Figured I might as well put this in its own thread since the conversation is continuing on pretty steadily in the tavern.
It seems that in most games any martial arts are lumped in under a monk class or a generic hand to hand combat skill. Yet there are so many forms of martial art in real life and indeed many aspects of these arts that can be used outside combat. I am currently taking Aikido and so have been given a glimpse into what could make a very interesting addition to roleplay where it has previously been largely glossed over.
Just taking Aikido as an example you get these potential skills to pull from:
Ukemi: The art of taking a fall without getting hurt. Skillful use of Ukemi can greatly reduce the damage to the body resulting from falling or being forcefully thrown. As an example my teacher tells a story of how one of his previous students was in a car accident in which he was ejected through the windshield and went reflexively into a forward roll. After quite a few forward rolls he stood up, almost completely unharmed.
Ki Extension: Extension of Ki is an important part of Aikido. It is easy in that Ki is something that naturally extends, you don't have to make it do that. What you do have to do is learn how to ride this extension, thus enabling you to perform Aikido. Using Ki requires concentration. The average person can concentrate in this way for about 2 seconds. The training in Aikido helps to extend this concentration as it is necessary in order to throw, pin, or do anything else utilizing the art. Someone skilled in this can not only perform aikido efficiently, but can concentrate on everyday things better. In a fantasy aspect this would enable a greater resistance to mental attacks. Additionally the use of Ki to unify mind and body enable fascinating feats of seeming strength that in fact require no strength at all (moving 2 or more people around who are holding onto you; either walking around with them, sitting down or standing up with them, or generally forcing them to follow you around as long as they hold on).
Aikido Techniques: These are a collection of various forms used to throw or pin an attacker. These make the martial aspect of the art. Aikido is different in that it shuns forceful attacks and instead blends with the opponents attacks, using their own strength against them. Indeed the more force an enemy uses against an aikido user, the harder they can be thrown.
Randori: A technique of its own, Randori deals with fighting multiple opponents at once and requires quick movements and great skill in application of aikido as just one slip up can leave you open to attack from any number of directions.
I would love to explore other martial arts in this aspect as I think it would be wonderful to expand on the "monk" class and its variants beyond just the rough form that currently exists. If anyone here happens to be knowledgeable of a martial art I would love to hear your take on it and how you might try to integrate it into roleplay. Even if you don't I would love to hear from you on if you think it would be interesting to explore martial arts more in depth than just the default form currently found. In other words would you enjoy playing a character that could use these inside and outside of combat.
You use martial arts all the time in RPG's...sword fighting, axe fighting, etc are all amongst the Arts of Mars. Your Aikido is very similar to my Ringen, even.
If you mean specific hand to hand stuff, I think since most RPG's have a kind of "abstract" view of combat, it might not work so hot. I wish you luck, though.
M.
Quote from: CheomeshYou use martial arts all the time in RPG's...sword fighting, axe fighting, etc are all amongst the Arts of Mars. Your Aikido is very similar to my Ringen, even.
If you mean specific hand to hand stuff, I think since most RPG's have a kind of "abstract" view of combat, it might not work so hot. I wish you luck, though.
M.
I think we both know what I mean when I say martial art :P
Please explain what this Ringen thing is, I am a bit curious as to what it is about. As to the abstractness I know about that in fact I looked it over before I considered talking about this. In DnD terms for example martial arts could take part as feat trees. Meanwhile a game like celtricia could have skill trees that handle them.
I did try something similar, where I took the "fighter" and gave him combat oriented class abilities that were glorified longsword maneuvers.
Ringen is European wrestling, with emphasis on trips, throws and joint locks. It is the heart of medieval martial arts, as principals from it show up in all weapon arts from the humble messer to the honorable longsword.
Here's a small example of the Twirch Ringen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvkPLvoH1vI&feature=channel_page
M.
Quote from: CheomeshHere's a small example of the Twirch Ringen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvkPLvoH1vI&feature=channel_page
That was so friggin' COOL! :D (The music really helps.)
One thing I'd have to say is that if you just saw the moves being demonstrated there'd be many people who after seeing that would have no idea that it was a European martial art.
If you liked that, they have a bunch of others for a variety of other weapons in their youtube page.
And you would be surprised how many people are unaware there were any martial arts in the middle ages at all ;)
M.
Very awesome cheo, I would have to agree with SCMP in that if someone without the knowledge saw that they would probably think it was an eastern martial art.
Anyhow here's some Aikido demonstrations by Tohei Sensei (the founder of Ki Aikido/Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido):
Aikido (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kpgQ4hupYQ)
Martial arts in roleplaying needs to be done very carefully... a lot of people won't understand the reality behind most forms and what they actually allow you to achieve. Lots of individuals will perceive them as simply different ways to fight, and in a heavily combat-oriented game such as D&D it's easy to fall down that slope. They as a feat tree might be more appropriate if they give bonuses to skills and traits, or extra actions you can take in or out of combat that won't necessarily improve damage or attack ability but will allow better passive stats.
There will be of course some arts where its users have at least some proficiency in disarming or dealing with armed opponents in hand-to-hand. The biggest problem here is that if this part is done the wrong way all of a sudden you have people pulling a DBZ thing. You could look at it in combat the same way Star Wars Saga does with its melee fighting feats... they increase your unarmed damage and reflex defenses, but even if you're at the highest grade of this feat tree you still don't want to get caught against an opponent who's at a distance with a blaster or has a weapon with a significant advantage over your hands such as the dreaded lightsaber; you still want to have your own weapon. The only times you're going to actually want to wield the combat techniques are in a place where either an opponent's superior weapons are negated or they have none - something that the potential players should always be reminded of, exceptions aside.
Agreed with Bio. Every system of unarmed has a way to deal with people who are armed, but it's always highly risky. In an abstracted system like most RPG's, it could get hairy if not done right, and you'll have everyone running around unarmed.
M.
I likewise agree. Martial arts should be more than just combat and when used for combat should factor in the possibility of opponents with ranged weapons.
In my Kaidan setting I want to try to include: Karate, Judo, Aikido (at least) as different forms of martial arts available in the setting.
Now Oriental Adventures 3e borrowed from L5R's Rokugan setting. In the rules there are 4 martial arts available. They called the styles by their English Translated Names like Open Hand Style to represent Karate. Most fist blows, one round-about kick then buffs to will and fortitude. So D&D tried to diversify multiple styles of martial arts.
Since my setting is intended for use with Pathfinder RPG, and requires compatibility to 3.5, I don't want to stray too far from what was in OA, yet I might rename then to proper names. Still I want to be somewhat inventive and not just copying OA's martial arts rule system.
Nomadic, if you made Aikido into a 3.5 D&D feat tier, what do you think it should look like? It could only have 6 or 8 feats at most.
GP
We're assuming the designer in question wants to keep the skill of unarmed combat at a reasonably realistic level?
High-powered martial arts do have a place in a suitably mythic setting.
Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawWe're assuming the designer in question wants to keep the skill of unarmed combat at a reasonably realistic level?
High-powered martial arts do have a place in a suitably mythic setting.
I doubt the question would have been asked the same way were his intention to turn his game into an anime or old school kung-fu movie.
Quote from: Gamer PrintshopNomadic, if you made Aikido into a 3.5 D&D feat tier, what do you think it should look like? It could only have 6 or 8 feats at most.
GP
Well obviously the feats should have a focus on the primary aspects of Aikido. I think that you might have tiers going from basic to advanced. Basic would include things like Ki Extension (plus to concentration and/or will saves), Ukemi (less damage from falling/recovery from trips), and Basic Aikido itself (basic grapple bonuses). It would continue up with more and more advanced forms with the top tier stuff including things like randori (bonuses/throws vs multiple opponents) and freedom of movement in grapples.
Check into the D20 martial arts books if you haven't; one of the temples from my setting uses hand to hand, and I too am seeking to make it more interesting for those players than "kick, punch, kick".
That aside, punch and kick are two different weapons in my setting already. Kick just makes the other guy make a reflex save (or dex check, can't recall) or get knocked over.
M.
kicks are also quite a bit more difficult without training. Or at least very unbalancing (as in actual balance, not game balance) without it.
One thing i have always missed in gaming is the in-fight punch. You know, when you watch movies, they usually get to a point where it's difficult to swing the weapon around and so they give the opponent a swift kick or punch in between weapon attacks. But this is hard to implement in d20 as the reasoning behind this is one of range, and d20 is not suited for melee range...
One of those times when unarmed training might come in handy even if you are wielding a weapon.
Also, many martial arts (even karate and the other classical ones) include training in specific weapons; sabers, spears, meteor hammers,rope darts, and wind and fire wheels. I'm no expert, but I'm guessing many of these weapon styles take use of the standard unarmed techniques as well.
Yeah, it is quite difficult. I'm sure any system that does it properly is going to be headache inducing, though :S
M.