I'm looking to model a fantasy economy properly (potentially using econometrics) in order to create a campaign equipment price list that actually makes sense, rather than just being developed to facilitate gameplay.
I've already looked at the Medieval Sourcebook's Economic Life section (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1j.html) and I am using that as a starting point for my numbers but I need
Math models. Surplus wealth per amount of cultivated land area, how much surplus can each profession generate, etc...
Modifiers for extra ordinary effects. Magic is the biggie but also things like "How does a ruined city full of hard to get to treasure effect the local communities?"
If anyone has any information sources and/or idea that can put my way this would be greatly appreciated.
Here's a very well-written post on the fallacies of a hero-based economy (in games like D&D):
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9483527&postcount=5
Also, the entire thread is worth a read.
Check out Lythia.com for examples. It's for Harnmaster which is probably one of the best Medieval era fantasy campaign settings.
Quote from: IshmaylHere's a very well-written post on the fallacies of a hero-based economy (in games like D&D):
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9483527&postcount=5
Also, the entire thread is worth a read.
Very nifty. I've always wondered how I could actually get an economy going and things of that nature.
M.
Ishmayl.
A very good article. Thanks, it crystallised some ideas I was having and I also think I need to change some of my premises too. Thanks.
Mathus,
What type of game are you planning on running? I had to back off of a lot of very medieval financials once I factored in what real tech/advancement level my game was at including magic.
I liked that article. I suppose it doesn't really apply to a lot of us who are trying to move away from the traditional D&D economic system (or lack thereof) but it does provide good reference to the pitfalls.
Quote from: Lord VreegI had to back off of a lot of very medieval financials once I factored in what real tech/advancement level my game was at including magic.
Interesting. What level do you think it is? I don't think technology level and the maturity of the financial system necessarily have to go together, but, obviously, technology is also a symptom of a developing society, and other aspects will probably develop as well.
Do you have fiat money? A banking system? Is there some sort of "Hawala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala)" system in place?
I checked the "money" section on your wiki and found the "Electrum Standard" bit an interesting read but was looking for more.
Quote from: sparkletwistI liked that article. I suppose it doesn't really apply to a lot of us who are trying to move away from the traditional D&D economic system (or lack thereof) but it does provide good reference to the pitfalls.
Quote from: Lord VreegI had to back off of a lot of very medieval financials once I factored in what real tech/advancement level my game was at including magic.
Interesting. What level do you think it is? I don't think technology level and the maturity of the financial system necessarily have to go together, but, obviously, technology is also a symptom of a developing society, and other aspects will probably develop as well.
Do you have fiat money? A banking system? Is there some sort of "Hawala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala)" system in place?
I checked the "money" section on your wiki and found the "Electrum Standard" bit an interesting read but was looking for more.
I wrote a 2hr email and lost it already. I'm pissed off. I'll need to write this in segments, as I am at work.
Background-wise, when I first started running Celtricia, I was using a much more typical fantasy-based, adventure-cenric, game serving economic system. Gold piece standard, 10-foot pole standard, totally immune to supply and demand and import and export standard.
Then, around 1987 or 87, I started off a typical Vreegian extreme makeover, bipolarizing into a very feudal system dealing with Manorialism, Seigneurialism, and Feudal Serfdom, though I was also looking at the Islamc rennaisance and it's early-but-powerful market-driven economy. I was using our world's development as an unconsious guide at the time, the amount of actual metals in the world, etc...
However, I was stitting on this particular chronological barstool at the same time as when I was drinking my second tenure in college, and a particular psych/anthro class introduced my to the big-picture idesa of Leslie White and his ilk, whose ideas are described in round and plebian terms here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_technology). The rough idea is that development is determined by the ability to harness and use energy, or somewhat by the level of communication derived from the technology. Hmm.
I had already set up a setting where the burgeoning merchant guilds were starting to compete with the power of the church and the state. Folk of common birth were vying for power in plutocracies and representative monarchies (along with 1 republic and a representative mageocracy). SO I slowly realized how unmedieval this was in terms of socio-political development.
The major baffle is, of course, magic. To fit the type of game I wanted to play required me to at first to totally change ganme systems, then to create my own. I needed a population frequency distribution of the presence of magic vs
the actual power of magic that was different from most worlds. Even medium power magic use is very rare (about 1/1000 of the population), but low power and cantrip-level magic were nearly mundane (1/20 of the population).
more coming.
Quote from: Lord VreegI had already set up a setting where the burgeoning merchant guilds were starting to compete with the power of the church and the state. Folk of common birth were vying for power in plutocracies and representative monarchies (along with 1 republic and a representative mageocracy). SO I slowly realized how unmedieval this was in terms of socio-political development.
Oh, yes, it is "unmedieval" and probably not what D&D conceived-- but, let's face it, assigning any sort of "realistic" economics to a typical D&D setting (or even a rather atypical D&D setting that still follows many of its basic conventions) is a proposition doomed to fail. Since you've dubbed your world the "world of factions" something based on all sorts of conniving merchant guilds seems far more appropriate anyway. ;)
So, in between answering 170 emails today...
So this is why magic matters so much. I was already using the magic of the system to explain some of the developments, but once I started really understanding this, it colored how I saw everything.
AS I said,
"The major baffle is, of course, magic. To fit the type of game I wanted to play required me to at first to totally change ganme systems, then to create my own. I needed a population frequency distribution of the presence of magic vs
the actual power of magic that was different from most worlds. Even medium power magic use is very rare (about 1/1000 of the population), but low power and cantrip-level magic were nearly mundane (1/20 of the population"
And there was also ritual magic (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/Ritual+Magic), which allows lower power casters to spend a lot of time using proscribed rituals and a LOT more time to cast magic, Celtrician Scrolls (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/Scrolls), and other artificed items.
[ic=From the Frontpage]
To call Celtricia merely a 'medieval setting' would be inelegant. The Countries of Trabler and the Bright Lands might be best compared to the Dutch Republic as it moved towards its zenith, with the strong local governments and the plutocratic emphasis. Gunpowder has not been created due to the availability of magic. This availability eventually created a fairly modern approach to trade, fully backed by insurance, speculation, guilds and even corporations recently. The Grey March may feature the public wearing of togas, but their enlightened republic, complete with seperate powers of elected Consuls, the Courts of Reason and freedom of religion with emphasis on the rights and responsibilites of the individual, has nothing to do with medieval Europe. So while technology as we view it on Earth is little advanced in Celtricia, magic has advanced far enough that culture, philosophy, communication, monetary policy and political science would be more analogous to our later Age of Enlightenment.[/ic]
Much of the spell creation in Celtricia has been done partially or totally with the idea of the logical effect on the economic sphere of the setting. There are three Air spells designed purely to move waterborne vessels faster and without risk of becoming becalmed, earth cantrips to test for counterfeit and later, earth spells to increase the growth and quality of the harvests, Animist spells to scare of predators, and of course healing magics that extend and improve the life of citizenry. And I have not even mentioned the Bard Broadcasting Network, which only has 6 capable broasdcasters in Igbar, for example, but has 3 dozen scrying pools that have access to recieve such. Magic has a dramatic affect on the amount of energy outputted and the level of communication, at least in Celtricia.
So as Sparkletwist mentioned, I eventually settled on the Electrum Standard (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/what+money+can+buy), as that is the amount of money paid for a day's unskilled or menial labor. There are local moneylenders and advisors, but almost all of them are underwritten and their writ value ensured through the Bank of Stenron, the Collegium Arcana, The Platform of Trade (the Church of Ogliec), the Bank of the Inn, or the Grey Bank of Tralm.
The Banking system allows Writs of worth, which are used heavily by 'members' of a particular bank or institution. Larger banks, especially the five main international ones, have less privileges, as those who have accounts their have access in more areas, but smaller banks and lenders compensate by actually offering some interest-bearing options. Writs of worth came into use about three hundred years ago in the Bright Lands Plutocracy. While coinage is still used for most small and medium sized transactions, Writs of worth are written for certain amounts, ensured by the writer, complete with a date of expiration.
So for my use, prices and costs (Since Mathus DID start this mentioning an equipment price list) were based on the electrum Standard, and that a menial laborer makes 6-7 of them in the eight day Hawaak (as most work 5-6 days). However, 5 times that amount is still considered lower income, and what I would term the middle class has nothing to do with the population density, but a much more modern idea of property ownership, and only 4-5% of the celtrician population actually owns land.
So while this long-winded diatribe may not actually answer Mathus, maybe it will help by way of listing other factors that affect the economy and the prices that things might cost. I am copying over the page Sparkletwist mentioned, as it contains some prices and how much some people make.
[spoiler=Reprinted from the Electrum Standard Page]
The Igbarian New Legion recently found 945 Argussian Silver Feng, 805 Silver Brightlands Silver hands, 630 Brightland Electrum Hands, 170 Argussian Gold Erat. There was a silver braided belt with a wolf's head belt buckle (we 5, wo 95GP, Argussian Fenris Traders circa 755RON, +10%lorecheck), Blacksteel francisca (masterwork, +1 damage before divider, we 75, wo 650GP), arrayed around the tattered black velvet in the Klaxik Wight's tomb.
OK. Great. What does this mean in terms of the world at large? What will it allow the players to do? Why do players plunder? What is it for?
One of the ultimate signs of a deeper game is when the adventuring of a group has an economic effect. Looking to our ancient Greece, Xenophon lay the foundation for a division of labor and economies of scale. In Celtricia the precepts of Hugon Zwentiee (Omwo~, -1755 RON) of Silverwood are still read. They contain in that bookdefence and child-rearing are crucial monetarty priorites for a civilized ruler, and the morality of money.
The Electrum Standard
How is money used and played in Celtricia? What is common to find, what types of coins and how are transactions handled?
The northern celtrican cradle is based on the Electrum standard, in that an unskilled villein's work is worth an electrum coin per day. In a city like Igbar, the electrum standard still holds true. Igbarian Drafted soldiers are recompensed an electrum goodwife a day, as well.
So, in terms of the electrum standard,
100 Copper Strips=
10 Silver Children=
1 Electrum Goodwife=
1/2 Gold Horn=
1/10 Platinum Unicorn.
Now, the Scarlet Pilum's Militia pay their beginning recruits 13 silver children a day, and a buck seargent makes 5 Goodwives a day. There is no tax on income in Trabler of the Grey March, so I always use a rule of thumb for income only think of an electrum as being 50 american dollars. It's 6.25 per hour in todays world (literally..50 dollars a day, *5 days, *52 weeks is 13k per year. 250 for a week/40 hours is 6.25). It is also very important that the normal Celtrician Work week is 5.5 days in town of the 8 day hawaak, though that is for the upper working class. Business owners and blue collar workers put in 7 out of 8 days (reserving Fastak only), and the truly poor of course work everyday.
So the most common coin in the Northern Celtrician are is the electrum goodwife, followed by the silver Child, followed by the Gold Horn, followed by the copper Strip. Bars, restaurants, and most normal businesses use Electrum Goodwives and Silver Children almost exclusively. Though I still price things in my head automatically in gold, I have gotten better at responding to all price inquiries in terms of Goodwives, when they are speaking to a merchant. After once glass of wine too many, it gets hard, but answering that 'a new suit of Studded Leather will cost a hundred Goodwives, less 19 goodwives for the ripped-up old suit you are trading in' is the way to go.
It also important to take a partially medieval, partially gilded age approach to money, in that there is a tremendous range of incomes, a tremendous range of prices, and a lot of people trying to make money. At first glance, those two time periods are far apart, but the cradle area of Celtricia has a huge lower and lower middle class, a new and growing middle class, but still, 95% of the wealth of the world is placed in 1% of the population.
There are flophouses in Igbar, places where a bed is paid for by the night, where they pack 6-10 beds in a room and charge between 5 copper strips and a silver child per bed per night. A crappy room rented for a hawwak (the eight day week) near the docks will be a 10-15 Silver children for the week (1-1.5 electrum goodwives).
A decent Teque Guild Inn rents rooms (with 2 beds) for 5-10 silver Children per night, Hostem's House of Hospitality has rooms from one to seven Goodwives a night, and the Upper Crust's room rates are between ten and forty goodwives a night.
Renting a small apartment for the 60 day month in a poor section of town will be 30-40 Goodwives. A middle level apartment would be 50-75 goodwives for the same period. Renting a $2500-$5000 a month luxury apartment would be 100-200 goodwives per 60 day month.
How much does a backpack cost? A decent one runs 1-2 goodwives.
A Tunic? A basic homespun cloth one is 2 silver children, a nice one in a shop maybe 4-7 silver children. Nicer cloth or embroidery will be 5-12 silver children. Silk or Samite? Now we are talking the same range, but in Goodwives. Sharma's Dresssmakers, part of the Vissippe Trading guild, can get 40+ Goodwives for a dress.
Property is huge. Owning (deeded) property is gigantic. Buying an acre of farmland in Igtiche (the farming community just outside of Igbar) runs about 1000 Goodwives, though property is normally done in Gold Horn or in Writs of Worth ensured by one of the banks, so it would be 500 horn. With a little farmhouse, maybe 1000 Horn, though these do not count the administrative fees and bribes. A two-story house in Igbar would run between 4000 and 10000 gold horn. That would be the equivalent of buying a brownstone today.
Adventuring costs a ton. Magic and artificed items cost a fortune, since they are rare, and are normally handled in Gold Horn or by Writ. It is all based on the cost of the spell. Buying a casting only scroll costs normally 25 gold horn(50 electrum Goodwives) a spell point, and a learning scroll will cost approximately 35 gold horn (70 electrum Goodwives per point). Cantrips have 5-10 total spell points, so that should give some idea why magic is where the cast is at. Brother's cure (cures 2-7, can be used once per hawaak) has a total cost of 15 spell points, which means 400 gold horn for a casting scroll, or 525 gold horn for a learning scroll.
Potions have the same effect as scrolls, only since anyone can use them, they cost 50 gold horn per spellpoint cost. A potion of Brother's Cure would cost 750 gold Horn, if there is anyplace selling. And this is the most common type of potion. Please notate that the cost is comparable to an acre of farmland...[/spoiler]
I wrote this over a few hours, sorry if it wanders...
[blockquote=ST]Oh, yes, it is "unmedieval" and probably not what D&D conceived-- but, let's face it, assigning any sort of "realistic" economics to a typical D&D setting (or even a rather atypical D&D setting that still follows many of its basic conventions) is a proposition doomed to fail. Since you've dubbed your world the "world of factions" something based on all sorts of conniving merchant guilds seems far more appropriate anyway.[/blockquote]
Good and fair point. Big point is that I realized I wasn't gaming in Medieval Eurpope...not even close...and if people can cure the sick, communicate across long distances, possibly fly...this replicates rpetty well the effects of technology, and has to be taken into account.
Some good information here and thank you very much for it. I think though I need to describe the scope of what I am aiming for a bit better.
I'm trying to set up a long term economic simulation across a pre-defined map with climate regions starting at hunter gatherer and ending with the eventual end point of something akin to the early medieval period in Western Europe (not all regions of the game world will get that far of course).
As resources are consumed, groups of people will either: increase their ability to exploit what they have (technology 'upgrade'), migrate, join together or have a war over the limited resources.
I need:
Suitable effectiveness modifiers for a set of technology levels (hunter/gatherer, herder, farmer, irrigation farmer, specialist farmer, trader, sail capable, bureaucracy, Mesopotamian[think Sumer), feudal etc...)
How much food is required to support one human per year? (With age modifiers too, infant/child/adult/elder)
How much food can a given land area provide? (Including factors for climate and technology level to exploit the land)
How much surplus food wealth can be stored per year for a given technology level? What is the decay rate of that wealth? (I realise it may not actually be food that is stored)
How much food wealth in necessary to support non-food activities? (Technology advancement, agricultural improvements, smithing, mining, building etc...)
How much food wealth is necessary to support a given magical technology uplift? (Treating magic as a technological improvement is the easiest way to model its effect on a civilisation I think)
And lastly but by no means least, cheering on because damn if this isn't going to be a big project
I'll probably be using either a stupidly complex Excel spreadsheet for this or I'll program something to run the simulation (probably Java for those who might be interested).
I expect the simulation to run for several thousand years and result in a set of civilisations a differing technological levels (I'm including magical knowledge in that too).
Any thoughts? (Other than, "This guy's crazy!?")
Ultimately each area in a 'civilisation' will have a price list for things players can buy and the DM will have an economic history of the world.
Seems like a terrible amount of work to code such a program when you could probably create a reasonably plausible model by improvising. It's not like a fantasy setting is likely to be put under thorough inspection by economists.
Question for you budding economists.
At what point does a realistic depiction of different national currencies become more of a hassle than an immersive experience?
Quote from: MathusI need:
relative[/i] differences between those groups - more advanced farmers will be able to have denser populations than other farmers, who will in turn be able to have denser populations than hunter-gatherers.
If, however, you're set on it, I'll answer what I can.
QuoteSuitable effectiveness modifiers for a set of technology levels (hunter/gatherer, herder, farmer, irrigation farmer, specialist farmer, trader, sail capable, bureaucracy, Mesopotamian[think Sumer), feudal etc...)[/list]
How much food can a given land area provide? (Including factors for climate and technology level to exploit the land)
Jack Harlan[/b], a geneticist and botanist who did a lot of ground-breaking work on the beginnings of neolithic agriculture and the productive capacity of einkorn wheat, the "wild" wheat that neolithic peoples would have gathered. He did experiments in eastern Turkey involving wheat-gathering with neolithic tools, estimating the efficiency of his efforts in kcal and hours of labor. Unfortunately, his stuff is mostly in academic journals, so if you don't have access to a college library it might require some pretty dedicated internet trawling. I remember the gist of the experiments, but as you seem to want concrete numbers, you'd better go straight to the source.
QuoteHow much food is required to support one human per year? (With age modifiers too, infant/child/adult/elder)
How much food wealth in necessary to support non-food activities? (Technology advancement, agricultural improvements, smithing, mining, building etc...)
[/quote]week[/i], to get all the food they need. Hunter-gatherer societies have plenty of food, and could easily gather many times what they actually needed if there was any point to it. If the development of advanced technology was merely the result of a food surplus, hunter-gatherers would be the most advanced people on the planet today, as gathering is considerably more efficient than agriculture (even
modern agriculture).
Rather, the development of these technologies depends on other factors - urbanization (which many believe to have come
before agriculture during the neolithic) being first among them. Of course, people need to not be starving in order to invent, teach, innovate, and so on, but there is no graph of "food wealth versus technological advancement" that you could use to judge which societies should know iron-working and which shouldn't. Ancient Egypt had some of the best agricultural land in the greater middle eastern region, but that didn't stop it from developing the use of bronze and iron hundreds of years later than societies in the Levant and Mesopotamia.
QuoteAnd lastly but by no means least, cheering on because damn if this isn't going to be a big project
Good luck - just be certain that you need this level of detail before you go diving in!
I thought I'd give an update to how I'm doing with this econometrics project.
Even with the most simple models it's suprising but non-food activities are made possible by three things, communication, food distribution and food preservation, that's it. If a societies food preservation and/or ability to distribute it improves then so does the society's 'technology level'.
I means that do have a 'standard' D&D economy the technological development is actually around the level of the Tudors in England not Norman Britain, which was surprising to me.
More work to come...
Quote from: MathusI thought I'd give an update to how I'm doing with this econometrics project.
Even with the most simple models it's suprising but non-food activities are made possible by three things, communication, food distribution and food preservation, that's it. If a societies food preservation and/or ability to distribute it improves then so does the society's 'technology level'.
I means that do have a 'standard' D&D economy the technological development is actually around the level of the Tudors in England not Norman Britain, which was surprising to me.
More work to come...
Exactly my earlier point about magic and tech level, but in reverse. Keep up the reports.