So instead of bogging down the Arga setting thread, I just thought that I would post an individual one for the development of an Arga d20 system (3E/3.5E). This is what I, with contributions from CC, have so far:
- There are only THREE core classes and no prestige classes. The three core classes are as follow.
1. The Warrior - Basic d20 Fighter class.
2. The Thief - Basic d20 Rogue class.
3. The Scholar - This where the thinking (read you guys) comes in. So this is where I'm at thus far. In Arga, there are no spellcasting classes. Spells are dealt with as incantations - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm. So all three of classes are more than capable of performing incantations, but the Scholar class is geared specifically towards them. I was thinking the d20 Wizard class as a skill, feat, and HD base. I would create new feats - as the old metamagic feats would be obsolete without spells - that would focus on improving and manipulating the incantations. A familiar would still be viable, but maybe at a later level.
To balance out the loss of spells, I'm not quite sure to do. Technology could be a viable solution, but I'm not so sure how to implement. Alchemy would be much more appropriate in my opinion.
Besides this, most of the other changes to the d20 system would be cosmetic and thematic, the only real rule tweaks are in the classes and the use of incantations. (So far, I could very well feel like tweaking something else, but for now this is all I have.)
I not only would love some feedback, but kinda need it to ;)
[EDIT] I also plan on using the variant rules for Weapon Groups ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm ), Character Flaws ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm ), and Character Traits ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm ), will prob add and remove some in due time.
Scattered Thoughts...
Scholar? Perhaps Alchemy, make them like an Artificer from Eberron or a Golem Creator-- something of that sort. Perhaps a grafter?
Perhaps give them extra Knowledges that they can use to better damage enemies (know where the weak points are a la a ranger's Favored Enemies)
Make them mysterious and scary- like a Warlock. The Scholars know things that others can only fathom. They know the secrets of the universe and the secrets of history. They can read all the ancient languages and decipher the writings, they can manipulate ancient technology, they can solve strange puzzles and riddles. They are walking dictionaries and encyclopediaes, like a savant they can calculate complicated mathematical problems...
I do not think a familiar necessarily is suitable for a class called a "Scholar"
See my constructive criticism in the Arga Redux thread, but I can tell you that there have been made a couple of sage-like classes in the story of DnD (surprise; what haven't they made?):
The Loremaster from DMG: I reckon you have checked that one out yourself.
The Archivist from Heroes of Horror: A divine spellcaster employing a spellbook, the main feature of this guy is his "Dark Knowledge" which allows him to use knowledge skills to find enemy weaknesses (Like LD suggested)
The Savant from Dragon Compendium: A non-spellcaster really, but his studies allow him to manipulate both divine and arcane spells up to level 4. His main feature is that he an do well in most situations; medium at combat, good skill selection, and weak sneak attacks and trapfinding even. He also possesses the Skill Assistance ability which allows him to help an ally with any skill check. He also has a sort of bardic lore ability that allows him to use nearly every knowledge skill.
Field Antiquarian from Dark*Matter: Although a modern class, i thought i might mention it. It's a PrC which gives a person the Ancient Knowledge skill which allows him to spend an action point to get a helpful hint, bonus languages/feats, and academic contacts.
Well, not particularly helpful ideas perhaps, but then you know what others have done :)
I think a sort of Bardic/Academic Lore is a must, as are probably bonus languages. Perhaps some kind of Eidetic Memory? You can also check out some of the talents of the D20 Modern Smart Hero: http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Smart.php
Ok, I'm really liking the d20 Modern classes. They're something very vague and unrelated to the feel of the game, which was what I was looking for.
Here's a thought - use the six d20 Modern classes, but tweak and fluff them up for individual races or starting cities.
For example, if you wanted to play as the Tough Hero, you could be an Iban Pit-fighter, a Duran Gear-Breaker, or a Vorrish Runaway Slave. A Smart Hero could be a Cimmerese Librarian or a Pendan Guild-Artificer. A Charismatic Hero could be a Voyan Wanderer or a Fast Hero could be a Moru Rake or a Pem Poxan Rebel. These are just a few possibilities.
And while all the core classes would be the same no matter what the decorative name is (A Duran Gear-Breaker and the Vorrish Runaway Slave both share the same Tough Hero class) there could be certain Talents or Feats only available to certain players. For example, a Duran Gear-Breaker could have access to either a single Feat or a Talent tree that would allow them to better combat constructs and automatons. The Iban Pit-Fighter could have access to a Dirty Fighting tree. A Red League player (probably either a Fast or Charismatic Hero) could have a tree that deals with terrorism or demagoguery.
Note that not every starting city/nation or race would have access to all six of Hero Classes (that being said, if a player or DM can think of an appropriate archetype that matches a class and an origin - go for it it!).
hmmm...I'm really liking this idea, but before I let my brain totally loose, do you think this could work? Both as metagame rules and in-game flavor?
This could work :) But mind you, Modern is designed for PrCs. And I honestly don't think you'd have terrible issues making one up. But having Prestige Talent Trees might work just as well :) So when you join up with an organization you gain access to new talents. Some of the trees might be keyed to a specific character class, others might be accessible whenever you gain a new talent. I'd be careful limiting the starting players to certain specific archetypes; this puts a limit on creativity. Just make them an option :) Perhaps you trade away some of your starting action points for it.
So this could definitely work. I'd still take a gander at Iron Heroes if you get the chance, but with the proper modifications this might work just as well or better.
here would be an example of the Duran Gear-Breaker:
Duran Gear-Breaker - To you and your family's great honor, you have been anointed as a Gear-Breaker, a Khaza Drum as it is said in the old tongue. After decades of physical and mental training you have been found worthy and prepare to be sent out into Arga to do battle with the metal demons that once murdered your people. You have booked passage on a Merlunan trade-cog and you leave the Holds within the week. While you have little experience with the outside world, you are confident that your training, your Duran equipment, and the blessing of your gods you will succeed and survive.
Starting Stuff - Most importantly, your family's heirloom warhammer Arazh. In addition to that, a warm cloak and traveling clothes, maps, guides, and studies of Arga and its peoples, miscellaneous items - rope, rations, a lamp, a flask of oil, sleeping gear, two vials of rust ichor, prayer beads, a cheap knife, and bag of salt.
Base Class : Tough Hero
Special Talent Tree : Khaza Drum Training
Khaza Drum Neophyte - The hero receives a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage against constructs.
Khaza Drum Journeyman - The hero receives an additional +1 to Attack and Damage against constructs for a total of +2. The hero also receives a +1 to AC against constructs.
Prerequisite: Khaza Drum Neophyte
Khaza Drum Master - The hero receives an additional +1 to Attack and Damage against constructs for a total of +3. The hero also receives an additional +1 to AC against constructs for a total of +2.
Prerequisite: Khaza Drum Journeyman
looks nice enough :)
only be careful not to have too much "bonus to this, bonus to that". The most interesting stuff is always the abilities that do something truly unique; "Gearbreak: with a well-placed strike you can disable a limb" or perhaps even "... now it can only move to either the right/left".
Okay, those examples were very off the top of my head, but my philosophy is that roleplaying is made by options and choices, and the more you got the more enjoyable it will be. Each thing he can do constitutes a "Tool", and if you give him a new Tool is experience will expand; an enhancement of a Tool is far less noticeable.
"So when you join up with an organization you gain access to new talents. Some of the trees might be keyed to a specific character class, others might be accessible whenever you gain a new talent."
Bingo. I was thinking that there would be no prestige classes, only prestige talent trees that would be "unlocked" by joining certain factions, receiving special training, etc.
"I'd be careful limiting the starting players to certain specific archetypes; this puts a limit on creativity."
def just an option. If a player can think of something new and cool, go for it. The archetypes are just standing as basic templates for now, plus I think it helps describe the world a bit better.
Quote from: Cataclysmic Crowlooks nice enough :)
only be careful not to have too much "bonus to this, bonus to that". The most interesting stuff is always the abilities that do something truly unique; "Gearbreak: with a well-placed strike you can disable a limb" or perhaps even "... now it can only move to either the right/left".
Okay, those examples were very off the top of my head, but my philosophy is that roleplaying is made by options and choices, and the more you got the more enjoyable it will be. Each thing he can do constitutes a "Tool", and if you give him a new Tool is experience will expand; an enhancement of a Tool is far less noticeable.
yeah I know, but that's just the easiest way to do it at the moment. On the other hand though, the bonuses can help characters perform unique things that they think up. For example, I don't think that there should be specific talent that a hero needs to be able to lop of an arm, impale someone, or shatter a gear. I remember I was playing DnD once as a fighter I think and none of us could disarm an arrow trap in a hallway, so I suggested we just rip off a wooden door and use it as a giant shield as we walked down the hall (kinda a poor example of skill use, but a good one of in-game ingenuity)
I guess what I'm getting at is that even though bonuses are a lot less interesting than abilities, they can also be applied to many more situations (even though the Khaza Drum Training is admittedly aimed only towards constructs, but in its defense it fits the lore of the setting better that way) and, in my opinion at least, encourages players to try goofy and interesting things like the aforementioned example.
In short, I like bonuses because they can be applied to something creative the player thinks up, even though they are boring. I hope that wasn't too steam of consciousness babble ;)
ps. I was thinking that uber-fluffed fighting styles (with specific weapons or techniques) could make cool learn-able prestige trees. I put an example below.
[spoiler]
Ulaur-Shen TrainingUlaur-Shen Quiverblade - The hero receives a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage with the Light Blades weapon group as well as a +2 bonus to Tumble and Parry.
Ulaur-Shen Bloodknife - The hero an additional receives a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage with the Light Blades weapon group for a total of +2. All Light Blades the hero uses are treated as if they had the
keen property.
Ulaur-Shen Silentsword - The hero an additional receives a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage with the Light Blades for a total of +3. When the hero scores a critical hit with Light Blades, the target must make a Fortitude save equal to 10 + the heroes or die.
[/spoiler]
The fighting style thing would be quite nice :)
Although some might argue how balanced that last ability is ^^
balance-shalance :) WoW's for powergaming.
whelp, now that the classes are more are less settled, it may be time to focus on the incantation rule and figure magic out.
[EDIT] Ok, here would be an example of an incantation that would in turn allow a character to access a Talent Tree that would allow him some control over entropic energies.
[spoiler]Entropic Conduit
Effective Level: 6th
Skill Check: Knowledge (arcana) DC 29, 5 successes
Failure: Death
Casting Time: 60 minutes
Range: Touch
Target or Targets: Self
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This ritual permanently and painfully creates a conduit to the chaotic energies that are released as Arga dies through a mortal shell. To perform the incantation, a creature must first locate the convergence of three ever-changing entropic leylines that randomly jump across Arga. Secondly, the creature must scribe thirteen symbols of decay and madness to keep the leylines anchored. Once this is performed, the creature must plunge a rusty knife into it's heart. At the moment of the souls departure, entropic energies of Arga flood the caster, keeping her alive as well as creating a permanent link between the mortal soul and the eldritch energies of decay. The creature than has access to the Entropy Talent Tree.
Failure: Upon the failure of a single DC, the leylines disengage and the ritual is ruined. However, if the final DC is failed (which occurs as the knife is plunged into the heart) the character is destroyed by the surge of entropic energies.
Material Components: A rusty knife, and one each of the following: a stick of rotted wood, a vial of stagnant water, a pinch of mold, dust, and ash, the eye of a madman, a piece of broken pottery, a box into which a scream has been yelled into, a single child's tear, a black candle, the perfume of a dead women, a loaf of stale bread, and bottle of alcohol. These thirteen items must be placed upon the runes, which are to be written in the charcoal of a charred finger bone.
Backlash: If the ritual is completed successfully, the creature suffers a permanent penalty of -2 to Strength, Dexterity, and Charisma. The forces of chaos are most uncomfortable. If the ritual fails before the knife is used, the backlash does not occur. If the ritual fails when the knife is being used, the creature dies.
Talent Tree: Entropy
Whispers of Chaos - The player can hurl entropic "flames" an unlimited number of times per day. The "flames" themselves deal 2d6 points of damage and are treated as a ranged touch attack with no minimum range. The player also rolls a 1d10 to determine a random mutation (see list below.
Embers of Decay - The entropic "flames" now deal 2d8+2 points of damage. Player rolls a 1d10 again to determine a new random mutation. Player receives a -2 permanent penalty to Constitution and Wisdom.
Prerequisite - Whispers of Chaos
Winds of Madness - The entropic "flames" now deal 2d10+4 points of damage. Players rolls a 1d10 again to determine a new random mutation. Player receives another -2 permanent penalty to Strength and Constitution.
Prerequisite - Embers of Decay
1d10 TABLE OF RANDOM MUTATIONS!
1. Rumors of Entropy - Forbidden secrets are learned by the player. +2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom.
2. Char - The players skin erupts in perpetual green flames. +2 AC, fire resistance 20, -2 Dexterity.
3. Eye of the Unhinged - One of the players eyes swells and becomes monstrous as it takes on a life of it's own. -2 Charisma.
4. Cripple - Chaos renders one of your limbs useless.
5. Harbinger of Decay - The players entropic "flames" deal an additional +2 damage.
6. Baldness - The player becomes bald.
7. Babble - The player can no longer speak.
8. Deadly Vitality - The player's blood becomes as poison and hence becomes immune to all poisons.
9. Wheeze - The player constantly wheezes and coughs rust.
10. Scales - The player's skin becomes hard and dry, like dried mud. +2 AC, -2 Dexterity. [/spoiler]
I still magic is better off as rare and hard to access instead of available to everybody.
Definitely. Take a peak at what I updated above your last post. I was thinking that even finding the incantations - which would be recorded on the skull of a dead god or something cool like that - would be nearly a campaign in and of itself. The above example is also one of the more powerful examples you would find, even though it comes with many high prices.
Wow, that example turned my opinion around. Green light for incantations from me. ^^
Probably wouldn't hurt to have more entropic talents to choose between.
Hmm, an idea: a PrC (sort of) which allows you to get talents more often, but from a limited set of trees. An Arcanist class for example might allow you to gain more talents from Entropy and Athemancy, while not gaining any of the benefits of a normal class.
What about getting Talents or Feats outside of Leveling up? like, you find an ancient tome that teaches you something about alchemy for instance, so you get the Tome of Ish-Val-Ir Feat, which is a +4 (or whatever) bonus to the Alchemy skill? or the Grimbald's Special Twist Feat, which would be taught to a player by a guy named Grimbald (maybe as reward for a quest) and would be a +1 damage bonus with Light Blades?
Or as a result of training? Like being given the entry level of the Athemancer Talent Tree without it counting against your level-based Talent Trees because you've trained with them? Or automatically receiving the Whispers of Chaos Talent immediately after completing the Entropic Conduit ritual? Personally, I have no problem with giving feats and skill bonuses outside of the Level system. Heck, even the occasional Ability boost would be a great reward for something.
and I also would like to have much larger Talent Trees, but I think I'm going to make them no longer than 5 branches. There just isn't quite enough Talent "slots" for anything more than that. If a player maxes out a specific Talent Tree of five levels, that's half of his total talents over 20 levels. That being said, I think it would be awesome if a player took in-game initiative to expand or even develop a new branch for a existing tree or develop a new Talent Tree altogether.
ps. Back to the Entropic Conduit, did it seem like something that a player would want to complete? I thought dangling a little piece of entropic magic lore in front of a low-level player and then slowly giving them more and seeing if they take initiative to find out more would be pretty awesome.
I must admit the rewards seem a bit measly compared to the risks, but I'd do it just for the coolness factor. and those components would be so much fun to obtain :D Getting Whispers of Chaos immediately after finishing the Incantation seems like a good idea. Can't you do anything else with the Entropic powers? Well, i guess you can light fires and such of course.
Giving out feats for free can quickly get out of hand; I've never been an advocate for game balance or any such, the players should just enjoy themselves, but D20 depends a lot on balance so you should be careful not to tip the scales too much. Also, you must at least lay out some guidelines if others are to use the system.
And that's the problem with feats and talents; you want to have a lot of them, but can only get a few.
Balancing that out a bit more wouldn't be that hard I think. But I think you get the idea behind it ;)
But actually, no to the fires, yes to other things. "Flames" is probably the wrong word to use. "jets of decay" would be a closer fit. You could use the "jets" (What would be a good word to describe this?) to just totally disintegrate and speed up entropy on basically anything - armor, shields, buildings, the works. Armor would rust and turn to powder, buildings would rapidly age and break down, people would, well, *melt*. A creative character could destroy the floor that an enemy is standing on, melt a chain that's hold something above an enemy, collapse a ceiling - being able to disintegrate any thing immediately could lead to some really cool things.
I have this mental image of a dirty, small, wheezing man who all of a sudden just starts screaming and flinging sickly black flames-like things, totally laying waste to everything, before he crumples down, and starts wheezing and muttering to himself like nothing happened.
Hmm, maybe it should pass through hardness to make it more effective against objects. Or ignore the first 10 points or so.