The Campaign Builder's Guild

I've decided to split any discussion in the original thread off into this thread in order to keep the canon separate from the talk and ideas.

Mare Eternus Official Thread (http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,67936.0.html)
Mare Eternus Wiki (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Mare_Eternus)

First, I would just like to say that I find this a rather interesting setting and something I have really never seen before.

Here are a few preliminary questions I have about the setting.

Humans: How are they portrayed in the setting? Are they the standard RPG fair or do they have unique abilities? Are they a dominate force in the setting or a small minority?

Is there sunlight? If so, how is it produced/where does it come? How does it factor into a day and night cycle?

How does one navigate from one worldlet/microworld to another? Is it a simple matter of following a set pattern or map? If so, how do they account for the drift? Are there navigational markers of some kind or a type of advance nav system?

Is there some type of magic or psionics? If it is a tech setting is there some type of unique ability that can be done with it?

How fragile are the air pockets around the Worldlets? I understand how a grayweed colony could destroy one, but would a sub ramming into one destroy it? How about a massive explosion from within?

What happens to a cauldron-cranker after the engine is removed? Does it become completely inert?  Does something happen to it? Can a cauldron-cranker be completely striped of parts and recycled?

Can a person fashion a gear/cog and use it to replace one that is already present on a clockwork device?

Quote from: XXsiriusXX
Humans: How are they portrayed in the setting? Are they the standard RPG fair or do they have unique abilities? Are they a dominate force in the setting or a small minority?

There are no humans in The Expanse. If you wanted to play one the closest you would get would be playing a Maeri (and even they have noticeable differences from standard human stock).

Quote from: XXsiriusXX
Is there sunlight? If so, how is it produced/where does it come? How does it factor into a day and night cycle?

There isn't sunlight as there's no such thing as a sun or star in ME. The ocean does have a glow though, on average about what you'd expect if you were 10-20 feet underwater on a sunny day. The glow is brightest from directly above and dimmest directly below. There doesn't seem to be any actual source for it though as no matter how far you travel the glow is always coming from directly above you at the same brightness. Actual brightness does depend on the conditions of the water around you though. Murkier areas of the ocean are dimmer and very crystal clear areas are much brighter.

Regarding day/night I haven't fully decided on this. To be honest I've had a bit of trouble deciding on how to handle sleep. Should I simulate a day/night cycle in some way? How do I do so without it coming across as contrived? Do I not have day/night? If so how do I handle sleep?

Quote from: XXsiriusXX
How does one navigate from one worldlet/microworld to another? Is it a simple matter of following a set pattern or map? If so, how do they account for the drift? Are there navigational markers of some kind or a type of advance nav system?

The Expanse is pretty stable and worlds tend to stay pretty much where you'd expect them (over long time spans though they can drift all over the place). Smaller worlds will drift more obviously. There are navigational beacons and other methods of pinpointing worlds though I haven't yet fully decided on how I'm going to do that.

Quote from: XXsiriusXX
Is there some type of magic or psionics? If it is a tech setting is there some type of unique ability that can be done with it?

The magic is in the clockwork. I'd label it a sort of magitech setting in that the special effects are in magic that is produced through a pseudo-technological process. It's also subtle. You might have a cog that turns forever with no input and that has infinite torque or perhaps a piston that emits water out its exhaust tube without any water being put in. The sort of things that obviously break physics, but only when you sit down with them and examine them for a moment. The flashy stuff comes from combining these subtle parts together into creating incredible machines (which is what the inhabitants of ME do all the time). This is where alot of the wonder from the setting comes from.

Quote from: XXsiriusXX
How fragile are the air pockets around the Worldlets? I understand how a grayweed colony could destroy one, but would a sub ramming into one destroy it? How about a massive explosion from within?

Ah well worlds don't have air pockets around them. The air is internal. The worlds aren't analogous to our world in that it is a solid sphere with an atmosphere around it. They are shaped more like asteroids and the air is inside them inside caverns and caves that crisscross their interiors. Where these caves come near to the surface of the world you will often find unbreakable domes, some many miles across and all looking out into the ocean. These would probably be equivalent to the sky on earth in that they look out into the great expanse (space/the sea).

Quote from: XXsiriusXX
What happens to a cauldron-cranker after the engine is removed? Does it become completely inert?  Does something happen to it? Can a cauldron-cranker be completely striped of parts and recycled?

It'd just float around in the water as a derelict just the same as if you removed the engine from any other submarine. And yes it can be stripped down. All a CC is, is a prop driven submarine that has a Cauldron Stack (a certain type of clockwork mechanism that is quite common) in place of a standard boiler.

Quote from: XXsiriusXX
Can a person fashion a gear/cog and use it to replace one that is already present on a clockwork device?

Sure, though I'm not sure why someone would do this. Generally people who pull bits of clockwork off of things do it to loot the clockwork (it's very valuable) and don't really care about the continued operation of the machine. Since "breaking" clockwork devices doesn't seem to do anything other than separate the components few people show much concern over attempting repairs.

Glad to see you're posting this, I remember when you first were thinking about it. I'm reading right now, but I might not get to actually posting about it till tomorrow. It is getting late after all.

Edit: I'm adding my thoughts here as I read through this. I can't sleep, so I've got the time.

*A liquid universe poses a problem of gravity and pressure. If gravity is focused on the drifting worlds themselves, then you could get away with having a relatively even pressure all across (patches of low pressure would be fine as phantom gravity anomalies). Granted, this is only if you want physics to matter.

*A fun technological/magical item that comes to mind would be a device used to track worldlets. Of course, you would have to have been to one before to attune to it, but then you could follow your proximity to a given worldlet. I'm imagining this in video game mode, sort of like some of the endless sailing you do in "The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker" when you're looking for new islands.

*I'm loving the feel I'm getting as I read this. I foresee games set in this world will be focused around exploration, both of lost worldlets and seeking out known ones. A common trope would work well for this setting: The adventurers work for a map making guild. That would be cool.

*You mention brass a lot. I made maille out of brass, and it turned the clothes I wore under it blue; it oxidizes easily. So when you say brass, do you mean bright, shiny, fiery brass, or dull oxidized brass? You can have whichever you want, I just want clarification. LOL.

Heading to bed now, I'll post more questions in another thread later.

Quote from: NomadicThe Crystalline Prisms
At first they seem like nothing more than adornments for the mechanisms. Indeed the mechanisms are covered in other decorations. Pearls, gemstones, inlaid silver and gold, even strange paintings and markings from time to time. But nothing, none of those pieces seems quite as alive as the prisms. Some are as small as a grain of sand, others larger than mountains, but all of them thrum and vibrate, and all of them glow with an eerie inner light. Of all the clockwork these are the most surreal and the least understood. And it is for that reason that most people attribute the "intelligence" of the clockwork to them. They are the only part of it that no technology has come from. Research of the crystals has turned up nothing except that they glow, are indestructible, and that their haunting pulsations can warp a persons mind.

[ic=The Prism Collective]
Technologically the crystals have had very little use. Outside of lighting and cutting or scratching hard surfaces they have little actual use to "mortal" hands. Religiously though they have had a greater impact than the rest of the clockwork combined. The Prism Collective is the largest example of this. A loose belief that the crystals are a link to god and through them he speaks his divine will. Listeners, those accepted into the faith will spend so much time every day in close contact with a prism, listening to the thrum and waiting for some inspiration to strike. While it is debatable as to whether the inspiration is divine, or just the results of a slowly scrambling mind, the inspiration does happen and practitioners have been the hands behind some of the most complex and amazing creations in history.

Are there any other types of permanent effects that are caused by the Prisms?  What happens when a prism is removed?                        

Quote from: XXsiriusXX
Are there any other types of permanent effects that are caused by the Prisms?  What happens when a prism is removed?                        

Nobody knows. All that is known is that they put out alot of diffuse light and extended physical contact with them will drive you nutty. As to the last bit, they are just like the rest of the clockwork in that they can be removed or placed back where they were. However as they are seen as more sinister or holy by many people they tend to be left alone.

Actually that is the reason that there still is clockwork to be found. It has some amazing properties but many people are untrusting of it and of those that aren't, most revere it as sacred and wouldn't dare touch it (with the exception of the few religions that use bits of clockwork as relics and focuses). That leaves only those reckless enough to mess with it or those that don't believe it is harmful/sacrilegious to touch it.

Making an ocean world has its own special challenges.  I believe this to be true because the ocean has no default geography - the bottom does, but an eternal ocean has no bottom, just water.  Water is essentially featureless.  In this way it's perhaps closest to a space setting: the "places of interest" are discrete points in a void (to use the space analogy, planets, stars, asteroids, and so on).  While there might be something in the interstellar medium (comets, a derelict ship), the "terrain" really plays no role as such.  It exists only insofar as it requires time to cross it.  I can see an ocean world falling prey to this "featurelessness" in which the ocean is no more than a medium between planets (or worldlets, in your case).  On the other hand, the opposite situation would be a cluttered ocean, with points of interest in such close proximity that the ocean ceases to be meaningful at all save as a negligible buffer between far more interesting places.

I think the most inspired thing in this setting is also one of the most basic - currents.  We're provided here with something that goes (almost) everywhere without making things too cluttered, because physically a current is just more water (water with purpose, though).  The currents, I presume, can bring almost anything anywhere, and the gaps between them are especially intriguing and mysterious.

The forests of kelp are equally helpful because they provide terrain to the terrain-less ocean.  Someplace to hide, a change in scenery, a habitat - it sounds like small stuff but it's really huge when characters are exploring.  All that said, I still imagine it will be a challenge to find a balance between an empty sea and a cluttered one - and an even greater challenge to map this setting.  I mean, aside from the fact that all maps are pointless because nearly everything moves, how do you map in 3D anyway?

So, moving on from that general stuff, a few things I'd like to see/hear about:

I didn't see any mention of gravity.  Since there is presumably no up or down where there is no surface or sea floor, which way do people "fall," if any?  Do they float towards the nearest worldlet/other mass?  Is "down" just some universal arbitrary direction?  Do they choose which direction is down?  Or maybe "down" exists in the worlds but not outside them.

You mention that the outflow of pipes has a negligible effect on the already erratic movement of worlds.  Is there any known way to "steer" a world, even if only slightly?  It seems like this would be a pretty big priority of a world's inhabitants, as they'd want to avoid getting sucked into some doldrum if at all possible.

Something that strikes me about the currents is the political implications carried by the fact that everything moves constantly.  There can't really be any multi-world states, nor can people conquer or establish colonies in the traditional sense - your new conquest inevitably becomes independent.  There must be a lot of apprehension as to where your society is heading next, to the point where I'd expect people to send out patrols to figure out what lies down the current (though if the pace is really slow it may not matter).  It seems like the transient nature of conquest and settlement would make the residents of worlds less aggressive; there's simply less to be gained.

In chat, we talked about leaving mystery for players/GMs, something we're apparently both big fans of.  To me, however, races are so crucial for the character of a setting that I'm not comfortable with leaving that as a big question mark.  Sure, a new people could pop up from some distant world or current, but I really feel that some common/widespread races should be discussed and defined.  Your very loose descriptions of the kind of creatures here - based on what they breathe - leaves a whole lot of room for interpretation.  That can be good, but it can also be daunting for people who don't regularly create races and societies out of thin air and post them on message boards ( :-p ).

All in all it's a good read and I'm interested to see more.  I suggested transportation to you and we should have a new topic on Sunday, so there shouldn't be any problem there...

Quote from: Nomadic
Submersibles
Manual Powered (propeller)
Other Names: Manuals, Handevrhan Ships, Barnyards - The oldest known submersible vessels were tiny hand cranked contraptions large enough for a single person. Since then the development of new technologies has pushed these manual ships to the bottom of the heap. However their unmatched reliability has prevented them from totally disappearing. Modern Handevrhan Ships (a corruption of the term "hand over hand" which is a reference to how the crank systems on many of them work) tend to be slow but very large vessels. Most often seen in the roles of freight and fishing vessels they still serve their purpose as heavy duty haulers. However, most modern manuals are propelled not by hand, but by animal power. Generally this is in the form of slower but greatly enduring beasts of burden (this leading to the nickname "barnyards").

Their propulsion in principle is quite simple, muscle power is used to turn cranks or spin gears which translate that power to torque on one or more long shafts. These shafts, extending out the back of the vessel, are capped with propellers and the provided torque spins them providing thrust. Turning is generally performed through a series of rudders and smaller individual crank propellers which allows these ships to turn a surprisingly tight circle. Communication on such a vessel is key and leaders (nicknamed loudmouths) are often put in charge of crank teams so that they can relay the captains orders quickly to the teams.

Interesting. When I read this I instantly thought of Final Fantasy X's chocobo powered ships.  I am assuming that the number of animals is depended upon the size of the ship. What types of unique animals are used?  On the barnyard ships are there backup systems in case the animals are killed?

I'm really interested in reading about the subs offensive and defensive systems.

Quote from: XXsiriusXXInteresting. When I read this I instantly thought of Final Fantasy X's chocobo powered ships.  I am assuming that the number of animals is depended upon the size of the ship. What types of unique animals are used?  On the barnyard ships are there backup systems in case the animals are killed?

I'm really interested in reading about the subs offensive and defensive systems.

Any type of animal that could handle the strain could be used. I haven't yet detailed the area itself just the overall setting so I can't answer questions like war history or particular local animals. As to the backup... that would be the muscles of the ships crew.

There is now a badge for Mare Eternus. Please feel to take one Vreeg and Sirius.

(http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/images/7/73/Mebadge.png)

Those pictures you posted sure do give that 'speck in a huge ocean' feel that ME seems to be shooting for.  Especially with the dim lighting.  
How does gravity work, or is this somehting that is mysterious right now?

Quote from: LordVreegThose pictures you posted sure do give that 'speck in a huge ocean' feel that ME seems to be shooting for.  Especially with the dim lighting. 
How does gravity work, or is this somehting that is mysterious right now?

Gravity has a set down for the entire universe. The physics in Mare Eternus are a bit funky like that and I think in some ways things like this give it a strong sense of high fantasy with the very matter of the universe having arcane leanings to it.

Ever play Submarine Titans?

Quote from: Light Dragon
Ever play Submarine Titans?

Nope, though a google search shows some interesting images (I do love a good RTS). Perhaps I'll check it out one day.

to be honest, I haven't really read too much into Mare Eternum, so I'm sure some of my questions may have already been answered. As of now, like I said, I don't know too much, so my questions may be limited until I read up a bit.

How do ships (if thats what they are called) fight when they are in the sea between the worlds? somekind of magitech cannon? boarding parties? crystal lasers?

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: LordVreegThose pictures you posted sure do give that 'speck in a huge ocean' feel that ME seems to be shooting for.  Especially with the dim lighting. 
How does gravity work, or is this somehting that is mysterious right now?

Gravity has a set down for the entire universe. The physics in Mare Eternus are a bit funky like that and I think in some ways things like this give it a strong sense of high fantasy with the very matter of the universe having arcane leanings to it.

More Mare Eternus is good Mare Eternus.  All over this.
Rise, thread.  RIIISSSSE!!!

Quote from: Señor Leetz
to be honest, I haven't really read too much into Mare Eternum, so I'm sure some of my questions may have already been answered. As of now, like I said, I don't know too much, so my questions may be limited until I read up a bit.

How do ships (if thats what they are called) fight when they are in the sea between the worlds? somekind of magitech cannon? boarding parties? crystal lasers?

The ships that travel between worlds are submarines so the most common form of weaponry are torpedoes. Other common weaponry includes reinforced rams, harpoons, and mines. There are a number of more exotic weapons. The most famous being thunderguns which are basically shockwave generators. I've also considered even more bizarre weapons though nothing is set in stone. I like your idea of magic cannons or lasers though I'd probably limit those to one of a kind artifact weapons.

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Señor Leetz
to be honest, I haven't really read too much into Mare Eternum, so I'm sure some of my questions may have already been answered. As of now, like I said, I don't know too much, so my questions may be limited until I read up a bit.

How do ships (if thats what they are called) fight when they are in the sea between the worlds? somekind of magitech cannon? boarding parties? crystal lasers?

The ships that travel between worlds are submarines so the most common form of weaponry are torpedoes. Other common weaponry includes reinforced rams, harpoons, and mines. There are a number of more exotic weapons. The most famous being thunderguns which are basically shockwave generators. I've also considered even more bizarre weapons though nothing is set in stone. I like your idea of magic cannons or lasers though I'd probably limit those to one of a kind artifact weapons.

Should I imagine something tense and suspensful, like The Hunt for Red October? Or should I imagine giant submarines studded with glowing portholes, broadsiding each other to smitherines?

Quote from: Señor Leetz

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Señor Leetz
to be honest, I haven't really read too much into Mare Eternum, so I'm sure some of my questions may have already been answered. As of now, like I said, I don't know too much, so my questions may be limited until I read up a bit.

How do ships (if thats what they are called) fight when they are in the sea between the worlds? somekind of magitech cannon? boarding parties? crystal lasers?

The ships that travel between worlds are submarines so the most common form of weaponry are torpedoes. Other common weaponry includes reinforced rams, harpoons, and mines. There are a number of more exotic weapons. The most famous being thunderguns which are basically shockwave generators. I've also considered even more bizarre weapons though nothing is set in stone. I like your idea of magic cannons or lasers though I'd probably limit those to one of a kind artifact weapons.

Should I imagine something tense and suspensful, like The Hunt for Red October? Or should I imagine giant submarines studded with glowing portholes, broadsiding each other to smitherines?

The battles are very Star Wars in style. So lots of close range broadsides and frantic "knife range" fights.

I haven't gotten a chance to read yet, so for now just want to say WOO HOO mare eternus! Looking forward to sinking my teeth into this!

Who does / did your map and race art? All looks great.

Quote from: Ninja Dovahk!!n
Who does / did your map and race art? All looks great.

I can reasonably confirm the man did his own maps - he's got mad map skills.

I seem to remember that, also.

Aye the map is me (http://garrettdmorrison.deviantart.com/). The racial art is by Psudonym (http://psudos.daportfolio.com/) who is a very talented and pretty awesome artist in general.

Him still owes me mappage...MWA-HA-HA

Quote from: LordVreeg
Him still owes me mappage...MWA-HA-HA

Yea I just need you to get back to me with what you want for the map. I know we had a discussion on things and you gave me a general idea of what you wanted but I didn't get full details. Sadly I also lost the notes for what we did discuss. If you'd still like that map I'll totally do it for you, just PM me.

Just added an overview of the playable races to the main thread. Still working on the information for the Gerrag and Tilei.

The bit with the Nicu being open to other religions (and faiths and belief systems, or so I took it)  really helped me with their psychology. 

How woould you rank the races in terms of how faith/spirituality matter to the race as a whole, and then as compared to how religion affects each?

Hmm, your race posts focus mostly on the historical/cultural differences and details - are there any biological/psychological differences between your races and the baseline humans?

What separates nicu and human for instance, I can't quite tell from the image (aside from the eyes).

A racial description would be nice at some point too, to supplement the (great) art!

Quote from: LordVreeg
The bit with the Nicu being open to other religions (and faiths and belief systems, or so I took it)  really helped me with their psychology. 

How woould you rank the races in terms of how faith/spirituality matter to the race as a whole, and then as compared to how religion affects each?

I'd say with exception to the Aerlin (who threw off the strict religious practices of their fellows) all of the races have some close links to spirituality and/or religion. The Nicu place probably the most importance on average in what they believe. The Maeri aren't super-religious but they are highly spiritual. The Gerrag have numerous religious beliefs, the biggest is one that gives a religious importance to the search for knowledge and wisdom. The Tilei are a mixture of Gerrag religions they've held onto and tribal practices of their own. So yea a large majority of The Expanse is influenced by religion in some way or another. Obviously this is on average taking these groups as a whole. Individuals can vary wildly in what they believe.

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Hmm, your race posts focus mostly on the historical/cultural differences and details - are there any biological/psychological differences between your races and the baseline humans?

What separates nicu and human for instance, I can't quite tell from the image (aside from the eyes).

A racial description would be nice at some point too, to supplement the (great) art!

Great question. I think physiology is something that I need to reserve for the wiki though. The racial descriptions I'm giving on the forums are from the aspect of explaining the look and feel of the species and why a player might want to play one. There are I imagine a few physiological characteristics that are worth explaining though and I will certainly try and add them to the descriptions. For example the Nicu are taller and heavier than humans and are probably the physically strongest of the crafter races. Their skin is also more rubbery (like a dolphins) which gives it a bit of a shine. Only female Nicu have hair on their bodies, and that is thin wispy hair on the head. So yea things like that I can probably go over (probably as part of a general physical description as opposed to the physiological depth I might go into on the wiki).

How much do these races intermingle? Are there many mixed communities within the Expanse?

Quote from: Ghostman
How much do these races intermingle? Are there many mixed communities within the Expanse?

They intermingle quite commonly. The only nations that are single species would be some of the Maeri tribes, Nuaso, and the Aerlin of Bhatsu. In general though a majority of The Expanse is a hodgepodge of people. The density and mixture of people depends on where you are. The Pearl Way Alliance has large numbers of interacting Maeri, Nicu, and Aerlin as well as some small groups of Tilei. The Kingdom of Outssi and Tileini both have a large mixture of Gerrag and Tilei residents.

Just added some information on Glimmershards to the bargain bin, they are crystals that can house souls (the foundations of ancestral weapons, thinking machines, and essentially the ME equivalent of a computer).

http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,67936.msg212201.html#msg212201

A question I have to grapple with now is what exactly I want for technology levels and how to work with that. I think by this point I've pretty much cemented The Hub as the center of technology at its height within The Expanse. The Pearl Way has its foundations in some very technologically driven nations and alot of war and strife has served as a viable catalyst for pushing through these new technologies. As it stands I see the past history of the Alliance combined with a need to protect its huge territory and manage its massive population driving technological development forward. If it were to stagnate developmentally it would likely crumble as nearby neighbors like Traullia or the various pirate factions made strikes and grabs at it like the barbarians did to Rome. It's on pretty good terms with Merdi and Skendaasia but that's largely economic and I have no doubt either of them would take the chance to grab a slice of alliance territory if they could. Same for Ikaedia. So then all these internal and external threats serve as a good explanation for why the alliance should be the most technologically advanced.

In terms of a technology cap I'm thinking of putting them at roughly the equivalent of the Renaissance Era. Flintlock guns and gunpowder, star forts, popularity of the rapier among the wealthy, etc. However I'm also throwing lots of steam power in (for obvious reasons) which I imagine is going to throw a wrench into the works on nailing down how their technology would affect their society. This is something I need to consider when I think of how life is for them (agriculture, trade, transportation, communication, warfare, etc). I'm also thinking of having electricity as a very new invention (basically if you aren't living in one of the largest cities in the hub you won't have any idea about it) so more of a novelty than anything else but one that will add extra spice to the largest metropolitan areas of alliance waters.

Other technologically advanced areas with active inventor communities include the Gerrag kingdom of Outssi which is driven oddly enough by a prominent local religion that venerates knowledge and wisdom as greatest above all else. Merdi itself will also be quite advanced, thanks in part to a rich trade between them and the alliance. Traullia, Ikaedia, and Indacus will have smaller yet viable technological bases which keep them from falling too far behind the pack. I'd imagine the Pearl Way and Outssi leading the charge and being places where you would expect the newer stuff. Traullia, Ikaedia, and Indacus will probably be early Ren era with a mixture of gunpowder with older stuff. You'll see alot more of what you would consider traditional medieval fare in their areas. However you'll still see a bit of the newer stuff too (I imagine alot of it being influenced by the developments in alliance territory).

Below these are places like Tileini, Ragaria, Havan, and the various independent worlds of outer Zendakol. These will have at best crude gunpowder devices on average. Merchants do get out to these places but their wares are at a premium due to high demand and low supply and so only the wealthy in these areas can enjoy the advanced technologies of the far away nations. Havan is a bit of an oddball actually in that it has a strong pirate culture. This culture is one that tends to prey more on the locals obviously. However, Havan's borders are pretty loose and pirate activity freely leaks out from it as far away as alliance waters from time to time. So you'll sometimes see quite advanced tech in the hands of these people.

The Expanse is very nebulous and so the extent of certain technologies is equally unclear. In short technology goes all the way from late Renaissance era in the thick of civilization all the way down to early Renaissance and Medieval era stuff in the fringes (even into tribal levels in the most remote and forgotten places). The one factor that all areas have some of is steam technology. This is due to the prevalence of the clockwork. Natural curiosity of it is enough that even the most backwards places will have some rudimentary mechanical knowledge. Only the most "barbaric" tribals of the forgotten worlds lack an understanding of the steam engine for example.

I'm not fully sure of the repercussions these decisions will have on my setting though so I'm asking for any feedback on possible unforeseen consequences of having these sorts of technologies available. Any thoughts or comments?

How does the level of technology affect people's ability to travel through the ocean? It seems that the ability to construct functional submersibles would be an absolutely pivotal factor in determining one's place in the world - kind of like the warp-enabled species vs pre-warp species in Star Trek.

Regarding the steam tech, I think you need fairly advanced metallurgy to make realiable, reasonably safe steamworks for practical uses (as opposed to novelty gizmoes that are only for show). Cf. the rather long history of steampower experiments VS the quite late emergence of the practical steam engine in our world.

Quote from: Nomadic
A question I have to grapple with now is what exactly I want for technology levels and how to work with that. I think by this point I've pretty much cemented The Hub as the center of technology at its height within The Expanse. The Pearl Way has its foundations in some very technologically driven nations and alot of war and strife has served as a viable catalyst for pushing through these new technologies. As it stands I see the past history of the Alliance combined with a need to protect its huge territory and manage its massive population driving technological development forward. If it were to stagnate developmentally it would likely crumble as nearby neighbors like Traullia or the various pirate factions made strikes and grabs at it like the barbarians did to Rome. It's on pretty good terms with Merdi and Skendaasia but that's largely economic and I have no doubt either of them would take the chance to grab a slice of alliance territory if they could. Same for Ikaedia. So then all these internal and external threats serve as a good explanation for why the alliance should be the most technologically advanced.

In terms of a technology cap I'm thinking of putting them at roughly the equivalent of the Renaissance Era. Flintlock guns and gunpowder, star forts, popularity of the rapier among the wealthy, etc. However I'm also throwing lots of steam power in (for obvious reasons) which I imagine is going to throw a wrench into the works on nailing down how their technology would affect their society. This is something I need to consider when I think of how life is for them (agriculture, trade, transportation, communication, warfare, etc). I'm also thinking of having electricity as a very new invention (basically if you aren't living in one of the largest cities in the hub you won't have any idea about it) so more of a novelty than anything else but one that will add extra spice to the largest metropolitan areas of alliance waters.

Other technologically advanced areas with active inventor communities include the Gerrag kingdom of Outssi which is driven oddly enough by a prominent local religion that venerates knowledge and wisdom as greatest above all else. Merdi itself will also be quite advanced, thanks in part to a rich trade between them and the alliance. Traullia, Ikaedia, and Indacus will have smaller yet viable technological bases which keep them from falling too far behind the pack. I'd imagine the Pearl Way and Outssi leading the charge and being places where you would expect the newer stuff. Traullia, Ikaedia, and Indacus will probably be early Ren era with a mixture of gunpowder with older stuff. You'll see alot more of what you would consider traditional medieval fare in their areas. However you'll still see a bit of the newer stuff too (I imagine alot of it being influenced by the developments in alliance territory).

Below these are places like Tileini, Ragaria, Havan, and the various independent worlds of outer Zendakol. These will have at best crude gunpowder devices on average. Merchants do get out to these places but their wares are at a premium due to high demand and low supply and so only the wealthy in these areas can enjoy the advanced technologies of the far away nations. Havan is a bit of an oddball actually in that it has a strong pirate culture. This culture is one that tends to prey more on the locals obviously. However, Havan's borders are pretty loose and pirate activity freely leaks out from it as far away as alliance waters from time to time. So you'll sometimes see quite advanced tech in the hands of these people.

The Expanse is very nebulous and so the extent of certain technologies is equally unclear. In short technology goes all the way from late Renaissance era in the thick of civilization all the way down to early Renaissance and Medieval era stuff in the fringes (even into tribal levels in the most remote and forgotten places). The one factor that all areas have some of is steam technology. This is due to the prevalence of the clockwork. Natural curiosity of it is enough that even the most backwards places will have some rudimentary mechanical knowledge. Only the most "barbaric" tribals of the forgotten worlds lack an understanding of the steam engine for example.

I'm not fully sure of the repercussions these decisions will have on my setting though so I'm asking for any feedback on possible unforeseen consequences of having these sorts of technologies available. Any thoughts or comments?

I think one of the biggest things to come out of this is that your largest and most advanced cultures will have an opportunity to dominate others and expand very freely. Those advancements in technology will give any society that possesses them a huge edge, even if the common soldiers and whatnot on both sides are armed with pretty much the same weapons. The chief advantages are that they're going to be able to manufacture, develop and repair goods quicker, and guild-like organizations will be more prominent as there'll be more ability to specialize and master in a particular trade instead of people needing to diversify to support themselves. This technology also has a major effect on moving people around; if you have steam-powered transport that makes it quicker to move than before, you're going to find that the common population will know more about larger areas of the world and many of them might even regularly travel.

If you'd like I'd be more than happy to discuss particular technologies on a less general level, either here or via chat :D.

Quote from: Ghostman
How does the level of technology affect people's ability to travel through the ocean? It seems that the ability to construct functional submersibles would be an absolutely pivotal factor in determining one's place in the world - kind of like the warp-enabled species vs pre-warp species in Star Trek.

This is a good question. I think that inter-world travel will be something that is quite old by this point. The oldest submarines would be muscle powered. Hand cranks, treadmills of some form, possibly even some oar analogues. These would be what you would see in tribal cultures. Most tribal cultures don't yet have a grasp on the concept of creating breathable air so these are short range vessels limited by how much oxygen they can carry. The more advanced groups have access to re-breathing technologies of some form or another as well as access to steam engines so their range is greatly increased. This is why the ocean is dominated culturally by the more advanced groups like the alliance, outssi, and merdi. These groups have advanced submarines with effectively limitless range and the ability to travel hundreds of miles in a day.

Quote from: Ghostman
Regarding the steam tech, I think you need fairly advanced metallurgy to make realiable, reasonably safe steamworks for practical uses (as opposed to novelty gizmoes that are only for show). Cf. the rather long history of steampower experiments VS the quite late emergence of the practical steam engine in our world.

Well the concept of the steam engine (once you've grasped the basics behind how to make one work) isn't overly advanced. You can actually make one out of something as simple as wood provided the part you are heating the water in is fireproof. IIRC the main reason the steam engine came in so late is that the powers of the time when experimentation with steam power started in earnest saw no need for such a device as they had numerous slaves that did the work fine already. Granted there's more to it than just that. Obviously yes the best engines are made of quality materials like copper which can last longer and be more easily fitted and sealed.

I'd say probably the biggest difference between ME and the real world here would be the existence of the clockwork which would serve as early inspiration for steam and clockwork based technology driving it forward much faster than in the real world. I could be wrong but I see the presence of such a thing giving inventors strong inspiration which could drive the invention of practical steam power forward hundreds of years sooner.

Quote from: OmegaLimit
I think one of the biggest things to come out of this is that your largest and most advanced cultures will have an opportunity to dominate others and expand very freely. Those advancements in technology will give any society that possesses them a huge edge, even if the common soldiers and whatnot on both sides are armed with pretty much the same weapons.

A good thought. I think I should probably re-examine how far influence could be potentially spread by such tech. To some degree I have factored it in already in that I see these powerhouses as a central core of technology and culture within their own territory with worlds just beyond the borders not being directly under their control but still being influenced by their presence. The farther you get from their territory the less noticeable this is. I think probably what I need to think on the most is how quickly this influence would drop off.

Quote from: OmegaLimit
The chief advantages are that they're going to be able to manufacture, develop and repair goods quicker, and guild-like organizations will be more prominent as there'll be more ability to specialize and master in a particular trade instead of people needing to diversify to support themselves. This technology also has a major effect on moving people around; if you have steam-powered transport that makes it quicker to move than before, you're going to find that the common population will know more about larger areas of the world and many of them might even regularly travel.

See this is huge and something I hadn't really thought on, specialization. The advanced nations would be thick with mechanical systems that would allow specialization to a high degree (this actually helps me justify the primary trade guild's home being within the alliance territory and by extension why its trade language is so prevalent). I think save for the isolated tribals even the very backwards places will have some manufacturing capability via steam driven mechanical devices. They won't be on the cutting edge of technology but they won't be so far behind that they're seen as barbaric. More like the hicks out in the sticks compared to the fancy pants city folk.

I remember reading Mare Eternus a lot in the past and really liking what you had, but it has admittedly been a while and I'd forgotten exactly what appealed to me despite knowing that the setting is pretty freakin' awesome. I really like that you made the maeri primarily left-handed; it might have something to do with being left-handed myself, but this reversal is very interesting. I like the tattoos and the prominence you give them in maeri society. The dichotomy that you've created between traditionalists and progressives within maeri circles as well as the fact that the traditional materials for such tattoos are becoming rarer and rarer seems to me like it'll add a plethora of opportunities for roleplay in any games you run - if you do and I get to play, I'm totally going to play a maeri traditionalist.

The detail that you put into the setting-specific insults is great. Every time I try to do it, I find that my attempts are pretty contrived but with yours I can actually see myself playing a character and using the insults. As for the glimmershards, although we've already discussed them in chat I want to say again that I really like the kind of implications they'll have for intelligent constructs - it's a fresh way to introduce them in a setting that they complement well.

I think what I'd like to see next is a more local treatment of something - a city, maybe even just a district of a city, and a few of its inhabitants would be cool, or maybe you could talk about some fabled artifacts of Artunis in greater detail.

Quote from: OmegaLimit
I think what I'd like to see next is a more local treatment of something - a city, maybe even just a district of a city, and a few of its inhabitants would be cool, or maybe you could talk about some fabled artifacts of Artunis in greater detail.

Added a little town blurb to the bottom of the bargain bin, just for you (because who's awesome? you're awesome!). I'll also think about some Artunis stuff though I think that would be more of a discussion for IRC.

The town you added looks like it's pretty much ready to go, which is great. Feels like it'd be easy to get attached to in a game (and thus you could do horrible things to it, creating AWESOME plot twists :D). If you feel like talking/brainstorming about Artunis (or anything else), let me know and I'll make sure to be on the chat.

Took a second look at your map, as well as read over the Nicu and Aerlin. I'm not sure if you're finished the map or not but I like it the way it is quite a bit - the minimal amount of detail fits well I think with the overall nature of the setting. Reading your short glossary just after it again, I am reminded of why I liked this setting so much; your description of Mazes in particular puts that slightly-unnerved feeling in my head that I enjoy seeing (I've always been a bit bugged by turbulent or dark water and the idea that you can be in an area of water where you can occasionally see vague shapes of debris floating by in the distance reminds me of it).

I am also quite fond of the Nicu; I like the eerie feeling you've given to the Nua side of the race and the more well-known half feels like an integral part of the setting. My least favorite of the races you've listed so far is probably the Aerlin; I'm not sure what it is but I can't ever see myself playing one. That's not to say they don't have their place in the setting - in fact based on what you've written they have have a very interesting relation with the other races and do fill their own niche.

Quote from: OmegaLimit
Took a second look at your map, as well as read over the Nicu and Aerlin. I'm not sure if you're finished the map or not but I like it the way it is quite a bit - the minimal amount of detail fits well I think with the overall nature of the setting. Reading your short glossary just after it again, I am reminded of why I liked this setting so much; your description of Mazes in particular puts that slightly-unnerved feeling in my head that I enjoy seeing (I've always been a bit bugged by turbulent or dark water and the idea that you can be in an area of water where you can occasionally see vague shapes of debris floating by in the distance reminds me of it).

I am also quite fond of the Nicu; I like the eerie feeling you've given to the Nua side of the race and the more well-known half feels like an integral part of the setting. My least favorite of the races you've listed so far is probably the Aerlin; I'm not sure what it is but I can't ever see myself playing one. That's not to say they don't have their place in the setting - in fact based on what you've written they have have a very interesting relation with the other races and do fill their own niche.

Haha thanks it's good to know what sort of feelings my stuff is evoking for people and to see how they react to it. I'm coming down with a cold so I'm sort of out of it but I'll see if I can't put up some new stuff in the next hour or two (probably detail the Gerrag and the Tilei like you asked in chat). See what you think.

A bit delayed here (mostly since I've come down with a pretty nasty cold) but I did manage to get the writeup for the Gerrag finished. Next up I'll be doing the Tilei. I will probably top this off by going back through there and doing physical descriptions of each species. Anyhow, let me know what you think of the Gerrag. How do they come across to you? Are they unique? Would you ever consider playing one? Etc...

Gerrag:

First of all, I love the design from the artwork.

Now, for the line-by-line, as much as I can. [note]BTW, since this, like most of my reviews, will take the form of a ton of questions, I wanted to answer yours: Yes, I definitely feel they are unique - it's impossible to go "Well, they're basically RACE but BLANK" with these guys. While they're not my personal cup of tea for a player race (I don't like playing arrogance too often), I would still consider playing one - and would love to see someone else who does that arrogance better play one. :) All in all, very solid race.[/note]

QuoteThe Gerrag arrival in The Expanse was completely unknown by the Nicu, Maeri, and Kroa yet the event itself quite literally shattered an entire world.

To clarify, it sounds like the Gerrag are aliens that had their entire planet crash-land into the Expanse. If that's the case, then holy hell, how did any of them survive that? Did they know it was coming? What happened to the chunks of their homeworld? (I could see a Gerrag city built upon one of those...). And how far away did this world land where no one else noticed it? How big a planet are we talking here? How long ago did they arrive?

QuoteLike the Aerlin, the Gerrag have largely stayed to their own waters with only small groups setting out on their own. In the case of the Gerrag this is more an issue of distance and isolation than anything else.

This part doesn't seem to jive with the initial impression we get from the Gerrag upon their arrival. If they're a militaristic expansionist nation, why are they staying within their own waters? Is it out of a fear of provoking other cultures too early? Are the small groups scouting parties? Are they building up?

I'm actually going to wait on the answers to these before I go further in my commentary/questions - the answers here will shape how I respond to rest. :)

I have to say I'm also a fan of the Gerrag. I like the inherent diversity and the idea that they're so obsessed with a search for truth. Your description of their dress and architecture reminds me of the recent discovery that Greek/Roman architecture, sculptures, etc. were actually very colorful and flamboyant. I'm also getting a kind of early 1900s America feel from them with the isolationism. I'll also be waiting for your response to Xathan before I can ask a bit more.

Quote from: Black Market Xathan

QuoteThe Gerrag arrival in The Expanse was completely unknown by the Nicu, Maeri, and Kroa yet the event itself quite literally shattered an entire world.

To clarify, it sounds like the Gerrag are aliens that had their entire planet crash-land into the Expanse. If that's the case, then holy hell, how did any of them survive that? Did they know it was coming? What happened to the chunks of their homeworld? (I could see a Gerrag city built upon one of those...). And how far away did this world land where no one else noticed it? How big a planet are we talking here? How long ago did they arrive?

Yes their homeworld was a drifter world in one of the outer currents. When it swung past The Expanse it got ejected from the current, stopping when it decided to ram another world. The collision resulted in tremendous earthquakes, flooding, and within very short order the world itself cracking apart. Alot of people died as they had no idea what was about to happen. They perhaps saw the approaching world in the last minutes but they would have had little time to do anything but flee to safety. The shattered remains still exist today and yes they have a city within one of the unflooded portions of one of the pieces. Regarding distances Outssi is on the fringes of The Expanse, it's very easy to not get noticed out there due to how far away from everyone else it is no matter how large you are. Their arrival was while the Kroa were still alive so we're talking Pre-Veiran Plague. They've been around for over a thousand of our years.

Quote from: Black Market Xathan

QuoteLike the Aerlin, the Gerrag have largely stayed to their own waters with only small groups setting out on their own. In the case of the Gerrag this is more an issue of distance and isolation than anything else.

This part doesn't seem to jive with the initial impression we get from the Gerrag upon their arrival. If they're a militaristic expansionist nation, why are they staying within their own waters? Is it out of a fear of provoking other cultures too early? Are the small groups scouting parties? Are they building up?

I'm actually going to wait on the answers to these before I go further in my commentary/questions - the answers here will shape how I respond to rest. :)

The Gerrag aren't militaristic. Their expansion is driven by economic and scientific exploration. In fact the Pearl Way is far more militaristic than Outssi. Modern Gerrag military is used largely to protect their borders, keep the peace, and protect prospecting or research groups with enough coin to hire guards. Gerrag waters also references something that is slowly yet steadily expanding. They've basically hit the limit on how much territory they can realistically claim. Their population isn't large enough to continue their initial explosive expansion. The map doesn't show it well but The Expanse is something like 25,000 miles from end to end. Outssi itself is larger than Russia length and width wise.

Quote from: OmegaLimit
I have to say I'm also a fan of the Gerrag. I like the inherent diversity and the idea that they're so obsessed with a search for truth. Your description of their dress and architecture reminds me of the recent discovery that Greek/Roman architecture, sculptures, etc. were actually very colorful and flamboyant. I'm also getting a kind of early 1900s America feel from them with the isolationism. I'll also be waiting for your response to Xathan before I can ask a bit more.

Glad to hear that you like them. Their isolation isn't really a cultural isolationism, it's literally driven by distance. They are over six thousand miles away from the nearest nation that is open to trading with them. The Pearl Way itself is over ten thousand miles away. Their nearest neighbors (the free Tilei) want nothing to do with them. They do a bit of trading with the independant worlds of Zendakol and the other surrounding regions and Gerrag convoys do make it all the way out to Merdi and The Hub from time to time but the distance has resulted in a very distinct culture separate from that of the other resident members of The Expanse. It would probably be like China compared to Europe during the middle ages. A strange faraway land.

Mmm. I must've misunderstood the description. The distance isolation is a whole other kind of awesome. Now that I think about it, it puts a lot of potential in to re-imagine that kind of feel of the strange, faraway land in a totally awesome infinite ocean. I am excited to see more.

Finally started working on the rules section, added some basic ideas on where I want to go with this as well as how I view certain situations playing out.

http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,67936.msg212438.html#msg212438

Added some more Nicu insults as well as started a section for players giving basic information that they would most likely know as a member of a particular area or species. Should hopefully give players a rough idea of what information their character would probably know regarding themselves and their culture.

You are doing an amazing job of avoiding the pitfalls of other settings and setting/system mixes...mine included.  You have a very clear vision; and the work so far on the crunch, while barebones, is clear as heck.

I also think that the macro view of basic informartion that different racial groups would know is a great way to go.  I Alos like the fact (not overlooked, btw) that you are doing this also culturally, not merely racially.

Quote from: LordVreeg
You are doing an amazing job of avoiding the pitfalls of other settings and setting/system mixes...mine included.  You have a very clear vision; and the work so far on the crunch, while barebones, is clear as heck.

I also think that the macro view of basic informartion that different racial groups would know is a great way to go.  I Alos like the fact (not overlooked, btw) that you are doing this also culturally, not merely racially.

Thanks Vreeg. I've been working hard to focus on developing people as cultures instead of species/races. I've come to realize that species is going to have some cultural influence but that in such a mixed setting a big part of culture is going to be based on location and common nationality. A Yrvaian Maeri from the Pearl Way is going to be closer culturally to their close allies, the Lynaran Nicu, than an Ikaedian Maeri.

At request: Gerrag Schooling and The Shrine of the Perfect Mind

QuoteThe foundation of formal Gerrag schools was born from the Wisaria Orausu, The Shrine of the Perfect Mind. They were initially simple collectives, shrines for the collection and protection of knowledge.

I like the terminology here - the word shrine has some major religious connotations, and the Gerrag seems to have an emphasis on knowledge that borders on the religious, which is fun and interesting. How deep does that emphasis go? How much do Gerrag "worship" knowledge?

QuoteIt was here that Gerrag Wisards maintained their tomes and here that they taught their pupils. Potential Wisards were brought up in the knowledge and traditions of the Wisaria within the walls of these temples of learning.

"Tome" is a broad word - is it just magical books, or any large important books? Or some other element I'm missing?

QuoteThe shrines were open to the public who were free to seek knowledge from the stored books and learned sages of the temple. The great knowledge of the shrines drew interest from numerous groups and before long all manner of people were flocking to them in search of understanding. They became mixture of library and school for the local populace and the number of members within the Wisaria Orausu greatly increased.

This actually confuses me a bit. I get the idea behind the shrines, but the sense I got was that they were for the "protection of knowledge" - which seems to run contrary to allowing public access to them. Were the public only allowed to see some bits? Were they only able to observe while under guard? Were they not able to directly see the books, but see them through some other medium to not risk them?

QuoteModern Wisard Shrines maintain this tradition of enriching the populace around them though they have since drifted towards a more formal and structured system. Their great libraries still exist though the rarest of their knowledge is often closely guarded out of fear of thievery or vandalism.

What's the line between rare knowledge and open knowledge? If they're open to enriching the public, why don't they just copy down the rare knowledge so they can disperse it more? What keeps rare knowledge rare?

QuoteAny person may use them though care is to be taken as the destruction of a repository of knowledge is a deep sin within the Wisaria and met with swift punishment.

How is this monitored? What is the punishment?

QuoteIn addition to these libraries the Wisards maintain lecture halls, great open rooms where they teach those interested in the particular Wisards knowledge. In exchange for knowledge Wisards traditionally demand compensation from ones own capabilities. A farmer may offer food to the temple while a carpenter agrees to repair something for them in the future. Even the unskilled may request teaching in exchange for general labor (in fact this is one of the key things that led to the Tilei enslavement).

I love this bit, but how did it lead to Tilei enslavement? Because they built up too big a debt?

QuoteWisard teachings are often steeped in their lore and beliefs but nevertheless immensely valuable. All manner of things may be learned from basic maths to complex medicine, each discipline being the focus of a Wisard who has devoted their life to its study and understanding.

How much does this lore and beliefs color their teachings? how much of it impacts what they discover? Is the scientific method (or some approximation of it) known and used? What are these beliefs?

QuoteComplete understanding however is only found through apprenticeship. Those wishing to become Wisards must apprentice under a master of their trade from whom they learn in exchange for running errands, maintaining their masters house, preparing meals, and any other mundane tasks required. Before one may become a full fledged Wisard they are then sent out, tasked with retrieving some new knowledge and returning it to their shrine. The apprentice of a master chef might seek out a new recipe while the apprentice of a Musician may return with a previously unknown song. Such searches can take many years and Wisards on these journeys of knowledge can be found all throughout The Expanse.

Sounds like a great hook for a character - a prospective Wisard seeking knowledge. So are you only truly considered to have mastered an art if you are a Wisard of it? Is Wisard a title like Doctor or PhD, where you can be a Wisard Cook, a Wisard Carpenter, and Wisard Underwater Basket Weaver?* Or does Wisard refer to something specific? Does becoming a Wisard mean you have to accept the previously mentioned beliefs, or are there some who do not - or are those who do not accept the beliefs but are Wisards considered heretics? Also, what does Wisard actually mean, since I figure spelling it differently than Wizard was a deliberate choice?

*This being ME, I suppose all basket weavers are underwater.

Quote from: Xathan Back Again
At request: Gerrag Schooling and The Shrine of the Perfect Mind

QuoteThe foundation of formal Gerrag schools was born from the Wisaria Orausu, The Shrine of the Perfect Mind. They were initially simple collectives, shrines for the collection and protection of knowledge.

I like the terminology here - the word shrine has some major religious connotations, and the Gerrag seems to have an emphasis on knowledge that borders on the religious, which is fun and interesting. How deep does that emphasis go? How much do Gerrag "worship" knowledge?

QuoteIt was here that Gerrag Wisards maintained their tomes and here that they taught their pupils. Potential Wisards were brought up in the knowledge and traditions of the Wisaria within the walls of these temples of learning.

"Tome" is a broad word - is it just magical books, or any large important books? Or some other element I'm missing?

QuoteThe shrines were open to the public who were free to seek knowledge from the stored books and learned sages of the temple. The great knowledge of the shrines drew interest from numerous groups and before long all manner of people were flocking to them in search of understanding. They became mixture of library and school for the local populace and the number of members within the Wisaria Orausu greatly increased.

This actually confuses me a bit. I get the idea behind the shrines, but the sense I got was that they were for the "protection of knowledge" - which seems to run contrary to allowing public access to them. Were the public only allowed to see some bits? Were they only able to observe while under guard? Were they not able to directly see the books, but see them through some other medium to not risk them?

QuoteModern Wisard Shrines maintain this tradition of enriching the populace around them though they have since drifted towards a more formal and structured system. Their great libraries still exist though the rarest of their knowledge is often closely guarded out of fear of thievery or vandalism.

What's the line between rare knowledge and open knowledge? If they're open to enriching the public, why don't they just copy down the rare knowledge so they can disperse it more? What keeps rare knowledge rare?

QuoteAny person may use them though care is to be taken as the destruction of a repository of knowledge is a deep sin within the Wisaria and met with swift punishment.

How is this monitored? What is the punishment?

QuoteIn addition to these libraries the Wisards maintain lecture halls, great open rooms where they teach those interested in the particular Wisards knowledge. In exchange for knowledge Wisards traditionally demand compensation from ones own capabilities. A farmer may offer food to the temple while a carpenter agrees to repair something for them in the future. Even the unskilled may request teaching in exchange for general labor (in fact this is one of the key things that led to the Tilei enslavement).

I love this bit, but how did it lead to Tilei enslavement? Because they built up too big a debt?

QuoteWisard teachings are often steeped in their lore and beliefs but nevertheless immensely valuable. All manner of things may be learned from basic maths to complex medicine, each discipline being the focus of a Wisard who has devoted their life to its study and understanding.

How much does this lore and beliefs color their teachings? how much of it impacts what they discover? Is the scientific method (or some approximation of it) known and used? What are these beliefs?

QuoteComplete understanding however is only found through apprenticeship. Those wishing to become Wisards must apprentice under a master of their trade from whom they learn in exchange for running errands, maintaining their masters house, preparing meals, and any other mundane tasks required. Before one may become a full fledged Wisard they are then sent out, tasked with retrieving some new knowledge and returning it to their shrine. The apprentice of a master chef might seek out a new recipe while the apprentice of a Musician may return with a previously unknown song. Such searches can take many years and Wisards on these journeys of knowledge can be found all throughout The Expanse.

Sounds like a great hook for a character - a prospective Wisard seeking knowledge. So are you only truly considered to have mastered an art if you are a Wisard of it? Is Wisard a title like Doctor or PhD, where you can be a Wisard Cook, a Wisard Carpenter, and Wisard Underwater Basket Weaver?* Or does Wisard refer to something specific? Does becoming a Wisard mean you have to accept the previously mentioned beliefs, or are there some who do not - or are those who do not accept the beliefs but are Wisards considered heretics? Also, what does Wisard actually mean, since I figure spelling it differently than Wizard was a deliberate choice?

*This being ME, I suppose all basket weavers are underwater.

Well we already discussed this online but here's basically my answers for the above so that others can see them.

1) The Gerrag don't worship knowledge, the Wisaria do. Their worship of it is the very core of what they are so it is everywhere for them.

2) By tome I basically mean anything written, just a literary choice.

3) The Wisaria looks to protect and collect knowledge, it also sees this knowledge as worthless unless used for the greater good so they spread it to the everyman. However having said that they do keep careful watch over things like their books. You can visit their archives and research things but you are going to be closely monitored. Newer members of the shrine often find themselves roped into helping and watching people who come to the libraries.

4) I mistyped I think by knowledge I was thinking more books. They do copy their books but the rare originals are very carefully protected and you aren't going to get your hands on one without being a long time member of the Wisaria and having an excellent reason.

5) Well as I said up above the libraries are carefully watched. Destroying knowledge is one of the gravest offenses you can commit. Punishments usually involve things like burning the offenders hands or beating them with a cane and so forth. Very serious crimes (like someone who sets a library on fire or hosts a mass book burning) result in the sinful being stuck inside something much like the Sicilian bull and roasted to death. You don't mess around with the Wisaria.

6) The Tilei were in the eyes of the Gerrag savages, dumb cousins that needed learning. So they started taking them in (often through coercion) and taught them as Gerrag. Wisaria believes that knowledge is a valuable gift (which is why they require services or goods in return for their teaching) and this was used as an excuse to pretty much enslave the Tilei. It started as simply repaying their debts but as time went on these Gerrag did everything they could to make as many Tilei as they could permanently indebted to them. We're talking christian crusader/muslim extremist level bull they were pulling on them in the name of their beliefs while having little interest in following the Wisaria (being mostly interested in slaves/getting rich). Not all the Gerrag took part or agreed with it, and not all of the Tilei were enslaved but it drove a deep wedge between the two sides (as well as a number of other wedges between the various Gerrag groups themselves).

7) Alot. I haven't yet worked out the details of their beliefs but suffice it to say that the Gerrag would be far and away the most advanced group in The Expanse if not for the traditions of Wisaria. As it stands they're on about level ground with The Pearl Way. The Pearl Way is more skilled in very concrete technologies (especially those useful for trade and warfare) like engineering and chemistry while Outssi is superior when it comes to things like anatomy/medicine, philosophy, math, etc. Overall they're pretty close technologically to each other. The scientific method is used but it's been warped a bit by their beliefs (kind of WH40k tech priest style though far less extreme).

8) It is not a title it is merely a member of the Wisaria. They do have titles ranging from the newest apprentices all the way up to the grand masters in charge of the shrines. I will take some time to detail these soon. And yes being a member requires following their beliefs though having said that their beliefs are pretty simple and straight forward and a number of religions do not conflict in any way with them. The Wisaria is fully accepting of members who also look to other religions for spiritual growth provided they do not neglect their own duties to knowledge. As for the meaning it comes from Wisaria Orausu which means Shrine[Orausu] (of the) Perfect Mind[Wisaria]. They are followers of the perfect mind.

As an aside Wisard isn't pronounced like it looks. I talked this over with Xathan and we hammered out a better spelling (which I will be editing in)... Weisardth (Weigh-zawth[soft th]) and Weisaria Orausu (Weigh-zaia Oh-raw-soo).

Ok well I've finally decided to commit to running a game in this (something I've talked about alot but not actually sat down and said I will do this). This first game is going to be fluff focused so I think to start we'll being the classic no-stats theater style. If it's successful we may move to a simple rules system to add a little crunch for future games (I was thinking of using the Asura system).

Anyhow I think the critical thing is to start laying out information important for characters to know. I will do a bit more fleshing out of the races and cultures as well as some more development on major religions and factions. This should give a solid background to work from so that all involved can get a solid grasp on the feel of the setting. In addition I'm going to start detailing technology.

I think the list of things that are critical will be something like:
- Racial and cultural overview
- Major religions
- Major factions
- Linguistic concepts (insults, slang, various languages)
- Recent Expanse history
- Common technology

Once we get closer to the game I'll do some further detail of the area the game will be taking place in (local cultures, places, languages, minor religions and factions, local history, persons of note in the area, etc) so that the players will know what just about anyone in the area would probably know. At that point we can see about finalizing plans for this.

Quote from: Nomadic(I was thinking of using the Asura system)

I would be happy to help with this, if I can. :)

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: Nomadic(I was thinking of using the Asura system)

I would be happy to help with this, if I can. :)

I could certainly use the help once it gets to that point. I think it will be best to do the first game as rules free so that I and everyone else can get a feel for the kind of roleplay that will develop out of this. The next step will be to introduce a simple rules system that is in line with the kind of setting this is (since my rules system isn't done yet). Since Asura also focuses on the importance of rule of cool it has a rules system that will fit ok for that. At that point we can utilize it to see how crunch will start to affect things (primarily my running of the game but also how using rules will slow down or change things).

Just added a new fleshed out section on the Weisaria Orausu (under religion) for any who want to read it. My next target will be doing the Maeri Wandering Way ancestor worship as I already have alot of information on that up.

Quote from: Nomadic
Just added a new fleshed out section on the Weisaria Orausu (under religion) for any who want to read it. My next target will be doing the Maeri Wandering Way ancestor worship as I already have alot of information on that up.

will try to get a look this weekend, after the sale from hell.

Quote from: LordVreeg

Quote from: Nomadic
Just added a new fleshed out section on the Weisaria Orausu (under religion) for any who want to read it. My next target will be doing the Maeri Wandering Way ancestor worship as I already have alot of information on that up.

will try to get a look this weekend, after the sale from hell.

Awesome would love to hear from you. In the meantime I shall start compiling my notes for the Wandering Way.

One thing I have trouble with in reading Mare Eternus (as a relative newcomer) is that I fairly often find myself struggling to find where the new information is - would you be able to include the new information in a spoiler in the post where you announce that you've updated for ease of review? :)

Quote from: Xathan Back Again
One thing I have trouble with in reading Mare Eternus (as a relative newcomer) is that I fairly often find myself struggling to find where the new information is - would you be able to include the new information in a spoiler in the post where you announce that you've updated for ease of review? :)

I can do that.

Awesome - I'll look forward to seeing what else you come up with, because the more I see the more I fall in love with this setting. :D

Well since I've made some promises to do a game at some point soon I figured I might as well take the knowledge of the setting I have so far and utilize it to craft an area for a game session. Since this isn't anything I'm sure on and I may be changing and editing it alot I'm going to keep it in the discussion thread, also feedback is appreciated if you have it. This should be a good chance for me to craft the feel of the game so we'll see how it goes.

[ic=Burke]
"Burke isn't exactly mainstream society, in fact if anything it's about as far from mainstream society as you can get without going to one of the thousands of lawless bolt holes to be found out here in this nasty patch of sea called Zendakol. We aren't upper crust by any stretch of the imagination, but we have rules and standards. We're what you might call a safe haven. We see to the mines and Mr Burke in turn sees to our pay and protection. He may be a miser in most regards, but at least when it comes to safety, pirates and bandits know to steer well clear of our little world. Out here that counts for alot."

--------------------

Burke is a name, a name with meaning. It is the name of a miner's village, a successful boom town in an area where such things can't normally survive. It is the name of the world that town can be found in. To most though the name Burke means a man, one particular man in general. A wealthy Tilei businessman with some shady connections and a vice-like grip on his profit margin, Mr Burke has made it big in an area where others have failed. Where other merchants hired guards to drive off thieves and pirates, Mr Burke hired himself a private army and took the fight to the thieves and pirates. Where the constant attrition of being preyed on drove others off, Mr Burke got hit once and responded by going to war with every Pirate faction within a day's journey of his operation. His brutal viciousness and unwavering tenacity has cemented for him a form of respect within the local criminal community. They leave Burke alone, and in return he doesn't drop a fleet of subs on their doorsteps. "Mad Dog" Burke has become a fixture of the local area, and a very wealthy one.

His operation is a lucrative one, stripping tons of valuable ores and processing them before shipping them out in armed convoys to be sold in Hub Markets. Burke is a world like few others, thick with valuable ore veins wherein can be found all manner of minerals from lowly but sturdy iron to rare and valuable Zendakite Gold. To remove this ore Burke employs an army of workers, drawn from poor families, orphanages, and anywhere else he can find people down on their luck and willing to do back breaking labor in exchange for little more than room, board, and very modest pay. They mine ore, break it down, purify and smelt it, and ship it off for sale in constant shifts. The town of Burke doesn't sleep.

Fort Burke
The Burke Estate sits atop a hill overlooking the rest of the town. It is nothing more than a walled in mansion, the only such one to be found in the town. However the solidly built walls, multiple towers, and patrolling guardsmen give it more the appearance of a manned fortress, from which it gets its local nickname.

The Foundry

Barter Row

The Warrens

Burke Mines

[/ic]

Truly up my alley, seeming to be an interconnected area full of disparate interwoven parts...

After reading through most of it, I quite like Mare Eternus so far. There is enough diversity of species and tech levels to open up many opportunities for adventure. Your description of Moyrasmere is neat as well - I always like to read about how the common people get by in any setting.

However, I have a few lingering concerns about the general physics of your universe. I understand that this is a fantastical one, but there should be at least a few things that players can understand coming into their first session here without heavy reading.

-Is there a surface? You mention zeppelins, but without flying in the air, I would think they'd just be larger submarines.

-I think a map or diagram of at least one of the Worlds would help to imagine what they are like. You mention that they are small, yet describe many different types of terrain within them. Maybe they are stacked, or contain many different layers, like an onion.

-Lastly, is the ocean safe to drink, or do people have to rely on freshwater lakes/streams within the Worlds to find non-salty water?

Quote from: Skyfire
After reading through most of it, I quite like Mare Eternus so far. There is enough diversity of species and tech levels to open up many opportunities for adventure. Your description of Moyrasmere is neat as well - I always like to read about how the common people get by in any setting.

However, I have a few lingering concerns about the general physics of your universe. I understand that this is a fantastical one, but there should be at least a few things that players can understand coming into their first session here without heavy reading.

-Is there a surface? You mention zeppelins, but without flying in the air, I would think they'd just be larger submarines.

-I think a map or diagram of at least one of the Worlds would help to imagine what they are like. You mention that they are small, yet describe many different types of terrain within them. Maybe they are stacked, or contain many different layers, like an onion.

-Lastly, is the ocean safe to drink, or do people have to rely on freshwater lakes/streams within the Worlds to find non-salty water?

Heh glad you liked it. To answer your questions there is no surface to the greater ocean. However the worlds are semi-hollow (crisscrossed with caves and caverns) and generally air filled. The interiors of these worlds are where air breathers live (and where you see stuff like zeppelins and normal cities and such). They also aren't completely closed. So you'll have sections in a world where there's a hole in the "wall" and water comes through and you end up with a sort of moon pool effect. So you'll get seas and lakes and such inside of worlds where the ocean water and the internal air find stability.

Regarding world size they're small in comparison to the Earth. Some of them would be quite massive to a person (100-300 miles across). These largest worlds are big enough to host multiple biomes and even weather systems inside them. I have tried to map one before but it's very difficult, they are 3-dimensional in layout with as you said many different layers.

The ocean being fresh or salt isn't something I've really delved into too much. I suspect that it could go either way. I might rule that it's salty just so that it would be easier to have a salt trade. Finding fresh water would either involve finding internal rivers and river fed lakes or in making it yourself (just boil and condense the ocean water).

Thanks for the feedback. :)

The water goes both ways.   Thank gods.

Do you have any ideas on measuring larger intervals of time in Mare Eternus? I know you have the cogs, providing second/day measurements.

I guess without a star there's be a much different definition of a 'year'. Maybe there is some large clockwork chronometer/calendar that the civilizations base their time off of, or possibly the time since an important event in the past (like the arrival of their home in the Expanse, for the Gerrag).

Quote from: Skyfire
Do you have any ideas on measuring larger intervals of time in Mare Eternus? I know you have the cogs, providing second/day measurements.

I guess without a star there's be a much different definition of a 'year'. Maybe there is some large clockwork chronometer/calendar that the civilizations base their time off of, or possibly the time since an important event in the past (like the arrival of their home in the Expanse, for the Gerrag).

Yea something I realized was that without a conventional solar system there wouldn't be a conventional day, month, or year. I've been considering the impact of this (it's quite profound to be honest). I agree with you though that one thing that is needed is a standardized timekeeping system. I was thinking of going a bit metric on it with ticks of clockwork being the base of the system (and akin to a second in our world) and building off of that in multiples of 10. I don't want to confuse people though so I'd want to keep it as simple as possible I'm sure. I like your idea of having the current age pull its calendar from an ancient event. I think the event that would make the most sense would be the foundation of the Pearl Way Alliance.