Look at that dragon! He has HANDS, as if he were once a man! Witness this parch, dry world or ruins! Gaze upon that dying sun, and DESPAIR!
Link mcLinkerson:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090814
(//../../e107_files/public/1250278154_4_FT0_dark_sun_cg_b1y.jpg)
It's certainly one of the most.......evocative covers I've seen D&D do, and 4e especially.
Man I wish I had time for gaming.
Dark Sun is one of the most interesting published worlds out there. If you haven't had the pleasure yet, go familiarize yourself with it.
it's about damn time that they updated this setting. now i can only hope that they will update Spelljammer.
*Salivates*
Makes me want to pick up the other 4E books just for this.
That makes me wonder what the first most awesome D&D news ever is/was. :P
Quote from: sparkletwistThat makes me wonder what the first most awesome D&D news ever is/was. :P
That Gary Gygax Di-*killed by angry fanboys*
(just kidding of course)
That's pretty sweet. And it's nice that it's going to be a world to take advantage of the psionic goodness in PHB3. I might actually use Dark Sun, unlike FR and Eberron.
Like many, I was one those who played Athas, back in 2e days. The idea of the setting is really cool. If it were something you read on the back cover of a book describing what it inside - you might think, wow, this sounds awesome.
But then I played Dark Sun, and I really quite hated the whole thing. One player, our old DM, pushed it to death, but we never played more than 3 sessions of it. I at the time, was the most not into it. Our group fractionalized into two camps. The DM led his with a single follower. I led the rest. Like I said, after 3 sessions. We never played again.
To see it back again - I guess I didn't drive the stake far enough into its heart. Somehow, it has come back. Oh well, I ain't gonna touch it - not to mention its for 4e, even less reason to look at it.
But that's just me.
GP
Let's just hope they don't drop the ball with this like they did with Forgotten Realms...
Excellent news, great artwork, and from the interview they linked to it sounds like it should be a great product... although, a great 4e product... which means, I shan't be playing it. Shame. I always liked the idea of Dark Sun, despite never having played it.
Now what I want to know is this: WHERE IS MY DAMN CHARACTER VISUALIZER?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
This is great news, but I don't know if I trust WotC to do it well after the cluster**** that was 4e FR and the "minor tweaks" to 4e Eberron (that were actually significant changes). I'd love to play Dark Sun again, but not any version from them, and it's certainly not enough to get me to use 4e.
Quote from: Gamer PrintshopLike many, I was one those who played Athas, back in 2e days. The idea of the setting is really cool. If it were something you read on the back cover of a book describing what it inside - you might think, wow, this sounds awesome.
But then I played Dark Sun, and I really quite hated the whole thing.
Might I ask what about it you hated?
I wasn't a great lover of psionics at the time, and this was when our group did a big time plunge into psionics. With power gamers rules were bending right away. So the reality was the group dynamic in tryin to use the system more. Everything thing was psionic all the monsters, from the simplist beast upward. The constructs of the Will and the Way, seemed to complicate 2e psionics even more for me.
The cannibal, cliff dwelling halflings turned that race into monsters. If you weren't playing a psionicist or spell caster, everyone was a mul fighter.
In some ways I see the Barsoom of the pulp fiction, in some ways science fiction.
It was interesting, but I guess so exotic it was outside my comfort zone, and that's why not my taste. I can say that I appreciate the creativity in the setting, but I don't want to play in it.
I am also not a 4e guy and I've looked at the system - not complicated enough for me!
GP
Quote from: Other peoplesomething about 4e ungoodness
Athas.org?[/url], in particular http://athas.org/products/ds3#description
Being one of the official fan-sites allowed to develop conversions for dead settings or however that deal went back in the day, it's both non-wizards and non-4e :P
I can't speak for the quality though, but it looks fairly decent browsing through the last release. (I personally stear clear of fan-sites, but I understand others here have a different opinion ^_^).
Not spending a lot of time browsing DnD lately, what were the "minor tweaks" to Eberron?
Quote from: athas.orgAthas.org?[/url], in particular http://athas.org/products/ds3#description
Being one of the official fan-sites allowed to develop conversions for dead settings or however that deal went back in the day, it's both non-wizards and non-4e :P
I can't speak for the quality though, but it looks fairly decent browsing through the last release. (I personally stear clear of fan-sites, but I understand others here have a different opinion ^_^).
Not spending a lot of time browsing DnD lately, what were the "minor tweaks" to Eberron?[/quote]
Things like, oh, letting any race have any dragonmark and undermining the entire basis of the Dragonmarked Houses and thus the basis of almost the entire setting--yeah, they say it's only for the PCs "because the PCs are special!" but the dragonmarked feats are so good that you're practically guaranteed to have an entire of party with mismatched dragonmarks and if you're playing in Eberron at all it's stupid not to take them. Yet they still have Aberrant dragonmarks, when prior fluff held that a dragonmark on the wrong race (from a mixed-race pairing, for instance) ended up as an aberrant mark....
Things like randomly making up "feyspires" or some such that are entire eladrin cities literally plopped down in the middle of nowhere in the Mournland and Xen'drik and all that...when the whole point of those places is that they're too dangerous to live there, and plopped down right smack in the middle of Khorvaire...when their existence requires a few massive retcons. Plus, the eladrin ability to step into the Feywild to teleport (which they still have) makes no sense if they've actually been kicked out of Thelanis as they claim.
Those are the two big ones; there are some less prominent ones, like changing the artificer's schtick because ritual casting makes its older one (which was fairly strongly tied into the setting's assumptions with the artificer vs. magewright thing) obsolete, or changing the mechanics of lycanthropy so huge chunks of the Silver Flame fluff make no sense any more.
Dunno, sounds like relatively minor tweaks to me. Some necessary, some just to fix things maybe some people complained about.
The change to lycanthropy was a change to 4e. It's not the same as a tweak to Eberron.
But I can't see how any of these things mess up the setting. That idea presupposes that there is some kind of Platonic ideal of Eberronness out there that we should strive for, and if so, it was achieved in the first printing, so any retcon deviates from it.
Now if the problem is that you had an existing campaign going, but you wanted to switch that campaign from 3.5 to 4e, and could accept those changes, but not setting changes, I suppose that's a different issue.
I refuse to buy any more D&D products. Wake me up for 4.5
Quote from: PhoenixDunno, sounds like relatively minor tweaks to me. Some necessary, some just to fix things maybe some people complained about.
The change to lycanthropy was a change to 4e. It's not the same as a tweak to Eberron.[/quote]But I can't see how any of these things mess up the setting. That idea presupposes that there is some kind of Platonic ideal of Eberronness out there that we should strive for, and if so, it was achieved in the first printing, so any retcon deviates from it.
Now if the problem is that you had an existing campaign going, but you wanted to switch that campaign from 3.5 to 4e, and could accept those changes, but not setting changes, I suppose that's a different issue.[/quote]
I'm not running an Eberron campaign at the moment, no. And, yes, I'd say that any retcon deviating from the 3e version by this degree is getting too far from the ideal. If the minor tweaks were actually minor, that would be one thing--you know, changing the name of one of the Sovereign Host, moving Darguun slightly southwest of where it is now, things like that. The Dragonmarked houses, the ideology of the Silver Flame, manifest zones, the nature of magic item creation...all of those are central to the theme of 3e Eberron, and all of those are changed in the 4e version; the exact name of one god or the location of one nation, not so much.
Quote from: Pair o' Dice Lost<various amusing silliness>
QuoteThe change to lycanthropy was a change to 4e. It's not the same as a tweak to Eberron.
Fair enough.
QuoteI'm not running an Eberron campaign at the moment, no. And, yes, I'd say that any retcon deviating from the 3e version by this degree is getting too far from the ideal. If the minor tweaks were actually minor, that would be one thing--you know, changing the name of one of the Sovereign Host, moving Darguun slightly southwest of where it is now, things like that. The Dragonmarked houses, the ideology of the Silver Flame, manifest zones, the nature of magic item creation...all of those are central to the theme of 3e Eberron, and all of those are changed in the 4e version; the exact name of one god or the location of one nation, not so much.
But if the 3e version was ideal for you, you've no reason to complain. It means you don't need to buy the book at all and you can save your $35 (or whatever it costs). You've already got your ideal fluff.
You can't mean you'd wanted them to make a new book just to change a few feats to match 4e rules? I'd be a lot more pissed if I bought a new book and only one chapter had changed.
But then again, I don't see anything you've mentioned so far as a big change to the setting. To be honest, even if they had entirely removed the dragonmarked stuff I don't know that I'd call it major (although perhaps not minor). It doesn't change the feel much for me.
If they said no more warforged, lightning rails, or other technocraziness, that would be pretty major, to me. Though I don't know that I would say it would ruin things, since I don't believe in the idea of a Platonic ideal for a setting.
But then, I didn't love Eberron to begin with--I liked it way more than FR, but I didn't love it. If you were a huge fan, then I can see not wanting something you love messed up. But that brings me back to, if it wasn't broke for you, you've got nothing to complain about.
Quote from: PhoenixI'm sorry, I don't accept your analogy.
Nor do I find argument by analogy particularly convincing in most cases; better for amusement than constructive reasoning.
But then again, I don't see anything you've mentioned so far as a big change to the setting. To be honest, even if they had entirely removed the dragonmarked stuff I don't know that I'd call it major (although perhaps not minor). It doesn't change the feel much for me.
If they said no more warforged, lightning rails, or other technocraziness, that would be pretty major, to me. Though I don't know that I would say it would ruin things, since I don't believe in the idea of a Platonic ideal for a setting.
But then, I didn't love Eberron to begin with--I liked it way more than FR, but I didn't love it. If you were a huge fan, then I can see not wanting something you love messed up. But that brings me back to, if it wasn't broke for you, you've got nothing to complain about.[/quote]
I guess this is where our tastes diverge. For you, removing warforged is a big change and changing dragonmarks is minor; for me, warforged (and shifters and deathless and...) being able to get the wrong dragonmarks is just as big a change as removing warforged.
As to not having anything to complain about...well, kind of. I know you don't like analogies, but humor me for a moment--did you like the original Star Wars movies? Assuming that's a yes (who doesn't?), did you like the prequel movies? Some people liked them just fine; hardcore Star Wars fans (such as myself) disliked them for their contradiction of previously-established canon and stilted plots. Yes, I can watch only episodes IV-VI and act as though the prequels never happened (which I don't, but just for the sake of argument), but anyone introduced to the "new" Star Wars who hears I'm a Star Wars fan is going to start talking about Gungans and midichlorians and General Grievous and all that. Changing many of the iconic aspects of Eberron has a similar effect--someone starting on 4e Eberron is going to think of the setting in a different way from someone who played 3e Eberron and switched to 4e Eberron, and both are going to think of the setting in a different way from someone who only played 3e Eberron.
It might just be that the only aspect of the 4e transition I really hate is the discarding of all of the older edition canon, and as FR is nuked, and Planescape is relegated to a sidebar in MotP, and Greyhawk is summarily ignored, I simply find the Eberron changes slightly more drastic than I would if they were alone because it's part of a general "shoehorn settings into the 4e mold" trend, and seeing new players thinking of 4e as the Way D&D Is while not knowing anything about the shared lore and quirks that make me like D&D just rubs me the wrong way. Who knows; I guess when I get interested in a hobby I just take it too seriously. I'll stop derailing a DS discussion with Eberron and let others contribute.