The Campaign Builder's Guild

So I'd thought I'd make a thread of this for some feedback, ideas, and what not. I'm also looking for partners in crime if you want in.

This setting would fall under low-fantasy for sure. Humans would be the only race, but regional variations, etc., would provide variation - for example, people from the city of Patha would see themselves as Pathese, never as "humans". I want cultures that are extremely rich, detailed, and non-cliched. Although I hate creating areas that are re-hashed areas of Earth, overall the setting would have more of a Middle-Eastern, Mediterranean, Levant, North African vibe.

In addition to cultures, religions, politics, etc. would all be rendered very realistically (in the sense of how humans act, not in the sense that I want them mirrored from real-world examples, even though influences are bound to occur.)

I'm still on the fence about magic, but it will be rare as can be, most people may not even believe in it. It would be ritual and study heavy, things like necromancy, seances, demonology, stuff like that.

And as for the flora and fauna, I think it would be neat to recreate ecosystems from more or less the ground up using non-Earth animals. No horses or cows for instance. The new creatures and plants would be different, but normal in the world.

As for things to think of to get the feel, works like Dune, ASOIAF, history, Wheel of Time - stuff like that.

I know this is really a broad thing to throw out. Questions are always welcome. Also, would it help if I whipped up some setting information to better get the feel across?

UPDATE : As I mentioned down farther, the main conflicts and theme of this setting would be surrounding the questions and answers of "what is our purpose as humans?"

The first and most important thing to get down, and also to tell us about, is what you want the setting to do, say, or just generally express.  At least I'd find it very helpful.  Right now you could be talking about any number of variety of worlds, it doesn't help narrow down ideas.

that's a good. right now, to me at least, would be a both an exercise in world building and imagination (obviously), but also an exercise on the human conditions of religion, tradition, superstition, and culture. I suppose the main source of conflict would be both within those mentioned conditions, but also the conflict that revolves around the question of "what is our purpose as the only sentient species?" - which will be answered differently by everyone.

That turned out very Nietzsche-esque, but I hope that answers that question.

OK, here is a quick snippet of a possible city in the setting.



Sitting upon the warm, shallow waters of the Mouth of Asal, the city of Patha is the southern most of the Seven Cities and the gateway to the fabled riches and timeless kingdoms across the Great Ocean. Glimmering domes of bronze shine beneath slender minarets covered in ornate tiling. High above the city proper, sits the Palace of Shadowed Splendors, from where the scheming merchant-princes of the city reign.

The harbor of Patha is perhaps the busiest of all the Seven Cities. A fluttering sea of canvas sails in reds, blues, yellows, and whites, the dhows and baghlahs holding in their bellies the fiery wines of Iskanda, sea-rice and salted fish from the Verdant East, slaves and weapons of rippled-steel from Galaghah, jade and feathers from across the Great Ocean, and the softest silks and cotton cloth from sweltering Dishi. Countless slaves work the docks, hauling cargo to and fro ships, cogs in the plutocratic schemes of the merchant princes.

As a people, the Pathese are lean and lithe, their skin bronzed under the hot southern sun. Men and women alike shave their heads and favor light and opaque tunics of white, yellow, or blue linen. Bronze jewelry is favored above all other, with simple, polished bands and anklets common. Of the people of the Seven Cities, the Pathese are considered the most beautiful, but also to be somewhat haughty and aloof.

To the Pathese, power, success, and wealth are the most important values. To them, the quest for material and aesthetic gain is the most inherent and defining trait of what it is to be human. They are not a particularly religious people, and tend to focus on the experiences and luxuries this world has to offer.

Quote from: LeetzUPDATE: As I mentioned down farther, the main conflicts and theme of this setting would be surrounding the questions and answers of "what is our purpose as humans?"

Quote from: Leetz"what is our purpose as the only sentient species?" - which will be answered differently by everyone.

Well you've certainly set yourself up a big question.  I suppose the low-fantasy, low-magic does help keep the focus.  I'm guessing from your example sources you're not looking for cinematic action but you want this place as real as possible without being real history.  What do the rebuilt ecosystems add?  Are they intended to make players/readers analyze the use of animal symbols that are normally taken for granted by removing the familiar ones we know?

Well not really, I just always thought it was "cheating" to make some totally new world, but then use horses and cows and pigs. I think it adds an enormous amount of depth and flavor to a setting to have believable and new creatures, food-stuffs, etc.  

And as for the question, I think it would be interesting to have a large degree of development in culture, philosophy, even technology. But I was thinking about eliminating pack or work animals, as Meso-America lacked, as well as creating a world - in the sense of a planet - that was inherently low in heavy metals, fossil fuels, and mostly everything else that allowed our Earth to advance industrially and mechanically.

Having a realistic world with thousands of years of history, but lacking the resources that we commonly link to technology, would lead to some extremely interesting and unique things - I think. Things like monotheistic, dogmatic religions, well-developed trade, advanced arts and culture, understandings of things like algebra, meta-physics, deep philosophy, astronomy (I think that's the right word), gravity, etc. would all be completely plausible and existent in the setting. However, things like industrialization, wide-spread machines, advanced farming based on animal and machine labor, tech like fire-arms or explosives, development of fast communication, and things like that would not be possible or existent.

So on one hand, you have human beings who have advanced as far, if not farther, than we have in some areas, while on the other hand, the world they live in would be stagnated at certain level of development due to the lack of resources.

Quote from: LeetzWell not really, I just always thought it was "cheating" to make some totally new world, but then use horses and cows and pigs. I think it adds an enormous amount of depth and flavor to a setting to have believable and new creatures, food-stuffs, etc.  

So, having a totally new world with pigs in it is "cheating" because pigs exist in the real world, but having humans in a new world is not cheating? I don't find that very logical.

It's all well and good to come up with new fantastic critters and perhaps discard some real ones. But unless you replace all the species, you'll still end up with a world that is populated, at best, by a mix of common and made-up plants & animals. And there are thousands of known species of just mammals alone...

Quote from: LeetzHaving a realistic world with thousands of years of history, but lacking the resources that we commonly link to technology, would lead to some extremely interesting and unique things - I think. Things like monotheistic, dogmatic religions, well-developed trade, advanced arts and culture, understandings of things like algebra, meta-physics, deep philosophy, astronomy (I think that's the right word), gravity, etc. would all be completely plausible and existent in the setting. However, things like industrialization, wide-spread machines, advanced farming based on animal and machine labor, tech like fire-arms or explosives, development of fast communication, and things like that would not be possible or existent.

Cool idea. Any reason why gunpowder wouldn't be discovered at some point though? You'd need sufficient materials and metallurgy to construct firearms of corse, but gunpowder on it's own could still be used as an explosive.

Your first point is a good one. I guess I was trying to get at the fact that most settings focus on the higher aspects of the campaign - like magic, monsters, gods, etc. - without putting a bit of work towards the more mundane, which in my opinion at least, can add a lot more flavor and umph to a setting than a new god can. But that's really besides the point right now I suppose.

And yeah, I don't see why gunpowder really couldn't exist. The three main components - sulfur, potassium nitrate, and charcoal are easy enough to get a hold of. I just have to figure out reasons of why it isn't wide spread, I was thinking it would be the domain of alchemists and "wizards."

Taboo could explain it, so could a monopoly on the trade and manufacture of gunpowder. Sulfur could also be a rare resource, and if I wanted to push it, so could lumber, and hence charcoal to an extent. Or maybe it stagnated in military usefulness. Gunpowder was in part a response to counter heavily armored troops, so in theory, if heavy armor never developed, gunpowder would not be needed so badly. Fast, light, mobile troops could easily outflank gunpowder based troops, rendering them somewhat superfluous.

But I suppose even if they did develop gunpowder technology, it would stay in the area of bronze-based cannons and barrels, as iron and hence steel would be far to rare and valuable to use on something as unpredictable as a gun barrel.

Also, the technology level would be roughly that of the Islamic Golden Age. Actually, a lot of everything - culture, technology, sciences - will be heavily influenced by that Golden Age.

Well that is at least an intriguing angle.  So it would be Islamic Golden Age with bronze technology instead of steel?  Are the copper and tin (especially tin) used in bronze going to be more common than they were in the real world?

I would actually like to avoid using metals almost entirely, and instead getting creative about how other materials would have developed along different lines, things like glass, ceramics, bone, cloth, or other minerals.

And it would be very, very vaguely Islamic Golden Age, that's the period in our history as close as I can relate what I'm shooting for with this one. It would be influenced by this period as much as, say, the novel Dune was.

Ceramics, at least in general, are composite materials and are relatively advanced. (well discounting glass and clay).

well yeah I know, but I was just throwing things out there.

But there also has to be some suspension of disbelief for things that could have happened. Maybe a ceramic-like material that was constructed chemically rather than through pressure.

This would be an advanced setting, just not in how we think of advanced. Technology could have taken drastically different routes throughout our history, I just think it would be fun to explore these.

I like it.
 I vote for no wheels. Like the maya.

May I just say:
I love it.

  I think it would be extremelly intriging to see how things would have turned out without certain materials. This is an entirely new angle. I am interested on what you're ideas were for animals and plants, and I would be more then happy to help with those ideas, if you need any help. So yes, I would want to be one of your partners in crime, specifically in fleshing out smaller stuff like flora and fauna. In short: really cool, i'm definatly going to keep up with this. :D

Fantastic! Well, let me waste my workday thinking further about things.

But technological development is only one of the angles that I want to approach. Human development and evolution is something extremely interesting to ponder on.

For example, without the eventual rise of computers, maybe some humans would form a guild of human-calculators, or maybe some would train their memories so well as to be living libraries - picture a shadowy cloister of muttering, semi-catatonic people hooked up to IVs of some kind of serum where all they do is remember and recite information, creepy but cool. In my opinion, at least, I think this all is plausible, if not possible. Without the advancement of technology to focus our energies into, who knows what we could do with ourselves.

And this would not only be in the mental sense, but physical as well. I know the super-trained assassin is cliche, but different types of meta-martial arts would be extremely interesting - warriors who manipulate their nervous system to become immune to pain, or others who can speed up their mental synapses for short bursts (basically a haste spell).

I'm almost at the point of totally excluding magic, there is just so much cool stuff that doesn't have to depend on it.

Quote from: Leetzwarriors who manipulate their nervous system to become immune to pain, or others who can speed up their mental synapses for short bursts (basically a haste spell).

I'm almost at the point of totally excluding magic, there is just so much cool stuff that doesn't have to depend on it.

Seems kind of mutually exclusive to me :P I mean, your saying one is essentially magic (and it isn't, as far as we know, actually possible).

Now, as for human calculators, check out savantism, something certain people with autism have. There are your human calculators.

There's a case from turn of the century Russia about a man who literally could not forget anything unless he tried. He would be a good case for your living library type person.

That being said, why would these people be shadowy? Seems like near functional people could manage it, I guess its just a flavour/atmostphere thing so what I've mentioned is just another idea.

The Dune series actually did the human calculator thing. Apparently they weren't too fond of computers after they rose up against them :) Probably some Dune scholars on the board who could say more about it...
My setting also has non-magical meta-disciplines which allow for slightly preternatural feats so i would be hard pressed to call that a bad idea :P

Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowThe Dune series actually did the human calculator thing. Apparently they weren't too fond of computers after they rose up against them :) Probably some Dune scholars on the board who could say more about it...
My setting also has non-magical meta-disciplines which allow for slightly preternatural feats so i would be hard pressed to call that a bad idea :P

We could, but you pretty much caught the highlights :)

There were laws against "thinking machines" following the Butlerian Jihad -- a war between humanity and the machines thousands of years before the series. That was one of the main reasons technology largely stagnated.

Quote from: SurvivormanMay I just say:
I love it.

  I think it would be extremelly intriging to see how things would have turned out without certain materials. This is an entirely new angle. I am interested on what you're ideas were for animals and plants, and I would be more then happy to help with those ideas, if you need any help. So yes, I would want to be one of your partners in crime, specifically in fleshing out smaller stuff like flora and fauna. In short: really cool, i'm definatly going to keep up with this. :D

[Plug]In that case, how about signing up for the Review Partnering thread Leetz? We'll make you two the first official partners. We desperately need help getting that project off the ground.[/plug]

Using people as living libraries seems suspicious given that the setting is supposed to have an advanced civilization (if not technologically/materially so). Although it is possible to store and pass information by memorization, it is not a very practical way to do it.

There are good reasons why mankind has been remarkably creative in coming up with better and easier ways to record knowledge. Different peoples the world over have independently developed various writing systems, using a wide range of materials and tools: carving symbols on slabs of stone, pressing them on soft clay, painting them on a strip of wood, writing them by brush or pen on sheets made of papyri or animal hide or paper. But even in absense of all these things you could find effective ways to make records. The Incas for example, developed a complex system of "writing" that was based on knotted cords!

It's not wholly unplausible that the world would remain completely illiterate for so long, but it is definitely odd. About the only explanation one can give for this condition is that "no one has thought about it yet".

Quote from: GhostmanUsing people as living libraries seems suspicious given that the setting is supposed to have an advanced civilization (if not technologically/materially so). Although it is possible to store and pass information by memorization, it is not a very practical way to do it.

That's not the point of them.  The point of them is as a quick-access reference system, like computer records.  You'd still have the books, but if you needed to know something in a book now and don't have time to search you'd ask the living libraries.

Like a walking talking google?

Now there's an idea. Of corse, it would only work if you have the mnemoniac following you around, so that he's always there when you need to ask something. And they'd need to get their knowledge updated from time to time. They could be slaves bred specifically for this ability, or fed with drugs to enhance their memory.

Quote from: GhostmanOf corse, it would only work if you have the mnemoniac following you around, so that he's always there when you need to ask something......fed with drugs to enhance their memory.

This was basically how it worked in Dune, as far as I know.

But it's not hard to imagine someone rich who needs information employing (or owning) these sorts of people.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: GhostmanOf corse, it would only work if you have the mnemoniac following you around, so that he's always there when you need to ask something......fed with drugs to enhance their memory.

This was basically how it worked in Dune, as far as I know.

But it's not hard to imagine someone rich who needs information employing (or owning) these sorts of people.

The wealthy hired mentats because computers were forbidden. Mentats were not only calculators and had eidetic memories, but were generally trained in other disciplines, so they could serve as tutors (or doctors in the case of the main one in Dune).

I think they would have some kind of enhancement to prolong there lives along with the memory enhancing drugs. Obviously it would be illegal to tamper/harm one of these guys.  
 Who would use them?
 Only the wealthy like in the Dune books?
 Would they try to dampen any emotions the individual would have so as to only get raw data, instead of a biased opinion on something?
 In that case would they even have lives before they become these libraries?
 
 Would there be a faction against the use of people as data banks?
 
 Just some thoughts that sprung into my head.
 
 

First, holy cow. That's a lot of replies since I checked at breakfast.

Where to start eh? well, as for the walking libraries, let me see if I can explain it. Even thought it would be an advanced setting, and most urban dwellers would be literate, they would not have access to information at their finger tips like we do. they would have to go to the library - THE PEOPLE LIBRARY! And I know paper would make more sense, but it's not nearly as interesting or creative, which is what this whole thing is really about. Or maybe a global librarians guild has a complete monopoly over historic records and they found that the human brain is much more efficient than tomes and tomes because A) I want there to be LOTS of history in this setting, and B) I'm kinda flirting with the "we only use 5% of our brains juju (I'm sure there is more to it than that, but if we can suspend our disbelief for dragons and magic missiles, I don't think this is a stretch.)

And even though the setting would be humanocentric, that does not mean they think like we do. Even in our world, different taboos, traditions, cultures, etc. create vastly different points of view of right, wrong, what's efficient, what's important - things like that.  So once again, suspension of disbelief is key right now, as I'm more interested into how these bigger ideas and themes will fit into the setting than I am of the minute details.

Hmm, what else. Oh yeah, the walking talking google is a sweet idea. Maybe the Library rents out mnemonics that are loaded with specific information - economics for merchants, history and psychology for politicians, warfare for generals. But there would still be vast "banks" of the mnemonics back at the library that would hold the greater collection of human knowledge while they lived for centuries in a semi-catatonic embalmed state.

Maybe I should write something in-game about this Mnemonics Guild?

And I'm also looking for ideas of how I could transmute some types of modern technology into a human-nology.

I'll do more thinking.

Just one quick question. This guild, that seems to control all the history in the world and all the information in the world. Why don't they have absolute control of the world?

Just throwing that out there. And here's a quote: "If knowledge is power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, would absolute knowledge corrupt absolutely?" I think it's a question you should apply to this guild.

Quote from: LeetzFantastic! Well, let me waste my workday thinking further about things.

But technological development is only one of the angles that I want to approach. Human development and evolution is something extremely interesting to ponder on.

For example, without the eventual rise of computers, maybe some humans would form a guild of human-calculators, or maybe some would train their memories so well as to be living libraries - picture a shadowy cloister of muttering, semi-catatonic people hooked up to IVs of some kind of serum where all they do is remember and recite information, creepy but cool. In my opinion, at least, I think this all is plausible, if not possible. Without the advancement of technology to focus our energies into, who knows what we could do with ourselves.

And this would not only be in the mental sense, but physical as well. I know the super-trained assassin is cliche, but different types of meta-martial arts would be extremely interesting - warriors who manipulate their nervous system to become immune to pain, or others who can speed up their mental synapses for short bursts (basically a haste spell).

I'm almost at the point of totally excluding magic, there is just so much cool stuff that doesn't have to depend on it.

   I like the human library idea. Perhaps human libraries for specific jobs? Like a cook who has one of these human libraries that knows thousands of recipes and tons of ingrediants, if you get what i'm saying.

  For the no magic thing, I think its a good idea given the creative approach your going for. But since your thinking of extreme expansion of the human mind, some things that resemble the supernatural could be used, sort of like psionics, except the effects would be much, much more subtle and all the fluff totally different. Of course, these abilities wouldn't resemble any current magic (no fireballs, teleport spells, magic missiles, etc., etc.). Does this fit with what your trying to go for?

Quote from: LlumJust throwing that out there. And here's a quote: "If knowledge is power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, would absolute knowledge corrupt absolutely?" I think it's a question you should apply to this guild.

 Maybe that's the reason they are not all powerful, because rival factions are holding them back, fearing that they will gain control of all knoweledge and rule the world.

The "human google" idea could be brought much further by introducing telepathy (granted, that's crossing into the realm of magic). You could have telepaths acting as a portable "user interface" to the centralized library. Heck, you could basically replicate the functions of a modern telephone network via telepaths! If you ruled that there is a a maximum physical distance for telepathy to work over, there would have to be relay stations (with telepaths inside them) to link connections over longer distances - like the antennae masts of a mobile phone network.

Hmmm. Well, the "human google for hire" is totally getting worked in, but telepathy feels like it may be jumping the shark a bit.

here where some other ideas I had-
1. A city of unsurpassed warriors (ala sparta) that hire themselves out to other cities, kingdoms.
2. Some kind of pervasive, monotheistic religion.
3. Global merchant houses.
4. ugh writers block.

There is also a world map in the works. I feel like that could help a lot.

Ok, here is a refinement of the warrior-city. A city that mixes mercenaries for hire with genetic manipulation and breeding programs. This city would have the best military forces in the world, but would excel as conquerors, not rulers, hence them eventually hiring themselves out as the cities primary export.

[ic]The five Seljar mercenaries stood silently in the shadows of the prince's glass-columned arcade, their tanned, shaved scalps reflecting the candles fiery glow. They were dressed as most Seljar traditionally do, even when hired as "guests" in other cities: a short, thigh-length leather skirt, an airy white tunic - the left shield-arm sleeveless, the right long with red strips of silk woven in. Their great falajhar shields of molded bone and sap rose to their chins. No weapon rested in their free hand, but if the rumors were true, their tunics held innumerable glass-bladed knives, cudgels, and short-spears in addition to the barbed javelins hidden behind their falajhars.

They spoke only when spoken to, in a soft, effeminate voice that would be expected of eunuchs. It was hard for me to imagine how these Seljar were so feared, dressed as they were like boy-lovers, speaking in a child's tone.

That was until the doors crashed open. Dozens of men garbed in black and red stormed the arcade, their knives whistling in air besides blow-gun darts. The prince's lackeys and sycophants scampered in fear, their superfluous robes of silk and precious stones weighing them down against the first volley.

Yet as soon as the assassins feet touched the tiled floor, the Seljar acted. The five moved as one, a flurry of swirling shields, fluttering red ribbons, and the glint of glass blades. They cut through the intruders, like a flame cuts the night. They moved so smooth, so effortlessly, deflecting a hostile lunge, hamstringing a foe, throwing their javelins with pin-point accuracy - all within a breath.

And just like that it was over. Dozens of men lay dead or dying at the doors, a shiny pile of gore. And the five Seljar stood quietly, not even out of breath. They returned to their posts and stood, without a single drop of blood on their sun-white tunics.

-Account of the Seljar, Asal Yl Tlas[/ic]

You know, I'm just going to have to jump on this opportunity, but Leetz if you're interested in the Review Partnering would you consider swapping with me?

Nice. Your Seljar kind of remind me of the Unsullied from ASoIaF. I guess that's where you got some inspiration for them :)

Needs more info on the actual city though. How large is it, what kind of government is in place, is it wealthy or poor, etc.

Quote from: Leetz[ic]Their great falajhar shields of molded bone and sap rose to their chins. No weapon rested in their free hand, but if the rumors were true, their tunics held innumerable glass-bladed knives, cudgels, and short-spears in addition to the barbed javelins hidden behind their falajhars.[/ic]

Nice use of materials.  Do they use simple glass or do they decorate it with colors?

Silvercat, I'd like to, but I really can't guarantee that I'd be timely or consistent with any feedback. I will, on the other hand comment as much as I possibly can.

GM, definitely inspired by the Unsullied.

Ok, and since this one of this settings primarily themes/ideas is the lack of heavy metals, here is a list of materials that developed instead of things like steel, iron, etc.

Cured Leather/Hide Hands down the most common and inexpensive form of armor, leather or hide that has been cured and treated - sometimes even studded with pieces of bone or stone - is the default armor for most of the world. The city of ________ is famed for its particularly strong and light suits of leather armor, and are much sought after.

Chitsalah A mix of powdered bone, shells, and insect carapaces later mixed with a solution of tree sap, salt, and various alchemical compounds and pressed into various shapes - like shields, breastplates, grieves - chitsalah, while it may be called by different names and composed of slightly different ingredients, is a fairly common and widespread type of material. In its natural form, chitsalah is most commonly bone-yellow, but is frequently dyed and painted. The Seljar have developed a particularly strong chitsalah, and use it to make their famed falajhar shields.

Wood Wood that has been treated, shaped, cured, and lacquered is sometimes used as armor in the more verdant places of the world, where wood is not such a rarity. While not the most protective of armors, it is beautiful, it floats, and is extremely lightweight. Wood is also excessively used in weaponry - spears, blow-guns, bows, handles and hilt, and even on its own as sharpened javelins or stakes.

Tlau-weave Tlaulau is a type of mineral that grows in paper thin sheets, and when exposed to high heat, fuse together to form a strong a flexible material. Tlaulau on its own, despite its strength, can be brittle and shatter if struck in the right way, because of this, cut strip are woven into cloth tunics, creating a strong and flexible armor - called tlau-weave armor. ,  

Stone Various semi-precious gemstones are sometimes woven into tunics, creating beautiful scale armor that while usually very heavy, excels and turning and often shattering brittle glass or chipped-stone blades. Those of the Plumed Isles are famed for their shimmering armor of purple silk and jade, just as the mountain men of the Sarivya are renowned for their armor of obsidian, bone, and furs. Stone is also frequently used for axeheads, clubs, and maces, as well as being chipped and used for edged-weapons like spears, small knives, and projectile heads.

Glass Glass, both natural and man-made, is used for its sharp edges in many a blade, spear tip, and arrowhead. While razor-sharp, glass is obviously brittle, and weapons of this make frequently break. Behind wood and stone weapons, glass is the most commonly used material for edged-weapons.

Animal Parts Innumerable fangs, teeth, spines, and stingers are used as weapons. Quills are used as blow-gun darts, teeth as daggers, fangs are frequently soaked in poison and used as silent killers. The more barbaric use shoulder blades, femurs, and skulls as crude weapons. Animal hide in its raw form is used as well. Wild men wear crude skins, while their civilized brothers wear furs and pelts as shows of wealth, ceremony, and tradition.


Ok, that's all I have for now, but I'm open to ideas.

Quote from: LeetzSilvercat, I'd like to, but I really can't guarantee that I'd be timely or consistent with any feedback. I will, on the other hand comment as much as I possibly can.

That's good enough, really.

You've really outdone yourself with creating these materials.

thanks dude, and is there a thread for your setting yet, or is it still brainstorming?

I', trying to think of more things like chitsalah or tlau-weave, things that are specific to this setting. maybe some kind of armor that is made with reeds or wicker? Ancient Persian soldiers used wicker shields if I remember correctly. Maybe some kinda of Kevlar-esque cloth and sap material?

Quote from: LeetzWood Wood that has been treated, shaped, cured, and lacquered is sometimes used as armor in the more verdant places of the world, where wood is not such a rarity. While not the most protective of armors, it is beautiful, it floats, and is extremely lightweight. Wood is also excessively used in weaponry - spears, blow-guns, bows, handles and hilt, and even on its own as sharpened javelins or stakes.

Wooden armor lightweight? :huh: That's odd. Does the setting have fictional tree species that yield extremely light and durable wood? (Mind that such trees would be more difficult to cut down.) Strange too, that noone would use it for shields, when in real world most shields were wooden.

Perhaps you could come up with some processed, paper-like material to use for armors?

Quote from: Leetzis there a thread for your setting yet, or is it still brainstorming?

No, still working on it on the same thread.  It's getting close to setting territory, I just really don't want to write up an actual setting thread without a good idea of what I'm doing.

Quote from: LeetzI', trying to think of more things like chitsalah or tlau-weave, things that are specific to this setting. maybe some kind of armor that is made with reeds or wicker? Ancient Persian soldiers used wicker shields if I remember correctly. Maybe some kinda of Kevlar-esque cloth and sap material?

Materials produced by giant insects?  Giant beetle shells as shields, giant spider silk woven into cloth stronger than steel, giant termites trained to use their mixture of spit and dirt to form stone-hard armor.

Quote from: GhostmanWooden armor lightweight? :huh: That's odd. Does the setting have fictional tree species that yield extremely light and durable wood? (Mind that such trees would be more difficult to cut down.) Strange too, that noone would use it for shields, when in real world most shields were wooden.

I'd say wood would be light, once it's been dried and cured. It would at least be lighter than metal armor - pine, balsa, and cedar are all really lightweight, and that's just off the top of my  head. You may not want a full suit of the armor, but a breast plate and a pair of grieves or some pauldrons would be fine. and of course shields too, I just use armor as a catch-all term.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawGiant beetle shells as shields, giant spider silk woven into cloth stronger than steel, giant termites trained to use their mixture of spit and dirt to form stone-hard armor.

Well, as far as the giant bugs go, I feel like using generic giant versions wouldn't mesh well with the setting - some types of new animals on the other hand, may. The chitsalah I pondered up uses animal shells and carapaces, albeit in a different way, but I don't see why the less civilized cultures wouldn't use the cruder versions of raw, unprocessed shells in the whole.

Sea-barbarians who use crustacean carapaces or fish scales?

I'm sure I'm sending somewhat mixed signals with the vibe of the setting, but for most part, there are large swaths of extremely civilized lands who I feel would develop something better, more refined, and more advanced than using shell or carapace as is. Barbarians and tribes, on the other hand...

I rather doubt that any wooden breast plate thick enough to offer significant protection would be very light. Compared to a metal plate to cover the same area, anyway.

Kevlar-esque stuff doesn't work well against melee weapons BTW, though it does against missile weapons such as arrows and javelins. Such armor might fit the flavour you're after for the more advanced civilizations, though it would have to be used by skirmisher-type warriors who specialize on ranged weapons and keep a distance to their foes.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: LeetzSilvercat, I'd like to, but I really can't guarantee that I'd be timely or consistent with any feedback. I will, on the other hand comment as much as I possibly can.

That's good enough, really.

You've really outdone yourself with creating these materials.

I suppose that's all we can really ask from anyone.

And Leetz you've got no shortage of fans.

Should I list you two as the first official partners?

Quote from: GhostmanI rather doubt that any wooden breast plate thick enough to offer significant protection would be very light. Compared to a metal plate to cover the same area, anyway.

Kevlar-esque stuff doesn't work well against melee weapons BTW, though it does against missile weapons such as arrows and javelins. Such armor might fit the flavour you're after for the more advanced civilizations, though it would have to be used by skirmisher-type warriors who specialize on ranged weapons and keep a distance to their foes.

You hit the nail on the head with what I bolded from your quote. But keep in mind that even though these armors may seem weak because they are not made of metal, there are also no weapons that use metal either.(well, there may be, but they would be on par with major artifacts) I agree, wooden or leather armor wouldn't make much sense against a steel axe head, but against a glass-blade, a simple sharpened wooden spear, or a blow-gun dart, I think wood would stand up to quite a bit.

Plus, the climate of this world will be a lot warmer and more humid than ours, so every little bit you're not wearing counts.

If the world is really warm (anything like the tropics of our world or even hotter...) then probably most bodyarmours would tend to be constructed from small pieces (think chainmail or lamellar, but you can probably come up with more exotic forms to use) in order to allow it to "breathe". Or simply having lots of tiny holes poked through it. It'd suck to wear a solid one-piece armor in the heat, pretty much regardless of materials :-p

Glass-blades wouldn't be good for hitting wooden armour or shields, true. Just hope that you won't come up against some big burly barbarian dude with a heavy stone-headed axe :axe:

Yes. a barbarian axe would be bad.

As for the armor in this setting, I was thinking along the minimal lines, somewhat like ancient greece. maybe a breast plate, shield, maybe grieves, helmet if they could afford it or it made sense - That would be about it.

Full suits of chainmail, or scalemail, or full plate like is common in D&D would be straight out, because 1.) the lack of metal, 2.) the heat and humidity, and 3.) the cultural focus on light warfare and mobility.

This thread seems to have a least a little useful information on armor in hot climates:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=166510

That was some great stuff, and I seem to have the same problem as the poster, except that metal is not prevalent in this setting, nor are horses or any beast capable of carrying people. but the layered silk armor would fit in great, as would lamelar to a degree (maybe made with ceremics?) The point on shields is good thought, they can be made light, and don't overheat like armor would.

Maybe I should have lots of different types of shields in the campaign like D&D normally has for armor types?

It also seems that the majority of weapons in this setting will be light, quick, and sharp - not blunt nor capable of having a heavy cutting blade like iron axes or steel swords. Also, without any to use as a cavalry mount, armies would not have to worry about cavalry flanking or heavy charges head on, so heavily armored troops could be decimated by light, quick, mobile troops throwing javelins or spears, then running away, then throwing, then running...

Because of these huge differences, I'm thinking that armor is really not as an important military factor as it was in our history. Maybe palace guards or ceremonial troops would wear heavier armors, but it would be for aesthetics and tradition just as much as it would be for function.

All right all, so this is out there, but to give this setting some umph and more wonder, I was thinking about implementing the cliched "earlier ancient empire that achieved yet to be reached technological achievement" having created things like datapads, small interesting devices, advanced weaponry and armor, maybe some kind of robots/automatons, or crashed ships (read dungeons).

Now, obviously this would have to mesh with the setting - the obvious route being technology seen as magic, robots as demons, weapons as relics. Visually they would also have to meet as well, robots would be rusted and covered in vegetation or worshiped and reworked, items and weapons re-decorated, etc. This technology would be less flashy Star Wars and more refined and subtle, like Dune.

Just a thought, but I think it would be extremely interesting.

Ceramics are very brittle, wouldn't make good armor (they'd shatter after being hit once).

Well the main concern about the ancient civilization is... where did they get all the metal from? All modern/future tech is derived from metal.

I had thought of that, and have two answers.

1. Some kind of cataclysmic civil war totally changed the face of the planet and either buried land with iron under seas or further underground.

2. This one is a bit out there, but I like it. Humans came to this world from Earth or human space (explains the human factor, as well as animals that are terrestrial via genetic stores) by a great colony-ship that, SURPRISE!, crash landed.

This world turned out to be very hot, very dangerous, and lacking in any real resource in the modern sense. So the survivors eventually developed, over thousands of years, into the cultures that are present now, forgetting their origins, technology, etc. and stagnating technologically themselves at the point which requires heavy metals.

So all this technology and metal would have been brought with them, surviving the crash and thousands of years through a mix of advanced materials and design, use and care by humans, self-repairing, or being stored in stasis pods.

The next question is why no one came after them, which is something I really can't answer, but reasons could be that the universe outside of this planet erupted into a great civil war and the planet was forgotten, or they did find the world, but saw nothing of use except for "barbarians" and just kept on their way - hmmm, or maybe floating in orbit there is some kind of observation station, which would be its own small little self-contained world where the observers act as gods, their troops as some kind of angles or demons. That kinda sounds neat...

I had thought of that, and have two answers.

1. Some kind of cataclysmic civil war totally changed the face of the planet and either buried land with iron under seas or further underground.

2. This one is a bit out there, but I like it. Humans came to this world from Earth or human space (explains the human factor, as well as animals that are terrestrial via genetic stores) by a great colony-ship that, SURPRISE!, crash landed.

This world turned out to be very hot, very dangerous, and lacking in any real resource in the modern sense. So the survivors eventually developed, over thousands of years, into the cultures that are present now, forgetting their origins, technology, etc. and stagnating technologically themselves at the point which requires heavy metals.

So all this technology and metal would have been brought with them, surviving the crash and thousands of years through a mix of advanced materials and design, use and care by humans, self-repairing, or being stored in stasis pods.

The next question is why no one came after them, which is something I really can't answer, but reasons could be that the universe outside of this planet erupted into a great civil war and the planet was forgotten, or they did find the world, but saw nothing of use except for "barbarians" and just kept on their way - hmmm, or maybe floating in orbit there is some kind of observation station, which would be its own small little self-contained world where the observers act as gods, their troops as some kind of angles or demons. That kinda sounds neat...

Oh, and these would be "special ceramics". maybe someone found a way to make them strong, or maybe they are brittle, but useful against sharp, light weapons.

This is me making a quick comment, as I love to skim posts.

[note]I'm going to agree with Ghostman above in saying that any wooden armors are going to be heavy.  The woods you mentioned are, indeed, lighter than  other woods, but they don't touch the lightness that metals were able to achieve in late middle ages and especially thereafter.  In a low-tech science fiction of any kind wood is going to be heavier than metals.  Unless, of course, you have a reason for this being otherwise.[/note]

Quote from: Leetz2. This one is a bit out there, but I like it. Humans came to this world from Earth or human space (explains the human factor, as well as animals that are terrestrial via genetic stores) by a great colony-ship that, SURPRISE!, crash landed.

Why not try something other than crash landing?  I think the trope's been done to death... almost.  It's a popular one and makes for a great story when done correctly.  What if it didn't crash land, but was attacked after landing?  Now it's parts and technologies are fragmented all around the world.  Maybe there's something unique about the world's atmosphere that marooned the ship, and now a nation (large organization, various secret peoples) have inherited the mission of rebuilding the ship and escaping the planet.  Maybe it was being followed by another race (either one that landed on the planet or one that could be a potential threat in the future), and the ship was shot down here.  Yes, it would still be a crash landing, but you could twist it by having both races marooned.  

Just some random brain-bubbling.  Good luck to you, and keep it up!  This thread's interesting.

Hmmm, a naval skirmish over the planet could explain a lot - weapons technology for one and the scattering of stuff. Maybe malfunctioning "hyperdrive" shot them to the wrong corner of space, millions of light years from the nearest colonized world - that reasons seems the most plausible to me.

"Maybe there's something unique about the world's atmosphere that marooned the ship, and now a nation (large organization, various secret peoples) have inherited the mission of rebuilding the ship and escaping the planet."

That would make sense immediately after the crash, but I was thinking the setting would take place somewhere between 10,000 and 15,000 years after the initial crash and for the inhabitants of this world to have TOTALLY forgotten about the crash.  

"That would make sense immediately after the crash, but I was thinking the setting would take place somewhere between 10,000 and 15,000 years after the initial crash and for the inhabitants of this world to have TOTALLY forgotten about the crash."

I can agree with that.  I still think it'd be an interesting quirk for a couple people to spend their life obsessing about this mystical heaven known as Earth, though most people claim that it's an old wive's tale or simply myth.  But these people, they know it exists.  I mean, it has to, right?

Hmmm, a naval skirmish over the planet could explain a lot - weapons technology for one and the scattering of stuff.

Maybe malfunctioning "hyperdrive" shot them to the wrong corner of space, millions of light years from the nearest colonized world - that reason seems the most plausible to me of why no one came to pick them up.

"Maybe there's something unique about the world's atmosphere that marooned the ship, and now a nation (large organization, various secret peoples) have inherited the mission of rebuilding the ship and escaping the planet."

That would make sense immediately after the crash, but I was thinking the setting would take place somewhere between 10,000 and 15,000 years after the initial crash and for the inhabitants of this world to have totally forgotten about the crash - they probably would have moved on to things like survival and rebuilding nearly immediately after the crash, and within probably a thousand years, all the technology would have faded into the realm of "magic", superstition, and legend - especially if they crashed in the more inhospitable parts of this planet and had to leave everything they couldn't carry to better lands.

And as for another race, I really want this setting to be focused on the nuances of human cultures, religions, societies, and sciences, not so much on explaining new races.

"I can agree with that. I still think it'd be an interesting quirk for a couple people to spend their life obsessing about this mystical heaven known as Earth, though most people claim that it's an old wive's tale or simply myth. But these people, they know it exists. I mean, it has to, right?"

Oh yeah dude, that would make a great cult or society, envisioning leaving this planet in a "vessel of jade and iron and fire, sailing across the stars to Heaven."

Thats exactly the kind of feel I want with these rare and mystical pieces of technology.

Here are a few instances of the left over technology that would seem like magic, but really wouldn't be.

1. Some kind of nanorobotic liquid - like quicksilver - that could be commanded mentally into shapes like spikes or a shield or something. Maybe would be the domain of "warlocks" or "sorcerers"

2. Datacube like devices that would store information on things like medicine, physics, anatomy, mathematics - basically areas of knowledge that don't particularly need a heavy back history and can exist on knowledge as its own (as opposed to things like history or religion that would have to refer to old Earth, the crashed ship, yada yada)

3. Laser or energy weapons shaped like a staff (something like the weapons out of the Stargate movie). Carried by high priests or kings?

4. Robots/AI that either basically take the role of some monsters or demons.

Thats all I have right now, but I'm sure I'll come up with more later. But still up for suggestions.

You could avoid the crash landing and add a twist to the story by saying that the spaceship (or fleet) was escaping from a destroyed Earth. They could be the last survivors of mankind, looking for a new home... but finding their technology unsustainable on this resource-deprived planet. Or perhaps a rebellious AI decided that it no longer wanted to keep all these useless passangers aboard, and basically marooned them.

well, in all honestly, it really doesn't matter how we got there, as it plays no part in the setting besides explaining ancient technology, humans, and terrestrial animal. Because even though that would be how we really got there, no one on the planet will know that, replacing the facts with creation myths, legends, etc.

Okay, here's an idea. Since you are talking about wood and trees, that would mean there has to be trees on this planet, right? And since it is an alien planet, they can't be there naturally. So perhaps the ship crashes, but it had an onboard garden type thing with all types of earth plants and trees. When the ship crashes, the earth plant's seeds spread and flourish on this new planet, growing into forests all over the planet. How does that sound?

Would make more sense that the planet was originally barren but was slowly terraformed and populated with earth species (a process that would likely take hundreds of years at least). An immensely large spaceship or a fleet of ships would be needed for this to be possible, with capabilities to conserve sufficient populations of all the species. They could all be kept in a stasis or something, while the ships are controlled by AIs only. As centuries pass, the planet would be gradually "seeded" with lifeforms, starting with basic species such as plants and bacteria, etc. When conditions improved to the point where they could support more complex lifeforms, these would be released from stasis and moved to the surface. The humans onboard would be among the last to awaken and populate the planet.

Quote from: GhostmanWould make more sense that the planet was originally barren but was slowly terraformed and populated with earth species (a process that would likely take hundreds of years at least). An immensely large spaceship or a fleet of ships would be needed for this to be possible, with capabilities to conserve sufficient populations of all the species. They could all be kept in a stasis or something, while the ships are controlled by AIs only. As centuries pass, the planet would be gradually "seeded" with lifeforms, starting with basic species such as plants and bacteria, etc. When conditions improved to the point where they could support more complex lifeforms, these would be released from stasis and moved to the surface. The humans onboard would be among the last to awaken and populate the planet.

That sounds pretty solid, except for when the disaster comes into play that pulls humanity back thousands of years in development, technology, and culture.  

Maybe a dormant alien virus on this new world was released shortly after human-fall, and killed off most terrestrial animals (including humans) and vegetation, which would explain rather well why there are not horses and other beasts of burden or beasts that have a carrying ability. Smaller organisms like birds, insects, fish, and small land creatures would persevere this plague, allowing them to used in the world. But I also want to include "alien" organisms that were native to the planet, mostly for flavor and "monster" purposes.

It would also explain why humans became to far set-back after settling a world with advanced technology. A huge, incurable virus would shatter the foundations of a society, creating panic and strife, and if this instability lasted long enough through multiple generations (added to the conflict involved with settling a new world) and if enough of the population died off so that it would be unable to sustain the infrastructure it had just created, this downward spiral would eventually lead to the forgetting and mythologizing of the original purpose and origin of humankind.  

BUT like I mentioned before, I'm really not too concerned with the origin story, as it will have next to no effect on the gameplay and non-gameplay development of this world, as its current inhabitants are totally unawares. It really only serves the purpose to explain humans, some terrestrial animals, and ancient technology. Besides that, it will do next to nothing except maybe vaguely influence religious creation myths or legends of its own.

Quote from: LeetzBUT like I mentioned before, I'm really not too concerned with the origin story, as it will have next to no effect on the gameplay and non-gameplay development of this world, as its current inhabitants are totally unawares. It really only serves the purpose to explain humans, some terrestrial animals, and ancient technology. Besides that, it will do next to nothing except maybe vaguely influence religious creation myths or legends of its own.

Then why explain it?  Let yourself off the work of making that hook, eliminate the need to stick to the one story you've created when you get a new idea, and get to see the setting from the same level as everyone else.

Hah, well in that case, origin story is this -

Somehow, humans reached an alien world, bringing advanced technology and terrestrial organisms. Something bad happened about 10,000 years in the past, and now humans are unawares of their glorious past while they survive and thrive on this new world, living in superstition, mysticism, and tradition.

So whats next?

well heck, I thought people lost interest in this thread, but apparently not. I would still really like to keep working on developing this setting, but as I'm sure you all know it's easier with consistent feedback.

So, uh, where is the best place to start then?

Maybe you could explain the different regions of this planet. Not specifically the kingdoms, but the regions, continents, something like that.

Well to explain myself I was waiting for something that was more immediate to the world and not part of the way-backstory.

[ic=The Writings of a Traveler] We left the city of Mau-Sal on the eve of the full red moon. The night was hot and rainy as is common at that time of the year, and the dock-slaves were slow in loading the dhow - the name of which was the Amber Fox.

We set sail across the warm shallows of the Mouth of Asath - perhaps three days of travel - towards the city of Patha to trade our cargo of salt and Ixandan wines just as the sun broke the eastern horizon. The crew was a mix, mostly Mau-Salan or Pathese, and they kept to themselves.

There were several other lone passengers like myself though. There was a man from Dishi, mostly likely a mercenary, who spent most of his time polishing his chitsalah breastplate; I believe his name was Ekoro Ish, but I speak poor Dishine. There was also a Ghalaghan steel-trader, who kept a small wooden case of what I guessed to be metal knives under the guard of seven hired bodyguards - he was a pleasant enough man, at least as far as those from Ghalaghah are concerned.

The last man was one of the Im Anami, the quick-silver sorcerers of the city of Chiyun, far to the east. He spent the time of the passage - when not in his cabin - conversing with the small, liquid orb of quick-silver that seemed to move about his arms and shoulders with a mind of it's own. I tried to speak to him once, but his accent was so thick, I could not even understand his Tradecant.

We spotted the white spires of Patha just as the eastern morning sun broke over the minarets and spires of the city. The sight of its harbor amazed even myself. A fluttering sea of canvas sails in reds, blues, yellows, and whites, the dhows, galleys, and baghlahs holding in their bellies the pungent perfumes of Nhishez, sea-rice and salted fish from the Verdant East, slaves and weapons of rippled-steel from the mountains of Ghalaghah, jade and feathers from across the Great Ocean, and the softest silks and cotton cloth from sweltering Il-Muhin.

Countless slaves worked the docks, hauling cargo to and fro ships, weaving there way between the canvas stalls of countless merchants. Hawkers cries for pottery and perfumes, glass and parchment filled the sea-scented air. Pathase city-guards, dressed in livery of purple chitsalah breastplates and white tunics, gaily painted hide shields, and wooden spears ornamented with plumes, kept the harbor at the brink of anarchy.

The Amber Fox quickly traded its cargo for a much lighter - but possibly more valuable - load of a small iron ingot, roughly the size of my fist. I would have desired to say longer in Patha, but my destination lay months away, and the Amber Fox was a sure passage to the lands of the Paper Kings, where I hope to find a caravan to take me farther east, as close to Jhalu, as close to home, as possible.

-Excerpts from the journal of Phara Thol of Jhalu.[/ic]

glass-bladed knifes? How is that a good idea?

Glass shatters, glass would be difficult to hold in place and while it can be very sharp... how would they keep it strong enough to actually not get stuck in someone's body? I can possibly see glass for cutting people, but never for gutting anyone. It would have to be a secondary weapon at best- a specialty weapon for assassins. I do not think that warriors would dare use something so failure-prone and potentially expensive to make in battle. Against a club for example, the glass sword would be gone in seconds.

I do however like the concept of an advanced society that has to make do with less metals.

well, in a standard medieval Europe style setting, yes, glass would be awful. but take in to account the style of this setting - no metal armor (actually little armor in general due to the hot climate)

historically, glass (obsidian really) was used to great effect by Meso-American civilizations. The Aztecs had a particular type of weapon - I can't remember the name right now - which was basically a club that was fitted with shards of obsidian. There are accounts from the Spanish of these weapons being able to decapitate a horse. Actually, I think that obsidian is STILL used as surgical scalpel tips because it is literally sharp to the molecular level.

But you're kinda right, full glass swords would be a poor idea, but short knives, spear-tips, glass-edged weapons, or the above mentioned club would make excellent weapons against lightly or unarmored opponents. It would be used as a slicing weapon, and, at least in my opinion, would be absolutely brutal against bare skin. It would take some amount of skill to use it with the finesse required, and would be next to useless for parrying incoming attacks, but in a setting where combat is focused more on finesse than pounding against metal armor, I think glass/obsidian would make very good weapons.

Obsidian sounds like a good idea. a club wound with barbed wire or glass shards might also work to some degree- but I think that leather armor would tend to repel the glass?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_use_in_Mesoamerica

check that link out for a rough of idea of obsidian use and also the flavor of this setting to an extent.

and leather could repel glass, but I doubt that would stop people from using glass weapons. Metal armored repelled metal weapons, but still was used anyways.

oh, and the Aztecan weapon was called a macuahuitl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl)

With all this talk of glass let's not forget that flint and bone are perfectly serviceable weapon materials.

@Leetz: How hard are weapons and armor for common people to get?  At least some martial arts were developed by people who didn't have much access, you might consider that.

Common weapons and armor - things like basic spears, bows, wooden or hide shields, light armors like quilted or leather - would be fairly common. The setting would feature massive, well developed city-states, but the majority of the world would still be based in agriculture and farming (the specific systems would vary from feudalism, yeoman farming, etc. across the world) Many of these farmers would probably serve as conscripts within the local military and would have their own basic weaponry for things like protecting the farm, hunting, and military service.

The more advanced and higher quality weapons and armors - things like obsidian, chitsalah, tlau-weave, and the rare metal weapon - would most likely belong only to the warrior-elites, the wealthy, and the nobility and be treated as family heirlooms.

I was thinking about writing an in-game excerpt about the military of a specific city-state to further help describe the setting, which is getting to the point of needing a name.

That's kind of cool - that you could have a sword that is legendary simply because it's made from metal...

How much thought have you given to the role of missile weapons? Lack of heavy armor tends to favour ranged combat, especially in the context of well-developed military systems (where you have the logistics and command structure to have large number of soldiers organized into units). The reason is, that while agile dodging and parrying can protect you in melee, it's absolutely useless against massed ranks of missile weapons. When there's 5000 archers raining arrows on the general area you're in, it's pretty much impossible to avoid being hit except by covering yourself with a big shield. So if you don't have armor that can stop the arrows reliably, you will need a shield that does.

This is especially important if the setting doesn't have anything akin to cavalry (ie. fast moving) that could close up on ranged attackers quickly.

ok, here's a slightly more concise idea of what the setting would entail.

The heart of the setting would focus around 6 to 12 massive city-states that would share a basic culture, religion, and language. Warfare - both conventional and covert - would be common amongst the cities, with tangled webs of alliances, assassins, and plots present. But even though skirmishes would be common, no city can muster the strength to attempt to conquer another city while defending itself from the others - this will be expanded on later, think a mix of Flower Wars and an assassins war. So even though the cities are at times openly hostile, trade and culture still flourishes.

beyond these cities, other states would exist and interact on a familiar level, and beyond those would be other, more foreign places. The climate of the core cities would be tropical, with a focus on coasts, islands, jungles, and warm, shallow seas.

culturally, these cities would be an amalgam of Mesoamerican, Southeast Asian, Japanese, and Polynesian influences, but obviously with it's own definite uniqueness.

beyond that, everything is still in the air.

Quote from: GhostmanThat's kind of cool - that you could have a sword that is legendary simply because it's made from metal...

How much thought have you given to the role of missile weapons? Lack of heavy armor tends to favour ranged combat, especially in the context of well-developed military systems (where you have the logistics and command structure to have large number of soldiers organized into units). The reason is, that while agile dodging and parrying can protect you in melee, it's absolutely useless against massed ranks of missile weapons. When there's 5000 archers raining arrows on the general area you're in, it's pretty much impossible to avoid being hit except by covering yourself with a big shield. So if you don't have armor that can stop the arrows reliably, you will need a shield that does.

This is especially important if the setting doesn't have anything akin to cavalry (ie. fast moving) that could close up on ranged attackers quickly.

I've thought about that myself, and have, what I think at least, a few solid reasons to why that doesn't occur in this setting.

-as I posted right after you did, the geography of the setting will be rugged and lush, which would lead to the abundant foliage somewhat diminishing the effectiveness of some ranged weapons, especially arrows en mass. However, other forms of ranged weapons, like javelins, atlatls, blow-guns, or shorter ranged bows, would be very prevelent.

-I was thinking that warfare in this setting would be very ritualized and rule-based, so having an entire army of archers would be seen as cowardly, weak, and taboo. Warfare would be centered on melee and short- to mid-ranged combat.

-considering how military tactics would differ without heavily armored infantry or cavalry charges, I think a battle would go from ranged skirmishes to a very fluid melee that would focus on one-on-one combat as opposed to shield-wall pushes and phalanx style attacks.

does that make a bit more sense?

Yes. Lack of armor and cavalry wouldn't necessarily lead to loose melee, but prolific dense vegetation certainly would. But moreover:

Quote from: Leetza focus on coasts, islands, jungles, and warm, shallow seas.

This is something that emphasises the importance of NAVAL combat. That aspect should certainly be well developed, and the cities should be able to match each other's strength on the seas at least as well as they do on land. Allowing any one of them to rule the waves would shatter the balance of power you've described.

I was thinking about that myself as well, and it's becoming apparent that everything nautical is going to be very important in the setting.

with the focus on shallow, calm seas as opposed to open ocean, I think the majority of vessels would be man powered (rowed), due to the probably lack of reliable winds. plus, the development of ship building and sailing technologies would be severely stagnated by the lack of metals - compasses would be rare beyond words, no complex rigging, no nails, etc.

also, as a way to explain how the balance of power within the city-states is maintained, I was thinking that around the time of the cities foundings, some great pact was signed that set a myriad of rules for warfare - both land and sea, trading, rules for assassins, etc. with the enforcement of these rules coming from the threat of being ganged up on if a city breaks them.

I thought that maybe writing down a list of possible and achieved advances in this setting versus impossible or unachievable advanced may help flesh it out more. keep in mind the settings foci are on little metal, advanced societies, and a non-Western viewpoint.

YES- advanced agriculture sans metal tools, massive metropolises, advanced sciences (maths, physics, etc.), alchemy/chemistry, road systems, humanities, sewer/water systems, colleges/universities, gunpowder, genetics, and evolution theories to name a few.

NO- anything that has to do with abundant metallurgy like steel, metal weaponry, firearms, machines in general, locomotion/automobiles, and a million little things that depend on metal but are taken for granted like cooking pans, locks, clocks, bells, or buckles.

Quote from: LeetzYES- advanced agriculture sans metal tools

What kind of alternatives are in use? Metal tools (particularly the plough) have had tremendeous influence on our agriculture, increasing it's productivity and thus requiring less people to work the fields, allowing more of them to move into urban centers and take up different professions.

The species of domestic animals available to the people is another very important factor that should be carefully considered. Jared Diamond (the author of Guns, Germs, and Steel) concluded that people in Europe and Asia had agricultural advantage over the rest of the world because they had access to the most useful domestic animals.

Creating your own fictional species could open a lot of interesting possibilities regarding agriculture.

Quote from: LeetzYES- [...] gunpowder

Might want to call it "blackpowder" or come up with a brand new name, since it won't be used for guns.

Quote from: LeetzNO- [...] locks

You don't need metal to make locks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_%28device%29#History_of_locks). Not that that means you'll have to have them in your setting, just that you could if you wanted to.

Quote from: GhostmanWhat kind of alternatives are in use? Metal tools (particularly the plough) have had tremendeous influence on our agriculture, increasing it's productivity and thus requiring less people to work the fields, allowing more of them to move into urban centers and take up different professions.

The species of domestic animals available to the people is another very important factor that should be carefully considered. Jared Diamond (the author of Guns, Germs, and Steel) concluded that people in Europe and Asia had agricultural advantage over the rest of the world because they had access to the most useful domestic animals.

Creating your own fictional species could open a lot of interesting possibilities regarding agriculture.

well, considering the climate and geography of this setting,  as well as the feel (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Pana_Banaue_Rice_Terraces.jpg), I think that rice - or some imaginary cereal that would be cultivated like rice - would be the best choice as the cornerstone food. because of rice being grown in paddys and not dry fields, I don't think it would be as severely hampered by a lack of metal tools like plows or other harvest tools. this would explain why on one hand the setting had a lower level of technologies we often think of as modern, but still be able to support massive urban populations (cities of a tens or hundreds of thousands with the super-cities being one, two, or even three million, this all being in addition to a massive rural population as well.)

In addition to large, developed agricultural systems and infrastructures, the high populations would also be maintained by well developed medicine, sanitary, and social systems. At its height, Tenochtitlan, the capital city of the Aztecs, was one of the most well developed and largest cities in the world, all without the aid of Eurocentric technologies, beasts of burden, or mechanization.

one of the points or themes of this setting is to answer the "what if..." questions of what would have happened to Mesoamerica (just as an example - as a myriad of cultures could fit right in) if Europeans never came? The other is the question of how humans would have advanced differently without the benefits of metal, which is the keystone to human technological advancement as we know it.

What keeps the rulers of each city in their vaunted place? It seems to me that a city of millions real control would be hard to ply.

Back to the subject of weapons. Glass knives were used in cooking up through the 1940s in America. Tempering glass isn't really all that challenging and I imagine a civilization that was forced to 'focus' on it would have made significant advancements toward mass production.  

I just had an idea. Since you are going with an alien planet theme, and since the planet has gone some sort of terraforming after the humans crashed/landed, perhaps there could be some sort of conflict between the natural plants and animals versus alien plants and animals. Does this make any sense?

  Picture a valley full of strange, giant lilly-pad like plants, and blue moss carpeting the forest floor, with a small stream running through. A few hundred yards away, another forest, tall pines and ferns, compete with the alien forest in a slow battle for nutrition and sunlight. This is just an idea. I could expand if you would like.

Just a question/thought thing:

 Why do these city-states battle each other?

 Then I thought, overcrowding, resources dwindling.
 
 Obviously this is a world that has few natural resources.

 I have just skimmed most of this thread, but it is very interesting.

 And I still think there should be no wheels.

 Keep it up.

Quote from: SurvivormanI just had an idea. Since you are going with an alien planet theme, and since the planet has gone some sort of terraforming after the humans crashed/landed, perhaps there could be some sort of conflict between the natural plants and animals versus alien plants and animals. Does this make any sense?

  Picture a valley full of strange, giant lilly-pad like plants, and blue moss carpeting the forest floor, with a small stream running through. A few hundred yards away, another forest, tall pines and ferns, compete with the alien forest in a slow battle for nutrition and sunlight. This is just an idea. I could expand if you would like.

that sounds neat, and I actually never thought of that. but instead of competition, what about coexistence, given that literally 10s of thousands of years have passed since humans made planetfall I would imagine that the environment would have found some kind of equilibrium.  Actually, your post reminded me of the old 4x game "Alpha Centauri", where humans had to deal with each other in addition to alien ecology.

Actually, what if humans never got the chance to terraform this world? Instead, they were forced to adapt to using these alien lifeforms as food and materials, but instead of trees and grasses being the dominant forms, what if the world was covered in fungal or algae life? take a more "scientific" route in developing these new forms of life, not just using purple trees. maybe there were not large organism, only smaller ones developed.

Or maybe terrestrial life was dominated by a single fungal organism (like Alpha Centauri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alpha_Centauri#Native_Life) but sea life developed somewhat faster, making humans dependent on the seas for food? The more I think about it, the cooler it would be to have none or little Earth-based life forms.

Quote from: SarisaJust a question/thought thing:

 Why do these city-states battle each other?

 Then I thought, overcrowding, resources dwindling.
 
 Obviously this is a world that has few natural resources.

 I have just skimmed most of this thread, but it is very interesting.

 And I still think there should be no wheels.

 Keep it up.

Well, first just for the conflict element to give excitement to the world. But resources would be a great reason, as would religion, ideology, politics, or even wars that were meant to obtain human sacrifices, depending how much different this world would be.

Hmm, for us late to the game, could you post a list of what you've arrived at as of yet and what still needs doing?

Quote from: Leetz

Quote from: SurvivormanI just had an idea. Since you are going with an alien planet theme, and since the planet has gone some sort of terraforming after the humans crashed/landed, perhaps there could be some sort of conflict between the natural plants and animals versus alien plants and animals. Does this make any sense?

  Picture a valley full of strange, giant lilly-pad like plants, and blue moss carpeting the forest floor, with a small stream running through. A few hundred yards away, another forest, tall pines and ferns, compete with the alien forest in a slow battle for nutrition and sunlight. This is just an idea. I could expand if you would like.

that sounds neat, and I actually never thought of that. but instead of competition, what about coexistence, given that literally 10s of thousands of years have passed since humans made planetfall I would imagine that the environment would have found some kind of equilibrium.  Actually, your post reminded me of the old 4x game "Alpha Centauri", where humans had to deal with each other in addition to alien ecology.

Actually, what if humans never got the chance to terraform this world? Instead, they were forced to adapt to using these alien lifeforms as food and materials, but instead of trees and grasses being the dominant forms, what if the world was covered in fungal or algae life? take a more "scientific" route in developing these new forms of life, not just using purple trees. maybe there were not large organism, only smaller ones developed.

Or maybe terrestrial life was dominated by a single fungal organism (like Alpha Centauri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alpha_Centauri#Native_Life) but sea life developed somewhat faster, making humans dependent on the seas for food? The more I think about it, the cooler it would be to have none or little Earth-based life forms.

 Co-existence sounds cool. The problem with there being no trees or plants is that you are using wood in alot of your weapons and armor. Where does that come from if there are no trees? Maybe some type of fungus that hardens when it dies? Still, I like the idea that humans made a huge impact on this worlds evolution. But I think the idea of earth life and alien life co-existing sounds awesome, and i'm supporting that fully. Like a herd of deer being stalked by some alien predator. Its not that far fetched. Afterall, many creatures introduced to enviroments that they didn't already live in flourish. Examples include pigeons, rats, and pigs, and even humans adapting to america (either way we got there, whether it be the land bridge theory or primitive rafts or one of the other theories). And coniferous forests and decidious forests co-exist well.

  So I can picture forests of pine trees and (insert alien plantlike life form) and deer and (insert alien predator) living together in one enviroment. I would be glad to help you brainstorm ideas for alien life forms (not really alien, as the deer and trees are actually alien to this planet, but both have been living together for so long their both considered natural).

Hmm, the lack of lumber would be a large hurdle - good point.

Jungles with giant, horse-size insect-like creatures, large lizards, or house size-mushrooms. Vast grasslands with huge, lumbering herbivores 10x the size of an elephant or some kind of chitinous lion-like creature.

The oceans and seas would really allow huge amounts of creative space, as even on Earth, half the creatures in the sea are pretty alien - like all those abyssal fish. Just picturing a harbor in this world filled with all these alien looking fish is pretty exciting.

Another huge plus with having alien lifeforms is having a reason for the existence of certain materials that may be hard to make without metal - like having some kind of quills replace surgical IVs. Also, having alien vegetation allows us to "make up" special drugs and chemicals (like the Spice in the Dune series) that have special effects on humans and would replace magic to a certain extent. Having special spices and herbs that would do things like speed up metabolism, neural synapses, mental calculating abilities, etc. would, like mentioned, take the place of effects usually reserved for "magic", all while keeping this theme of plausible science fiction.

@ CC

this is basically a brainstorm for a science fiction setting with "low" technology, primarily because of a lack of heavy metals and fossil fuels on this speculative world. influences would be works like Dune for the sci-fi feel, but heavily based on history - kinda like a "how would humans develop without heavy metals?" scenario.

How about a big mushroom that gets up and hunts you?  Tracks using vibration and the like.  It hunts you so that it can break your spine and set itself over you, making you rot and turn into food.

Or a cactus like plant that fires spines at you, so that after a while your DNA mutates and you become another spike shooting cactus like thing?

Huge crystalline spires that refine gasses into oxygen and more crystal?

Crab-like creatures that consume various things to give itself a shell made of literal iron or some other mineral?

M.

I have always thought that crustaceans are used far too little. Land lobsters perhaps? or mounts/livestock even ^^
Perhaps some kind of giant acidic slug.

Or some kind of airborne barnacle critter that will get all over your stuff and mess it up.

M.

I like the crustacean idea. Instead of fish, like you mentioned, crustaceans could be the main creatures in the ocean. Picture buoyant crab-like creatures floating around the ocean with wing like flaps. Its not to far fetched to have an ocean full of crustaceans, since you mentioned you would have shallow warm seas. Think like early earth, with giant sea scorpions crawling across the ocean floor.

  Land crustaceans would be cool to. Giant lobster like creatures being ridden for mounts sounds intruiging, and would make alot of sense in the world like your describing with marshes and jungles that would be nearly impossible for horses to traverse.

I know this threads been stagnant for a while, but hopefully this will get it going again. Anyhow, the other day I thought of a great origin story for the world and the reasons why it is the way it is (low tech, high culture, "magic" technology)

So here it is. The planet that this setting would take place on would be located in our solar system. This world would have been Earth II - a constructed planet built from matter drawn from Mars, Venus, and the Asteroid Belt as a new planet for mankind after Earth I becomes an irreparable and infertile wasteland. But before this Earth II could be finished, a catastrophe befell Earth I, shattering it into an cluster of dust and asteroids.

Whatever interplanetary structure collapsed after the fall of Earth I, as it would have contained computer cores, information network hubs - basically everything was dependent on it.

But Earth II still orbits the sun with a stable atmosphere, terraformed and arable land, and the remnants of human workers and settlers. But as mentioned, Earth II was never finished, framework would be exposed at certain point, so there would be a literal "Edge of the World." From space, Earth II would look something like the Death Star II from Return of the Jedi. Large electromagnetic generators deep in the core would duplicate Earth's electromagnetic fields and keep the atmosphere intact around a not-quite spherical world.

Now, I know this is isn't a bullet proof story, but does make a lot of other things more plausible. Namely of how humans are on this planet and why Earth-based life would also be on this planet. Engineered organisms allow room for imagination. This also would explain old technology and how it got there - left over excavation machines, armories, AI-automatons, crashed ships, etc. This would also explain why there would be few if any heavy metals and fossil fuels, as this world was designed for agriculture and sustaining populations, humans just figured they would import metals and fuels from other places.

On another note, the description and explanation of the solar system is done for me. As are star maps for the most part.

How does this all sound?

[EDIT] and yes SM, crustaceans would be sweet - I immediately thought of the silt striders from Morrowind.

Quote from: LeetzBut Earth II still orbits the sun with a stable atmosphere, terraformed and arable land, and the remnants of human workers and settlers. But as mentioned, Earth II was never finished, framework would be exposed at certain point, so there would be a literal "Edge of the World." From space, Earth II would look something like the Death Star II from Return of the Jedi. Large electromagnetic generators deep in the core would duplicate Earth's electromagnetic fields and keep the atmosphere intact around a not-quite spherical world.

My only main issue is that anything with a significant mass will be pulled into a sphere shape (so no gaping deathstar unfinished sections) by the force of gravity. Now to couter-act this, maybe the world is hollow? Otherwise your going to get a sphere shape wether you like it or not (if you have gravity)

@ Llum - Oh I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe the same EM fields that keep the atmosphere intact counteract some if not all of the gravity, so even if it was being pulled into a sphere, it would be at an very very slow pace. I'm no physicist either, but I would think that it would take a long time for something to be shaped into a circle wouldn't it?

I also think the next big step would be to put limits on what would be possible with "magic" (read - ancient technology) and what wouldn't be possible. I'd like to keep closer to vaguely plausible than to vaguely impossible.

Quote from: Leetz@ Llum - Oh I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe the same EM fields that keep the atmosphere intact counteract some if not all of the gravity, so even if it was being pulled into a sphere, it would be at an very very slow pace. I'm no physicist either, but I would think that it would take a long time for something to be shaped into a circle wouldn't it?

I don't see how EM fields could counteract gravity. And even if they did, would that mean there would be no gravity on the surface of the world? The most logical way is a hollow world (that I can think of at least) if your dead set on having some kind of half-finished sphere shape.

That being said, everything would accelerated to the center of the mass of gravity at a rate depending on the amount of mass, so it wouldn't be all that slow.

Also, how do EM fields keep the atmosphere intact? Normally gravity keeps an atmosphere, hence why Mars doesn't have one, it doesn't have enough mass.

This is a really cool idea. You could still keep the whole
'mystical earth heaven' cult, except of course earth would be gone so it would have no merit but would be an interesting religion. How would genetically engineered creatures work? Afterall, we cannot design anything that far out the boundries of what we have already seen, so they would somewhat resemble earth animals.

  Perhaps it was discovered on Mars that there used to be life billions and billions of years ago, and the genetically engineered creatures are designed to look like the fossils of ancient extinct mars alien creatures. Think alien Jurassic Park.

The planet could be less dense than earth, still be the same size, and generate less gravity.

Also,

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Bathynomus_giganteus.jpg)

M.

@ Llum, you're probably right, maybe a half-world would be more work than it would be worth. I do think, however, that an "unfinished" artificial world could present some interesting stuff. Like a range of mountains that where never shaped to look like "real" mountains, so it's a mountain range of massive concrete (or whatever) blocks stacked into the shape of a mountain range. Or places where the ground wasn't filled in, so there a massive gaps and chasms staring down into the abyss of the world's frame. Stuff like excavating machines and factories would still dot the landscape, but would be seen as ruins or "dungeons."
And as for the EM stuff, it's basically just fluff to describes things that could be plausible but that I have no real scientific knowledge of.

@SM Well actually Earth would still exist, but in lots of pieces that they could see in the sky at certain parts of the year (I realize that there is the issue of Earth I and II running into each other, but whatever, it's fiction right?)

And as far as the engineered creaturs, I was thinking that if we were to build a new world, we would also have to build an ecosystem or at least shape it enough so it would work. I was thinking more along the lines of "lite" engineering, like giant insects or crustaceans, reptilian birds, beefed up herd animals (like 15ft high deer or something.) But I don't want to use engineering as an excuse or even a reason to have lizards = dragons, mutant people = orcs, crap like that. I want life to be familiar, but alien at the same time, like Earth's life in prehistoric eras. And since it would be a warm, lush, verdant world, I don't see why life - over the course of thousands of years plus a little engineering - couldn't grow a bit bigger.

and finally @ Che - totally rad, totally gross, and exactly what I've been thinking of. Imagine something like that trained as a pack animal. Awesome.

(//../../e107_files/public/1250649906_959_FT69406_dmw1_.jpg) (//../../e107_files/public/1250649906_959_FT69406_dmw1.jpg)


here is a concept for the "crustacean steed" (the broken shards of the original Earth orbit as a moon.)

Switching to 3d view...

(http://www.imperial-library.info/bestiaries/morrowind_large_siltstrider-1.jpg)

:p

M.

yeah yeah, but the one I drew is still awesomer. and more lobstery.

Crab battle?

M.

Nice drawing. Like how the pincers are tied together. It does walk, right?
For prehistoric animals, giant sloths and terrorbirds could also be interesting.

@CC - thanks ya for the compliment, and yeah, I thought the tied pincers were a nice touch too.

as for the prehistoric stuff, let me try to explain my "Grand Vision" for the animals and what not of the world. I don't want to get too unrealistic with the animals for the most part. I feel like having lower, less evolved organisms - like arthropods, insects, and some sea life - would be easier to modify and would evolve slightly quicker than the more evolved and advanced organisms - like mammals. An example of this would be the evolution of the peppered moth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution. I figure, it wouldn't be a horrible stretch of the imagination to imagine other such organisms evolving even further with the addition of time and a little push from engineering. Does that make sense?

on that note, I suppose larger birds would fit into the feel of the setting.

This would fit the theme better:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meganeura

M.

yeah, the Meganueura would be perfect. I was just using the peppered moth as an example of quick evolution really.

Increased levels of oxygen within this world's atmosphere would be a great reason (and somewhat valid too) to explain the larger than what we see as average grow of organisms.  

ok. I just decided that the high tech part of the setting will coexist along side the low tech part of the setting. That being said, let me try to explain it now. I was thinking that along side the city-states, kingdoms, and empires that would exist in "low tech" part of the setting, several factions or organizations would exists above and beyond the rest of the world. The vast majority - 98% - of all humans would live in the lower tech part of the setting. however, that 2% would have access to extremely advanced, but not replicable, technology. These factions would have goals that would transcend the petty wars and schemes of the greater population.

As an example, I was thinking that one of these guilds could have control of a half dozen or so ancient "space-freighters." These ships would be advanced enough to reach orbit, but not enough to travel beyond the immediate world. So obviously this guild would have a monopoly on trade for those who could afford transporting their merchandise in such a way. I was thinking that their main goal would be to somehow find a way to once again explore the reaches of space with their ships, which over the centuries (or millennium) would have evolved into a quasi-religious search for a Garden of Eden-like place.

would this work?

Just to throw something out there, I remember reading an article that basically said that peppered moth evolution was a complete crock of bullshit. I don't remember much else, and no it wasn't a general anti-evolution thing, it was about that specific example.

Quote from: Leetzreach orbit... monopoly on trade...transporting their merchandise

Transporting stuff into orbit is stupidly expensive, and essentially a waste for anything comming back down.

Another thing is comming back down from orbit is quite difficult (to not explode). Look at the USAs space programme, probably one of the most advanced in the world. yet they haven't designed a new spaceship in fifty years, cause its too damn expensive.

Even when they explode (there's been quite a few explosions in the last little while). Spaceships are not a good way to transport stuff from one point on earth to another.

Re-entry is another difficult thing, most space ships land in the middle of the ocean/mountains and have recovery teams go out and get them.

I see an excuse for ancient Earth 1 creatures on Earth 2... If we can make a whole new planet, and genetic engineering has gone far enough... Recreate Dinosaurs, and Ice age creatures. All you would have to do is engineer them to be able to breath the modern atmosphere. They might also have to be shrunk down for safety and practicality.

here is what I drew for the post just above this.

[edit] by the time my mach-turtle internet loaded this up, two posts appeared. so this is in response to this

"As an example, I was thinking that one of these guilds could have control of a half dozen or so ancient "space-freighters." These ships would be advanced enough to reach orbit, but not enough to travel beyond the immediate world. So obviously this guild would have a monopoly on trade for those who could afford transporting their merchandise in such a way. I was thinking that their main goal would be to somehow find a way to once again explore the reaches of space with their ships, which over the centuries (or millennium) would have evolved into a quasi-religious search for a Garden of Eden-like place."

and @Llum, is was thinking more Star Wars than Challenger for the remaining spaceships. Take a peek at my sketch for an idea.




The great carrack broke through the dense clouds that loomed over the mountain-city of Ghalaghah. It was the first I ever saw one of the Guild's ships with my own eyes. It was so large it covered even the tallest towers in shadow. From it's depths a deep growl could be hear as it floated silently, ominously over the city. An ancient beast of iron and steel, the sides where covered in prayers and painted on was the 'Epic of Xal'Voya' in vivid blues, reds, and yellows. At the first sign of the carrack, they said the merchants of the city would scramble and send envoys to the Guild, hoping that they would take their wares far across the seas, completing a journey of months in a matter of hours.

ok, to further elaborate on this shipping guild, here is a fluffy back story for it-

The Navigators would be the descendants of simple space-freighter pilots who, during the building of Earth II millennium ago, would run materials from massive trans-planetary barges down to the various construction sites on the surface. At the onset of the destruction of the original Earth, these freighters, like nearly all advanced technology that was critically linked to the planet (Earth I), crashed beyond repair, fell into the seas, or drifted into the void. Some, however, managed to survive and stay aloft. These survivors, the original Navigators, banded together during the dark times and survived on the near self-sustaining vessels as they drifted on the edge of space. Over this period of time, the Navigators themselves - who were intrinsically linked to the neural networks of the ship - began to shape themselves as messengers of God, as their entombed state gave them an inhuman lifespan as well as complete control over the Navigator's respective ship.

By the time that the Navigators descended from the clouds, the single Navigator on each ship was prayed to as a saint, a messenger of God by the inhabitants of each ship, now called carracks. Also, by this time, the Navigator's themselves, between slow mental breakdown, chemical dependencies, and ego, believe they too are actually messengers of God. There are no more than six carracks remaining. On the surface, the Navigators would have a two-fold mission - gain follower's for their grand plan (mentioned in a moment) and transport selected goods across the world. Their main goal, unknown to all but the Navigators themselves and a few other souls, is to look for a way to call upon God (read: an interplanetary barge) to deliver them to paradise (read: some kind of orbital living station somewhere in the solar system that may or may not exist.) So the Navigator's often hire others or use loyal servants to search for other crashed carracks for some kind of artifact (read: remote control) to call on "God."

does that make sense?

The drawing is beautiful, but why do you need a spaceship to transport things around the planet? Won't a low orbit airplane do the job? Imagine a 747 with the speed and the height of the Concorde. Would that be more suitable?

well, I was thinking that airplanes need runways, which I feel wouldn't really fit with the high tech/low tech juxtaposition. Plus at the time of the construction of Earth II, I would imagine airplanes would be obsolete, as if we were capable of building an artificial world, I'm sure we could have gotten around aerodynamics. Plus a huge, mile long hulk that would mysteriously appear out of the clouds has a lot more panache than a 747-like thing - at least in my opinion.

What about an airplane with a ramjet/scramjet that can land almost vertically?

Well, a 747 is a huge hulk... though not a mile long.

I just can't really see the physics justification for a mile-long ship. The power needed to lift it into the air is one thing; the ability to avoid and destroy space junk and meteroites is another-- it just does not seem realistic.

Then again, this is science fiction.

Personally I think the setting can be better served by not having spaceships or ultra-high-tech at all. If not done perfectly, they can seem tacked on and campy.

But that's just my opinion. I'm sure you can whip up something very good. :)

Quote from: Light DragonThen again, this is science fiction.

yeah that's the key as of now. I know I'm taking LOTS of liberties with speculative technology, physics, and evolution, but hell, if we can suspend our disbelief for dragons and dwarves, I don't think this is too far of a stretch ;)

Quote from: Light DragonWhat about an airplane with a ramjet/scramjet that can land almost vertically?

I just can't really see the physics justification for a mile-long ship. The power needed to lift it into the air is one thing; the ability to avoid and destroy space junk and meteroites is another-- it just does not seem realistic.

well I was thinking that the purpose of these ships would be to basically be flying semi-trucks. They would breach the atmosphere and dock with massive interplanetary barges that could not land on the surface, load up with stuff, and fly it to the planet. These carracks would probably have some kind of singularity generator (or whatever fluff you want to use) - hence them not running out of fuel - and have some other fluffy technology that would allow them to stay aloft and even land if they wanted to within the atmosphere.

Quote from: Light DragonPersonally I think the setting can be better served by not having spaceships or ultra-high-tech at all. If not done perfectly, they can seem tacked on and campy.

I definitely run that risk for sure, it's bound to be there when you mesh genres. If you've read any of the Dune novels, that's kinda the feel I'm looking for - this contrast between high technology and ancient culture.

here's a repost of the art I did for what one of these ships would look like, as it's been pushed back to a previous page, if anyone didn't catch it earlier.

 (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_files/public/1250803442_959_FT69406_guild_carrack.jpg)

I just had an idea that seems plausible. What if this world wasn't even meant to be fully settled? What if the destruction of earth 1 was not seen, and this was just an experiment for world building and terraforming. Perhaps during this, scientists of great wealth could buy land on this new planet and use it to test their genetic engineering and its limits. This would be a good excuse to have prehistoric animals living on this planet. In a way, they would be more suited to living there then humans.

  Then suppose humans on earth 1 were given warning of the destruction of earth and fled, landing here on this testing/experiment planet.


    On the destruction of earth 1: maybe a solar flare that would have been stopped by a healthy atmosphere, but went right through earth's like butter, lighting up the entire planet. But the scientists, pioneers and workers living and working in ships or on land at the new planet were to far to be hurt by the radiation, and have a very healthy (engineered) ozone layer and atmosphere.

Sounds interesting Survivorman.

had a thought. instead of trying to explain how we made a whole new spherical planet, what about a halo shape world? or some other shape that would require far less materials to construct.

If you want a strange shape, how about an inner normal sized spherical planet, surrounded by a disc shape (sort of like saturns rings). This could add some of the strange landscape you wanted from your half of planet death star idea.

would the rings be solid platform-like things? maybe intended as huge farms? I was also thinking having the setting be on the inside of a planet, but I'm not sure if figuring out weather patterns would be all that fun, plus there would be no stars or any cool celestial things.

On the same not as your rings, what if this new planet slowly collected the fragments of Earth I and Earth II was surrounded by a rough ring of dust and rock that would have come from Earth I. So there would be no real moons, but oblong chunks of the first Earth and a Saturn-like ring.

I also think, that if this world turns out to be spherical, the middle will be a honey-comb like network of frames and support beams that would have some kind of massive machinery for some fluffy sci-fi purpose (as I'm not too keen on keeping everything mathematically correct, as that's not as much fun. :)) that could also double as a real underworld of pitch-black corridors and hellish, fire-spewing machines.

That sounds really cool. Perhaps there could even be "demons" that are in fact robots or something that work to keep the inside of earth 2 running right.

 The rings would be part of the planet, walkable and stuff, but would seem very strange and alien. My idea was that it was to hold in the planet while they were creating it, so it didn't get out of control. They meant to eventually remove it, but then the tragedy happened.

  Now, what was once a solid metal ring has been covered in layers of stone and sand. The ring is now an arrid, desert land where tribal clans rule and small frontier towns hide outlaws and outcasts.

  The problem is that there should be some difference between this ring and the inner world. I was thinking maybe its not protected as much from solar radiation, and living there or staying there could give you radiation poisoning and/or mutations. And maybe the native tribes (who were once workers living on the ring holding in the planet) evolved in such a way that the radiation doesn't affect them.

  Or even better, they worship the sun as a god that brings blessings (mutations) to their people, and takes their kind away to serve the sun god loyaly (tribe members killed by the radiation).

   Does this go along with what you're trying to do?

Quote from: SurvivormanThat sounds really cool. Perhaps there could even be "demons" that are in fact robots or something that work to keep the inside of earth 2 running right.

that was exactly what I was thinking. I was also thinking that the "foreman" robots, who would have been programmed with some form of AI to keep the other robots working, would be worshiped as kinds of Demon Lords if their AI fritzed and they went super-ego and power hungry?
I just have this image in my head of a huge industrial/worker robot that has been painted and decorated with religious icons as throngs of naked, flame wielding worshipers dance around it's feet.

I'm not too sold on the ring idea yet, except I did think that some historic invasion by the magic-wielding "Dragon Kings" (read: space workers who found a way to invade the world with advanced weapons and ships) who controlled a vast empire for centuries. Wouldn't be too unlike the rules in the movie Stargate.

maybe instead of a ring, a large scaffold would cover parts of the planet, which would also be home to "demons" who would descend to the planet from time to time for some purpose.

I really like that idea. You could run a camapign where the community the PCs live in worships the Gods up in the sky, and then the PCs find out that the "gods" are actually just descendants of ancient workers. The community sees it as blasphemy and puts them in prison and schedules them for execution.

[ic=Chal Pyol]The Dread City. The Black City. The Sorcerer's City. Many are the names that grace the tongues of those that speak of Chal Pyol. Silently sitting in the peripheral of the known lands of Pala Lum, long has the city subtly sent its agents into the great empires and cities of the northern lands. Always waiting in the shadows, the motives of Chal Pyol are as enigmatic as the rulers of the ebon city, the Sorcerous Houses. Hairless, with milk-blue eyes and skin as black as jet, the Sorcerers are as mysterious and intelligent as they are ruthless and narcissistic. They are the covetous guardians and keepers of knowledge that once belonged to the Ancient Ones, those who sailed the stars in ships of jade and iron and fire.

Seven dread ziggurats rise high above the thin strip of steam-covered jungle that  rests like a verdant ribbon between the endless blue of Great Sea to the west, and the lifeless, rust-hued mountains of Tzala Tchor to the east. The massive edifices are made of dark, nearly black stone. The cuts and angles are flawless and kept perfectly clean of the incessant vegetation of the jungle below. Motifs of serpents and celestial bodies adorn the ebon faces of the ziggurats. It is within these black towers the Sorcerous Houses make their abode. But below the ebon peaks of their temple is where the remainder of the city ekes out a living and struggles to survive in the shadows of their sorcerous masters. Made of the same black stone as the monuments that rise above them, the City-Below-The-Leaves is overgrown with jungle vegetation and infested with sacred serpents.

There are but two stratus in Chal Pyol '" the Sorcerers and the slaves. Kept in line through fear, alchemy, and things far darker, the vast majority of the Dread City is enslaved. In contrast to the sheer black of their masters, the skins and hair of the slaves of Chal Pyol are bleached white as children and they are adorned only in the whitest cloth. Amongst the black stone, the Sorcerers are as one with the city, while their slaves cannot hide even in the darkest shadow. No one knows how large the cities population truly is, as even the travelers that are allow past the immediate docks often encounter entire city wards devoid of population, seeing only the ghostly shapes of slaves running amongst the overgrown roots of the city. A handful of kings an emperors have declared their intents to invade the Black City, but all have been found flayed, burnt, or worse before the preparations could even be made.

Chal Pyol maintains minimal relations with the outside world. While the city does occasionally send merchant parties abroad, most trade comes to them. Alchemical compounds, strange emulsions and potions, rare powders, nightshade, lotuses, flowers, bones, and furs are what the Black City deals in. Slaves are never bought and never sold, as the Sorcerers like to keep close tabs on their own stock. When the Sorcerers are seen abroad, it most commonly in the wake of an event having to deal with some aspect of the Ancient Ones '" the unearthing of a relic, an archive being found, the awaking of their legions. It is said that the goal of the dread Sorcerers is to harness the full power of the Ancient Ones. While is only hearsay, the masters of Chal Pyol make no attempt to hide their lust for the long lost powers.
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Sounds cool. Just a thought: were the ziggurats built by the sorcerers and their slaves, or were they built before earth 1 was destroyed, and had another purpose?

Wow this has been gathering dust for a long time. Anyhow, some recent thoughts...

I've always wanted the planet itself to be an adversary as much as anything, and as the desert world is slightly played out, even though its still fantastic, I thought of taking the opposite route. Having a world just slightly further in orbit its star than Earth is, so that all the planet, save for a temperate strip around the equator, would be nonarable, uninhabitable dry, cold desert and great glacial wastes. And as much as I cringe when I see the Star Wars-esque single biom planet, I have an image of nearly all the land along the equator being low, rolling hills, not unlike central Asia. Also, with all the the glaciers to the north and south, I would figure that many rivers would cut through the land as well, creating many canyons and gorges of various depths. Also, have a thought of bordering the known world on the west and east by seas, making the known world large enough to be plausible, but still contained enough that a single base culture would flourish throughout.

As for that culture, I have a single thought: conservative, traditional family clans.

Also thinking about putting this world right at the cusp of widespread firearms and chemical weapons, although obviously in a different way than Earths history.

so Ive had another thought about, on one hand, bumping the base technology level this setting to 11, while on the other, using social taboos and cultural and political development to keep other things on a very, relatviely, low-tech level, mostly things relating to war.

I'm not sure whether to expand the scope of this setting to a single system or quasi-galactic size. But that may be for another time.

Anyhow, this is what I'm thinking about as an explanation for the the low/high technology contrast:

As mentioned before, humankind would have settled this world, however long ago, at an already advanced level. This also creates the issue that humanity began its existance on this world as a unified race, knowledgable race, as opposed to our history, where mankind developed in many different places and many different ways, more or less isolated from each other for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. This inturn would make a general culture shared by all humans plausible, if not more than likely. But anyhow, as I've also mentioned, humans, in absence of developed states, would organize themselves into family clans (which I think I will call Vos, or Vosi in plural) of varying sizes, strengths, and specializations.

Sometime in the fairly distance past (2,000 years, more or less) a massive and exceptionally brutal and bloody war broke out amongst the Vosi at the advent of chemical-based weapons and firearms. Lasting for hundreds of years and decimating generations, the Great Pact was eventually reached by the leaders of the most powerful Vosi that would go something like this:

1. Strict Rules of War. The Vosi agreed that wars should be fought only between warring Vosi, that no neutral Vos or civilian populations would be involved in these vendettas. Vendettas would have to be requested and presented before the newly formed Archamid, the Vosi Council. and lastly, and most importantly, weapons of war would be limited to those that would do the least amount of collateral damage and those that lacked an ability to kill indiscriminately: the Peace of Knives. In a word, war and its practice would be forever frozen in the ways before the advent of firearms and chemical weapons.

2. The Banning of Certain Technologies. These would primarily be focused in any realm that could shift or threaten the Peace of Knives. So while other fields would continue to advance: medicine, transportation and flight, computer sciences, etc., others would be severly crippled or outright banned.

3. The Agreement of all the Vosi of the Archamid to unite without hestitation against any particular Vos that would threaten any part of the Great Pact.

4. The Vos Volathi. The "Ghost Clan", or the Vos Volathi, would be an invisible, landless Vos that would have the unique advantage of allowing members of other Vosi to join. The Vos Volathi would be the invisible police and spies amongst the Vosi, seraching for anything threat to the Great Pact and, if needed, silencing any particular individual that did so. Members of the Ghost Clan would be recruited, secretly, and could be anyone from a simple layman to a power-broker in any particular Vos.

Throughout the history since the Great Pact, there would have been several attempts to upset the balance, mostly through a breaking of the Peace of Knives, but all attempts were foiled to on extant or another and nearly all the Vosi follow the rules of the Great Pact to the letter.

So there is my explanation for why spaceships and swords co-exist.

I hope that wasn't too wordy and made sense.