Eschaton (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Eschaton)
Strain the Chains of Fate
(http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/images/3/3f/Medhourglass.gif)
[ic]Astolat lay in flames. After the events of the past two days, another civil war must surely impend. But Rudra couldn't bring himself to care. The sea of time cascaded through his mind, the tide of visions almost ceaseless. "I've seen terrible things." He spoke without turning, without facing Prometheus. "The end of the world."
"Even time ends. The world ends in fire or flood, in war and darkness. It is the eschaton."
He could have walked away. He turned, tried to. But Prometheus still had the child cradled in his arms. The last person that truly mattered had died giving birth to that child. Rudra couldn't abandon him. "How do I stop it?"
"Stop it? You are the catalyst that ignites it. History will not be denied."
Rudra felt the hands of fate at his throat. Every step had brought him here. "Oh yes. History is merciless."
[/ic]
[spoiler=Table of Contents]
Main Page (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Eschaton) - overview
Atlas (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Atlas_(Eschaton))Logres (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Logres)[/list]
Valland (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Valland)[/list]
EncyclopediaSpirits (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Spirits_(Eschaton)) - named spirits
Abhijit (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Abhijit)[/list]
Agni (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Agni)[/list]
Bana (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bana)[/list]
Caen (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Caen)[/list]
Diti (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Diti)[/list]
Dhumravati (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Dhumravati)[/list]
Hardual (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Hardual)[/list]
Kroni (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Kroni)[/list]
Nirrta (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Nirrta)[/list]
Nirrti (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Nirrti)[/list]
Prithvi (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Prithvi)[/list]
Sophia (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sophia)[/list]
Theletus (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Theletus)[/list]
People (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=People_(Eschaton)) - people in the setting
Anann (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Anann)[/list]
Arcturus (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Arcturus)[/list]
Deucalion (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Deucalion)[/list]
Faridun (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faridun)[/list]
Imana (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Imana)[/list]
Ishmael (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ishmael)[/list]
Kapila (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Kapila)[/list]
Mulciber (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mulciber)[/list]
Ninsun (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ninsun)[/list]
Perseus (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Perseus)[/list]
Things (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Things_(Eschaton)) - items and features
The Abyss (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Abyss_(Eschaton))[/list]
The Blades of the Circle (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Blades_of_the_Circle)[/list]
Gungnir (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gungnir)[/list]
Mistletoe (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mistletoe)[/list]
Orichalcum (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Orichalcum_(Eschaton))[/list]
Pandora's Box (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Pandora%27s_Box_(Eschaton))[/list]
Royal Road (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Royal_Road)[/list]
Tarnhelm (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Tarnhelm)[/list]
Time Chambers (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Time_Chambers)[/list]
Wave Sweeper (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Wave_Sweeper)[/list]
The World Tree (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=World_Tree)[/list]
Organizations (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Organizations_(Eschaton)) - power groups
Amplius Viri (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Amplius_Viri)[/list]
Angels of Vengeance (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Angels_of_Vengeance)[/list]
Arcturian Empire (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Arcturian_Empire)[/list]
Atlantean Empire (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Atlantean_Empire)[/list]
Conclave (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Conclave)[/list]
House Bors (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Bors)[/list]
House Gawain (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Gawain)[/list]
House Lancel (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Lancel)[/list]
House Lionel (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Lionel)[/list]
House Lucan (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Lucan)[/list]
House Palamedes (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Palamedes)[/list]
House Pellinore (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Pellinore)[/list]
House Tristram (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Tristram)[/list]
Inquisitors (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Inquisitors)[/list]
Triumvirate (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Triumvirate)[/list]
Vatian Empire (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Vatian_Empire)[/list]
Watchers (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Watchers)[/list]
Cosmology (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cosmology_(Eschaton))Planes (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Planes_(Eschaton)) - levels of being
Magic (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Magic_(Eschaton)) - supernatural power and its users
SociologyCultures (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cultures_(Eschaton)) - the 22 cultures
Anannites (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Anannites)[/list]
Mulcibites (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mulcibites)[/list]
Religions (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Religions_(Eschaton)) - faiths
Druidism (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Druidism_(Eschaton))[/list]
Vates Church (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Vates_Church)[/list]
History (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=History_(Eschaton))Cosmogony (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cosmogony_(Eschaton)) - creation
Prior Eras (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Prior_Eras) - earlier versions of the Earth
Golde Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Golden_Age_(Eschaton)) - time of Atlantis
Silver Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Silver_Age_(Eschaton)) - time of the fae
Bronze Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bronze_Age_(Eschaton)) - time of heroes
Iron Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Iron_Age_(Eschaton)) - modern age
Bestiary (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bestiary_(Eschaton))Spirits (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Spirit_Bestiary_(Eschaton))
Primordials (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Primordials_(Eschaton))[/list]
Cosmic Beings (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cosmic_Beings_(Eschaton))[/list]
Fae (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fae_(Eschaton))[/list]
Ghosts (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ghosts_(Eschaton))[/list]
Monsters (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Monster_Bestiary_(Eschaton))
Chimera (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Chimera)[/list]
Griffin (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Griffin)[/list]
Mutant (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mutant)[/list]
Sea Monster (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sea_Monster)[/list]
Mortals (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mortal_Bestiary_(Eschaton))
Atlanteans (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Atlanteans)[/list]
Giants (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Giants_(Eschaton))[/list]
Siddha (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Siddha)[/list]
Therianthropes (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Therianthropes)[/list]
Undead (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Undead_(Eschaton))[/list]
LoreGlossary (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Glossary_(Eschaton))
FAQ (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ_(Eschaton))
Inspirations (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Inspirations_(Eschaton))
[/spoiler]
[img:width=700]http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/images/f/f8/Eschatonmap.jpg[/img] (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Atlas_%28Eschaton%29)
Every religion tells us of a last battle, a time when the world descends into darkness, a time when there will be no more time. The Destroyer has been incarnated. It is not prophecy. It is History. The end is coming.[ic=Anonymous Vatian Priest]The Eschaton is a myth. Time will not end, for God would not allow such a thing to happen. Fear not.[/ic]
Things to Know about Eschaton
* Eschaton is an alternate history/historical fantasy set around 45 BCE. It is a dark fantasy setting where everyone has an agenda. Except for specific changes, the Earth is much like historic Earth in antiquity. Humanity dominates Earth, while supernatural creatures live in the underworld.
* The characters in the setting are characters from mythology, reinterpreted, their stories becoming part of the history of this Earth. Many locations are also named after mythical places. Other place names are derived from historic names.
* Twenty-two supercultures exist, each tracing its cultural ancestry back to a messiah. These god-like messiahs are said to have lived over four thousand years ago. The supercultures have rough analogs in historical Earth.
* Alexander the Great and King Arthur are the same historical figure, Arcturus (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Arcturus). He lived in Logres and built the greatest empire in recorded history. His empire did not survive his death, a death blamed on the Myrddyn the Betrayer.
* Some bloodlines carry the blood of the fae. These people, siddha (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Siddha), have access to magical abilities called siddhi. Whether they are hunted and exterminated or placed in positions of reverence, they are people to be feared.
* Fate is relentless, driving men towards a fixed and often cruel future. History follows a cycle of ages. The specifics change, but the pattern remains the same.
* Souls are eternal, uncreated. Individual lives are easily snuffed out, but souls play out a never-ending cycle of death and rebirth.
Themes
Fate vs. Free Will
Fate drives the Wheel of History, but if the future is written, heroes still struggle to assert their free will.
Humanity vs. Divinity
Many creatures claim divinity, but the nature of the divine is open to interpretation. As one's power grows, one's humanity tends to falter. [ic=On Myrddin]Whether Myrddin truly betrayed Arcturus or not, we may never know. What we can say for certain, is that Arcturus felt betrayed, and that feeling is all that truly matters. The Church seized on that sentiment and demonized Myrddin, called him the Betrayer, the man that destroyed an empire that could have united all humanity.
But the truth is, the Arcturian Empire would likely have collapsed under its own weight even without Myrddin. It was a fragile alliance held together by the force of personality of the kind the world had not seen since the messiahs themselves. And Arcturus may well have gone mad with that power.
Once, we believed the fae were gods. Their mortal descendants, the siddha, were blessed chosen. Now we know them to as flawed as the rest of us. It is only that they think themselves gods that make them dangerous. The Church used the supposed betrayal of Myrddin to launch a fresh Inquisition. Perhaps one day no more siddha will remain.
-Excerpt from the Chronicles of the Unseen Order
[/ic]
[ooc]Feel free to comment on this thread, or on the appropriate discussion page on the wiki (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Eschaton). I will be updating the wiki, and crossposting excerpts on the thread.[/ooc]
The Vatian Empire (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Vatian_Empire)
[note]The Vatian Empire is the historical analog of Rome. Only it's a theocracy. And it's based off of Sicily. And it was an empire from the beginning.
It's probably the most important organization to understand in the western world.[/note]
The Vatian Empire is the theocratic empire of the Vates Church, based on Thrinakia. It has become closely tied to its province of Logres, such that the two cultures have become almost indistinguishable.
While many are subject to the empire, citizenship is a privilege granted only to those from Thrinakia or Logres, or those awarded it for service. Citizens cannot be executed for capital crimes, though they are exiled; they can never be crucified. Citizens receive other legal privileges, such as fewer restrictions on marriage, and the ability to vote on certain public offices.
[ic=Chronicles of the Unseen Order]Vatia has the chance to be what the Arcturian Empire never could: stable. It could last a thousand years. Of course, the Church's unwavering stance against the siddha, the revival of its Inquisition, also makes some powerful enemies for the Empire. And whatever the Inquisitors think, Amplius Viri is still out there.[/ic]
Structure
The Empire is ruled by the Vicar, the head of the Church--an office equivalent to an emperor. Each province of the Empire is overseen by the Church, via bishops, but governed by a secular military governor of the rank of legate. These governors are appointed for a term of one year, but often receive multiple such appointments. They are usually drawn from the ranks of the Logrian nobility or are bishops that stepped down for a government career; sometimes lesser provinces are governed by knights or Inquisitors. Governors protect against both enemies and domestic agitators, as well as serving as judge over legal disputes. They also ensure that taxes for the province are sent back to Thrinakia. A province that cannot pay its taxes or war indemnity has to take loans, usually at inescapably high rates.
Socially, Logrian nobles stand just below upper Church members. Below them are the knightly houses of Logres. Plebeians, or common freemen, stand below the knightly orders. Plebeians once had little voice in government, but now are represented by elected tribunes that ensure their interests are attended to.
The lower classes are considered inferior, and can thus receive corporal punishment from the upper classes. However, the upper classes do offer some support to the lower classes, including by offering them a grain dole--free monthly grain handed out to each male citizen for his family.
Really cool so far.
So how large is the Vatian Empire? Does it just include Sicily and Italy, or does it extend far out into the Thalassa Sea, as Rome did?
Quote from: Elemental_ElfReally cool so far.
So how large is the Vatian Empire? Does it just include Sicily and Italy, or does it extend far out into the Thalassa Sea, as Rome did?
Thanks EE. Validation always helps :D
It's more or less the same as Rome was. All the places have been renamed after mythical places or obscure historical names.
[ooc]By the way, Eschaton was the reason I created the Mythological Resources (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mythology_Resource) pages.[/ooc]
The sidebar on the wiki lists the names of the provinces: Amazonia (Pontus), Aratta (Bithyia), Ellas (Greece), Karkhedon (Carthage), Khemia (Egypt), Libya (Numidia), Listeneise (Hispania), Logres (Italy), Lyrcea (Illyria), Ogygia (Corsica), Phaeacia (Crete), Phlegra (Macedon), Sandalyon (Sardinia), Thrinakia (Sicily), Valland (Gaul)
You can see these on the map, though I've put their real-world counterparts in parenthesis here.
Ok so I have a question. Vatian seems to be an amalgam of Rome and the Vatican, so who do the Vatians worship? I read the wiki page but I'd like some more info :)
Vatian's legion is very, very large 288,000 men. Even Imperial Rome only had 153,600 men (which included auxiliaries). So there must be a big threat on the horizon for the Vatian Empire to maintain such a massive army.
Need to see more before I can say too much, but it's a really neat idea. I'm a bit confused by Alexander and Arthur being the same person, and how that works. Did Alexander (are you using either of those names at all, or is this character always just known Arcturus?) at some point decide to go west and just make it all the way to Britain to do the things Arthur is famous for? I realize this is an alternate history, so you have leeway to make changes, but how faithful to the history of Alexander and the lore of Arthur are you keeping?
ETA: I suppose it helps to actually READ the material you've provided. I see what you did with Arcturus. So it was the reverse of what I figured.
This is pretty cool, I really like this kinda thing. And I have to say, your wiki template is really pretty.
Aside from that it looks interesting. A couple things jump out to me.
1. I find it strange that all 22 messiash just happened to all show up around the same time (from what I understand, could be wrong) 4000 years ago (roughly 4000 CE).
2. Was Arcturus a messiah? Also, I'm not sure when King Arthur is supposed to have happened, but I thought it was like in 700-800 BCE, yet the setting takes place in 45 BCE. Maybe its just me being confused.
Keep up the good work Phoenix, its interesting. I like the little in-world snippers they help liven it up.
Questions! I'm excited, it's been a while since I've had a full setting up for the CBG (Eclipse was a mini-setting, and over a year ago).
One early answer: I don't use Earth names for places or historical persons in setting; I've used them here only to help give a clear picture for those not reading the setting in depth.
Quote from: http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Silver_Age_%28Eschaton%29Silver Age[/url], so around 3200 BCE in our world (or 1 Bronze Age in my setting).
Yup, it's strange. x. The messiahs were chosen by phoenixes to help mankind survive the Fae Wars which split the fae (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fae_%28Eschaton%29) into Seelie and Unseelie.
Quote from: http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Iron_Age_%28Eschaton%29Iron Age[/url] page explains the last several centuries (the 1st c IA would be 800 BC), including Arcturus (in the 5th c IA).
Quote from: Elemental ElfOk so I have a question. Vatian seems to be an amalgam of Rome and the Vatican, so who do the Vatians worship? I read the wiki page but I'd like some more info
Vates Church[/url], the religion around which the empire is based. Any resemblance to the name Vatican is coincidental.
The word Vates is a Latin word for prophet. They worship an unnamed God of light very loosely based on Ahura Mazda, though it's more complex. The Vates themselves are the twelve messiahs the Church accepts as saints, who fought against the god of darkness at Unug during the Bronze Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bronze_Age_%28Eschaton%29). I'll probably make that my next post.
QuoteVatian's legion is very, very large 288,000 men. Even Imperial Rome only had 153,600 men (which included auxiliaries). So there must be a big threat on the horizon for the Vatian Empire to maintain such a massive army.
You know, I haven't done any calculations on how many men the legions added up to. All those numbers were pulled from a book called the Complete Roman Army, by Adrian Goldsworth. Highly recommend it. I think I took the number of legions (the only number I could find for that) inherited by Augustus; a number he cut in half. If your number comes from imperial period, it would make sense it would be less than what is listed now (in the time of "Caesar").
Thanks Seraph, EE, and Llum for the questions.
Quote from: PhoenixVatian is the demonym of Vates, from the Vates Church (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Vates_Church), the religion around which the empire is based. Any resemblance to the name Vatican is coincidental.
The word Vates is a Latin word for prophet. They worship an unnamed God of light very loosely based on Ahura Mazda, though it's more complex. The Vates themselves are the twelve messiahs the Church accepts as saints, who fought against the god of darkness at Unug during the Bronze Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bronze_Age_%28Eschaton%29). I'll probably make that my next post.
Very interesting!
Quote from: PhoenixYou know, I haven't done any calculations on how many men the legions added up to. All those numbers were pulled from a book called the Complete Roman Army, by Adrian Goldsworth. Highly recommend it. I think I took the number of legions (the only number I could find for that) inherited by Augustus; a number he cut in half. If your number comes from imperial period, it would make sense it would be less than what is listed now (in the time of "Caesar").
It is true, the numbers I derived were post-Augustus. I suppose the large legionnaire count you have is fine, especially if the state can support it (either through direct taxes/tithes or military generals paying percentage).
One more question, who is the biggest threat to Vatian independence?
Historically, I'd say Rome would be reaching the end of its period of "defensive" conquest, and moving into conquest for its own sake. Caesar's justification for invading Gaul was shaky, and the wars in the first centuries AD even more so.
Internally, the siddha are a pretty big threat because the Church is determined to wipe them out. The Inquisition has been pretty successful at this, but Amplius Viri (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Amplius_Viri) still exists and may move against them. And, of course, the nobles houses of Logres (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Logres) hover on the edge of another civil war (one just finished).
Externally, Khvarvaran (Persia) is about the only near power that could pose a political threat, at this point.
Vates Church (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Vates_Church)
The Vates Church (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Vates_Church) is the state religion of the Vatian Empire (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Vatian_Empire) and arguably the most powerful organization in the world. The Church's heart lies on the island of Thrinakia, in the city of Vatia. The heart of this city is the grand cathedral, Corbenic, which is surrounded by a fortress wall.
[ic=Chronicles of the Unseen Order]Strangely, few ever stop to ask where Mistletoe came from. The very emblem of the Church--a sword that the doctrine claims was given by God himself. Perhaps it was. We do know that the leader held the sword even when the Church was nothing more than a cult on Thrinakia.[/ic]
Structure
The Church is led by the Vicar, the speaker for God and heir of the Vates. Each province within the empire is overseen by an archbishop, who leads from a cathedral. Several bishops serve each archbishop. A bishop oversees a populous region within a province, called a bishopric. Almost every major city has its own bishop. Beneath bishops, priests serve as the voice of the Church, possibly the only voice in small communities. Priests are served by deacons, ordained laymen who perform minor ceremonies. Monasteries are overseen by abbots or abbesses, who hold rank equal to a bishop.
Each clergyman is required to shave their head as a sign of faith. They receive a glyph tattoo indicating rank on the back of their head, much like other Mulcibite glyphs. These glyphs are designed to be built upon as rank grows. On being ordained, a clergyman receives a ceremonial sword as a sign of his office. The sword, Mistletoe, serves as the sign of the office of Vicar.
The Church maintains its own military organization, beyond the imperial military, called the Inquisitors. They exist outside the traditional hierarchy of both the military and the Church itself. The Inquisitors answer only to the Vicar himself.
Pantheon
The Church teaches there is only one true God, whom they do not name. God chose twelve Vates, or prophets: Anann, Deucalion, Faridun, Hanwasuit, Heimdall, Ishmael, Kapila, Melkarth, Mulciber, Ninsun, Paivatar, and Ugunsmate. These ancestors of the races of man are also venerated as saints.
The Church teaches that there was once an opposing god of darkness, but that God destroyed the evil god through the Vates. However, the chief of the dark god, an angel that had betrayed God, escaped. This Dark Angel is said to walk the world forever, tempting and tainting mortals and evil spirits.
The fae are said to be angels that were cast out because they refused to fight alongside God against the dark god. Their siddha descendants are tainted by their cursed blood.
Ethos
Vates doctrine is drawn from the holy book, the Deus Logos. The book is divided into two sections. The first recounts the history of the world, starting with God breathing life into the Earth. The dark god tried to tempt mankind into serving him. He seduced angels of the lord who became demons, while other angels that did not follow God were cast out and became fae. The fae also tempted mankind with their power, which led to the dark god coming to Earth.
God chose twelve prophets--the Vates--to stop the dark God, and through them he slew the dark god. However, the dark god's chief, called the Dark Angel, escaped and was cursed to forever walk the world. Saint Mulciber recorded these holy events.
The second half of the book sets down religious laws and teachings. Among these teachings, the book tells that the fae, their siddha bloodlines, and the undead are unholy servants of the Dark Angel and must be destroyed. The book preaches love of mankind, but it also preaches unyielding strength, symbolized by the sword of the Church. It condemns all other religious as false. This section also prophecies the rebirth of the Vates.
Holidays and Ceremonies
At the heart of every chapel and cathedral a sacred flame burns, signifying the watching Vates. Worshipers toss a handful of grain into these flames, which briefly turn green, showing the saints accept the offering. In every chapel is lined with statues of the twelve saints along the walls leading to the altar of God. The floor of a chapel before these statues is carved with the image of a phoenix.
Worshipers are expected to make regular donations to the Church.
The last day of the year is dedicated the victory of the Lord over the dark god. All the faithful must attend service, make donations, and spend the day in prayer.
One of the things I'm thinking about:
Right now, I've got a section of the wiki called "Atlas" where I show several maps of continents. Then there's a subsection of the Encyclopedia called "Places" which is links to different locations. I wonder if this should all be one page, or if a separate page for big maps is good?
Wasn't Lemuria one of the mythical continents like Atlantis? Does it physically exist in your campaign? and where is it if yes?
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowWasn't Lemuria one of the mythical continents like Atlantis? Does it physically exist in your campaign? and where is it if yes?
Yes, it was. Most of the places in Eschaton are real places given mythical names. Atlantis is an exception--it sank beneath the Okeanus (Atlantic Ocean) at the end of the Golden Age.
Lemuria is here.
[img:width=750px]http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/images/c/c7/Lemuria.jpg[/img]
Humanity arose in Lemuria (rather than East Africa), and when the fae enslaved humanity, they took most humans back there and made it the heart of their empire. Thus most of the messiahs arose there. (15 in Australia, 2 in Mesopotamia, and 5 in the Congo--the three major centers of fae civilization, where they kept human slaves)
Besides my question about the Atlas, I'm also interested in what sections of the wiki people most want to see written up next. I've mostly posted all I've written now, and I'm just getting stuff out of my head at this point. So if there's one area or another of particular interest...
I personally would like to see more into the Bestiary section. What kind of fae creatures are around?
Yes, monsters please (!) :)
Bestiary (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bestiary_%28Eschaton%29)[ic=The Underworld]From the moment the light rose over the mountains I knew nothing I ever saw would be the same. When I could at last see the sky I realized that the island, for I had climbed through darkness to reach an island, was not in the sea, but in the sky. Clouds drifted by so close I could almost have reached out and touched them, did I not fear the edge. Trees bloomed in a hundred shades of green, and flowers in every color imagineable. But all of this pailed before the muriad denizens. Where those below had been horrific, those above were ethereal. Some flitted across the sky on ethereal wings, some frolicked in the streams without fear of being swept over the side, and others peered at me from hiding places behind the foliage. The spirits of nature viewed me with as much curiousity as I saw them, though less fear.
-Excerpt from the proported journals of Orpheus
[/ic]
On the edges of the mortal world and beyond lurk creatures of enormous power, mystery, and, often, malevolence. Most of the creatures herein dwell in the underworld, or in the case of the most powerful, the upper planes. They are rarely encountered in the mortal world in modern times, where most people see them as myths to be feared or spoken of around campfires. Most types of beings are known by different names in many cultures (if possible one name for each of the twenty-two super cultures), in some cases holding several different names within the same culture.
[ooc]All of the creatures in Eschaton are drawn from mythology, like the characters, magical items, and other features. I felt it important not to just make up new creatures, but rather to adapt the mythical ones to the setting. I wanted to preserve the flavor of each, while still making them at least a little distinct. This contrasts with one of my other main goals in creating the Bestiary--to avoid creature bloat that I think is not conducise to a serious, dark setting that's meant to feel historical. That being the case, I assumed that these beings from another world would be encountered across the Earth, but known by many different names (for example, ghoul and rakshasa are the same creature, as are a gnome and a dwarf, an ogre and a troll).
The strategy required me to also assume that, like people, these creatures would have variations. I've thus condensed just about every creature from Mythological Resource collection I collected into a handful of creatures (excepting some I want to remain unique individuals, rather than monster types). I fear in some cases it makes categories so broad its hard to say much, especially since culture I see as a different topic from race. On the other hand, a few creatures are so specialized, I almost want to condense them further. Have a look and tell me what you think.[/ooc]
Creatures fall in three categories:
1 Spirits - creatures of the Underworld or upper planes, arranged in a four tier hierarchy
2 Monsters - warped mutations created by spirits
3 Mortals - who may have some supernatural origin
Spirits (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Spirit_Bestiary_%28Eschaton%29)Spirits exist in a four tier hierarchy. While animistic religions consider all four tiers gods, only those on the upper tiers are held as deities by other religions. The nature of a spirit is rarely understood by mortals; most powerful spirits appear in many cultures under different names. In mythologies, stories often crop up relating various spirits, though such relationships are usually the product of human imagination--Primordials and cosmic beings are non-physical and thus incapable of having children. In each tier there are those natural and those tainted by the Cythrawl.
The Cythrawl (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cosmology_%28Eschaton%29) is the force of oblivion. For almost every spirit type, it creates one or two corresponded corrutped types. For example, a corrupted gnome becomes a goblin or ogre.
The descending hierarchy (Uncorrupted/Corrupted):
1 - Primordials (Devas/Devils)
2 - Cosmic Beings (Angels/Demons)
3 - Fae (Seelie/Unseelie)
4 - Ghosts (Shades/Spectres)
Monsters (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Monster_Bestiary_%28Eschaton%29)Monsters are animal-like beings created through the power of spirits. Many are created by demons to cause strife and destruction. Others were created by the fae as weapons or guardians. Most monsters are non-sentient. Monsters are found commonly in the underworld and uncommonly in the mortal world.
There are several broad categories of monsters, such as mutants. Rather than describe every one, I give a description of the category, and list specific variations under aliases. In general, no two mutants or chimera are alike.
Mortals (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mortal_Bestiary_%28Eschaton%29)Besides ordinary humans, a number of mortal beings also inhabit the world or the underworld.
This includes giants, the undead, siddha (sorcerers), were-beasts, and the Atlanteans.
Sample FaeDragons (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Dragon_%28Eschaton%29)
Dragons are serpentine spirits of water that may have attributes of other animals, including fish-like scales, which may be of a single color or a full rainbow of color. They are adept at controlling water and weather, bringing or denying rains at their pleasure. They live in the underworld of Patala, a realm of water filled with their undersea palaces. From here they can travel to the waters of Otherworld or the mortal realm. Older dragons can levitate and fly even without need of wings. They continue to grow as they age, the oldest reaching lengths of forty feet or more.
Dragons begin their lives as water-bound serpents, sometimes mistaken for fish. Those that grow strong enough may choose to pass through the Dragon Gate in Otherworld, beginning their personal evolution, a process by which dragons evolve and change form as they age. They may grow camel-like whiskers, horns of a beast, eagle-like talons, or even wings. Others may become feathered serpents. Many master the ability to shapeshift, allowing them to change their appearance or even assume human form.
Dragons are harmed by iron, but they love jewels, jade, and gold. An angered dragon relies on its power to control the elements. Besides water and weather, some master fire or earth. If necessary, a dragon also has great physical strength.
Nature: Spirit: Fae: Seelie
Aliases: Amphiteres (Anannites for feathered), Dragon-maid (Anannites for dragons in human hybrid form); Rainbow serpent (Bilites), Lightning Serpent (Bilites); Ryong/Yong (Dagunites), kyo (Dagunites for mountain dragon), dragon-carp (Dagunites for carp form), kye-ryong (Dagunites for chicken feathered dragon); Safat (Deucalites), Sciritae (Deucalites for humanoid form); long/lung (Guanites), kiao/yu-long (Guanites for carp form), kiao-long (Guanites for horned dragon), ying-long (Guanites for winged or feathered form), lung wang (Guanites for a Dragon King), tien-long (Guanites for palace dragon), fu-t'sang long (Guanites for treasure dragon), li long/ti long (Guanites for earth dragon), shen-long (Guanites for spiritual dragon); veri celen (Hanwasites); tatsu/ryu (Hononites), ri-ryu (Hononites for winged dragon), Tobi-tastu/hai-ryu (Hononites for feathered serpent); rainbow serpent (Imanites); naga (Kapilites), mahoragas (Kapilites for humanoid form), rong (Jang); Bujanga/nogo (Lalahites); Draconopedes (Melkarites); Cynoprosopi (Mulcibites for dragon with dog head); Harun (Neithites); zomok (Paivites); sarkanykigyo (Paivites for winged version); Yuxa/sly snake (Ugunsmatites for humanoid form)
Siddhi: Aerokinesis, Heightened Senses, Hydrokinesis, Resilience
Rare Siddhi: Astral Projection, Clairvoyance, Electrokinesis, Empathy, Geokinesis, Levitation, Pyrokinesis, Shifting, Telepathy
I want to know more about the 'dark angel'.
Needs more of a name.
wondering if he has servants, operhaps taking some of the fey who were castigated for not choosing sides? and how would his relationships to demons(mentioned above) be seen by the Vatian Church?
Quote from: Lord VreegI want to know more about the 'dark angel'.
Needs more of a name.
An excellent question, albeit a more difficult one for me to answer.
The simplest answer is that there is no Dark Angel, or at least no one cosmic being directly corresponds to the history presented by the Vates Church.
Theletus (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Theletus) has sometimes been mistaken for the Dark Angel. And there are fallen angels (demons) that serve Kroni (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Kroni), who is basically the Vatian "dark god," though I haven't detailed any yet.
I thought about giving him a personal name besides the title. Since all the names in the setting are from mythology, it would have to come from there. Most major spirits are already aliases of other spirits, and I'm not sure if I want to conflare the Vatian Dark Angel with a real personality--yet. Possibly I could just pull some unused demon name from Judeo-Christian mythology.
Quote from: LVwondering if he has servants, operhaps taking some of the fey who were castigated for not choosing sides? and how would his relationships to demons(mentioned above) be seen by the Vatian Church?
The first question becomes sort of moot since the Dark Angel didn't really happen. However, that's such a cool idea I almost wish I could use it.
The second question: The Church considers him the prince of demons, having inheritted the throne of the dark god. I need to add that to the description. Good catch.
Side note (Constructive Criticism): Regrettably the hyper-realistic map does not seem to fit this style. You may want to consider changing the map style when you have time/resources to better reflect the ancient world ethos. The map looks too modern.
I just read up on how magic works on the wiki. I think your system is fantastic.
Now I did have some questions. Orichalcum, obviously a great material for creating magical items. Are there a lot of non-sword Orichalcum items? So far of the 9 mentioned, all of them are swords.
I know in mythology there are tons of non-sword magic weapons (not as common as magic swords, but what can you do), so have you put any thought into how they would fit in?
I'm kind of curious of the role Prometheus plays, if any--he's pretty much my favorite mythological character ever right now. :)
I really like the "real"-world myth mining in general--there's a lot of really neat and crazy myths of items and creatures that should be used more in our crazy games, in my opinion.
How prevalent are the fae? Would a common craftsman in the city or a farmer see them every day walking down the street? Or would they be lucky to ever clearly spot a denizen of the supernatural world?
Lot's of questions, so thanks CBGers, it's very encouraging! I'm actually away from home right now, which makes updates more sporadic and ad hoc, but I'll be in at least once a day or so.
Quote from: LlumI just read up on how magic works on the wiki. I think your system is fantastic.
I'm kind of curious of the role Prometheus plays, if any--he's pretty much my favorite mythological character ever right now.
I really like the "real"-world myth mining in general--there's a lot of really neat and crazy myths of items and creatures that should be used more in our crazy games, in my opinion.[/quote]Prior Eras[/url] section of history. He's been responsible for the introduction of Pandora's Box (http://thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Pandora%27s_Box_%28Eschaton%29), manipulating the Destroyer (http://thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cosmology_%28Eschaton%29) in almost every Era, and generally annoying the Conclave.
One of my goals in Eschaton was to make it all real-world myth. I interpret stuff in new ways, and relate stuff that was never related in the real world. But I haven't made up wholesale new items, creatures, or cosmologies.
Quote from: http://thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=AnannitesAnannites[/url] that worship them, and hated in many other places, in part thanks to the Vates Church.
Quote from: PhoenixThe simplest answer is that there is no Dark Angel, or at least no one cosmic being directly corresponds to the history presented by the Vates Church.
I really like this. I think I may have mentioned this before, but I really like when a setting has its own mythology, too-- I think, too often in fantasy settings (and I must admit I'm guilty of this myself sometimes too) everything is "real" and there is no real folklore or beliefs beyond what the people can see. It's kind of ironic since the worlds are so fantastic and yet, because everything "fantastic" is "real," the people come across as cold rationalists.
Quote from: sparkletwistQuote from: Phoenix1 - Primordials (Devas/Devils)
It was something that I considered, especially since so much of Eschaton's cosmology is Dharmic religion based. I've lately actually been thinking about making "Archon" the base name, and deva an alias (if you follow the link you can see a few cultures call them other things).
I use "asura" as an alias for Unseelie because the asura races more closely mirror the Unseelie (indeed they are the Kapilite aliases for most Unseelie races).
I don't know that I see a huge difference between devils and demons, either. I suppose the word devil, derived from Persian daeva, is meant to imply a greater being (e.g. The Devil). And as such I made it the name of the higher rank of corrupted spirit (which needed some generic name). Actually, thinking it should be generic gives me more reason to change deva to "archon" (which was the Deucalite alias only because it was a Greek derived word, not so much because we see archons in Greek mythology--they are really Gnostic).
Thanks for getting me thinking Sparkletwist!
Cultures (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cultures_(Eschaton))[note]A little cultural information while I work on some of the requests put forth. The Mulcibites are the people that inhabit Logres (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Logres) and Thrinakia and thus form the backbone of the Vatian Empire. Rather than detailing culture extensively under each land, I have an extensive culture page for each super culture. Then, differences from that are explained on the locale.[/note]
Humanity in the eastern hemisphere is divided into twenty-two super-cultures, each claiming literal or cultural descent from a messiah. These messiahs lived during the Bronze Age, at which time they led their respective peoples apart, helping the
m to survive in a hostile world. Thousands of years have passed and many of these cultures have now subdivided, but all cultures within a super-culture retain some commonalities, such as the veneration of their messiah.
Each of the super-cultures developed its own language, which, over time has subdivided into regional dialects which may or may not be mutually understandable.
Mulcibites (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mulcibites)AppearanceMulcibites stand shorter than many other races, usually with ruddy complexions and brown hair and eyes. Men wear their hair short and most often shave clean. All but the poorest men visit the barber at least every couple of days for a shave. Men consider baldness a mar, prizing a full head of hair. Young women gather their hair in a bun in the back, but older women use much more elaborate hairstyles. They often tie their hair at the top of the head with a ribbon, or arrange them in layers. Many women use tongs to add curls to their hair. Married upperclass women spend a great deal of effort to look in fashion, such that professional hairstylists have become commonplace. Some women also dye their hair, adding a reddish tint.
Basic dress for men is a wool or linen tunic. Silk imported along the Royal Road (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Royal_Road), while popular for women, is considered effeminate by men. A basic tunic consists of two pieces of cloth sown together, untailored, with the surplus making short sleeves. Tunics are belted at the waist. Nobles and knights may wear a pallium (short cloak) over the tunic, and most citizens wear a licium (loincloth) underneath. A noble or knight's tunic bears a purple stripe, while the Vicar wears purple-lined robes. The purple dye for these garments is a prime import from Palaetyrus.
On formal occasions men wear a long piece of cloth called a toga, which is worn draped over the shoulder. Togas are hot and cumbersome, so at dinner parties men more often wear a cross between a toga and a tunic, called a sythesis.
Women wear a similar kind of tunic, called a stola, sometimes with a palla (mantle) overtop. They wear a strophium (leather strap bra) underneath. Only prostitutes and adulteresses wear togas, in some cases transparent silk ones.
Both men and women wear sandals, though women may at times wear soft leather shoes. In winter or in colder lands Mulcibites may wear puttees. Women favor gold and silver jewelry. Mulcibites rarely wear hats, but they may wear hooded cloaks called paenulae in inclement weather.
Mulcibites use a variety of glyphs to represent their social status. These glyphs are tattooed on the skin as a mark of standing; bearing a glyph one has not earned is a serious crime. A member of a noble or knightly house receives its glyph tattoo on his or her cheek at age fifteen. In addition, a trusted servant may receive the tattoo on the back of his hand, while a slave is marked on the inner wrist by his owning house. A freed slave receives an appropriate modification to the glyph tattoo.
Other status tattoos include the mark of the legion, commendations for valor, records of campaigns fought in, and certain civic offices or service awards. A noble can bestow a glyph for master swordsmanship as a mark of favor; such a tattoo is drawn on the right hand. Many Mulcibites also receive a glyph tattoo indicating the year of their marriage, and sometimes the number of children they have.
Social StructureMulcibite society is highly patriarchal. The father is considered the head of the household, while the heads of the noble houses are considered the metaphorical fathers of the state. A family consists of all people descended from the same father. A father's daughter's children are not part of his family, they are part of his daughter's husband's family. This system means that even a man with married children may still be a legal dependent of his father--who can still arrange marriages or divorces for all members of his family, as well as disown them or sell them into slavery, even execute them. If a father dies, a guardian is appointed to manage the affairs of his daughters and unmarried sons.
Because of the frequency of death and divorce, blended families are common. A household may thus consist of many step-siblings, half-siblings, or even adopted children. Adoptions are most common when a man needs an heir and is unable to have children, or his children have died. Despite the blending of families, relations between siblings are usually strong. Familial loyalty and obedience to the father is a key virtue in Mulcibite culture. Corporal punishment is a common child-rearing technique, which many Mulcibites believe prepares children for the harsh world.
Mulcibite society is organized into four tiers. At the top are the noble houses, that own the most land. Most wealth originated in agriculture, though the noble houses no longer work their own land. The knightly houses, each usually serve as a client to a noble house. Each noble or knightly house is represented by a glyph. The common people, or plebeians, serve as craftsmen, merchants, farmers, and similar workers. Slaves are the lowest rung of the social ladder.
Knightly houses provide the cavalry and most military officers. Knights own much of the property in and around Mulcibite cities. Knights believe in personal heroism as justification for their status. Their deeds enhance their family name and can win greater favor from the noble houses. Knights receive privileged seating at public events.
Plebeians (freemen) stand too far below the aristocracy to experience social mobility. Most aristocrats look down on plebeians as though they were children: ignorant and rash. Others disdain them simply because they must work for a living. Commonly they are seen as urban, but the class also includes farmers and shepherds. Shepherds in particular lead hard, lonely lives. Plebeians work undesirable job such as porters transporting goods and raw materials around cities.
Slaves stand beneath plebeians: legally they are non-people with no rights or even personal identities. A person taken as a slave is usually given a new name. Most slaves are taken as prisoners of war, captured rebels, rescued exposed children, children sold into slavery by poor parents, or the children of other slaves. However, others may become slaves when abducted by pirates or kidnappers. Slaves are commonly physically abused. Slaves bear a slave glyph indicating his house of ownership, and only noble or knightly houses are allowed to own slaves, with the exception of state slaves.
State slaves spend most of their time on city works, maintaining or building aqueducts, sewers, and the like. Most other slaves work on farms, or serve in the household to provide comfort. Slaves in Vatian provinces may have other hard or dangerous labor jobs, such as the silver mines of Listeneise. Farm slaves have become less common, as many nobles and some independent farmers have found tenant farming more profitable.
While state slaves commonly serve for life, privately own slaves often find manumission. House slaves, especially, tend to earn the respect of their masters. Owners may free slaves that have pleased them, slaves that have raised enough money to buy their freedom, slaves they wish to marry or adopt, or slaves too old or sick to be worth supporting. To free a slave, the slave and master appear before a praetor; the slave's glyph tattoo is then altered to indicate he has been freed. A master may also free a slave in his dying will. A freed slave may even be granted citizenship.
Mulcibite states operate through a system of patronage. Those with the most power offer their advice, protection, and in the case of plebeians, someone to plead their cases. In exchange, the client offers his patron service and aid with political campaigns. Patrons can accomplish the work of police or provide social services and basic security for their clients. They constantly reinforce their position of superiority, however, using tactics like keeping their client waiting for long periods of time.
CustomsMulcibites consider determination, discipline, and self-sufficiency the most important virtues, along with loyalty to the state and family. They are a people that quickly adapt techniques that work well for others, while trying to maintain an image of an ideal Mulcibite. They believe in hard work, but also take time to relax and socialize during the day. The Mulcibite day begins at sunrise and ends just before sunset. Service to the state is considered the proper occupation for those in power, and thus many nobles and knights pursue public careers, sometimes without pay. They may serve as lawyers, judges, diplomats, military officials, or even join the Church, in addition to pursuing the ends of their own house in more private ways.
Mulcibites can bear up to three names. The first, or given name, of which there are some forty to choose from, is followed by the gens or clan name. Wealthy citizens may also have a more limited family name (cognomen), a practice that became common within the last two generations. Women usually bear an effeminate form of their clan name as their given name (for example, Maria is of the house of Marius).
An ideal remains of a father as the teacher of his children. In the case of the wealthy, however, private tutors are more often hired, or even slaves used; Deucalite teachers are popular. Even among the plebeians, in the last century children have been taught in schools--privately run schools that allow many families to pay for a tutor together. These schools are taught in open air, or in rented space such as apartments; classes last until noon. Tutors and schools teach reading, writing, and arithmetic, preparing children for service and business. Wealthy families grant their children further education with paedagogues, who serve as escorts and teachers. Education can be carried further: a grammaticus teaches children about language, literature, astronomy, and basic philosophy. Beyond a grammaticus, a rhetor teaches the most advanced subjects usually reserved for clergy and statesmen, including the same subjects as a grammaticus and also history, law, geography, and especially public speaking. The most prized wealthy children may even go beyond this level, studying abroad in Athinai or other famed cities for a year. All but rhetors receive very low pay, and often limited respect, which can lead teachers to take out their frustrations on students. Corporal punishment is an acceptable means of discipline. Those that cannot afford schooling, or schooling beyond the basic level, may send their children on to apprenticeships, or take their children as their own apprentices. Children of the poor begin work at a young age--in some cases even girls work.
Most Mulcibites eat three meals a day, with very simple breakfasts and lunches which may consist of olives, cheese, figs, and nuts. The upper classes eat very well, sampling exotic foods from all around the Thalassa Sea, while the poor subsist mainly on wheat, boiled to make porridge--the poor may also have beans, leaks, and sheep lips. Supper is taken in early evening, often at dinner parties for the wealthy. The wealthy eat meats, vegetables, fruits, and cheese, with several courses. An appetizer may consist of fish or raw vegetables; the main meal is usually cooked vegetables and meats; dessert is nuts, figs, dates, plums, apples, grapes, and honeycomb. All people drink wine--or vinegar in the case of the most poor--watered down.
Cookbooks are popular with the upper classes, offering recipes from exotic lands such as Libya and Khemia. Popular recipes include sweet and sour pork, rabbit with fruit sauce, and Libyan chicken. Because many meals are prepared with honey, fruit, vinegar, or a fish sauce called liquamen, they can take on a sweet and sour taste.
Over the last several centuries Deucalite culture has had a profound influence of Mulcibite culture. Mulcibites have adapted Deucalite art, architecture, and sometimes even fashions, in addition to employing Deucalite teachers. The state remains somewhat leery of Deucalite philosophers, who have also occasionally run afoul of the Church. Deucalite medical knowledge has advanced Mulcibite medicine, but many remain skeptical of doctors who still have a low rate of success.
The Mulcibite people were once animists, but the Vates Church has come to totally dominate their culture. It pervades daily life in Logres (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Logres) and many Mulcibite territories. Believers in the old ways are few, and must practice in secret. Religious festivals are common, and the state helps to orchestrate them.
Mulcibites are famed for their skill as engineers. They have built not only massive buildings, but impressive works such as aqueducts, working sewers, roads, and irrigation systems.
Marriage and GenderMen and women usually marry young, at twelve or thirteen for girls, and around sixteen for boys. Both must marry the spouse chosen for them by their father. The bride's family pays a dowry to help support her in her new family. The wedding is a time of song, and a procession escorts the bride from her old home to her new one. Marriage was once a private affair, but it has become common to receive the blessings of the Church before marriage or divorce. Divorce is common among the upper classes, when one partner longer consents to the marriage. In the case of divorce, children remain with the father, and the bride returns to her prior family--which will likely try to marry her off again as soon as possible.
The function of marriage is to produce children, and thus a couple may hope for harmony, but romance is not a priority in most marriages. Couples are urged to have children early and often, partly to negate the high infant mortality rate. Sometimes those with enough children practice contraception, but with limited success. Death in childbirth is common, particularly because of the young age at which many bear children; those that survive may have grandchildren by the time they're thirty.
The ideal Mulcibite woman is said to be self-sacrificing and devoted to the betterment of her children. Mulcibites see the function of women as bearing children. They are also responsible for managing the household. Independent thought in a woman is considered scandalous, though they are expected to have enough education to understand their husband's work. Husbands frequently abuse their wives, whose only recourse is intervention from her family. In the poorest families, women may take jobs outside the home.
Adultery is tolerated among men provided it is with slaves, prostitutes, or unmarried women--to compromise another man's wife gives him ground for justified killing. Among women, no adultery is tolerated, even though they are expected to tolerate their husband's affairs. However, sexual restrictions have begun to loosen in the last century.
Birth and DeathBirth and death announcements are painted on the outside walls of a house or apartment. Many children are born, but the infant mortality rate is high. Even so, unwanted children may be left exposed. Sometimes they are found and sold into slavery; often they die.
Leaders and religious men receive eulogies at their funerals, and wealthy usually have extravagant processions. Even simple funerals are expensive for plebeians, so many join funeral clubs to mitigate the costs: they pay monthly dues at each dinner meeting, and club pays for their funeral when they die.
Most Mulcibite cities have strict funerary laws, which include not bringing a corpse into a city, nor burying or cremating within city limits. Violation of a gravesite is a major crime, but many families go farther, whispering curses on graverobbers.
Leisure[ic=Loth Gawain]The mob is easily amused. Which is fortunate, since when roused, they can make even the highest noble tremble with their voice.
-supposed lecture to his sons Gaheris and Gareth
[/i][/ic]
The favorite activity for most Mulcibites is wine or dinner parties. The poor cannot afford to host such things, but a large number of bars accommodate them, and their funeral clubs allow social dinners once a month (to pay dues). The wealthy display their wealth by frequently inviting their friends for dinner. Even the invitations themselves have become something of a literary genre, as a host tries to win over guests that almost certainly have competing offers. During dinner parties, hosts offer entertainment such as music or poetry readings. The wealthy prefer to recline on couches for dinner. Weather permitting, many favor outdoor gardens. Guests bring their own napkins, which can be used to carry food home in.
Gambling, especially dice games, occupy many Mulcibites; some even call it an addiction among soldiers. Gaming boards provide similar entertainment. Athletic competitions are also common.
State-sponsored festivals called ludi provide days of entertainment, with a variety of state-hired performers--all following the appropriate religious rites, of course. Chariot races are a favorite of both the poor and wealthy, with fanatical fans cheering on teams wearing colored uniforms. Many Muclibite cities have multiple race tracks--the great track in Astolat can hold almost a quarter million spectators. The gladiatorial arena provides another spectacle for the masses, as gladiator slaves are forced to fight each other or wild beasts.
The most educated may enjoy recitations of poetry. Most citizens, however, prefer the theater. Theater fees are low, or non-existent in the case of some open public theaters commissioned for ludi. Women are not allowed on stage, and thus male performers play the parts of women.
In rural areas where many of these pursuits are unavailable, people more often occupy themselves with hunting, fishing, or wrestling. Many Mulcibites, especially the wealthy, also favor travel. They try to stay with friends, for inns are usually nothing more than a few rooms above a public tavern with a stable, and perhaps prostitutes available.
Baths are a part of daily life for all but the most poor. While nobles may have private baths, a large number of public baths are available in all Mulcibite cities, and are a priority construction in Vatian provinces. These houses charge a very small fee, and thus are readily accessible to all. Most visit them in the afternoon, some many go straight from the baths to dinner. Baths offer rooms of hot water, warm water, and cool water. They offer far more, however, as many feature massage parlors, ballgames, jogging tracks, swimming, snack shops, gardens, and meeting rooms. They are places for socialization and sometimes informal business deals.
MilitaryBecause most Mulcibites are members of the Vatian Empire, their militaries have become totally subsumed by the Vatian military. Mulcibites value personal heroism and glory in battle, seeking to distinguish themselves. However, they also value discipline, and thus issue personal challenges only when it will not jeopardize the greater army.
HistoryMulciber (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mulciber) was one of the messiahs in Lemuria, and he led his people to Unug, where he secretly slew Kapila (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Kapila). Following this he settled in Logres, where he was eventually killed by Anann (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Anann). After many years, Mulcibites spread to several Thalassa islands, including Thrinakia. They rose to the world stage with the rise of Arcturus, who built his great empire--an empire that spread Mulcibite culture to many lands.
Following the fall of Arcturus's empire, the Vates Church gained great prominence among Mulcibites. Thrinakia, now the state of the Church, eventually came to control most Mulcibite lands. Logres remains the heart of the Mulcibite people, and a privileged state within the Vatian Empire.
Logres (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Logres)
[note]Even though Thrinakia is the capital of the Vatian Empire, Logres is probably the most important Mulcibite land[/note]
Social Structure[/b]
There are eight noble houses in Logres, which are the eight great noble houses of the Vatian Empire. These noble houses are descended from the generals of Arcturus, and thus claim to be heir to his empire. The houses are: Bors (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Bors), Gawain (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Gawain), Lancel, Lionel, Lucan, Palamedes (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Palamedes), Pellinore (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Pellinore), and Tristram. The heads of these houses compose the Senate, which governs Logres.
A large number of knightly houses exist beneath these, most of which are clients of one of the noble houses. A knight receives a state dispensation for purchasing a horse for military use. Position in these houses is hereditary, but a person can be expelled by the nobility, and others can be added, including the creation of new houses.
The Empire appoints men to fill the magistrate offices, such as city mayors, chief justice, chief engineer, public treasurer, and the quaestor, who inquires into public finances. Many of these positions are traditionally held by particular houses.
Economy[/b]
The currency system in Logres has become the official currency of the Vatian Empire.
1 golden aureus (pl. aurei) = 25 denarii
1 silver denarius = 5 dupondii (one day's skilled labor)
1 brass dupondius = 2 asses
1 bronze as = 4 quadrans
1 bronze quadran is the lowest
Logres trades with many lands around the Thalassa Sea, especially Thrinakia, Valland (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Valland), and Ellas. Through the Royal Road they can receive goods from far beyond the Vatian Empire. Astolat is the center of international trade in Logres.
Architecture[/b]
The noble and knightly houses own most of the housing buildings, including apartments, in urban centers. Plebeians commonly rent space in these buildings. Apartments may have shared space for cooking and toilets. A house may also have space that can be rented for a shop, combining residential and commercial locations. Houses for the wealthy also have space for slaves.
Outside the cities, most people live in farm houses. Though modest, they are more spacious than city dwellings. Most farms expect to be self-sufficient, and thus they may have limited contact with their neighbors. Many noble and some knightly houses also maintain villas out in the country so that they can escape city life from time to time.
Most houses follow a similar design plan. They feature a central atrium.
Because houses are built close together, fire is a constant threat. Many companies sell insurance against fire for an annual rate. Burglary is also a threat. The rich employ house guards, while the poor have to rely on their neighbors.
Mulcibites are famed for their engineering, and nowhere is this more evident than in Logres. A system of aqueducts provides mountain water to every major settlement. Public toilets can be found in marketplaces, and these flush into the miles of sewer tunnels which carry waste away from the cities. Cobblestone roads connect the entire nation and beyond.
Daily Life[/b]
Logres follows most Mulcibite customs. Life in the country is quieter than life in the cities, though the people lack protection against brigands. Yet many people find themselves drawn to the excitement of urban centers, despite the noise, risk of disease, crowds, traffic, and the threat of crime.
As requested, some new magic items:
Tarnhelm (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Tarnhelm) - magic helm
Wave Sweeper (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Wave_Sweeper) - magic ship
Gungnir (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gungnir) - magic spear
All created by the fae.
I will be updating the first post with the following table of contents. I will probably not continue to edit the list on this post after today. These are links only to non-stub pages.
[spoiler=Eschaton Contents]
Main Page (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Eschaton) - overview
Atlas (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Atlas_(Eschaton)) - maps
EncyclopediaSpirits (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Spirits_(Eschaton)) - named spirits
Agni (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Agni)[/list]
Caen (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Caen)[/list]
Kroni (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Kroni)[/list]
Prithvi (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Prithvi)[/list]
Sophia (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sophia)[/list]
Theletus (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Theletus)[/list]
People (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=People_(Eschaton)) - people in the setting
Anann (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Anann)[/list]
Arcturus (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Arcturus)[/list]
Deucalion (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Deucalion)[/list]
Faridun (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faridun)[/list]
Imana (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Imana)[/list]
Ishmael (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ishmael)[/list]
Kapila (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Kapila)[/list]
Mulciber (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mulciber)[/list]
Ninsun (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ninsun)[/list]
Perseus (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Perseus)[/list]
Places (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Places_(Eschaton)) - locations
Logres (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Logres)[/list]
Valland (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Valland)[/list]
Things (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Things_(Eschaton)) - items and features
The Abyss (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Abyss_(Eschaton))[/list]
The Blades of the Circle (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Blades_of_the_Circle)[/list]
Gungnir (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gungnir)[/list]
Mistletoe (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mistletoe)[/list]
Orichalcum (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Orichalcum_(Eschaton))[/list]
Pandora's Box (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Pandora%27s_Box_(Eschaton))[/list]
Royal Road (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Royal_Road)[/list]
Tarnhelm (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Tarnhelm)[/list]
Time Chambers (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Time_Chambers)[/list]
Wave Sweeper (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Wave_Sweeper)[/list]
The World Tree (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=World_Tree)[/list]
Organizations (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Organizations_(Eschaton)) - power groups
Amplius Viri (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Amplius_Viri)[/list]
Angels of Vengeance (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Angels_of_Vengeance)[/list]
Atlantean Empire (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Atlantean_Empire)[/list]
Conclave (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Conclave)[/list]
House Bors (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Bors)[/list]
House Gawain (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Gawain)[/list]
House Lancel (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Lancel)[/list]
House Lionel (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Lionel)[/list]
House Lucan (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Lucan)[/list]
House Palamedes (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Palamedes)[/list]
House Pellinore (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Pellinore)[/list]
House Tristram (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=House_Tristram)[/list]
Inquisitors (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Inquisitors)[/list]
Triumvirate (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Triumvirate)[/list]
Vatian Empire (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Vatian_Empire)[/list]
Watchers (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Watchers)[/list]
Cosmology (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cosmology_(Eschaton))Planes (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Planes_(Eschaton)) - levels of being
Magic (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Magic_(Eschaton)) - supernatural power and its users
SociologyCultures (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cultures_(Eschaton)) - the 22 cultures
Anannites (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Anannites)[/list]
Mulcibites (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mulcibites)[/list]
Religions (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Religions_(Eschaton)) - faiths
Druidism (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Druidism_(Eschaton))[/list]
Vates Church (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Vates_Church)[/list]
History (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=History_(Eschaton))Cosmogony (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cosmogony_(Eschaton)) - creation
Prior Eras (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Prior_Eras) - earlier versions of the Earth
Golde Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Golden_Age_(Eschaton)) - time of Atlantis
Silver Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Silver_Age_(Eschaton)) - time of the fae
Bronze Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bronze_Age_(Eschaton)) - time of heroes
Iron Age (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Iron_Age_(Eschaton)) - modern age
Bestiary (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bestiary_(Eschaton))Spirits (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Spirit_Bestiary_(Eschaton))
Primordials (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Primordials_(Eschaton))[/list]
Cosmic Beings (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cosmic_Beings_(Eschaton))[/list]
Fae (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fae_(Eschaton))[/list]
Ghosts (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ghosts_(Eschaton))[/list]
Monsters (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Monster_Bestiary_(Eschaton))
Chimera (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Chimera)[/list]
Griffin (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Griffin)[/list]
Mutant (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mutant)[/list]
Sea Monster (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sea_Monster)[/list]
Mortals (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mortal_Bestiary_(Eschaton))
Atlanteans (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Atlanteans)[/list]
Giants (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Giants_(Eschaton))[/list]
Siddha (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Siddha)[/list]
Therianthropes (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Therianthropes)[/list]
Undead (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Undead_(Eschaton))[/list]
LoreGlossary (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Glossary_(Eschaton))
FAQ (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ_(Eschaton))
Inspirations (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Inspirations_(Eschaton))
[/spoiler]
Bana (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bana) aka Ares
[note=Bana]Bana is one of the forty Primordials (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Primordials_(Eschaton))--the most powerful beings in existence.[/note]
Bana is the devil of war, the bringer of slaughter. He was one of the first to join Kroni. Though many worship him as a war god, most realize his nature is one of destruction and chaos. He incites war wherever he can, not just to suit the ends of the Abyss, but for its own sake--he revels in the death. As such, he has a competitive relationship with his female counterpart Dhumravati. He remains closer allies with Nirrta and Nirrti than even Kroni. In Kroni's absence, Bana has stepped up to via for control of the forces of the Abyss, though some believe that if any other can seize power, it will be Nirrti.
Aliases: Esus (Anannites), Cariocecus (Listeneise); Chiha Yo Changgun (Dangunites) Ares (Deucalites) Aeshma (Faridites) Zaba (Hanwasites) Ilmaka (Ishmaelites) Bana/Vairochi (Kapilites) Ku-Kali-Moku (Lalahites) Moloch (Melkarites) Ogun Edo (Morimites) Mars (Mulcibites) Mahren Auxmite (Mulindwites) Mahes (Neithites) Tursus (Paivites)
Kovas/Svetovid (Ugunsmatites)
------
In other news, I tried reformatting the Atlas (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Atlas_(Eschaton)) and Places page into a single page. I'm trying the look without the blue content box. I'm interested in opinions on the aesthetic.
Devils (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Primordials_(Eschaton))
[ooc]I finished detailing the seven devils. I feel like maybe I should say something else about some of them, but it seems hard to say much about non-physical eternal beings that act mainly through others. I included the example of the writeup for Bana (aka Ares), from the post above, and for Nirrti, so called "Queen of Hell." Thoughts?[/ooc]
Kroni (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Kroni) (Ahriman, Crnobog, The Dark God, etc.)
Avatar of the Abyss, Lord of Darkness, ruler of all demons and devils. Currently AWOL.
Bana (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bana) (Ares, Esus, Moloch, Tursus, etc.)
Bana is the devil of war, the bringer of slaughter. He was one of the first to join Kroni. Though many worship him as a war god, most realize his nature is one of destruction and chaos. He incites war wherever he can, not just to suit the ends of the Abyss, but for its own sake--he revels in the death. As such, he has a competitive relationship with his female counterpart Dhumravati. He remains closer allies with Nirrta and Nirrti than even Kroni. In Kroni's absence, Bana has stepped up to via for control of the forces of the Abyss, though some believe that if any other can seize power, it will be Nirrti.
Dhumravati (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Dhumravati) (Agrona, Bellona, etc.)
Female war devil.
Diti (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Diti) (Ate, Likho, etc.)
Female plague devil.
Hardual (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Hardual) (Pallor, Resheph, etc.)
Male plague devil.
Nirrta (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Nirrta) (Dispater, Orcus, Nergal, Belial, etc.)
Male death devil.
Nirrti (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Nirrti) (Hekate, Hel, Erecura, Belili, Ereshkigal, Allatu, etc.)
Nirrti is the devil of death, the so-called Queen of Hell. With Kroni's absence, she is the leading contender to become the ruler of the devils, though she would risk much to stake such a claim. She is deeply involved with her male counterpart Nirrta, though whether their relationship could be called love is debatable--it is perhaps as devils might come to the emotion. She depends on his power and influence, but everyone realizes she is now the most influential of the two. She delights in the physical and mental torture of both the living and the dead.
The write up pages for all 40 Primordials are done. See the list: here (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Spirits_(Eschaton))
(7 Devils from previous post, plus 33 archons)
The list also includes write ups for 3 aeons (Theletus, Sophia, and Caen).
So I've been thinking about some potential changes to the setting.
The first I'm pretty sure I want is that cosmic beings and Primordials will no longer be able to manifest (generate a physical body from nothing), they have to inhabit existing matter (i.e. possess someone).
The only real trouble here comes in the titans/Watchers, who were manifested angels. I can say that they possessed human hosts and those hosts gained the power to change size, though.
Aeons, are a secondary problem, as usual, as they were supposed to manifest as as different things, including the phoenixes. Also, they can't (currently) possess anything, only manifest. And they actually have physical forms which can be killed.
[note=Horse]
I got your PM. I'm not able to respond, or rather it doesn't show up as sent. Maybe it's the apostrophe in your name, I don't know.[/note]
[ic=Potential Revisions]
1. Cosmic Beings (angels/demons) and Primordials (archons/devils) cannot form bodies, only possess them.
Pros-This to me makes the entities a little darker, a little more mysterious
Cons-Titans were supposed to be manifested angels (possible solution is that they possess a human and then can change size using a siddhi)
-Aeons manifest at several times in history, including as titans or phoenixes, and their physical forms can die, unlike angels/demons
2. All spirits are incorporeal and can interact with the physical world only through manifestation
(A major, major change). Instead of the intricate underworld I've been developing, spirits would exist on the astral plane. Genius loci would literally be physical places on Earth, but appear as "people" on the astral plane (For example, you could meet Mount Everest).
Pros-Thematically, I think it fits the darker tone of the world
-It creates a setting I think will be more original--one where a dwarf, for example, is the literal spirit of a mountain or stone, but can only interact directly by possessing someone
-It makes the role of Mediums more clear, if they can see any spirits by seeing the astral plane
-Inquisitors might become more interesting, focusing more on the exorcism aspect
-Ghosts make a little more sense
Cons-The work I've done on the underworld is wasted, and I have to find another way to incorporate those mythical places. I lose the cool aspects of the underworld.
-It prevents any kind of stories about sojourns into the Otherworld
-I have to rewrite history (though a history of possessors and so forth could be interesting)
-I have to rethink most fae
It makes it harder to write interesting spirits, if they are non-physical
I have to rethink where siddhas come from (they were children of humans and fae)
There is no good place for dragons
There is no good place for centaurs and other hybrids, nor for metamorphs
-There is no good place for monsters
-Giants have to exist on Earth
-I lose the possibility that mortals are reborn as fae and vice versa, a kind of neat cycle
-I lose Tartarus, I necessary prison for the titans and a necessary part of the story
3. I had been thinking I wanted to revise the magic system. Tillumni gave me an idea of saying that using chakras could burst blood vessels, causing bruising or internal damage. While I hadn't seen much that indicated chakras were tied to blood, they are tied to the endocrine system, which transmits via blood vessels. So this could be a part of a strong revision.
Pros-Magic has a physical cost beyond the abstract loss of lifeforce
-Magic can create a visible effect to draw attention from Inquisitors (this is awesome if everyone with a bruise is suddenly under suspicion)
Cons-I still feel like I need to rework things just a little to make the system as a whole suitable for use in fiction (this is only a partial solution)
4. I had in my notes that maybe lycanthropy should not be contagious. Not sure why I wrote that down to consider--though in old stories shapeshifting is not usually contagious--that seems to be a more modern contrivance.
[/ic]
Quote from: Llum1. The Aeons are sufficiently different that I think they could still have the ability to manifest a physical form, as opposed to the other Cosmic Beings, this would also help differentiate them. Making them more unique, at the moment they are quite similar to other cosmic beings.
I also don't see how this makes it *that* much darker.
3. I really really like the magic system in Eschaton, one of the best I've seen IMO. That being said, I don't think this change would detract from it.
However, it would really make me rethink the combat effectiveness of the Chakras if your wounding yourself to use your powers.
I also don't think that the Inquisition would go after everyone with a bruise. Bruises are fairly easy to get (especially back at the turn of the millenium, no fancy protective gear) and even with armor your going to get a ton of bruises from combat (if you survive).
The other thing, it would be *incredibly* easy to frame someone. Beat them up, and be like "They used chakras! Look at the bruises!"[/quote]4. Makes sense, although how would lycanthropy propagate then? Through Bloodlines? Ritual?[/quote]
Bloodlines, yeah. That's how it originally worked, then when it became a curse and were-beasts could no longer control themselves, it could be spread through saliva or other body fluids.
I can't remember why I wrote that note to myself about changing that, so I can't say if it was a good idea... x.
So my current thinking is that 1,3 I want. 4 I don't think I want to change.
Not sure about 2 yet.
I'd love some more thoughts on any of these ideas.
My thought on the underworld is, and I'm not sure how well this will work, but why can't it be sort of both? What I mean is, the "Underworld" doesn't necessarily have to be physically a place you can access via a cave or whatnot, but it can be a place where characters can materialize in essentially their real forms. Sort of a parallel world, pocket dimension, or something of that sort. It is a real world, in the sense that it obeys physics and whatnot, but it's also completely divorced and detached from the "real world" that the rest of Eschaton would take place in. If you link it to the real world, though, you can still meet places/things as people when you journey to this alternate world-- because it's a sort of mirror world, you'll see some things that are similar, but it won't be exactly the same.
I think this can allow you to take some of your pros without having to take the cons. For example, perhaps Mediums can see into this other world, without having to physically go to it. If we assume it's dangerous (I'm assuming it is), to be able to see what's going on without having to risk oneself by physically visiting would be a pretty big boost. The spiritual visitation can work two-ways, too, allowing you to get the "possession" aspect.
I like #3, too, just as long as you don't get to that moment that every fiction writer hates-- where your character's magic power is expended, and every reader is thinking "ok, he just ran out of MP" because of the way you presented it. I'm bad at this myself, so unfortunately I can't suggest anything all that useful to avoid it, other than to make the physical ailments suffered by mages subtle and varied, so there is no real "MP indicator" (like fatigue, or burst blood vessels, or any other single thing)
Quote from: SparkleI like #3, too, just as long as you don't get to that moment that every fiction writer hates-- where your character's magic power is expended, and every reader is thinking "ok, he just ran out of MP" because of the way you presented it. I'm bad at this myself, so unfortunately I can't suggest anything all that useful to avoid it, other than to make the physical ailments suffered by mages subtle and varied, so there is no real "MP indicator" (like fatigue, or burst blood vessels, or any other single thing)
does[/i] have the user burning mana (I use the Hindu "prana"). I'm ambivalent about changing this, both because I don't want to totally divorce magic from its realworld counterpart, and because several people have said they liked the system.
Quote from: PhoenixHowever, without a direct parallel in the real world, I began to question what part of the spirit world a medium sees into. It is one thing when the faerie world mirrors Earth, but another when the geography is unrelated (and much more vertical, and also smaller). Does that make sense, or am I rambling?
But the fact remains, the basic writeup
does have the user burning mana (I use the Hindu "prana"). I'm ambivalent about changing this, both because I don't want to totally divorce magic from its realworld counterpart, and because several people have said they liked the system.[/quote]
Yes, I see your point, and I do think you can do both. I mean, in real life, we burn up various bodily resources as we do things. We burn food energy during physical activity, and we also sweat and lose water, muscles get fatigued, and so on. I think the trick is that there's nothing that stands out like a little MP (or HP, or stamina, or whatever) meter at the bottom of the video game screen. I'm picturing two types of physical combat: one where the villain dies because he "ran out of HP" and the other because the hero struck a heroic blow and everything just looked cool.
[ic=Galaad]Gold runs the world, of course. It makes kings, and it breaks them. Entire nations have destroyed themselves for orichalcum. The soulsteel can build an empire. Years in the Khemian desert taught me water can count for more than jewels. But there is a commodity worth more than any of these. Those with the Sight are more valuable than any good. The ability to see the future is the ability to win every battle, to outdo every foe. It is the power to tame the tides of history.[/ic]
Oracles, those with the Sight, are sought by all those in power. The Vates Church proclaims them not siddha, but the chosen of God. The siddha orders see them as brethren that can change their fates. And every noble, general, and entrepreneur great and small would sacrifice almost anything to control an oracle.
The Sight can reveal past, present, and future. And there is always a price.
[ic=Rudra]Precognition accounts for itself. The future is immutable. Time devours all things. Even hope. Even itself.[/ic]
This is an interesting teaser, but I am hoping for more detail. :D
Is the Sight a new development? I didn't remember reading about it, but maybe I might have missed it. I'm curious how this is going to affect the history, as it seems like history is very important in this setting (perhaps even more so than most)!
For example, it seems like any sort of absolute prescience would be pretty overpowered and kind of free-will-destroying (which, admittedly, isn't as important because you're writing and not gaming, but still), so I'm assuming it's not just absolutely correct. Or maybe it's absolute, but with a sort of twist to it-- like, "what I see will come to pass, but not in the way you might think." Or do they only think they're correct all the time, but actually get it wrong?
Even if the person with Sight only sees possibilities, it is still immensely powerful, of course. Even more so if it allows sight of things that the person might not otherwise know. That is, in addition to glimpses of the future, it is a sort of clairvoyance.
As another take on the aspect of possibilities, I'm actually thinking of the movie "Next." There, he could see possibilities, but he could see all of them, at once, instantly, and simply ran through them all until he found the best course of action. This seems to fit the "win any battle" part of your quote-- they go over plans of attack and whatnot until one seems to 'stick.'
They still might get it wrong, too, which I'd assume would make the people in charge none too happy. Though, that leads to my last question, with such immense power, why wouldn't they be the ones in charge in the first place?
Great questions Sparkletwist. This may be why I need a consultant--I always run out of things to say about most topics too soon. I suppose it comes from always trying to keep my writing trim, and overdoing it.
I'm actually putting together a rambling collection of off-the-top of my head thoughts on why the setting is designed, which may help me decide what I can change and what I can't.
Oracles were always a part of the story, but previously a minor part. I had a couple of characters that were oracles, and people tried to use them, but it was played up less I now intend. They are siddha with the ESP siddhi (which I'll probably rename Sight, as it sounds more in line with the time period).
Quote from: sparkletwistIs the Sight a new development? I didn't remember reading about it, but maybe I might have missed it. I'm curious how this is going to affect the history, as it seems like history is very important in this setting (perhaps even more so than most)!
For example, it seems like any sort of absolute prescience would be pretty overpowered and kind of free-will-destroying (which, admittedly, isn't as important because you're writing and not gaming, but still), so I'm assuming it's not just absolutely correct. Or maybe it's absolute, but with a sort of twist to it-- like, "what I see will come to pass, but not in the way you might think." Or do they only think they're correct all the time, but actually get it wrong?
Even if the person with Sight only sees possibilities, it is still immensely powerful, of course. Even more so if it allows sight of things that the person might not otherwise know. That is, in addition to glimpses of the future, it is a sort of clairvoyance. [/quote]will[/i] happen. But as you say, it will often not happen how you think. The question is how you get there. Whether free will can exist in spite of determinism is the question many characters struggle with.
No one possesses perfect prescience in Muad'Dib sense (though in his case, that was merely a matter of seeing every possibility and how to bring them about). In Eschaton, the future already exists, and sometimes can affect the present. Many precognitive visions can become self-fulfilling prophecies.
Clairvoyance is a separate power, though I suppose there could be some overlap. I imagine Clairvoyance usually has more control and more range.
QuoteAs another take on the aspect of possibilities, I'm actually thinking of the movie "Next." There, he could see possibilities, but he could see all of them, at once, instantly, and simply ran through them all until he found the best course of action. This seems to fit the "win any battle" part of your quote-- they go over plans of attack and whatnot until one seems to 'stick.'
They still might get it wrong, too, which I'd assume would make the people in charge none too happy. Though, that leads to my last question, with such immense power, why wouldn't they be the ones in charge in the first place?[/quote]
When are the people in charge ever happy?
Good question. There are not many of them. Within the Vatian Empire, the Church proclaims them prophets of God, not siddha (which are hunted down and eradicated). Probably if these people ceased to be useful and became a threat, this could change. Probably a similar situation exists elsewhere. Within siddha organizations, they often are in senior positions.
I am trying to reconcile some semi-exclusive goals in this setting. Figuring out how to do it and have it keep the tone I want is the hard part.
Quote from: PhoenixA way to incorporate all world mythology.
Quote from: PhoenixEnough divergence from typical fantasy to be interesting, without creating something that no longer feels like earth
I guess this is why I keep thinking about the underworld. I feel like what I've got going is interesting, but it feels like something that has been done before. The real world, the Otherworld. Basically two separate worlds. Of course, the underlying mirror theme has been done too...
But my feeling for a long time has been Eschaton is not the setting for civilizations of other races and so forth. Contrasted, I still want the mythical creatures found in the myths I draw from. So I tried moving them to the underworld (a kind of parallel universe).
But somewhere I struck on this idea that these creatures cannot exist on Earth except within a native creature. Hence they have to possess or otherwise inhabit a native. This struck me not only as something more divergent from the norm without totally casting aside the mythological source, but more in tune with the idea of keeping the supernatural subversive. These creatures don't come to Earth really, except by forcing their will on humans, and even then, you can't really kill them or stop them, only send them back.
But I keep vacillating back and forth on the issue.
I have considered, for example, the idea that ghouls are possessing spirits of cannibalism. Most people that become ghouls have invited the ghoul inside by resorting to cannibalism or other unclean practices.
By doing this with everything would mean losing some of the flavor of some of these creatures, among other disadvantages I mentioned in a prior post.
Quote from: PhoenixFree will vs. Fate is the largest underlying theme in the setting and story, explored (among other ways) in part through precognition. To answer the question, Rudra is correct, precognition accounts for itself. Which is to say (assuming a person is a true oracle and not just crazy or a liar), and assuming what they are seeing is the future and not something else*, what they see will happen. But as you say, it will often not happen how you think. The question is how you get there. Whether free will can exist in spite of determinism is the question many characters struggle with.
Good question. There are not many of them. Within the Vatian Empire, the Church proclaims them prophets of God, not siddha (which are hunted down and eradicated). Probably if these people ceased to be useful and became a threat, this could change. Probably a similar situation exists elsewhere. Within siddha organizations, they often are in senior positions.[/quote]
But since the future is already known, don't they know exactly when they'll cease to be useful and start being hunted down?
Quote from: PhoenixOne of my goals in creating the bestiary was to incorporate all these creatures in as few entries as possible. To say that the Arabian ghul and the Indian rakshasa are the same thing by two different names in different cultures. Lately, I've been thinking about trimming it down some more if possible.
But somewhere I struck on this idea that these creatures cannot exist on Earth except within a native creature. Hence they have to possess or otherwise inhabit a native. This struck me not only as something more divergent from the norm without totally casting aside the mythological source, but more in tune with the idea of keeping the supernatural subversive. These creatures don't come to Earth really, except by forcing their will on humans, and even then, you can't really kill them or stop them, only send them back.
But I keep vacillating back and forth on the issue.[/quote]apparent[/i] ability to manifest in physical form wherever, because they're possessing a rock, or something. This sort of thing is especially suited to elementals and spirits and such, I'd think.
Er, yeah I did intend to write a footnote there.
*oracles, being psychically open, are prone to metaphorical, non-literal visions, visions of the past, and visions where details change relating the oracle to the life of the person who left the psychic impression.
QuoteBut since the future is already known, don't they know exactly when they'll cease to be useful and start being hunted down?
I will say that I think it doesn't have to strictly be an either/or. It's probably best handled on a case-by-case basis.[/quote]
It's a thought.
I was thinking, for example, a genius loci like a river nymph. In the spirit world she looks human. On earth she's a river. If she wants to interact on earth, she has to possess someone. Whoever she possesses may begin to exhibit physical traits based on her residual self image.
Sadly, all my narrators are unreliable :(
Whatever I do with all or some spirits, a big question I have to answer is whether to remodel the underworld.
On the one hand, I think the detailed otherworldly structure I had detailed was beautiful and interesting. It also allowed me to incorporate most mythical places.
On the other hand, I'm not sure it fits the tone of the setting. And I still see it as a problem ghosts and people that see ghosts. If they exist in a normally invisible version of the same world, it seems easier to explain them interacting with the physical world, and being seen by mediums.
If the underworld has this magnificent, surreal, alien structure of a giant mountain and islands held in the sky by the roots of Yggdrasil...well it's harder to equate that.
I'm seeking an epiphany, I guess.
Quote from: PhoenixIf they exist in a normally invisible version of the same world, it seems easier to explain them interacting with the physical world, and being seen by mediums.
If the underworld has this magnificent, surreal, alien structure of a giant mountain and islands held in the sky by the roots of Yggdrasil...well it's harder to equate that.
I'm seeking an epiphany, I guess.
I don't know if this counts as an epiphany, but what I would do is to combine the two ideas, and I'd do it like this: The overall structure of the underworld is still magnificent, surreal, and alien. However, at certain points on the slopes of the mountain or on those islands in the sky, it starts to resemble areas in the real world. Real-world myth is full of stores of haunted places and other locations where the spirit world seems to be very close at hand. I think you could make it so these are the areas that are closely mirrored in the spirit world. That is, a certain forest that is thought to be haunted in the real world would have a forest that looked exactly like it in the underworld. Other areas are not so attuned with spirits and whatnot, because they have no real "mirror" in the underworld. The geography of the underworld would not really parallel the real world, as the linkage of these various "spiritual nexus locations" could be vastly different between the two worlds; it would just be the case that certain locations looked very similar. (It could be one of the skills of a medium to sort out how real-world and underworld geography relate)
That does sound like it would work well. It could mean that not only do areas of the Skysea mirror, but say the volcanic areas of the Inferno could mirror volcanoes, etc. Thanks Sparkletwist!
It still means a ghost would have to be out of the undermountain area (forgot what I called it), in order to interact. But the idea of liminal places would work well.
So that means I'm rethinking my bestiary a bit. I'm thinking that higher spirits (cosmic beings, etc) have no physical forms and thus can exist on Earth/underworld only through possession. Fae (or many fae), have forms in the underworld but cannot physically exist on Earth, so must also possess.
Two possible explanations:
1) In the case of genius loci, they already exist on Earth, as mountains, rivers, forests, etc., and cannot be physically present twice.
2) The underworld, being a lower plane than Earth has more physicality, and thus the less physical, physical plane can support such lifeforms. That would, however, mean that all underworld creatures might have problems, which isn't what I want...
So first I'll look over my current bestiary. This contains almost all the creatures I researched for the Mythology Resource pages on the wiki. Some of those I decided where unique entities, not types, and some few I just couldn't fit in. The rest are my choosing a single name to talk about a creature, which is known by different names in each of the twenty-two cultures of the world (sometimes more than one within a super-culture, even).
3 Super-Categories: Spirits, Mortals, Monsters
Monsters
Defined as animal-like creatures created by spirits, many for creating destruction.
Chimera - all monsters which are hybrids of animals, excepting bird hybrids (see griffins)
*regular chimera
*aquatic chimera
Griffin - hybrid of an eagle or other bird with one or more other animals
Mutant - giant or otherwise mutated animal
*regular mutant
*roc
*aquatic mutant
Sea Monster - aquatic monster
*Kraken
*Leviathan
Mortals
Defined as humans, and human-descended beings.
Atlanteans - post-human evolution from beginning of current era
Giants - descended from humans and titans
Siddha - humans with fae blood (sorcerers)
Therianthropes - humans holding the animal spirit (were-beasts)
Undead - soul inhabiting a corpse (stretches definition of mortal, I guess)
*Revenant
**vampire as subtype
*Deformed
Spirits
Largest and most complex category, arranged in a four-tier hierarchy of descending power. Some consider all spirits gods, some consider the most powerful gods, some don't call any gods. In each case, a spirit has a "pure" form and a form tainted by the Cythrawl (force of oblivion).
Primordials
First humans, achieved enlightenment. Later created cosmic beings as servants.
*Archons - pure
*Devils - corrupt
Cosmic Beings
Formless messengers/servants of primordials existing in higher planes.
*Angel - pure
*Demon - corrupt
Fae
Nature spirits existing in the underworld. Here's where we get complex.
*Seelie - pure
*Unseelie - corrupt
[note]I had to put this in code to preserve the outline format. Ignore code numbering.[/note]
Seelie List
1) Animal Spirits - one universal spirit of each animal (no Unseelie counterpart)
2) Dragons - serpent water spirits
3) Genius Loci - place spirits
a) Sylph - air elemental
b) Gnome - earth elemental
c) Salamander - fire elemental
d) Undine - water elemental
e) Field Spirit
f) Forest Spirit
g) Marsh Spirit
h) Mountain Spirit
i) Sea Spirit - mermaid
j) Attendant Spirit - basically guardian "angels"
k) House Spirit - brownie, leprechaun, etc.
l) Muse - spirit of inspiration or enlightenment
4) Hybrids - fae with animal features
a) Archanid - scorpion-man
b) Bird - kinnara
c) Cow - shedu
d) Goat - faun
e) Horse - centaur
f) Monkey - vanara
5) Metamorphs - fae that can change into animal form
a) Cat - cait sith
b) Canine - cu sith, kitsune
c) Horse - unicorn, Pegasus
d) Seal - selkie
Unseelie List
1) -no corrupt animal spirits-
2) Orms - tainted dragons (as Western dragon)
3) Genius Loci - tainted
a) Storm Fiend - tainted sylph
b) Goblin - tainted gnome
c) Ogre - tainted gnome #2
d) Afrit - tainted salamander
e) Water Fiend - tainted undine
f) Monopod - tainted field spirit
g) Forest Fiend - tainted forest spirit
h) Ghost Light - tainted marsh spirit
i) Mountain Fiend - tainted mountain spirit
j) Sea Fiend - tainted mermaid
k) Imp - tainted attendant spirit
l) Ghoul - tainted attendant spirit #2
m) Bogie - tainted house spirit
n) Death omen - tainted muse
o) Succubus - tainted muse #2
4) Hybrids - tainted
a) Archanid - arachne
b) Bird - harpy
c) Cow - minotaur
d) Goat - glaistig/serim
e) Horse - Nuckelavee
f) Monkey - evil monkey men
5) Metamorphs - tainted
a) Cat - hellcat
b) Canine - hellhound
c) Horse - water horse
d) Seal - hellseal
Ghosts
Shades - untainted
*common ghosts
*hungry ghosts
*phantoms
Spectres - tainted
*common spectres
*poltergeists
*wraiths
So that's the list. I'll give some of my thoughts on them in a later post. I do feel like further condensing the list would serve my design goals, but doing so is tough--it was hard reconciling everything to this degree even.
I'm also thinking about what my options are for the spirit possession angle. One possibility is saying that hybrids are not fae (though they should remain part of the fae courts), but mortals living in the underworld (like giants).
Since you say the Vatian Empire is the most important organization to understand in the western world, and it's also the first thing in this thread, that's what I'll look at next.
First of all, how do you pronounce "Vates"? Is it pronounced in a Latin way (Vah-tess), or does it rhyme with fates? If you're writing this for mass consumption it might not hurt to clear this up, because English is weird so English speakers get confused easily.
I like the general portrayal of the place, though. I get kind of Roman Empire mixed with medieval Catholicism vibe, and I also get some elements of the Terrans from Warhammer 40K, though not as sci-fi, obviously. The thing about citizenship also kind of reminded me of Starship Troopers. How common is it for someone not from Thrinakia or Logres to get citizenship? Is there any resentment by the other people who have to work for it?
From the wiki, the political and military structure seems pretty Roman, too, except for the part about knights-- what is the relationship between knights and the professional military? Are they a parallel structure, more like the officers, or more like the "special forces," or something else?
When you say "the lower classes can receive corporal punishment from the upper classes," what do you mean? Like, can an upper class person beat a lower class peasant just for talking back or some other minor slight, which would tend to create a lot of class resentment, or are there some rules/restrictions on it?
You must have been working on this while I was doing the bestiary post!
Quote from: sparkletwistI like the general portrayal of the place, though. I get kind of Roman Empire mixed with medieval Catholicism vibe, and I also get some elements of the Terrans from Warhammer 40K, though not as sci-fi, obviously. The thing about citizenship also kind of reminded me of Starship Troopers. How common is it for someone not from Thrinakia or Logres to get citizenship? Is there any resentment by the other people who have to work for it?
Mulcibite[/url] phenomenon, so more info is listed on that cultural page (see Social Structure).
QuoteWhen you say "the lower classes can receive corporal punishment from the upper classes," what do you mean? Like, can an upper class person beat a lower class peasant just for talking back or some other minor slight, which would tend to create a lot of class resentment, or are there some rules/restrictions on it?
That was also taken from Rome. I don't recall the exact answer, so I'll get back to you when I've had time to look it up ;)
A quick refresher, and I'll give this answer:
A master can beat his slaves as he wills, though viciousness in doing so is actually rare as extreme measures are not believed useful. A father can beat other members of his family. A teacher can whip his students.
As far as upper classes administering corporal punishment to lower classes, I'm thinking there has to be a notable wrong being punished, otherwise its not corporal punishment, its just a beating. Of course the lower classes have little legal recourse against nobles even in that case, so maybe it's all the same.
In regards to compressing the bestiary (a few posts up), some of my thinking...
Metamorphs are naturally similar to therianthropes, so, on the surface, it might seem like they could be combined. A deeper look, however, reveals some problems. First, none of the metamorphs are similar in nature to were-beasts, really. The fairy cat, fairy dog, unicorn (or pegasus) are not really intended to be humans that turn into animals or the reverse, they're shapeshifting magical animals. The selkie (seal-person) is closer, though the myths don't quite fit the savage nature inherent to were-beasts. The Unseelie versions have all the same problems.
The mountain spirit seems similar enough to the earth spirit (gnome) that I think maybe they can be combined. That creates some problems with the Unseelie Mountain Fiend, which is defined more as a spirit of mountain coldness (e.g. yuki-onna). And, of course, to keep with the Greek idea of beautiful Oread nymphs, I'd have to say female gnomes look way different than males.
I could combine sea spirits (mermaids) and undines (freshwater spirits), as well, but that might also pose some difficulties.
I could say hybrids are mortals, as I mentioned in an earlier post, although that means that they can't have tainted versions, so Unseelie ones would just become other mortal races. Even otherworldly, though, I don't know I want other races...
There is also the issue that usually there's a one-to-one analog from "pure" to tainted spirits, but in some Seelie there are two kinds of Unseelie they can become. This may or may not become a problem.
I don't know your bestiary nearly as well as you do, and, honestly, I found the initial post a little bit confusing and imposing. I'm not sure how well I'll be able to consult on specifics until I've been able to read a lot more (and not just your stuff, I had to look up what a therianthrope was, for example) but I will try to add some general thoughts that will hopefully be helpful.
While I understand what you're trying to do, and I don't want to criticize what seems to be one of the setting's basic founding principles (incorporating real-world mythology into a coherent narrative) I would like to caution you against too much of a kitchen-sink feel. Maybe some myths are simply that... myths. I think there is sometimes a temptation in fantasy settings to view things from too much of a modern perspective, but in the old days, these myths were as real to them as everything else. This isn't to discourage you from adding whatever you want, mind you, but just keep in mind that the "objective reality" of the setting and how people see things don't necessarily have to always correspond.
So, I think it doesn't always have to be crystal clear. You seem to be trying to come up with a sort of taxonomy for mythological creatures, which is admirable, and very detailed, but the depth and diversity of myth makes a logical, consistent, I dare say "scientific" analysis difficult. Since you are creating the setting for literature, it might not even be all that necessary-- there will be no DM/GM needing tables, just a reader immersed in your world. As long as you have figured the categories in broad terms so that you're able to present a consistent picture of your mythological creatures (so the reader isn't left feeling like the story isn't internally consistent) you might not need to go really far with categorization.
A more fluid system of categorization might help you better than trying to fit everything into strict categories, anyway. For example, let's look at your trouble with mountain and earth spirits. Perhaps they should be more like races (as in human races)-- that is, while you can have general categories, and based on someone's appearance, generally declare that person to be "white" or "black" or whatever and so on, really, we're all a mix of all sorts of different ancestries, and there are a lot of people out there who are somewhere in between one of the broad categories. Maybe something like this applies to spirits, too. I'll come back to what I said about the objective reality and how people see things not having to line up-- while the people may perceive different discrete categories of spirits, like "mountain spirits," perhaps the reality of it is, there are just spirits, containing different affinities for elements. Then, different cultures can categorize the spirits in different ways, and each one keeps its own mythological names for them. Your "objective reality" on the other hand, is instead some very broad and simple categories, with a lot of variation in between. It seems like it'd allow a good deal of simplification, without shoehorning.
Just a thought, anyway. :)
It looked way cleaner in Word, an outline rather than my having to used "code tags" for p reformatted text (which still lost proper indenting).
Quote from: sparkletwistWhile I understand what you're trying to do, and I don't want to criticize what seems to be one of the setting's basic founding principles (incorporating real-world mythology into a coherent narrative) I would like to caution you against too much of a kitchen-sink feel. Maybe some myths are simply that... myths.
Since you are creating the setting for literature, it might not even be all that necessary-- there will be no DM/GM needing tables, just a reader immersed in your world. As long as you have figured the categories in broad terms so that you're able to present a consistent picture of your mythological creatures (so the reader isn't left feeling like the story isn't internally consistent) you might not need to go really far with categorization.[/quote]A more fluid system of categorization might help you better than trying to fit everything into strict categories, anyway. For example, let's look at your trouble with mountain and earth spirits. <snip>[/quote]
I can think about it, but I don't want to go overboard in that direction either--I could say all fae are the same, inside, genius loci, but then I still have to break down what different cultures name them in their aspects, which may wind up similar to what I have. Of course, I do something a little similar with monsters (chimera covers a bazillion different mythical creatures).
Some things to think about, anyway.
So the idea of myths being myths made me think about what I didn't need--really monopods as the tainted counterpoint of field spirits are unnecessary (and silly creatures). So I'm thinking they can be a kind of deformed--a type of undead where I lump all malformed humanoid freaks.
That means ghouls can instead be the corrupt counterpoint of field spirits. This solves the problem of attendant spirits becoming two things, too. So two birds are dead now.
Quote from: PhoenixI have, sometimes, thought about that. I suppose part of wanting to do this is like the city thing with you--this is what interests me, these broad cosmological, world-defining features.
So the idea of myths being myths made me think about what I didn't need--really monopods as the tainted counterpoint of field spirits are unnecessary (and silly creatures). So I'm thinking they can be a kind of deformed--a type of undead where I lump all malformed humanoid freaks.[/quote]
I don't really understand this, but from this and from other things you've written, I'm getting the feeling there is a strong duality in Eschaton supernatural beings. There is a "pure" form and a "corrupt" form, for lack of a better term, right? Is there somewhere I can read more about this (and if I've got it wrong, get the right idea)? It seems like it's important to understand, and I can probably give much more meaningful advice on the bestiary if I understand it better.
Heh, I meant the in-world narrators giving quotations (except for Prometheus) are unreliable--not me! In seriousness, I feel like I need to know the truth, before I can craft the beliefs. Also, some of these things--and it's hard to say how much and what until it's created--will be revealed.
Part of crafting the wiki is creating a setting Bible, a reference for me to use to keep everything internally consistent.
Quote from: http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cosmology_%28Eschaton%29Cosmology[/url] page explains about Brahman and the Cythrawl. The Cythrawl is the force of oblivion. Anyone using magic (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Magic_%28Eschaton%29) has two choices: white magic (powered by prana, your own lifeforce) and black magic (powered by the Cythrawl). Because the Cythrawl is limitless and comes from outside, it gives you basically unlimited energy to drawn upon. But it corrupts the soul.
In the case of spirits (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Spirit_Bestiary_%28Eschaton%29), this means a pure spirit that draws repeatedly on the Cythrawl is eventually transformed into the tainted variety.
Archons become Devils
Angels become Demons
Seelie Fae become Unseelie Fae
Shades become Spectres (actually, in this case, a mortal soul that was tainted in life becomes a Spectre--a shade usually can't change)
So that duality is indeed really important. The only really complex category is the fae. In the other tiers, there's basically only one entry on each side.
Aeons, as discussed earlier with Freakin' Awesome Horse, are cosmic beings that kind of don't follow the normal rules.
Non-spirit entities (mortals and monsters) do not transform physically, although a corrupted soul affects their mental state just as it does a spirit.
Quote from: PhoenixIn seriousness, I feel like I need to know the truth, before I can craft the beliefs.
Cosmology[/url] page explains about Brahman and the Cythrawl. The Cythrawl is the force of oblivion. Anyone using magic (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Magic_%28Eschaton%29) has two choices: white magic (powered by prana, your own lifeforce) and black magic (powered by the Cythrawl). Because the Cythrawl is limitless and comes from outside, it gives you basically unlimited energy to drawn upon. But it corrupts the soul.[/quote]
Interesting.
Is there any way to undo this corruption, or are you essentially stuck with it? Or, actually, since the setting has reincarnation, and it corrupts the soul, does that mean it is permanent through the ages, not just in one's lifetime? It seems like eventually it would eventually corrupt everyone-- because it seems like magic use is based on biological ancestry, so it seems like as time went on every soul would be reincarnated in a magic-using body.
Quote from: sparkletwistInteresting.
Is there any way to undo this corruption, or are you essentially stuck with it? Or, actually, since the setting has reincarnation, and it corrupts the soul, does that mean it is permanent through the ages, not just in one's lifetime? It seems like eventually it would eventually corrupt everyone-- because it seems like magic use is based on biological ancestry, so it seems like as time went on every soul would be reincarnated in a magic-using body.
Now we're getting into the deep metaphysics. Some of this is still stuff I'm trying to work through myself, so some answer may be preliminary. A soul tainted by the Cythrawl is not reincarnated until the taint has been burnt off (alternatively, if Unseelie can have children, then it would be reincarnated as Unseelie, not a human).
This gets into the idea of karma too, which many Westerns take to mean you get what you give, but really the word means "action." As in, the sum total of your actions must be paid for in your next life, determining where you are reincarnated (never paid for in this life). In the case of Eschaton, this karma infuses your soul (and I'm thinking that's what spirits feed on when draining souls). A tainted soul might be drawn into Tartarus and tormented until purified, or might become a spectre until its bad karma is paid out. At which point, the pure soul can reenter the paramatma and be reborn.
Reincarnation, even beyond that, is not random. Stronger souls are naturally going to be drawn into positions of power. Also, see the Web of Souls concept on the cosmology page. So not every soul would be born into a siddha bloodline and have the chance to use magic. Not everyone that can use magic will. Not everyone that does use magic will use black magic. A soul that achieves enlightenment will be removed from the cycle, and some may eventually be incarnated in higher (spirit) forms. Those that are tainted will most likely become spectres, as mentioned above, until they can reenter the paramatma, excising the Cythrawl from their soul. Chances are, such a soul has burned out a lot of its power, so it may spend its next life as a pauper or a goldfish.
Magic is genetic in the following sense (this may be subject to change based on new ideas about fae possessing, rather than physically existing on earth): Human beings don't have magical powers. However, some fae can take human form, even on the chromosomal level. Should they breed with humans, some part of their essence is passed on, even though the child will be physically human. This essence continues (sometimes dormant) for unlimited generations--these are the siddha. The Vates Church (the Inquisitors, specifically) thus trace siddha bloodlines and wipe them out, and they have been very successful at it. The numbers of siddha have been continually falling--which may further spur the efforts of some secret societies to bring the siddha to rulership.
I've noticed you uploaded a lot of new pages lately. They're just stubs, but I did have some initial thoughts. First of all, I want to say, I think it's good that you've put in the MetaNotes showing what real cultures the people correspond to. While it's good that the world is immersive and whatnot, there are a lot of cultures in Eschaton, and honestly, sometimes it's difficult to keep them all straight. I'm sure I'll get better at that as I learn more, but that's just me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to have this problem-- so it's quite helpful.
Maybe you're going to add more depth, or maybe it's just too vast (you're trying to assign cultures to the whole world, so I can understand!) but I've noticed your cultural map is pretty "Eurocentric." Like, all of South and Southeast Asia is essentially assigned one culture, the Kapilites. If this isn't your area of interest, that's fine, but given the cultural depth you've assigned to Europe, it does seem a little bit hollow. It might be better to reduce your focus than to have this map of the whole world and have so much detail in some areas but such broad (unrealistically broad, in my opinion) strokes in the other.
I had some thoughts about the wiki technical problems you've been having, too, but I posted those on the relevant talk pages.
Quote from: sparkletwistI've noticed you uploaded a lot of new pages lately. They're just stubs, but I did have some initial thoughts. First of all, I want to say, I think it's good that you've put in the MetaNotes showing what real cultures the people correspond to. While it's good that the world is immersive and whatnot, there are a lot of cultures in Eschaton, and honestly, sometimes it's difficult to keep them all straight. I'm sure I'll get better at that as I learn more, but that's just me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to have this problem-- so it's quite helpful.
Maybe you're going to add more depth, or maybe it's just too vast (you're trying to assign cultures to the whole world, so I can understand!) but I've noticed your cultural map is pretty "Eurocentric." Like, all of South and Southeast Asia is essentially assigned one culture, the Kapilites. If this isn't your area of interest, that's fine, but given the cultural depth you've assigned to Europe, it does seem a little bit hollow. It might be better to reduce your focus than to have this map of the whole world and have so much detail in some areas but such broad (unrealistically broad, in my opinion) strokes in the other.[/quote]
Actually, I expect a significant portion of the story to take place in India (probably more than any other one location). I suppose I should explain myself a little, though. I started out knowing I had at most 27 supercultures to work with (and any number of subcultures). Each superculture was to represented by a phoenix avatar, which meant it had a corresponding aeon. There are 30 aeons, but 3 did not incarnate as phoenixes (I need Theletus, Sophia, and Caen for the story). I reserved 5 for the New World, though I may never detail it (and that was tough, I wanted like 9 for it).
That left me 22 supercultures for the Eastern hemisphere. I started with linguistic groups (so there were like 9 Indo-European branches, several Afro-Asiac, and so forth). I had too many cultures. After a long IM session with Snargash, I realized my goal was largely to represent (with the supercultures) the mythic backgrounds of various cultures in the time period in question. That meant that any culture which did not exist around 1st c BCE needed to be merged into another, and any culture where I did not have significant data points on their mythology needed to be merged (hence why I had spent almost a year collecting all that mythology data, most of which is now on the wiki--I scoured the internet and bought and read somewhere around 40 books on the subject to get all that).
In the case of Kapilites, I knew they would be arguably the most important culture in the story. So at the time in question, the areas represented (India, Nepal, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka) would have been largely the same culture. That leaves the other cultures I blended into it (Burmese, Thai, Vietnamese). The Burmese culture was heavily influenced by Indian mythology, so that was a no-brainer. Thai culture didn't really exist in any recognizable form, so I decided any indigenous people living their were genetic relatives of those in Burma. Vietnam was a hard choice, but I had found it very difficult to get sufficient mythological data on that culture, so I think I researched whether they were culturally and linguistically more similar to China or India, and decided they shared more with Burma and Thai, which I had made India.
You'll notice the "Greek" culture also includes Thracians, Dacians, Croatians, Albanians, and Illyrians, not all of which were even linguistically related. I could conceivably have merged in Italics, but because of world role Romans played at this time period, I felt it important to distinguish them culturally.
Limiting myself to 22 supercultures also makes the project slightly more manageable, but I should mention that each nation will still have its own subcultures, with slight variations in customs and language.
To some extent yes, though, Indo-European based cultures are naturally going to dominate, in part because they're often the ones easiest to find mythological info on. We have:
Indo-European: 8 (Celts; Germanics; Iranians; Indians; Anatolians; Italics; Balto-Slavs; Greek)
Asiatic: 4 (Korean; Japanese; Chinese; Central)
African: 4 (North; South & Central; East; West)
Semitic: 2 (Canaanite; Arabic)
Uralic: 1
Oceanic: 1
Australian: 1
Mesopotamian: 1
Anyway, even if it doesn't convince you, I hope it gives some insight into my reasoning.
Quote from: PhoenixIn the case of Kapilites, I knew they would be arguably the most important culture in the story. So at the time in question, the areas represented (India, Nepal, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka) would have been largely the same culture.
Anyway, even if it doesn't convince you, I hope it gives some insight into my reasoning.[/quote]
Yes, and I appreciate the insight. :) All of my stuff is just nitpicking, being pretty interested in South/Southeast Asia, myself.
QuoteHmm, there is the issue of Dravidians (South Indians) who are in many ways a culturally distinct group, speaking non Indo-European languages and such. Of course, there was a lot of cultural intermixing with North Indians, so a case could be made that it all belongs to a broader group
geographic[/i] Vietnam. The question is then, are they more genetically related to the people to the west or to the north, prior to their conquest (which would naturally impose its influences on their subculture). The conquest by China happened in 111 BC, which means it was relatively recent (7th c IA, I believe) in the history of the setting. But I don't expect even the geographic location to impact the story I'm telling, so it's not a focus (I just can't totally ignore a neighboring country either--it at least needs a name and a basic history).
Much of the mythology developed after the setting's time period, yes. But I'm not interested in the context for the development of mythology, I'm creating a world in which the mythology is true (and has been true all along). So I don't see contextual development as an issue--it's an alternate history where Atlantis was real, magic exists, and cosmic beings are trying to devour souls. It doesn't bother me if similar historical patterns develop in spite of differences in developmental stages.
So on the subject of the bestiary, I have been working on thinning it down a bit, and reclassifying some stuff. I'm interested in what you think.
I mentioned I decided to remove monopods and make ghouls corrupted field spirits.
I can see merging undines and sea spirits, making them a universal water spirit. And a complex entity. In turn, the Unseelie ones (rusalakas) could merge with unseelie sea spirits (telchines/marids).
I could possibly merge the idea of a ghost light with a death omen. I'm not sure how much sense a death omen makes as a corrupt marsh spirit, but I'm not even sure I want a marsh spirit. Of course I could make either or ghosts instead of fae, even though bean sidhe means fairy woman.
Mountain spirits and gnomes are still tempting to merge, though that creates an issue with the Unseelie cold spirits suddenly being conflated with goblins or having to look elsewhere for employment.
I could equate ogres and forest fiends, solving the last of the problems with one type of Seelie becoming two types of Unseelie. However, while both are cannibals, ogres and trolls are supposed to turn to stone in sunlight, so it made sense for them to come from gnomes, that have the same trait. But then so do goblins. <sigh>
Anyway, I'm thinking of eliminating the Hybrid and Metamorph fae categories.
I'm thinking that selkies can be undines possessing seals. I'm going to say a particular area between Scotland and the Orkney Isles is close to the underworld, and that area is rife with seals. So undines can possess them as a way into the mortal world.
Hellhounds and hellcats could possibly be imps possessing dogs or cats. The only problem is I'd still want them to exist in the underworld (Cerberus, Fenrir, etc.).
Cait Sith, Cu Sith could be attendant spirits possessing animals too.
A shedu could also be the natural form of an attendant spirit, I suppose.
Scorpion-men, minotaurs, fauns, centaurs, and vanaras can be mortal races living in the underworld. I really wanted to keep things human-only, but then I already called giants mortal races of the underworld. So maybe if these other creatures don't exist on Earth it's okay.
Tsuchigumo (spider-people) can be a type of therianthrope. Only really appeared in Japanese myth anyway, which was a problem for me.
A Nuckelavee can be a water horse variant. And a water horse can be a rusalaka (Unseelie undine) possessing a horse.
It still seems to me that beautiful sirens and hideous harpies represent a natural pair, not the same exact race, so I don't know what to do with them really. I also don't know where a unicorn/pegasus fits in, but it doesn't seem to be a monster, based on the way I defined monsters as weapons of destruction.
Quote from: PhoenixI could possibly merge the idea of a ghost light with a death omen. I'm not sure how much sense a death omen makes as a corrupt marsh spirit, but I'm not even sure I want a marsh spirit. Of course I could make either or ghosts instead of fae, even though bean sidhe means fairy woman.
all[/i], all you have to worry about is not overwhelming the reader with too much of this stuff at any one particular time.
Quote from: PhoenixI could equate ogres and forest fiends, solving the last of the problems with one type of Seelie becoming two types of Unseelie. However, while both are cannibals, ogres and trolls are supposed to turn to stone in sunlight, so it made sense for them to come from gnomes, that have the same trait. But then so do goblins. <sigh>
Cait Sith, Cu Sith could be attendant spirits possessing animals too.[/quote]Tsuchigumo (spider-people) can be a type of therianthrope. Only really appeared in Japanese myth anyway, which was a problem for me.[/quote]I also don't know where a unicorn/pegasus fits in, but it doesn't seem to be a monster, based on the way I defined monsters as weapons of destruction.[/quote]
Something else possessing a horse, maybe?
Anyway, I hope this has been some help. I don't know your bestiary nearly as well as you do, nor am I as up on the taxonomy of mythological creatures, but I've tried to contribute. If there's any other pages, specifically, you'd like me to look at, please tell me, otherwise I'll probably just try to continue to advise on things in this thread, and start poking through the Eschaton category.
The muse/attendant combination is neat idea that didn't occur to me.
I had originally kept undines and sea spirits separate because oceanids and freshwater were different in Gk myth, and because it seemed lake ladies should be separate from mermaids. But I'm leaning more toward the different varieties of water spirit idea now.
One thing I should note, I'm basically assuming all spirits are basically the same "species," (not actually a species at all) and what I'm describing are variants. Not only do mortals classify them, but they would classify themselves in the same way we classify ourselves culturally and ethnically.
Maybe the death omen should be a ghost. I've been somewhat fluid in interpreting the difference between a ghost, faerie, and demon (in mythology, not in the setting), so maybe it's okay. Hell, maybe the ghost light should be a ghost, too. If so, I could say the Marsh spirit is another kind of undine or forest spirit.
You know, at some point I had considered trolls and goblins being the same but dismissed it because of the size issue. I may have to reconsider. It would mean--because in myth there are so many "cannibal giants" I translated as ogre--that I would have to constantly explained which term meant which. But maybe ogre is a subspecies of giant goblin. Hmm.
Quote from: SparkletwistQuote from: PhoenixIt still seems to me that beautiful sirens and hideous harpies represent a natural pair, not the same exact race, so I don't know what to do with them really.
That's how it is now. But I'm trying to remove the "Hybrid" category, which means everything in it is becoming a mortal race, werebeast, or genius loci (or something else I haven't thought of). This was the one species that seemed so perfectly paired I didn't know that I wanted to break the pairing.
Something could be possessing a horse to create a unicorn, but it's the kind of thing that ought to exist in the Skysea (in the Underworld) too, which is the same problem I had with making hellhounds just possessed by imps.
If I think of specific questions, I'll let you know. The Eschaton wiki is arranged more-or-less hierarchically, such that any main-heading should lead you to a list of lesser headings. Meaning every page should be accessible without needing to following the mid-paragraph hyperlinks (which exist for encyclopedic clarity). So you can either pursue the top-level stuff all the way through and then delve down, or just pick an area that interests you and dig down. Browsing the Category page without reading the top-level stuff might lead to confusion, but maybe not, I don't know.
[blockquote=bIRDMAN from the ashes]You know, at some point I had considered trolls and goblins being the same but dismissed it because of the size issue. I may have to reconsider. It would mean--because in myth there are so many "cannibal giants" I translated as ogre--that I would have to constantly explained which term meant which. But maybe ogre is a subspecies of giant goblin. Hmm[/blockquote]
i like this. Divergent evolution, maybe.
Okay, then, I'll give a rundown of what the new simplified bestiary would look like with a description of each. In the case of spirits, I'll pair pure/corrupted variants together so it's easier to see.
Mortals
*Siddha - sorcerers
*Were-beasts
*Atlanteans (firbolg) - advanced humans
*Giants
*Undead
*Scorpion-men
*Vanara (monkey-men)
*Fauns/Serim (goat people)
*Centaurs
*Minotaurs
Monsters
Freakish animals created as weapons. Non-sentient.
*Chimera
*Griffins
*Mutants
*Sea Monsters
Spirits (Pure | Corrupt)
Primordials:
Archons | Devils
Primordials are non-corporeal entities with extreme power. Originally human, they achieved enlightenment with aid from Sophia and became (basically) gods. They are like super versions of cosmic beings.
It has occurred to me I could make Aeons Primordials, as they would better fit the name--first beings (doing so might mean including some other creatures in this category?). I could also make archons and devils cosmic beings (as it well describes their power), and make angels and demons something lesser (a fifth category?). Of course, the Primordials claim to be first beings, so maybe their ironic name works.
Cosmic Beings:
Angels | Demons
Aeons (don't fit well)
Basically lesser versions of Primordials. The word "angel" means messenger. So they serve as messengers of an archon or devil. They are also non-corporeal. Like Primordials, they can interact in the world and underworld only via possession.
Aeons do not possess and are, in fact, corporeal, and yet can also enter higher non-physical planes. They give me all kinds of problems ;)
Ghosts:
Shades | Spectres
Shades are untainted spirits unable to move on. They include Hungry Ghosts that crave a sustenance they can never find, phantoms that play out their deaths without a sense of reality, and death omens that lament the dying.
Spectres are tainted spirits that seek to harm the living. They include poltergeists that haunt places and cause mischief, ghost lights that lead people to their deaths, and wraiths that are sentient free-roaming beings of hatred.
Fae:
Animal Spirits | (none)
The universal spirit of bears, for example, Bear, is all bears everywhere, and part of it resides in werebears, too. Thoughts on this idea?
Dragons | Orms
Uncorrupt dragons are basically Eastern dragons (long dragons/nagas/tatsu), while the tainted ones (orms, sea serpents, basilisks, hydras, etc.) are the wicked Western dragons.
Genius Loci | Genius Loci
(Divided into subtypes)
Sylph (Air Elemental) | Storm Fiend (wanted a generic name, but don't love it)
Ephemeral, delicate-featured, winged spirits of air and storm.
Storm fiends may take form of birds, storm clouds, etc.
Gnome (Earth Elemental) | Goblin
Gnomes are gnarled stone and mountain spirits that mine, hoard treasure, craft, and turn to stone in sunlight. Their women (oreads) appear more like beautiful humans.
Goblins are even more gnarled and twisted than gnomes. A variety (ogres) grow to great height, but often at the price of their intelligence. Goblins eat people.
Salamander (Fire Elemental) | Afrit
Spirit of fire in form of a human, salamander, or smoke cloud.
Afrits are similar, but do not appear in salamander form. They live in the City of Brass.
*Somehow these seem boring compared to the other more complex elementals.
Undine (Water Elemental) | Marid/Rusalka
An undine is a spirit of water. Appears as a beautiful human, or sometimes a fish-human hybrid. They can possess animals such as seals or swans (spawning legends of selkies and swan maidens). They may live in undersea communities (as mermaids).
A rusalka loves to drown people. They may possess horses to do so (creating water horses). They may also take the form of beautiful people, fish, treasure, or other forms. They can also appear as mermaids and make war on their Seelie counterparts.
Field Spirit (Harvest Spirit) | Ghoul (Disease Spirit/Cannibal Spirit)
Field spirits can appear as beautiful people. They tend both natural pastures and cultivated fields.
*They may need additional forms or traits to be interesting.
Ghouls are cannibal spirits that eat the dead and spread disease. They possess those that practice unclean habits (such as cannibalism), granting the victim strength (and madness).
Forest Spirit (Dryad/Woodwose) | Forest Fiend (don't like the name)
Forest spirits are spirits of a wood, a tree, a marsh, or the like. Females appear as beautiful women, males as hairy wildmen. They are shy, but dangerous if angered.
Forest fiends are forest-dwelling cannibals, in twisted forms. They may make themselves look like plants, animals, or beautiful people to draw in victims.
Attendant Spirit | Imp
Attendant spirits (muses, etc.) bring health, prosperity, inspiration, or protection to civilization.
*What do they look like in their natural form, when not possessing someone to aid on the mortal world?
Imps are small twisted spirits that interact on the mortal world by possessing an animal and serving a sorcerer or playing tricks. Most are not strong enough to possess humans.
House Spirit | Bogie
House spirits are small beings that do chores around the house in exchange for treats.
Bogies are also small, though master shapeshifters. They feed on fear and cause mischief, torment, and nightmares.
*I'm uncertain how either of these interact with the mortal world. Other spirits possess something, but stories about these creatures make that seem a little off. They are both usually invisible and don't appear, so perhaps they are like ghosts in that way...Or maybe they possess small animals and shapeshift. I could also do something with the idea of changelings, I guess.
Unclassified (The Now Poor Homeless Creatures)
Succubus
A succubus (or an incubus in the case of a male) is a spirit of nightmares and lust. They seduce or rape sleepers, drawing away the victim's prana as a means of sustaining themselves and fueling their power. They also like to inflict horrific nightmares on their victims. They may appear as beautiful people or horrid hags.
*I guess this could be a kind of vampire...But I like the idea of a succubus possessing people
Siren | Harpy
Sirens are bird people that may lure people to their deaths with beautiful music (though this is usually inadvertent)
Harpies are hideous bird people with wings dipped in blood that slaughter.
Shedu
A bull with a human head that serves as a temple guardian. They may have wings. Always tell the truth.
Cait Sith | Hellcat
Mischievous faerie cats.
Destructive monster cats that wreck havoc.
Cu Sith | Hellhound
Faerie hounds.
Fiery guardians of Tartarus.
Unicorn/Pegasus/Kirin/Similar creatures
Usually noble, magical creatures of the underworld
It seems like you've put a lot of thought into this, and, in a general sense, I like what you've done. It seems to have a remarkable coherence to it considering the huge number of overlapping and varying mythologies you're trying to make fit together in a logical fashion. So, I do have to say that I like the general gist of it, regardless of any criticisms I may have of specific aspects of the way you've organized it.
Quote from: PhoenixAnimal Spirits | (none)
The universal spirit of bears, for example, Bear, is all bears everywhere, and part of it resides in werebears, too. Thoughts on this idea?
House spirits are small beings that do chores around the house in exchange for treats.
Bogies are also small, though master shapeshifters. They feed on fear and cause mischief, torment, and nightmares.
*I'm uncertain how either of these interact with the mortal world. Other spirits possess something, but stories about these creatures make that seem a little off.[/quote]Shedu
A bull with a human head that serves as a temple guardian. They may have wings. Always tell the truth.[/quote]Cait Sith | Hellcat
Mischievous faerie cats.
Destructive monster cats that wreck havoc.[/quote]
Provided you feel like reworking animal spirits into something more concrete (see my comments up there), these as well as Cu Sith/Hellhounds and maybe even unicorns etc. might be able to fit in there. Just a thought, anyway. :)
Some good things to think about now. Aeons were intended to be less powerful than Primordials (hence why I had put them in the next stage down, cosmic beings), so calling them elder gods (while technically true) could create a misconception of their level of power. Indeed, I have been thinking that perhaps they are not spirits at all but another kind of being entirely. I need to think about how I want to define the concept of "spirits" again.
QuoteThis category seems sort of weird, as there is no corrupted version and it seems pretty vague.
Perhaps they're more or less ephemeral, and they don't have any set appearance.[/quote]
I kind of said that originally, but now I'm thinking that fae and ghosts have no substances in the mortal world, but are completely physical in the underworld. Actually, I'm thinking maybe no spirit will have substance in the physical world--aeons could be something else. It screws up dragons, though.
Inanimate object idea works pretty well, actually. Lot of that in Japanese mythology.
I believe I had mostly folded love spirits into muses, but I could pull them back out to create love spirits.
On the shedu/minotaur, that was how it was before this attempt at revision, actually ;)
I think then, the route I'll go is to remove the Animal Spirits entirely. I can come up with another explanation from were-beasts without too much trouble.
[ooc]Is there a way on the wiki to see what pages link to a page. So if I remove a page, I can easily find all the pages that need rewriting for it?[/ooc]
Love spirits provide the right match for succubi.
I can say faerie dogs/hell hounds, unicorns, etc. are monsters. I would then change the definition of monster to be slightly different (otherworldly animals not found on Earth, maybe). Monsters are not spirits, so I couldn't have the corrupt/pure dichotomy (good in some cases, bad in the cases of faerie dogs/hellhounds). Really it means I'll recombine the dogs back into a single creature and say it takes on varying traits (color, etc.) based on its master and mission. The plus side, is monsters can physically exist on Earth.
So I'd like to define Spirits, then, as non-material beings. Fae and ghosts have physical forms in the underworld, while Primordials and cosmic beings have none at all. As I mentioned previously, Spirits are the only beings which have pure/corrupted natures.
Aeons, as physical beings, will need to go in a new category. I'm considering the name Primordials should be applied to this category which might be more like the Greek Protogenoi (primeval beings born at the same time as the universe).
This would actually leave my biggest remaining question as what to do with dragons. Dragons, mythologically, are water elemental creatures (particular Eastern ones), so it made sense to call them fae (nature spirits). Dragons, I think, need to be material beings, and capable of existing on Earth as well as their homes in the underworld. Also, taking away their pure/corrupt dichotomy is not really desirable, as I feel like it explains the disparity in appearance and character between Eastern and Western dragons.
Saying dragons were fae allowed me to say the siddha are the descendants of fae and allow it to include dragons, nymphs, succubi, and so forth. Now, I'm not so sure where siddha will come from, though I'm sure I still want it involve fae. If fae can interact with mortals only through possession, perhaps a fae that possesses a human and breeds can transfer some aspect of this power. Perhaps it's something involving changelings. I know I see it as majorly important that it can be transmitted by bloodlines.
However, Indian myth mentions a few categories where a naga woman bears the child of a human man. Redefining dragons may make this more difficult, and I had intended to use one of those characters.
On the shedu: I have considered that this may represent the true form of some attendant spirits. Perhaps they have vastly varied forms.
So this is what I think I have spirits paired down to now. I'm pretty happy with it, despite some lingering doubts about other things.
Spirit Form Diagram
[th]Pure[/th][th]Corrupt[/th]
[th colspan="2"]Cosmic Beings[/th]
Archon | Devil |
[th colspan="2"](Messengers; need name)[/th]
Angel | Demon |
[th colspan="2"]Fae[/th]
Sylph | Storm Fiend (need better name) |
Gnome | Goblin |
Salamander | Afrit |
Undine | Rusalka |
Field Spirit | Ghoul |
Dryad | Forest Fiend (need better name) |
Attendant Spirit | Imp |
House Spirit | Bogie |
Love Spirit | Succubus |
[th colspan="2"]Ghosts[/th]
Shade | Spectre |
I think most of the former hybrids will now be mortal races.
The metamorphs and animal-like beings can be monsters.
I'm thinking the word Primordials will now apply to Aeons and other beings existing from the dawn of time (if any other such beings exist). I've considered maybe Tiamat or similar beings.
This means I could say dragons are monsters, a mortal race, or a kind of Primordial. Any choice has some downside. First, especially in the case of a mortal race or monster, they are not spirits and thus could no longer give rise to siddha (see previous post for why that bugs me). I could say they are Primordials in virtue of being children of Tiamat, if she's one--but that term seems less appropriate because they themselves are not coming down from the dawn of time.
But I am still happy to have been able to simplify this much. I feel like the spirits have really been streamlined to the necessary minimum.
Quote from: PhoenixI can say faerie dogs/hell hounds, unicorns, etc. are monsters.
...
This would actually leave my biggest remaining question as what to do with dragons.
However, Indian myth mentions a few categories where a naga woman bears the child of a human man. Redefining dragons may make this more difficult, and I had intended to use one of those characters.[/quote]I feel like the spirits have really been streamlined to the necessary minimum. [/quote]
I do like the new chart. It's very simple and logical! :)
Thanks on the table. I think it'll make it easier to see the connections than typing them out.
I need a new name for the angel/demon category (previously I called them cosmic beings, but I think I'll use that name for archons and devils). I suppose I could make them all cosmic beings, and have two types of each, though.
Quote from: PhoenixSaying dragons were fae allowed me to say the siddha are the descendants of fae and allow it to include dragons, nymphs, succubi, and so forth. Now, I'm not so sure where siddha will come from, though I'm sure I still want it involve fae. If fae can interact with mortals only through possession, perhaps a fae that possesses a human and breeds can transfer some aspect of this power.
You mean you like how it was that dragons were fae?
Or you mean you like the idea that a possessing fae could pass on traits if it breeds?
I've been thinking recently that siddha will all be descendants of the ruling class in the Lemurian Empire.
Quote from: PhoenixHowever, Indian myth mentions a few categories where a naga woman bears the child of a human man. Redefining dragons may make this more difficult, and I had intended to use one of those characters.
What do you mean half-breed? Naga is the Indian name for Eastern dragons. In Eschaton, they are identical the Chinese long dragon. I actually want to avoid any idea of half-races in Eschaton. It's why siddha are human in all ways, but also carry a supernatural ability.
I suppose I'm mainly hung up on the idea of the myth of Arjuna and Ulupi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulupi) (naga princess), who had a son (Iravan). This happens during the Mahabharata, which is current events in Eschaton. So I had intended to use those characters, and to make future characters descended from them.
But dragons do not fit well into the spirit hierarchy anymore. They're not spirits of place like other fae. They're not non-material like all other spirits. Maybe the easiest answer is not to allow dragons to create offspring with humans.
I'm not totally opposed to a fourth category of beings (currently there's mortals, monsters, and spirits), and in fact if I added Primordials (for aeons), that would be a forth category. So I could put supernatural animals there.
Alternatively, if I said dragons were Primordials, I could say any Primordial that can take human form can produce a human child, as well.
The more I think about it, the more I think the best thing is to disregard the Arjuna & Ulupi incident for now and not let dragons give rise to human heirs. Perhaps later I can make a special note about them. I think for now I'll call them monsters.
Edit: Actually, I'm thinking of defining the categories thus:
Spirits: Non-material beings
Monsters: Unnatural created beings
Mortals: Physical races (which may not actually all be mortal)
Primordials: Unborn (Preexisting Entities)
Which would mean dragons would just be another mortal race with supernatural powers, like giants.
Quote from: PhoenixWhat do you mean half-breed? Naga is the Indian name for Eastern dragons. In Eschaton, they are identical the Chinese long dragon. I actually want to avoid any idea of half-races in Eschaton. It's why siddha are human in all ways, but also carry a supernatural ability.
Ulupi[/url] (naga princess), who had a son (Iravan). This happens during the Mahabharata, which is current events in Eschaton. So I had intended to use those characters, and to make future characters descended from them.[/quote]Actually, I'm thinking of defining the categories thus:
Spirits: Non-material beings
Monsters: Unnatural created beings
Mortals: Physical races (which may not actually all be mortal)
Primordials: Unborn (Preexisting Entities)
Which would mean dragons would just be another mortal race with supernatural powers, like giants.[/quote]
I like this! Maybe if all "mortals" aren't actually mortal, a more fitting name might be "Terrestials", "Corporeals", or something else suiting their nature, without introducing that potential misconception, though?
Yeah, in fantasy depictions nagas are often human from the waist up. In mythology, they are demi-god cobras, some of which can take human form (though in art, a hybrid depiction would make their nature clear when a human one wouldn't). They are equated to the Chinese long (especially in Buddhism).
The Kurukshetra War would be some years in the future. The preamble years and exile would be current.
Corporeals sounds like a good idea, though monsters and Primordials are also corporeal. Terrestials would seem to imply Earth-based, and most of them live in the underworld.
I've been taking a look at the different peoples/cultures.
I like the pictures you've chosen for all of the different people. It gives a look at each culture, and, since most of the pages are currently stubs, it at least gives something to look at for each culture, to get a feeling about it. On one hand, I wonder if it might not lead to "stereotyping," sort of-- always a bane of fantasy, at least in my opinion-- but on the other hand, people of different cultures do have traditional garb and whatnot, and I think as an overview, there's nothing wrong with showing them in it.
As I mentioned before, all of the names ending in -ite seems a little monotonous and when they're all listed together, it gets a little confusing. However, I think it's largely the result of seeing them all in a big list (such as on the main "Cultures" page) and it's not a terribly bad thing. However, I do have another thought on this matter. From what I've seen, you're playing your cultures pretty close to their inspirations. Granted, I don't know everything there is to know about these ancient cultures, so if there are significant differences that I've overlooked, then please correct me-- but, as it stands, it seems like the cultures you've created have (and are intended to have) a pretty good correspondence with one or two actual ancient cultures each. The question that this raises, then, is-- is it really doing anything but introducing confusion by renaming everything? Right now, I have to look up each culture and name, to know what's that: that the Deucalites are the Greeks, the Mulcibites are the Romans, and so on. I understand that you want to separate the world of Eschaton from our real world and our real history, so there's some argument for separation, but in terms of the readers being able to understand-- particularly if you're going to be using a lot of different names of cultures, locales, and whatnot-- there's probably a case to be made for making some of the names more recognizable, as well. Things may be too far along to be able to do this easily, on the other hand, it's not going to get any easier as time goes on, and as someone who is not as familiar with the setting I do have to say there's kind of a significant obstacle here. It may be partially my fault for not knowing where to start and trying to absorb it all at once, as I'm sure every setting, if you just put all the names in a list and try to keep them straight, is going to get confusing. Yet, you have a major advantage in being able to leverage people's real-world geographic and historic knowledge, and it seems like right now, you're not taking advantage of it. Just my two cents. :)
Some of the pictures were harder to find than others. Some of the hardest ones might have surprised you, too.
I have, myself, vacillated back and forth wondering whether renaming everything was the right decision. It makes things harder to get into, sometimes.
But it has some advantages. For example (as with Robert Howard and Conan), it means I can use aspects of a historical setting without worrying that someone will me and say my Celts are "wrong." They're not wrong, because they're not really Celts, they're inspired by Celts and then adapted to my needs.
Secondly, it means I can add my own little unique flavors to the cultures as the mood strikes me. In the case of Mulcibites, that was glyph tattoos.
Thirdly, in respect to places, it allowed me to use the mythological locations--a goal--without having to make up new places. Sure, in Arthurian legend Listeinese certainly wasn't Hispania, but it worked for me.
And as for the cultures themselves, the names are all derived from a particular messiah. In the case of Mulcibites, that is Mulciber. I see this as a major aspect of the world, and I want to play it up as much as possible, both for setting and for plot reasons. Having every culture take their very name from a mythical figure seemed like a way to do that. (Every culture is in fact named after a figure from their real-world inspirations mythology.)
QuoteThe question that this raises, then, is-- is it really doing anything but introducing confusion by renaming everything?
It may be partially my fault for not knowing where to start and trying to absorb it all at once, as I'm sure every setting, if you just put all the names in a list and try to keep them straight, is going to get confusing.[/quote]
You're right, of course. When starting a new fantasy series, for example, I feel like I need a certain mental inertia to dive into the world that's not need to continue reading a series where I already have a basis in.
Since this was one of the founding principles of the setting and its story, I'd be reluctant to change (the workload aside). I could, however, try to upload more of those map files to each instance of the location template. Would that help?
To be honest, the most important cultures (in terms of what I'm working on story-wise) are the Mulcibites, Anannites, and Kapilites. The rest are fairly secondary, so I wouldn't worry too much about them if you're trying to figure out where to start.
Edit: Perhaps the better answer is a "start here" walk through like Luminous did for JS. Eschaton, after all, is a lot of pages and 22 cultures.
My current thinking has been for some minor revisions of the cosmology. I have written out the paramatma as unnecessary (its distinction from Brahman) was slight. However, I have decided that the World Tree itself will fulfill the role of guiding the Wheel of Rebirth. All dead souls that have not achieved enlightenment (those that do go back to the Absolute) are drawn into the World Tree to be reborn in their next incarnation.
Those unable to let go of life become ghosts.
Those of great power may become faeries.
Others are born on Earth as humans or animals depending on the power of their souls.
Quote from: CosmologyAs a soul traverses its many lives, its actions (karma) cause it to evolve and gain strength. This gain in power is part of what allows a soul to be born as fae or otherwise incarnate itself into a position of power.
So I'm thinking this soul power is what other spirits have to feed on to gain power (and to remain manifested and not get drawn back into the World Tree in the case of ghosts and fae). In time, the power of fae and ghosts dwindles and must be replenished, or their karma is used up and they are drawn back in.
It's more concrete than before, still slightly more nebulous than I'd like.
One problem I have is that in the source material (Dharmic religions), karma is good or bad, and that determines where you are reborn. But to me, that implies a kind of objective ordering in the universe that I'm not sure Eschaton can support. Certainly, it's a morally ambiguous setting. So while I can see violence upon another soul leaving a mark on your own, I find it a little harder to give a definitive explanation of why one is born where. Hence, redefining the karmic ideal as your soul gaining power its experiences. But the question here, is what can constitute such experiences such that some will gain it (progressing higher) while others lose it (and become animals in another lifetime).
I am also left with the question of how a soul (presumably a ghost) gets pulled into Tartarus. Traditionally, the idea was you'd be punished there (Naraka) until your bad karma is paid off. The archons used it as an eternal prison for their enemies, and that's swell, and the Unseelie just live there. But maybe I need to say Yama or someone else actually forces shades down their, rather than them just being born there.
The Buddhist Bhavacaka (Wheel of Life) has six realms of rebirth (deva, asure, human, animal, ghost, hell), so it's kind of loosely based on that, but a direct translation didn't work. (For one thing, in Eschaton, the cosmic beings are immortal and not born, so I didn't think people should get incarnated as them without some help. But then it happened with the archons...so?)
I believe I have finished my revision of the bestiary (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bestiary_%28Eschaton%29). I'm fairly pleased with the overall simplification, and with making spirits incorporeal on the physical plane.
I've got some lingering questions. One, is whether having multiple aliases within a culture produces any positive result within a story, or just confusion. On the one hand, I was eager to represent as many different mythical creatures as possible. On the other, I wanted a stream-lined, limited list of creatures. So I said that a creature was known by different names in different places. I'm happy with this between cultures. But consider something like the hellhound/cu sith (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Hellhound_%28Eschaton%29) where the Anannites (Celtic peoples) have a bazillion different names for it. All names from mythology, many associated with different locations in the setting. But still, is anything gained for doing this? I know, for example, with Sophia (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sophia) it's really nice that she has one alias in each and every culture, and only one each. It's cleaner.
I also don't know what to do with the Hecatonchires (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Hecatonchires). They had been angels physically incarnated to watch the titans. Since spirits can't physically incarnate anymore, I'm less certain what to do with them. Mutanted giants, I suppose. For that matter, I need to revise how I defined the titans (Grigori), since they were incarnated angels, too. (The giants/nephilim are the offspring of the titans and humans.)
I'm also wondering if I should separate phoenixes from aeons (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Aeons_%28Eschaton%29). I think I had originally decided phoenixes were incarnations of aeons partly because I didn't have anywhere else to classify a phoenix. Now, they could be unrelated types of Primordial, if that seems wise.
Quote from: PhoenixPerhaps the better answer is a "start here" walk through like Luminous did for JS. Eschaton, after all, is a lot of pages and 22 cultures.
Those unable to let go of life become ghosts.
Those of great power may become faeries.
Others are born on Earth as humans or animals depending on the power of their souls.[/quote]The Buddhist Bhavacaka (Wheel of Life) has six realms of rebirth (deva, asure, human, animal, ghost, hell), so it's kind of loosely based on that, but a direct translation didn't work. (For one thing, in Eschaton, the cosmic beings are immortal and not born, so I didn't think people should get incarnated as them without some help. But then it happened with the archons...so?)[/quote]I also don't know what to do with the Hecatonchires. They had been angels physically incarnated to watch the titans. Since spirits can't physically incarnate anymore, I'm less certain what to do with them.[/quote]I'm also wondering if I should separate phoenixes from aeons. I think I had originally decided phoenixes were incarnations of aeons partly because I didn't have anywhere else to classify a phoenix. Now, they could be unrelated types of Primordial, if that seems wise.[/quote]
I think it's only wise if the story can support that. If they just seem tacked on, that's no good. And phoenixes are too cool to seem like they just got tacked on!
Quote from: sparkletwistI will say, though, that none of the messiah names particularly stood out to me. Maybe that's by design, so I don't know.
One idea is to further take a page out of the Buddhist book and decide that cosmic beings are mortal after all. They could be very long-lived, or preserve their memories through their various reincarnations, or both, to allow them to keep some of their special qualities, but this would solve one of the problems, I think.[/quote]I think it's only wise if the story can support that. If they just seem tacked on, that's no good. And phoenixes are too cool to seem like they just got tacked on![/quote]
The truth is, the phoenixes are important because of their avatars. Besides Theletus (Prometheus), Sophia, and Caen, the aeons were only important as those phoenixes. But with aeons being now wholly physical beings, it seems kind of weird they just transform into a new kind of creature (as opposed to when I said they where spirits, which are kind of naturally incorporeal).
Anyway, you gave me some things to mull over.
Quote from: STOne idea is to redefine "bad karma" for your purposes as not some objective morality but rather a taint that is placed on your own soul, and something that has to be resolved before one can be reborn into higher forms. In this way, it's actually something you've already done, with the various corrupted forms of spirits. If you want to think of it this way, it could be kind of like the corruption that black magic introduces. You could even connect it with the Cythrawl and bring it into your greater cosmology, really.
What if they were humans or monsters, or something, ostensibly-- but were powerful spirits in a previous life? This might work better if you make certain powerful cosmic beings not immortal, but it'd let you tie everything into your grand reincarnation system, and also provide a little bit of a loophole for cases like this.[/quote]I think it's only wise if the story can support that. If they just seem tacked on, that's no good. And phoenixes are too cool to seem like they just got tacked on![/quote]
The truth is, the phoenixes are important because of their avatars. Besides Theletus (Prometheus), Sophia, and Caen, the aeons were only important as those phoenixes. But with aeons being now wholly physical beings, it seems kind of weird they just transform into a new kind of creature (as opposed to when I said they where spirits, which are kind of naturally incorporeal).
Anyway, you gave me some things to mull over.
The Wheel of Rebirth
The Wheel of Rebirth is the World Tree, which draws in the souls of the dead and reincarnates them into new lives (as humans, ghosts, animals, fae, or the lesser gods).
The gods (archons) would say the Wheel exists for the sole purpose of binding souls to the world so that the gods can feed off the energy of those souls again and again. A drained soul cannot evolve, and is shunted back down the karmic ladder (possibly weakened to the point it can only incarnate as a lower animal).
So, in keeping with Sparkletwist's advice, spirits are not immortal, but rather long-lived. They can, however, prolong their existence indefinitely be feeding on souls. This is the purpose of the Wild Hunt--the fae send their huntsman and his hellhounds to gather souls and drag them back to the underworld so that the important fae can feed on the souls and prolong their lives.
Quote from: PhoenixOn the subject of aliases, it kind of sounds like you're in favor of basically having one name for each creature for each culture.
So, in keeping with Sparkletwist's advice, spirits are not immortal, but rather long-lived. They can, however, prolong their existence indefinitely be feeding on souls. This is the purpose of the Wild Hunt--the fae send their huntsman and his hellhounds to gather souls and drag them back to the underworld so that the important fae can feed on the souls and prolong their lives[/quote]
Not to sound like I'm tooting my own horn since this came from my own advice, but I do like this, and I like that you managed to work the Wild Hunt-- which is one of my favorite Germanic mythological thingies-- into it, and give it a purpose.
One thing I'm thinking about now:
If every spirit has to feed on souls to sustain itself, what reason do they have for not running rampant? Why would demons have to tempt souls rather than just taking them? It's easy to say the soul has to be willing (or have agreed to the price), but for something like the Wild Hunt, clearly the soul is not willing.
There needs to be some kind of restriction on it, but something that makes sense within the context of the setting.
Quote from: PhoenixIf every spirit has to feed on souls to sustain itself, what reason do they have for not running rampant? Why would demons have to tempt souls rather than just taking them? It's easy to say the soul has to be willing (or have agreed to the price), but for something like the Wild Hunt, clearly the soul is not willing.
Perhaps willing/not willing isn't some binary thing, but instead, a typical soul has a great deal of inner strength to draw from, something that your average being, even a powerful one, can't overcome. Each soul, however frail the person may seem to be, is actually quite strong. This can tie into Brahman, or the reincarnation system, or something else, if you want to give it cosmic significance-- maybe they have to be strong to overcome the trials of samsara (do you use that term? I don't remember), or whatnot. Anyway, a lone demon or other thing can't overcome this strength, and they must resort to temptation and trickery. The Wild Hunt, on the other hand, being a large mob, can resort to a sort of soul-gang-rape and overcome it.
As far as the Wild Hunt, I'd clarify the idea is they take the souls back to the Celestial Emperor, and he awards them to those that have pleased him (and obviously keeps some to retain his own immortality).
Certainly, only the strong souls have enough strength to be worth feeding on, so that's a thought. Perhaps such souls are not common, for the simple fact that any that start to reach that stage look so yummy.