Xykon's phylactery... Well Paladins are well versed in the toys of their enemies... Further, the Order could have mentioned it during the planning stages of the Battle for Azure City .
Quote from: Elemental_ElfThat was an EPIC comic, god O-Chul is awesome! [...]
I'd rather say that it has less to do with O-Chul being awesome but more with the tide of plot. Somehow Smite Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmiteEvil) in combination with the Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) seems to be the ultimate excuse in OOTS to throw rules out of the window, but mostly only whenever it benefits the good guys.
The bar would definitively count as an improvised weapon. Considering its length and that it can easily be held and wielded in one hand, the stats of a short spear fit quite good.
So, considering that O-Chul is
a) butt-naked
b) wielding an improvised weapon (including the non-proficiency penalty)
c) unbuffed
d) severly injured and likely not at full hit points (see the torture marks and scars all across his body)
how the heck does he actually manage to
a) survive the
disintegrate (remember that his Fort Save is +12, at most)
b) hit a fully equipped and probably buffed cleric
c) maim him so much that he has to get the emergency exit
???
Let's say that O-Chul has Str 16, Cha 10 (he mentioned that CHA was his dump stat) and is fighter 4/paladin 7 (he has 3 attacks per round and further said in an earlier comic that he was a fighter before becoming a paladin). This means he has an attack modifier of 11 (BAB) + 3 (STR) - 4 (non-proficiency) = 10 and with a successful hit would deal 1d6 (base) + 4 (STR, two-handed) + 7 (smite evil) = 1d6 + 11 = ~14 points of damage. Even on a critical hit that would only amount to ~29 damage.
Anway, the called shot thing bugs me the most. :-/
[nerdrage]I want to see V's hands chopped off and his tongue cut out. After all, if the good guys can do called shots the evil guys can do, too![/nerdrage]
Wow, Ra-Tiel, seems you have a grudge against the good guys in the comic? :)
Great comic, but I imagine it can't end is well as it looks like it will. Hopefully V is able to warp the two of them out of there somehow before people die.
Quote from: IshmaylWow, Ra-Tiel, seems you have a grudge against the good guys in the comic? :)
No, I don't have a grudge against them per se. I'm just moderately pissed of that the rules work differently for some characters. There's really no reason why a melee guy at around level 11 completely naked short of a loin-cloth and with an iron bar as improvised weapon should be able to take on a fully equipped and buffed cleric that is at least 4 levels higher.
And don't get me started on that called shot to the eye thing. x.
Quote from: IshmaylGreat comic, but I imagine it can't end is well as it looks like it will. Hopefully V is able to warp the two of them out of there somehow before people die.
Both O-Chul and V deserve (un)death, simple as that. Roy got stomped into the ground for trying to take on Xykon alone, so why should an out-of-spells squishy and a lower-level NPC do better than him?
1. He stabbed out the eye so Redcloak is now "Left Eye"
In the earlier books, Redcloak betrayed his brother and friend "Right Eye".
This is why there was a called shot.
2. Scars do not mean injury. Scars are healed. It is possible he is kept at full hitpoints while imprisoned so that he can survive whatever "atrocity" Team Evil throws at him.
3. O'Chul's constitution score is perhaps around 22. And he probably took Fort Feats. It is likely he is Paladin 1/Fighter 12 or something of the sort and it is also possible he gained experience while imprisoned (fighting the Undead gladiators singlehandedly). I believe that would give him a significant fortitude save.
4. I do agree with you on this, though: I do not really understand why Redcloak fled, other than for story purposes. But I suppose losing an eye can scare the heck out of you.
For Completeness:
OOTS Boards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6123594&postcount=6) and http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6123545&postcount=2)
"Read the comic title: "With a Critical Eye". O-Chul scored a critical hit on Redcloack while charging and catching him flatfooted, well within the rules of D&D even for a lower (than RC) level Fighter-Paladin with no equipment."
"Furtharmore, once a cleric has been disarmed of their holy symbol, they loose access to most of their magic, and Redcloak has never been one for melee... so once he looses his magic, those higher levels don't mean nearly as much anymore if he is not armed to fight... He was unamred with his only advantage was maybe higher HP... and you can be sure O'Chul was gonna take advantage of those attack of opportunity when he tried to get..."
5. Allegedly this is how he knows about the phylactery
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112071
"He was in the room when Soon was talking about it, but he was paralyzed, could he still have heard it?"
"He was paralyzed, not deaf."
6. Random O'Chul Stats Discussion: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6124052#post6124052
Firstly O'chul likely has the greatest constitution of any paladin in the SG. Secondly he knows about the phylactery because he was paralyzed and in the same room as Soon when he talked about it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html). Thirdly, as rich has said before. Plot outrules the rules of the game. The left eye thing is actually a pretty major connection back to the origins of the bad guys. Oh and as to why he retreated, o-chul took away his focus (the phylactery). Without a focus a cleric is toast against a fighter/paladin.
Quote from: NomadicWithout a focus a cleric is toast against a fighter/paladin.
Back in the day, I found that out the hard way... 3/4 BAB and a d8 HD do not save you when a Greataxe-wielding Barbarian comes charging your way.
Quote from: Light Dragon1. He stabbed out the eye so Redcloak is now "Left Eye"
In the earlier books, Redcloak betrayed his brother and friend "Right Eye".
This is why there was a called shot.
I know I've read that before, I just can't think of where. Link?
Quote from: Rorschach FritosQuote from: Light Dragon1. He stabbed out the eye so Redcloak is now "Left Eye"
In the earlier books, Redcloak betrayed his brother and friend "Right Eye".
This is why there was a called shot.
I know I've read that before, I just can't think of where. Link?
It isn't in the comics it's in the book "start of darkness"
Quote from: Rorschach FritosQuote from: Light Dragon1. He stabbed out the eye so Redcloak is now "Left Eye"
In the earlier books, Redcloak betrayed his brother and friend "Right Eye".
This is why there was a called shot.
I know I've read that before, I just can't think of where. Link?
It's in a print only book called the Start of Darkness (http://apegames.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=OOTS03).
EDIT: Aww, Ninja'd!
This seems to be an old collection of OOTS from dragon magazine (http://www.4shared.com/get/46855761/811fc50f/Order_of_the_Stick.html)
loch... you are my hero
Quote from: Loch Belthadd This seems to be an old collection of OOTS from dragon magazine (http://www.4shared.com/get/46855761/811fc50f/Order_of_the_Stick.html)
I <3 You!
Quote from: Nomadicloch... you are my hero
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: Loch Belthadd This seems to be an old collection of OOTS from dragon magazine (http://www.4shared.com/get/46855761/811fc50f/Order_of_the_Stick.html)
I <3 You!
:bow:
[ic]Dragons HAVE a word for 'swarm of puffins?'
Actually, they have three.[/ic]
Priceless.
Quote from: Stargate525[ic]Dragons HAVE a word for 'swarm of puffins?'
Actually, they have three.[/ic]
Priceless.
I agree... that was epic
I'm surprised Belkar even knew what Escargot was :)
according to [spoiler=this]
(//../../e107_files/public/1243263953_849_FT65142_c7hgbsyx1ep8sanyjm1.gif)[/spoiler] Xycon should be somewhere in the 30-40 range, not counting lich mod. Asuming forecage has a 1 hour per level time, and it lasts for a day and a half, it must equal about level 36.
Note that that wasn't a "real" forcecage, so its duration is up for grabs. (I believe that was the "moderately escapable" forcecage).
Xykon is so powerful, he'd waste a precious Sorcerer Spell Slot on an Escapable Forcecage!
Quote from: Elemental_ElfXykon is so powerful, he'd waste a precious Sorcerer Spell Slot on an Escapable Forcecage!
Correction, Xykon wanted the next gate so badly that he wasted a precious sorcerer spell slot in order to further his plot. Again the best guess for his level so far is the low to mid 20s (21-25). Considering the average level of most adventurers in OOTS this is still exceptionally powerful.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfXykon is so powerful, he'd waste a precious Sorcerer Spell Slot on an Escapable Forcecage!
Correction, Xykon wanted the next gate so badly that he wasted a precious sorcerer spell slot in order to further his plot. Again the best guess for his level so far is the low to mid 20s (21-25). Considering the average level of most adventurers in OOTS this is still exceptionally powerful.
Touche, good sir, touche.
New OOTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)
Looks like V might get away, with the Fiend's help of course. To bad for O-Chul, looks like he might have finally been slain... :(
Quote from: Elemental_ElfLooks like V might get away, with the Fiend's help of course. To bad for O-Chul, looks like he might have finally been slain... :(
At least he went down fighting.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfLooks like V might get away, with the Fiend's help of course. To bad for O-Chul, looks like he might have finally been slain... :(
At least he went down fighting.
Very true, it definitely is a Warrior's Death.
I doubt he was slain, considering the fact that Giant didn't show it to us, it seems pretty likely X just knocked him cold, or incapacitated him somehow. Or maybe even just got bored. It's Xykon, after all. Being who he is, I could see him not wanting to get rid of his toy so quickly and easily.
Off screen deaths don't count until they're confirmed on screen.
Quote from: PhoenixOff screen deaths don't count until they're confirmed on screen.
Unless it's a redshirt
Quote from: PhoenixOff screen deaths don't count until they're confirmed on screen.
Ah, nothing beats the Boba Fett Law of Off-Screen Death
well next one's up... o'chul just keeps getting more awesome, and even V was pretty cool with his noble act with those potions.
Quote from: Nomadicwell next one's up... o'chul just keeps getting more awesome, and even V was pretty cool with his noble act with those potions.
Totally agree, O-Chul FTW!
Let's just hope Giant doesn't pull yet another anti-climactic false build-up, and we actually get to see the heroes act competently for a change.
Quote from: IshmaylLet's just hope Giant doesn't pull yet another anti-climactic false build-up, and we actually get to see the heroes act competently for a change.
This is OOTS, not Batman :)
I just hope O-Chul makes it out alive...
I dunno, there have been a few instances where the heroes have had the opportunity to be badass (Roy kicking Miko's ass in the throne room, Elan besting Nale, Haley slaying her rival in the thieves' guild), just much more often, there is a huge build-up, and then the heroes blunder stupidly... I'm just hoping for a badass moment to get us out of these current shenanigans.
Quote from: IshmaylI dunno, there have been a few instances where the heroes have had the opportunity to be badass (Roy kicking Miko's ass in the throne room, Elan besting Nale, Haley slaying her rival in the thieves' guild), just much more often, there is a huge build-up, and then the heroes blunder stupidly... I'm just hoping for a badass moment to get us out of these current shenanigans.
Unless they already used their bad ass moment for this story arc when O-Chul killed Jirix and half blinded Redcloak...
I am curious as to where redcloak's word of recall was set to. If it was set to another part of the city that is fine. However, what if it was set way back when to his old home? Him showing up there with an eye missing would make for a curious situation.
I'm not sure the Giant would include much more than Easter eggs from SOD...
next one is up... and o'chul is my hero...
Seriously, it's been what, like 300 strips at least since we saw that guy last? :)
nah alot less than that (maybe 60-80)
EPIC win for O-Chul! He's my HERO!
Also, V's raven... Nice.
V is also redeeming himself nicely with going back to help o'chul with the potions and with blackwing.
Quote from: NomadicV is also redeeming himself nicely with going back to help o'chul with the potions and with blackwing.
I just wonder how V will aid Blackwing and keep Xykon from killing the Raven... I mean the rift is probably farther away than Blackwing's move speed and Xykon is right on their tails to begin with...
There was actually something on that on the OOTS forums that went something like this:
- At V's level their familiar will have evasion
- Raven's have excellent DEX
- If V has even one obscuring spell (fog, invisibility, etc) it would make it very hard for Xykon to get it (especially after the fight likely drained him of strong dispells and other abilities)
- All V and O'chul have to do is hold Xykon off for a couple rounds while the raven does what it needs to do and while Xykon is quite strong he has still been drained by his fight with uber-V and can't just ignore the characters (o'chul for one could initiate a grapple and Xykon would lose a round in order to paralyze him).
Explosive runes! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html)
And Xycon thought that O Chul was the "cheeky bastard" of the strip...
Ahahahahaha, this is is awesome!
I saw the words, and it took about 10 full seconds to register their meaning. Then, I laughed so hard my chest stopped working. Nostalgia bonus to that joke had to be at least +2.
That was beautiful
I love how Blackwing is singing Ride of the Valkyries!
Also, Xykon chasing after Blackwing, leaping from a tall building superman style, classic!
660 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html) ... not quite what I expected.
... isn't that actually sort of a good thing for Xykon considering that no one will ever find it?
Or are there some half-hidden facts about not hiding your phylactery too far away?
Well, it should give the OotS a new dungeon crawl soon :)
As far as the "not far away," I don't know all the details and specs on phylacteries, but I know in the FR novels (where liches were common villains), the phylacteries were never kept on the person, and were usually hidden in a dungeon, even when the lich was out and about. So there didn't seem to be much of a limit to distance then.
I'm not sure how interesting a long sewer-based dungeon crawl could be, but then again, Dorukan's dungeon was pretty much just bland rooms (except for the really odd ones) and that turned out pretty well. We'll see :)
IIRC, a destroyed lich regenerates near the phylactery. I don't think there's any restriction to how far they can get from it, though.
It's good for Xycon in that it's well hidden, but might be a tad inconvenient when he regenerates. Or maybe it'll be good for that, too.
So to find it... he just has to kill himself!
... brilliant
Also, do you think the devils might collect on their debts next time the party is at full strength facing Xykon? (thus making V help Xykon in the battle)
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowSo to find it... he just has to kill himself!
... brilliant
Right, but unless Rich allows magically disfigured halflings, I think Xycon would prefer just waiting it out over a suicide that leads to a 66.6~% chance of ending up in a sewer. Besides, as long as he needs to wind up destroyed, why not cause some serious damage with a kamikaze attack?
Uuuhh... That was NOT what I was expecting, not at all.
Quote from: Cataclysmic Crow... isn't that actually sort of a good thing for Xykon considering that no one will ever find it?
Or are there some half-hidden facts about not hiding your phylactery too far away?
You always want your Phylactery hidden but always where you know it's safe. The best plans I've read about involve cutting a mountain in half, making a hallow 5x5 chamber made of pure adamantine, stocking up this room with tons of extra scrolls (especially teleporting ones) as well as some extra clothes. You then put a ton of abjurations on the chamber, including ones that prevent teleporting in, scrying of and destruction of the Chamber. Then you put the top half of the mountain back on and pretend like you were never there at all.
If you leave the Phylactery out in the middle of no where, there's always the chance something or someone will find it and have more than enough time to destroy it.
The good thing for the heroes is that there is now no longer an epic lich protecting it.
Quote from: NomadicThe good thing for the heroes is that there is now no longer an epic lich protecting it.
Though knowing the Giant, there is now an epic level Kraken guarding the phylactery... in its belly...
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicThe good thing for the heroes is that there is now no longer an epic lich protecting it.
Though knowing the Giant, there is now an epic level Kraken guarding the phylactery... in its belly...
just send in the scruffinator
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicThe good thing for the heroes is that there is now no longer an epic lich protecting it.
Though knowing the Giant, there is now an epic level Kraken guarding the phylactery... in its belly...
just send in the scruffinator
I'd rather send in the Belkanator!
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicThe good thing for the heroes is that there is now no longer an epic lich protecting it.
Though knowing the Giant, there is now an epic level Kraken guarding the phylactery... in its belly...
just send in the scruffinator
I'd rather send in the Belkanator!
doesn't he come with the scruffinator
I've said it before, but Rich is a genius with storytelling. Before you agree, let me be clear: this isn't just my way to say that I really like OotS a lot. So I'll say it, on record, as an aspiring graphic storyteller: Rich is a genius at storytelling. He has an overriding philosophy that he relies on for most, if not all, of the artistic decisions in OotS; the most important elements are not the ones that are shown, but the ones that aren't shown. This applies to everything from the recognizably minimalist style that he uses for the strip (which allows the reader to fill themselves in as the missing details), to a few gags (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html) that relied a lack of information, and much more. With that in mind, reconsider the last panel of:
Quote from: Loch BelthaddExplosive runes! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html)
Notice how the lack of explicit information effects the pace of that part of the comic. "time" seems to stop just long enough for the reader (and, in effect, Xycon as well) to register what exactly is going on. Also notice that this is the last panel of that particular strip. while the pacing for that last panel wouldn't allow for anything after it (another panel would pressure the reader to continue on), there's also the issue that the next panel just couldn't work in the same strip. The fact that it's missing only adds to it's impact.
So, I say again, Rich is a storytelling genius.
Edit-- with all of that in mind, enjoy my favorite example of that:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0402.html
I totally didn't see this coming.
[spoiler]The question was not if but when.[/spoiler]
Xykon just got... DENIED
Holy wowzers... Xykon is freaking crazy angry... Putting your hand in O-Chul's mouth, then casting Meteor Swarm...? That is both horribly evil and the end product is equally horrible, for the janitor who has to clean it up!
That is actually a pretty nasty technique.
Hmm, how long until a DnD team tries to copy him? :p
You mean you don't think this came up in Rich's game already?
I can't access the site. Can someone post it?
Yeah, that was pretty crazy. Hopefully we're pretty much wrapping up this arc now and get to a new one.
Loch, image should be attached below.
(//../../e107_files/public/1244635881_1_FT65142_oots661.gif)
Oh, and I don't think it was the monster in the darkness that teleported V and O Chul out. I think it was the fiends... they seemed to want V not dead.
I'm pretty sure it was the monster. The fiends specifically mention that they are powerless on the material plane.
Yea the fiends can't directly interfere except when making deals. That's not to say that it couldn't have been someone else but I personally think it was the MitD (who I still think is a grue :P).
We don't know what spell was used to get the out of there. It could have been a Wish, a Limited Wish, a Miracle , a teleport spell, a time stop, the psionic version of time stop, hell it could have been a basic Dimension Door.
Point being, there's a lot of things it *could* be...
Still I'd bank on the Monster In the Darkness or the fiend's indirect intervention (through an invisible Imp perhaps...?).
Quote from: Elemental_ElfStill I'd bank on the Monster In the Darkness or the fiend's indirect intervention (through an invisible Imp perhaps...?).
An imp can only teleport itself and about 50 lbs (remember the whole ordeal with V and Qarr).
Quote from: NomadicYea the fiends can't directly interfere except when making deals. That's not to say that it couldn't have been someone else but I personally think it was the MitD (who I still think is a grue :P).
Hey, you got that idea from me! :p
Quote from: NomadicUnless they are just being teleported to somewhere else inside the city then it couldn't have been a non-epic teleport spell due to cloister.
I thought the cloister only affected entry into and not leaving out of the city... How else would Redcloak's teleport work?
Quote from: NomadicAn imp can only teleport itself and about 50 lbs (remember the whole ordeal with V and Qarr).
I assumed the fiends would give him a magic item that either increased his capacity, decrease the weight of the two or allowed him to cast a different spell.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfI assumed the fiends would give him a magic item that either increased his capacity, decrease the weight of the two or allowed him to cast a different spell.
That seems a bit too Dues Ex Machina for Rich (not that Rich hasn't used Dues Ex Machina before but that he tends to use it very cleverly without any strain on viewer belief).
Quote from: IshmaylLoch, image should be attached below.
Thanks!
Quote from: NomadicMost likely like most other spells of the type by attuning the teleportation to him (and select other trusted members of team evil). Also we don't know if RC has even left the city (though I have a feeling we are eventually going to find out where he went).
That's a very powerful spell if certain people can be excluded from it... Of course, if it were a magic item that allowed Redcloak to bypass the Cloister, the that would be a totally different and completely plausible solution to the problem.
Quote from: NomadicThat seems a bit too Dues Ex Machina for Rich (not that Rich hasn't used Dues Ex Machina before but that he tends to use it very cleverly without any strain on viewer belief).
I totally agree, it is rather unlikely. :(
Yeaahhhh... MitD eyes were glowing/wobbly when he said "escape". (it could just be the zoom-in, but he's missing his usual eyebrows).
Also, tsuiko-whatsit, the mystic theurge, has previously admonished the MitD for thinking things could happens "just because he wished for it real hard."
So, yeah, I'm thinking things can happen just because the MitD wishes real hard :)
(I stole this theory fair and square from the OotS forums. It's mine now, they can't have it back. :P)
So you believe MitD can cast Wish as a Spell-Like Ability?
I believe Xykon suffered some major setbacks in these few minutes. He might be short his right hand man. Even if redcloak didn't teleport far, he's still a cleric without a holy symbol. He's lost his phylactery, and is going to have a damn hard time finding it, and MitD is starting to see xykon et al as his captors, rather than as his friends.
I see mystic theurge girl becoming more prominent in xykon strips in the near future. I see xykon either beset by more trouble or else hurried towards the next gate. I see us finding out where redcloak went. I see us maybe even finding the location of the phylactery as a direct result of xykon's second (in the course of the strip) death... much later.*
As for teleporting out... are these fiends the same three who were told about the gate a long long time ago by Sabine? The same ones who just got an epic teleport specialist's soul back? Do we really know all the resources at their disposal?
If it was MitD, which it may have been, it throws out most of my theories on what it could be.
*Watch him skip to whatever the hell Nale etc. are up to instead.
Quote from: beejazzI see mystic theurge girl becoming more prominent in xykon strips in the near future. I see xykon either beset by more trouble or else hurried towards the next gate. I see us finding out where redcloak went. I see us maybe even finding the location of the phylactery as a direct result of xykon's second (in the course of the strip) death... much later.*
I agree with this assessment. Not only was it Redcloak who lost Xykon's phylactery BUT it was Redcloak who insisted on staying in Azure City for months and months AND it was Redcloak who further insisted on keeping O-Chul alive during that same period. So really this *entire* series of mishaps would have never have occurred if Xykon had simply gone to the next gate.
So yes, I agree. Redcloak has fallen far out of favor with Xykon and his fall is, chiefly, to Tsukiko's benefit.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfThat's a very powerful spell if certain people can be excluded from it... Of course, if it were a magic item that allowed Redcloak to bypass the Cloister, the that would be a totally different and completely plausible solution to the problem.
Well technically it is an epic spell. However, I was thinking of things like the ward spells that can be deactivated with command words or simply set to ignore certain people.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfThat's a very powerful spell if certain people can be excluded from it... Of course, if it were a magic item that allowed Redcloak to bypass the Cloister, the that would be a totally different and completely plausible solution to the problem.
I like my Garage Door Opener idea. :)
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfThat's a very powerful spell if certain people can be excluded from it... Of course, if it were a magic item that allowed Redcloak to bypass the Cloister, the that would be a totally different and completely plausible solution to the problem.
I like my Garage Door Opener idea. :)
An epic garage door opener? That sounds like an artifact idea.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfSo you believe MitD can cast Wish as a Spell-Like Ability?
Yes, but I don't think MitD can do it on purpose, only when he/she/it fears for someone/something.
Quote from: Loch BelthaddQuote from: Elemental_ElfSo you believe MitD can cast Wish as a Spell-Like Ability?
Yes, but I don't think MitD can do it on purpose, only when he/she/it fears for someone/something.
I don't think it only is activated by fear. The MitD has shown that it doesn't understand what it is capable of. So it probably has all these abilities, it just doesn't use them because it doesn't know it has them/doesn't understand what they are.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Loch BelthaddQuote from: Elemental_ElfSo you believe MitD can cast Wish as a Spell-Like Ability?
Yes, but I don't think MitD can do it on purpose, only when he/she/it fears for someone/something.
I don't think it only is activated by fear. The MitD has shown that it doesn't understand what it is capable of. So it probably has all these abilities, it just doesn't use them because it doesn't know it has them/doesn't understand what they are.
Maybe, but humans gain ridiculous amounts of strength thanks to fear. When you feel a certain type of fear, your body releases a chemical that removes the restrictions on muscles, thus allowing to lift cars off of others. (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/07/arizona_man_lif.html) People actually are much stronger than their bodies allow. If you could normally use all of your muscle mass, you would be ripping your own muscles out left and right.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Loch BelthaddQuote from: Elemental_ElfSo you believe MitD can cast Wish as a Spell-Like Ability?
Yes, but I don't think MitD can do it on purpose, only when he/she/it fears for someone/something.
I don't think it only is activated by fear. The MitD has shown that it doesn't understand what it is capable of. So it probably has all these abilities, it just doesn't use them because it doesn't know it has them/doesn't understand what they are.
I totally agree. To use a pop culture reference, it's like when Harry Potter was first developing his magical powers. To cite an example, Harry, unknowingly, allowed Duddley to fall through the glass into a python's exhibit. The incident was completely unexplained and completely unimaginable. Harry had no idea *he* was the direct cause of the incident, all Harry knew was that he enjoyed the ocurence. Thus, the Monster in the Darkness may very well be doing the same thing. He doesn't know he has Wish as a Spell-Like Ability but when ever he gets fairly emotional, things always happen to make him happy again, citing the return of the paralyzed O-Chul and the sudden disappearance of O-Chul and V as examples.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Loch BelthaddQuote from: Elemental_ElfSo you believe MitD can cast Wish as a Spell-Like Ability?
Yes, but I don't think MitD can do it on purpose, only when he/she/it fears for someone/something.
I don't think it only is activated by fear. The MitD has shown that it doesn't understand what it is capable of. So it probably has all these abilities, it just doesn't use them because it doesn't know it has them/doesn't understand what they are.
and/or MitD might have to
really want something bad before it's activated. I mean, it can't just be "oh, i wish I had an ice cream right now", it has to be "I wish my only real friend wasn't about to die right now".
Quote from: Loch BelthaddQuote from: NomadicQuote from: Loch BelthaddQuote from: Elemental_ElfSo you believe MitD can cast Wish as a Spell-Like Ability?
Yes, but I don't think MitD can do it on purpose, only when he/she/it fears for someone/something.
I don't think it only is activated by fear. The MitD has shown that it doesn't understand what it is capable of. So it probably has all these abilities, it just doesn't use them because it doesn't know it has them/doesn't understand what they are.
Maybe, but humans gain ridiculous amounts of strength thanks to fear. When you feel a certain type of fear, your body releases a chemical that removes the restrictions on muscles, thus allowing to lift cars off of others. (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/07/arizona_man_lif.html) People actually are much stronger than their bodies allow. If you could normally use all of your muscle mass, you would be ripping your own muscles out left and right.
We don't gain any strength. It's always there, the FoF response simply disables the safeties so that we can use it. Thus going back to what I said, MitD has always been this strong. Connecting with what RF said above though, he needs the motivation to recognize his strength.
Quote from: NomadicWe don't gain any strength. It's always there, the FoF response simply disables the safeties so that we can use it.
That's what I said.
Quote from: Loch BelthaddThat's what I said.
Don't you love it when people try to debate something that they unwittingly agree on?
Quote from: Loch BelthaddQuote from: NomadicWe don't gain any strength. It's always there, the FoF response simply disables the safeties so that we can use it.
That's what I said.
It may have been what you were thinking but it wasn't what you said. And I do know we are both in general agreement I just want to clarify my thoughts on things. :P
Man, Xykon is pissed! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html
Panel #10 has possibly the best line in the series thus far.
Yeah, he's pretty pissed...
5 will get you 10, Xykon's no eye regeneration punishment will screw him in the end.
I really expected Roy to show up alive by now (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html)
Quote from: IshmaylI really expected Roy to show up alive by now (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html)
In the immortal words of Porkins (from Star Wars IV) "Almost there!"
At any rate, this was a good comic, I feel an ending to the arc coming sooner rather than later... I wonder if the Giant is going to stretch this out so it ends on Comic 666, or save 666 for the beginning of the new Arc... Or do something painfully anti-climatic (which will probably be the case).
Honestly, I can't really imagine him caring one way or the other about 666...
But I agree that I feel an ending coming soon.
Quote from: IshmaylHonestly, I can't really imagine him caring one way or the other about 666...
I've learned to never underestimate, nor overestimate the Giant...
Hrm... I figured taking over a week to make the next comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) there would be a little more to it than this....
DANG IT! I was hoping for the big finale!
Oh well, he probably made this one and has spent the rest of the time making the finale!
Good comic though.
Will be good to have roy back
Quote from: NomadicWill be good to have roy back
I love the idea of the band getting back together, I can't wait for 665!
in the flesh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html)
And on the face.
He's invisible!
The Gang's back together now! YAY!!!!
This Kodak Moment brought to you by the Giant in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)
I guess I expected more fanfare. But this seven-week deadline--I wonder if that's real world time for the adventure arc. Or if the comic ends after that?
No telling. I know at one point, in some interview awhile back, Rich said "The comic will eventually end. There are fewer strips remaining than what I've written so far, " or something along those lines. Someone on the site figured it up to be the comic would necessarily (if Rich's math was correct) end by 1000 or so. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114189) discusses it a bit, and there is another thread linked within that discusses it more.
Anyway, I figure from some interview Rich said awhile back, he's got about 2 more books worth left of story, so maybe 300-ish more strips from where we are now?
I'd be interested in what his next project would be, then, too.
Quote from: PhoenixI'd be interested in what his next project would be, then, too.
His conquest of the world with evil halfling ranger/barbarians... obviously
Hmm, Rich could always start a new Fantasy style comic with new heroes, hopefully set in the same world... Unless the Snarl eats it...
Quote from: Elemental_ElfHmm, Rich could always start a new Fantasy style comic with new heroes, hopefully set in the same world... Unless the Snarl eats it...
I would almost prefer to have him go back to writing roleplay ideas like he used to.
Na, I wants me more comics... A man of his caliber can't be content with Roleplaying articles alone... Then again, I'd love it if he did both!
I think he can sell books for the comics, but not the articles. I was under the impression OotS was now one of his main sources of income.
Mending Wounds, OOTS #667 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html#)
I like that one more. The Tiamat thing made me chuckle, too.
Man, 1/4 of all her black dragon children were wiped off the face of the earth due to the Fiends... Yeah she is going to be pissed.
Maybe Tiamat is one of the 9 sides the roaches talked about...
OOTS
Linear Guild
The Fiends
Xykon
Redcloak
The Northern Good Gods
Tiamat
Azureites
Monster in the Darkness?
I suppose the last one is a bit of a stretch...
9 Sides? What comic talked about that?
Thank you for explaining why Tiamat would be on the phone-- I did not immediately make the connection.
Good ole Comic #548 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)
The Roaches say that there are 9 sides in this conflict, some of which haven't even been revealed.
Ok. Thank you!
As for your suppositions:
"OOTS - Check. Easy to see.
Linear Guild - Check. Easy to see.
The Fiends - Check. Easy to see.
Xykon - Check. Easy to see.
Redcloak - Check. Easy to see.
The Northern Good Gods - ??? I am not sure how they are not aligned the same as the OOTS.
Tiamat - Perhaps... Given current developments.
Azureites - ???? They don't care and lack the resources? Hinjo's on the same side as the OOTS for now.
Monster in the Darkness - Possibly? But not strong.
Out of what we have seen, unless a side splits, I cannot see more than 5/6 distinct sides currently. And the GiTP author likes to leave hints in for things that will happen later- but I find it difficult to discern any new sides. It will be interesting to see what develops for the remaining 3... Most likely it may be a split on a side--
The dwarves/Durkon differing from Belkar differing from the rest of the OOTS, for example ?
The roaches are obviously their own side. A secret, superpower in waiting. They prepare to strike when we least expect it.
When I first read that, I thought they were making a reference to the nine alignments. Now I'm leaning toward it being an actual plot point, but I'm still not convinced that it's not an alignment reference.
Alignment check for the proposed "sides", anyone?
Possible alignment check:
OotS: Overall NG. Belkar and V are at least acting good, whatever their real alignments, and there's both law and chaos there.
Linear Guild: Averages out to N, I'd say; yeah, they're opposing OotS, but there's no overall evil there, just rivalry, and the alignments cancel out (Nale + Thog + that dwarf whose name I don't remember + Sabine = L + C + G + E).
Fiends: Overall NE, since the devils and demons cancel out the ethical axis.
Xykon: CE, easily.
Redcloak: LN, I think; he's not really acting for an evil purpose, just trying to help the goblins, regardless of the Dark One influence.
Northern Gods: I'd say CG; the Norse pantheon as portrayed in OotS is quite a bit more relaxed than their real-life portrayal.
Tiamat: LE, of course.
Azurites: Overall LG. The common folk probably don't care about much except survival and rebuilding at this point, but the leaders (and thus the source of their motivation) are a bunch of paladins.
MitD: Strikes me as CN: he's a bit random and funny, doesn't quite know what he's doing.
It might be a bit of a stretch in some cases, but I can definitely see an alignment correspondence there.
I can agree with most of your post except the Linear Guild. The dwarf (Hilgya) is no longer with them, and she was the only redeeming factor in their group. The rest of them are overwhelmingly evil, except possibly Thog, who may just be CN. But Nale and Sabine by themselves shift the balance far over onto the evil side of the axis.
Quote from: IshmaylI can agree with most of your post except the Linear Guild. The dwarf (Hilgya) is no longer with them, and she was the only redeeming factor in their group. The rest of them are overwhelmingly evil, except possibly Thog, who may just be CN. But Nale and Sabine by themselves shift the balance far over onto the evil side of the axis.
I'm going to agree with this. Also, I'm not convinced Redcloak is entirely lawful (he thought up the cup-game tactic, relying on the Order's general expectation of lawfulness), or that he's not evil. I suppose we'll have to see for that.
Belkar, as an individual, I'd say was definitely CE, but since being forced to behave LG, I'd say he's having a big shift toward CN, or even as far as TN. I think I'd agree that the Order as a whole is probably NG, though.
where has belkar done anything good recently?
Okay, LN, but only because being forced to refrain from evil deeds isn't the same as being forced to good deeds.
So some revelations this time round.
Quote from: IshmaylI can agree with most of your post except the Linear Guild. The dwarf (Hilgya) is no longer with them, and she was the only redeeming factor in their group. The rest of them are overwhelmingly evil, except possibly Thog, who may just be CN. But Nale and Sabine by themselves shift the balance far over onto the evil side of the axis.
Wasn't Hilgya a cleric of a CE god though? I doubt she's fully good aligned. I'd characterise the Guild as CN or CE. They're hardly true neutral.
Hell, given that he doesn't do much of anything, maybe MitD is true neutral... for now at least.
OOTS 668 is now up! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)
I love the damage on Director Lee.
Comic 670! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)
The elves have arrived and are kicking goblin butt...
wow I feel dirty just for saying that...
Quote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME COWBOYThe elves have arrived and are kicking goblin butt...
wow I feel dirty just for saying that...
Don't feel dirty, we all know Elves kick butt!
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME COWBOYThe elves have arrived and are kicking goblin butt...
wow I feel dirty just for saying that...
Don't feel dirty, we all know Elves kick butt!
Until the dwarves show up
Quote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME COWBOYQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME COWBOYThe elves have arrived and are kicking goblin butt...
wow I feel dirty just for saying that...
Don't feel dirty, we all know Elves kick butt!
Until the dwarves show up
Aye but they be a reclusive lot.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME COWBOYQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME COWBOYThe elves have arrived and are kicking goblin butt...
wow I feel dirty just for saying that...
Don't feel dirty, we all know Elves kick butt!
Until the dwarves show up
Aye but they be a reclusive lot.
And prone to traps baited with ale.
/me smells the end of an arc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)
672 is up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)
[spoiler=Speculation]
The Snarl didn't actually destroy the original world, and has been keeping it hostage? Or possibly using it to gain worshipers, to thus gain power?
[/spoiler]
I am liking V more with each passing strip. Their character development is getting awesome. Also if V is a girl I would have to say that she makes for a pretty cute one (as cute as a stick figure can be that is :P). I'm digging the ponytail + magus robes combo.
Notice how half the planet is white?
Anyway, I'm uncertain how I feel about the latest. It felt good, but didn't really move things forward that much.
Wandering One, I agree. That
is a nice combo. Of course, if we ever find out that V is actually a guy, these comments will seem just a touch more awkward...
Quote from: PhoenixNotice how half the planet is white?
Anyway, I'm uncertain how I feel about the latest. It felt good, but didn't really move things forward that much.
Icecaps, it seems. Why the one is so much bigger than the other, I have no clue. Otherwise, though, is it just me, or does that planet seem very... Earth-like?
Quote from: Rorschach FritosWandering One, I agree. That is a nice combo. Of course, if we ever find out that V is actually a guy, these comments will seem just a touch more awkward...
If this is the case I will of course deny the whole thing and attribute it to a hacker in Bangladesh.
^^ I can vouch for said hacker(s)
Quote from: Ishmayl[spoiler=Speculation]
The Snarl didn't actually destroy the original world, and has been keeping it hostage? Or possibly using it to gain worshipers, to thus gain power?
[/spoiler]
Me thinks OOTS is going to have to go there to defeat Snarl.
Wow, 3 new comics up since Rich's return and the last post in this thread:
673 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html)
674 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0674.html)
675 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)
Love the direction OOTS has taken since going West.
Agreed... it's finally back on track. Don't get me wrong I loved the azure city arc but it split up the party and that really slowed things down.
Big ol' bump.
Since one of the biggest complaints Rich has is the perceived quality of his artwork, I'd like to clarify my own position on that issue. I know none of you seem to have that complaint, but here goes anyway:
[spoiler]
By de-emphasizing the appearance of the physical world in favor of the idea of form, the cartoon places itself in the world of concepts.
Through traditional realism, the comics artist can portray the world without--
--and through the cartoon, the world within.
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/joshing.png)
When cartoons are used throughout a story, the world of that story may seem to pulse with life.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8f/Orderofthestick_Newer.gif)
Inanimate objects may seem to possess seperate identities, so that if one jumped up and started singing it wouldn't feel out of place.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nM2K0FPtDz8/SxNuzMrcoaI/AAAAAAAAAxU/iinfY7owFmw/s1600/intermission2.jpg)
[spoiler=Credits]
Text: Understanding Comics, by Scott McCloud. (Rich is an obvious student of this guy's work. For a really deep appreciation of what goes on in the strip, i'd suggest this book.)
XKCD: Randall Munroe
Order of the Stick: Rich Burlew
Popcorn: Artist unknown, intermission film
[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Back on topic:
Looks like Durkon's headed for his own adventure. Cool!
The latest OOTS had me rolling on the floor laughing!
[spoiler=Comic](//../../e107_files/public/1279863681_503_FT65142_gcavkhrvc0fbogp8zcs.gif)[/spoiler]