I am trying to build a demonic pantheon designed to make humanity suffer and ultimately destroy it. I am looking for more spheres of influence to add to the list below. Also, if you see a better way to organize the list please let me know. I went back and forth on several of them, especially where to place the Undead. Thanks for any help or feedback you can provide.
Pleasure: Addiction, Hedonism
Perversity: Blasphemy
Love: Betrayal, Infatuation
Cruelty: Sadism, Torture
Violence: Rape, Murder
Oblivion: Soullessness, the Undead, Death
Stagnation: Neglect, Despair, Apathy
Vengeance: Hatred, Rage
Darkness: Ignorance, Lies
Conceit: Indignation, Jealousy, Hubris
Beauty: Desire, Temptation
Domination: Ambition, Enslavement
Tragedy: Misfortune, Contagion, Famine
Insanity: Mania, Delusion, Compulsion
Frailty: Hopelessness, Doubt
Greed: Excess, Selfishness, Corruption
Malice: Theft, Abuse, Injury, Insult
Fear: Cowardice
Chaos: Confusion, Disorder
Destruction: War, Disaster
Pleasure: Narcosis (may or may not be distinct from Addiction; applies specifically to self-stupefication through indulgence)
Cruelty: Masochism (the best way to ruin a human is by planting the seed of distruction in its soul so that it finishes the job itself)
Domination: Hegemony (the wilfull self-subjugation of one creature before another, cultivated through propaganda, education and so on rather than physical force)
Darkness: (self-)Deception (maybe should go in Insanity)
Insanity: Fantasy
Maybe seeing a pattern here?
Perhaps Contagion and Famine can go in the category of Misfortune, and Tragedy can be be structured to apply more to the emotional elements of disaster, such as self-pity and desperation. Also, do you need the pantheons to not overlap? I imagine a great deal of demonic infighting (and subsequent plot-fodder) could result from pantheons with overlapping spheres, such as Conceit and Greed conflicting over the subdomain of selfishness, or Fear and Frailty each demanding that the other submit itself as they both can be construed as following from one-another. Heck, the ones I suggested above could all go under Self-Destruction or something.
Well you could go with the classic 7 - Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride - add in a few others that can't be a easily lumped in such as Damnation, Chaos, Pestilence, fear and cowardice and I think you'd have a pretty good pantheon :)
I use to incorporate a fun little quintet of goddesses who together formed the death pantheon. I had a goddess of war, hatred, vengeance, battle, death (not "the dead" - death; there was a seperate god of the dead). The goddess of hatred was their leader and together they use to incite a crapload of problems in the world. Then again, strife was their thing. So for ideas...
Hatred
War
Death
Vengeance
Battle
Strife
Chaos
Darkness
Ignorance
Pride
Envy
Treason (depending on the viewpoint of the faith - after all, this is really what Satan is in christianity)
Destruction
Decay
Retribution
Rage
Monsters (in general and not of the kind people like to feel sorry for)
Forbidden Knowledge
Just what you want ot demonize really depends on the culture, though. Satan was sort of a God of Treason as cast by Dante, and he was demonized. By that same logic, the forebarers of the US would be demonic, too, since they committed treason to form our country. In a society where eating pork is evil, some sort of pork-eating demon might be appropriate. So in order to give better suggestions, I'd need more information.
While I'm not an American or a Christian, I think that American Christians would argue that while Satan was rebelling against an omnipotent embodiment of ultimate goodness and authority, unquestionable in its divinity, the founding fathers were rebelling against the unjust soverereignty of men. I agree that culture greatly shapes our views of what is or isn't evil, I'm just being annoying.
Yup, you are. But if you read Dante, he viewed it as anyone who commits treason is akin to the devil and earns themselves a permanent seat in his eternally chewing maw.
Also, you'd find that most American Christians are not very Christian and don't have a clue exactly what they believe. They're sort of like trained hampsters who stomp their feet whenever they're told but never know why.
QuoteAlso, you'd find that most American Christians are not very Christian and don't have a clue exactly what they believe. They're sort of like trained hampsters who stomp their feet whenever they're told but never know why.
You know, there are some of those hamsters on these forums...
Quote from: Tandem PantsPleasure: Narcosis (may or may not be distinct from Addiction; applies specifically to self-stupefication through indulgence)
Cruelty: Masochism (the best way to ruin a human is by planting the seed of distruction in its soul so that it finishes the job itself)
Domination: Hegemony (the wilfull self-subjugation of one creature before another, cultivated through propaganda, education and so on rather than physical force)
Darkness: (self-)Deception (maybe should go in Insanity)
Insanity: Fantasy
Maybe seeing a pattern here?
Perhaps Contagion and Famine can go in the category of Misfortune, and Tragedy can be be structured to apply more to the emotional elements of disaster, such as self-pity and desperation. Also, do you need the pantheons to not overlap? I imagine a great deal of demonic infighting (and subsequent plot-fodder) could result from pantheons with overlapping spheres, such as Conceit and Greed conflicting over the subdomain of selfishness, or Fear and Frailty each demanding that the other submit itself as they both can be construed as following from one-another. Heck, the ones I suggested above could all go under Self-Destruction or something.
I like your suggestions. Masochism is going in right away under (now that I think about it I am not sure). Once I get the major spheres set then it will become clearer. As you were suggesting, I am making Tragedy a more personal form of Misfortune (which is what Frailty was supposed to be). However, Frailty and Tragedy could have a demon child whose sole sphere of influence is Drowning. I also added a new sphere last night called Denial. That is very similar to Self-Deception, as you pointed out.
The beauty (if you want to call it that) of this pantheon is that once I get it all situated I can insert any demon for any human ailment. Yesterday I was tweaking the line-up, and it dawned on me to make a family tree, because Desire could just as easily fit under Beauty and Greed. So Desire is the spawn of Beauty and Greed. So this answers your question about overlapping spheres. They most certainly do, and there is serious infighting amongst most of the demons.
The Divine powers of the world are opposed to the Demonic powers that seek to destroy it. Gods need the worship of humanity in order to exist and have earthly power, and demons want the souls of man in order to end this cycle and therefore the world. The more souls a demon reaps the more powerful they become. The fight over humanity's souls is fierce.
There are a limitless number of demons in this Pantheon, and I couldn't possibly flesh them all out. If I can lay the foundation with most of the ones that I have here, then if I ever need a demon of a particular type all I have to do is figure out who the mother and father might be (I use the gender specific terms very loosely).
This is what I know so far:
Asta Luria: The primal goddess who is hellbent (literally) on destroying the world after she makes humanity suffer. There is a post further down with the explanation about why this is.
Her godly children: Usa, Utan*, Umot, Thopal, & Gbaji.
*Utan was slain by the Younger God Eradon, but he remains as the God of the Undead.
Fallen Gods: The Surot and Theva.
Her Grandchildren: Craithia (Daughter of Usa and Umot), so far.
Demonkind:
Demon Lords: The demons in control of Oblivion, Chaos, Destruction, etc. These are the really big ones.
Major Demons: Demons in control of middle spheres such as Tragedy, Violence, and Insanity. Some of these could be considered major spheres, but most are limited in their scope.
Minor Demons: In charge of specific or weaker forms of major spheres such as Drowning, Murder, Delusion, etc.
Once I get the family tree going their relationships will become a lot clearer. For instance, if Destruction (a Demon Lord) and Violence (a major demon) mated and gave birth to Murder, then Murder would be more powerful than a child of Tragedy and Violence (both major demons) controlling Abuse.
After I get them aligned I can also figure out how many Orders there are, e.g. a demon of the first Order would be a Demon Lord, etc. Right now there seems to be 28 including Asta Luria at the top, 4 levels of godly entities, and 4 levels of 4, 5, 6, and 7 layers depending on what level their parents are. That'll become clearer once I get the family tree going. By the way, do you know of a good free flowchart program that I could use to create a family tree? I might use GIMP to create one.
If you have any ideas who the Demon Lords might be let me know. So far, I have tapped Beauty, Chaos, Darkness, Destruction, Domination, Oblivion, and Perversity. All of the other major spheres are closer to the control of humanity itself, e.g. Violence, War, Love, Vengeance, etc. As I noted before, the Undead are the purview of the dead god Utan (although he is called Natu now).
Quote from: Elemental_ElfWell you could go with the classic 7 - Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride - add in a few others that can't be a easily lumped in such as Damnation, Chaos, Pestilence, fear and cowardice and I think you'd have a pretty good pantheon :)
If you want to avoid my spiel in the middle, then just read the bold text. Sorry about that. I get carried away, a lot.There was a time when there were 7 known demonic powers, but when I realized there were 7 deadly sins I decided to change that number. I didn't want a direct correlation being drawn between the two. The 7 sins are certainly represented. That is actually what prompted all of this rigmarole.
What would be taboo in one culture might be widely accepted by another. The religions and cultures are so myriad that I really don't have an answer for that, yet. Suffice it to say that Divine power (Children of Etheb) and Demonic power (Children of Asta Luria) are opposed, and that is enough. I could just tell you that, but what fun would that be.
There are 4 Primal Gods. All power comes from them to include everything in existence including matter, energy, spirit, and even thought. Asta Luria is Etheb's wife and Orum's sister. Etheb is Asta Luria's husband. Orum is Feda's husband and Asta Luria's brother. Feda is Orum's wife.
The world, called Arsk, was created by Orum at the behest of Etheb, supposedly as a gift for Etheb's wife, Asta Luria. Instead, Etheb gave Arsk to Feda. Feda accepted the gift and lay with Etheb. When Asta Luria found out she became enraged and swore to destroy this fabulous new gift along with the two of them.
Orum and Feda have both turned their backs on Arsk. Etheb and Asta Luria fight over humanity and thus control of Arsk.
Orum: Creator of the world. His essence flows thru it. He is the source of godless wizardly magic.
Feda: Arsk was given to her. She is the source of Nature and all of Elvenkind.
Etheb: He is the source of all Divine magic. His children, with Feda, are the gods of humanity. His gods live on the plane of Etheb.
Asta Luria: She is the source of all demonic magic. She endeavors to reap the souls of humanity and thus destroy the world. She, and her children, live on the plane of Argul. Demonic magic is called Argulite Magic or the Lusharite Way (after the demon worshipping Lusharite Empire whose symbol was the demonic red moon Lushar).
The Children of Etheb (the gods) require human worship in order to exist and have power. The souls that come to them either ascend or are returned to earth. This creates a cycle of power for the gods, and it gives them life. Demons seek to reap the souls of man in order to make them suffer and to ultimately break this cycle and control the world. Once they have control of Arsk they can destroy it and ultimately all associated with it. Orum and Feda are not players in this game, but Etheb and Asta Luria are consciously waging war in Arsk. Those of divine blood (including some demons) can walk the earth, but they very very rarely do so. Demons must be brought to Arsk via Gates, summons, possession, etc. Those demons with divine blood (from Orum, Etheb, or Feda) can reside upon the earth for limited times.
To say that a demon that eats pork, as you suggested, might be seen as more nefarious than any other demon is inconsequential. Anyone opposed to demonic magic is going to see any demon as a fundamental threat. This is not a struggle between ethos's. It is an actual physical, and spiritual, confrontation.
Quote from: Stargate525QuoteAlso, you'd find that most American Christians are not very Christian and don't have a clue exactly what they believe. They're sort of like trained hampsters who stomp their feet whenever they're told but never know why.
You know, there are some of those hamsters on these forums...
I am a citizen of the United States, I am not a Christian, and I like hamsters. That is as deep into this discussion as I am going to get. It was never my intention to start a religious debate. I used to be a bartender, and I know how volatile they can be.
I find it a bit wrong that you've combined the more pragmatic and real threat of the demons with what sounds like a classical greek-ish family conflict. It takes off some of the edge. It's like you want Asta Luria to be perceived as human and non-human/demonic at the same time. Greek gods are more like super-human while demons are, in my mind, inherently more alien. If i were you i would change the family conflict into something a bit more esoteric or symbolic. But this is mostly a question of taste to be fair.
I have to agree with Cataclysmic Crow on this. The more human the demons are, the easier they are to relate to, and the less scary they become. Frex, an angry lioness attacking a person is scary, but not as much if that person was poking her cubs. Suddenly, the lioness stops being a giant, marauding beast and is doing what any human mother would do - protecting her children.
Introducing relationships between demons in this manner runs the risk of mitigating their fear factor. IF that is what you want, then by all means go for it. If not, you might wish to reconsider this approach. Personally, I'd think the embodiment of sadism should probably be as inhuman as possible, but that's only my take.
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowI find it a bit wrong that you've combined the more pragmatic and real threat of the demons with what sounds like a classical greek-ish family conflict. It takes off some of the edge. It's like you want Asta Luria to be perceived as human and non-human/demonic at the same time. Greek gods are more like super-human while demons are, in my mind, inherently more alien. If i were you i would change the family conflict into something a bit more esoteric or symbolic. But this is mostly a question of taste to be fair.
I agree. However, I may need to clarify some things. Asta Luria, as a Primal God, is completely unknown to humanity. All they know of her is what her "children" do to them, but even then they don't realize it is her. Aside from that, Asta Luria has become twisted with loathing and pouring her essence into her "creations". She is by no means "human".
I just started working on the family tree, and aside from the upper tier demons with direct ties to the Primal Gods (i.e. Usa, Utan, Umot, Mongir, Mortume, and Gbaji) and fallen Elder Gods (i.e. Theva and Abathe (after being transformed into the bestial Surot)) there is no resemblance to humans. Each of these entities are decidedly non-human. For instance, Guz is a semi-consistent blob of goo with hundreds of working mouths of various shapes and sizes (yes, it is inspired by the Gibbering Mouther from Hidden Shrine of Tomoachan). Zapetec is somewhat human looking, but he is blue, 15' tall, has two tails, and has gold "accoutrements" that are a part of his body. Even Gbaji, listed above, is a relatively normal looking fat infant, but her teeth, nails, hair, and eyes are solid pitch black.
In reference to the human-like family tree, it is a tool for me, the GM, to better understand the hierarchy and the paths a Demonologist would have to take to reach the more powerful demons. Under normal circumstances a Demonologist contacts lesser demons, and over time and through discovery, whether from summoned demons or other sources, the Demonologist is able to contact increasingly more powerful entities. So, if the Demonologist had created a working relationship with the demon dedicated to Murder the next logical step would be Hatred, Vengeance, or Violence. Moving up to Beauty, Insanity, or Contagion would make little sense. Also, by knowing what higher powers are associated with the lesser demon it gives me a better idea what components, how much ritual time, what sort of bargaining/threats work with said demon by combining the elements from all levels. This keeps me from having to create unique ritual requirements from scratch for each individual demon.
Finally, what you see is the GM knowledge of Demonkind. In Arsk, Demonology is only 700 years old (since the ancient Nedarians arrived and began eldritch preparations that would result in the Lusharite Empire). This knowledge of demons, even at its height, was sketchy. The denizens of Argul want it that way. Their True Names are guarded, and they prefer that their lesser minions handle the actual contact. To top it off, the Lusharite Empire has since collapsed, and the tomes, and other forms of information, that contained the knowledge have been left in the ruins of Nedar (the homeland of the Empire), scattered amongst fugitive Nedarians, stolen by former servants and apprentices, spirited away to the Nedarians hiding place on the island of Chi Darra, or taken by religious organizations and guarded since the items could not be destroyed. The sketchy information is now divided and hidden in the far corners of the earth. So each Demonologist in question has little working knowledge of the practices and pitfalls of their endeavors. They must learn by trial and error (with few individual exceptions and the people of Chi Darra notwithstanding). Even after all of that you have religious organizations and sensible people worldwide working to destroy, thwart, and punish would-be Demonologists, with very few exceptions.
That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. You are absolutely right that demons would ideally be esoteric and alien in their behavior and design. The best part for me is the creation of the individual demon. So, the demon controlling Contagion might be Hecha, Ratherder, Herald of the 7 Fevers, the Blighted One, a two-headed black rat-man with patches of missing fur, one blind eye, bulbous masses all over its body, three tails, that carries with it many pouches bursting at the seams with vials of all sorts of wickedness and wears a tattered and molding grey cloak. It would not be called Contagion. Even then, I haven't mentioned the demon creatures that have been unleashed on the world by breeding demons with the fallen god Surot. That is the source of many of the otherworldly monsters in the world, i.e. manticores, wyverns, oora snakes, vroats, the Granguar, minotaurs, etc. So, what little humanity knows of demons and their machinations is decidedly alien and mysterious.
Quote from: Raven BloodmoonI have to agree with Cataclysmic Crow on this. The more human the demons are, the easier they are to relate to, and the less scary they become. Frex, an angry lioness attacking a person is scary, but not as much if that person was poking her cubs. Suddenly, the lioness stops being a giant, marauding beast and is doing what any human mother would do - protecting her children.
Introducing relationships between demons in this manner runs the risk of mitigating their fear factor. IF that is what you want, then by all means go for it. If not, you might wish to reconsider this approach. Personally, I'd think the embodiment of sadism should probably be as inhuman as possible, but that's only my take.
I agree wholeheartedly, see above.
Hmm, if a demon appears rat-like it also seems to make sense that rats are somehow material children or manifestations of his otherworldly presence. Or do they take shapes based on human conceptions? That is, does he look like a rat because humans associate rats with plague and contagion and he is a divine or symbolical entity representing those two concepts?
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowHmm, if a demon appears rat-like it also seems to make sense that rats are somehow material children or manifestations of his otherworldly presence. Or do they take shapes based on human conceptions? That is, does he look like a rat because humans associate rats with plague and contagion and he is a divine or symbolical entity representing those two concepts?
It would be have to do with human conception, somewhat. I am thinking this thru as I type. The demonkind, like the gods, are...I am going to take a smoke break, and think this thru. Be right back...The gods often take the form that their worshippers hold firm to in order to promote fidelity and consistency in their religion. Demonkind doesn't work the same. They choose their form, but like everything in Argul it comes out twisted. The form of the rat was chosen for a purpose. Humans have a natural, or learned, aversion to rats, and most people fear them. The form is used for that purpose. Hecha, the Ratherder, is a demonic Vassal so it could reasonably be summoned to the real world.
So, demons forms are chosen and serve a purpose. Thus, the rat demon of contagion. In reality I made the connection between the plague and rats, but that's a good an explanation as any, I suppose.
Conincidentally, I have chosen to keep the Hecha description for Contagion with a two minor changes. It wears robes and not a cloak, and one of the two heads is dead.
I have been working on a family tree. It's a work in progress, but it should give you an idea of where I'm headed with all of this.
EDIT: The Demonic Minions section should be called Demonic Citizenry. I know it's a crappy name, but I am working on it. The Demonic Minions line of information at the bottom is the actual Demonic Minions.
File: 1238367547_539_FT65412_argulite_family_tree.zip (//../../e107_files/public/1238367547_539_FT65412_argulite_family_tree.zip)
Can demons pick their own shape then? Could they change it from summoning to summoning?
Perhaps being innately immaterial, they do as Crow says, but just prefer certain shapes? "Usually takes the shape of X but is also depicted as Y and Z occassionally." You see that sort of thing with a lot in archaeology.
Could the form of a summoned demon be based on the nightmares/fears of the summoner, even if the summoner is actually unaware of this?
Quote from: GhostmanCould the form of a summoned demon be based on the nightmares/fears of the summoner, even if the summoner is actually unaware of this?
Sort of like the emohawk in Red Dwarf?
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowCan demons pick their own shape then? Could they change it from summoning to summoning?
Argulite demons are what they are. Their primary forms do not change. That being said, most demons have the ability to alter their form. There are demons walking the earth. Some appear human and hold positions of power, and some appear in a bestial form and haunt particular locations or roam the land.
After the fall of the Lusharite Empire the Nedarians and their demonic lords and minions were hunted. Most of them fled to the remote island of Chi Darra as best they could. Some infiltrated other societies, and a few hid themselves in out the way places.
Those demons that infiltrated other societies took on human forms. Some of them have been in place for years.
Most demons can alter their forms, with the exception of the beasts and minions, and often do when it serves their purposes. Demons are more likely to do this when they are loose upon the world. Demonologists, in general, are not too surprised by how demons appear. It's what they don't see that a Demonologist should fear.
It is possible that rumors of demons would have any one of them represented by a myirad of forms. However, not many people see a demon and survive, and those that do see them often generally aren't very forthcoming with that information. Certainly not on the level required to turn it into public knowledge. General speculation would, more than likely, depict demons in several forms, but they could be representations of several nameless demons or pure speculation.
So they have a standard shape but can change their apparent shape at will?
Is this effect a direct molding/shaping of their flesh or is it an illusionary/mental effect?
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowSo they have a standard shape but can change their apparent shape at will?
Is this effect a direct molding/shaping of their flesh or is it an illusionary/mental effect?
It goes much deeper than illusion. They actually alter their shape, and they can hold it for a very long time, on earth. They can even go so far as to duplicate, identically, an individual. They have other means of manipulating humanity in the form of possession and when they are bound into demonic items and assume control of the bearer. Exposing themselves, even in another form, would either be a last resort or part of a major undertaking.
They always mainatain their primary form while in Argul. See Hecha above. They may also assume their natural forms while on earth, but not necessarily.