Week 11 (October 16th, 2009)
[note=Got and FFP Idea?]Send me a PM. Remember, we are discussing any topic relating to world design (but not system design), so fire away.[/note]
[ic=Philosophy Archive]
Week 1 - The Cost of Magic (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?70759)
Week 2 - Villains (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?71232)
Week 3 - Genre Conventions (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?71697)
Week 4 - Design Method (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?72101)
Week 5 - Characters (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?72445)
Week 6 - Theme (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?72962)
Week 7 - PCs in the World (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73123)
Week 8 - Politics (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73352)
Week 9 - Government (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73505.last)
Week 10 - Alignment (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73709.last)
Week 11 - Magic Items (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73886.last)
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Magic Items
Like 'em? Hate 'em? Do you like settings abounding in magic and magic items, or should a single magic item be a rare wonder? What makes a good one?
Any pet peeves about magic items?
I like tools, the more the better. Magic items are tools, but what's most important about them is that they can replicate the qualities of modern or futuristic tools without having to leave the "swords and magic" realm of fantasy.
That said what I really like is using "science indistinguishable from magic" in an era when they can't fully explain it yet, whether fantasy or modern/near-future.
I like magic items. As long as they are not the random +1 longsword kind. They should have a history-a reason for existing. (Unless you just need to give your PCs a little help in that next dungeon corridor.) Giving a magic item a history and story really helps the world your PCs are in seem more uh..real.
I remember playing a game where the DM just handed out random magic items each session - because we were only playing about once a month and did'nt really have time for the full game experience. It was cool, but I just did'nt have the same affection for my magic items. They should be like that one gift you get to open on Christmas Eve.
ME has loads of these things. They fall under the categories of clockwork and artifacts. Clockwork being made by some unknown force/entity and artifacts being mortal mimicking of the clockwork. Like Sarisa said though there are no artifacts of +3 ogre disembowelment. All artifacts have a history and a purpose that can be shown without using crunch. Their operation is generally described by a short paragraph as opposed to "this is a +3 spoon of icecream scooping".
Mmmm. Ogre disembowlment. I mean Mmmm. Ice Cream.
Just want to say thanks to Pheonix for keeping these philosophy threads going. Good work guy.
I greatly agree with nomadic and sarisa. I like magic items but i strongly feel they should have backstory of some kind. Like if i really need to give a player a sword or something to replace his because a rustmonster got to it, im not gonna just hand them a mundane +x sword of whatever. Ill give them a sword and maybe probe them a little to see if they have ideas of the swords origin without me having to think anything up, some of my players come up with awesome ideas to.
Wait i might be ramblind now..
I think magic items should all be somewhat rare but easy enough to find if the players need to. And when in doubt let your players think up a back story for an item, it adds alot to the players feeling like they are part of the world.
Ok i think i got my point out.
I think the magic item backstories are okay, but only if you're going to have few magic items per person (i.e. 1, maybe 2). If you're playing a Christmas tree system like D&D it's just going to end up feeling silly, and even more than two items per person is really stretching it as far as I'm concerned.
Yes I would agree there but I feel that if you make magic items that abundant magic looses that bit of wonder that makes it magical in the first place.
My problem with +1 swords isn't so much whether it is a generic item common in the world or a unique item with backstory; it's the lack of any concrete effect. The +1 sword is just arbitrarily better. It's not specifically sharper, deadlier or blood-seeking. It's just better. Magic items shouldn't just be an excuse to "upgrade" your character. They should be tools with specific effects or unique pieces of arcane art.
I do not see magical items as tools; such a point of view would make them seem far too mundane and ordinary. I see them more as plot devices for stories and as parts of the setting's lore.
Quote from: GhostmanI do not see magical items as tools; such a point of view would make them seem far too mundane and ordinary. I see them more as plot devices for stories and as parts of the setting's lore.
While those do make for interesting accents I feel that nothing should ever be more important than the characters. Since I like complex tools, for what creative options they can give, in a fantasy setting this means I need magic or near-magic items. Combine that with making none more important than the character and you have "1 or 2 for backstory, rest are mundane".
It all comes down to how common magic is in your setting. If you have a setting that everyone has magic, chances are lots of people will have common magic items (unless magic items are strictly forbidden). The "special" magic items would be reserved for those really powerful/unique/ancient artifacts.
However if magic items are extremely rare, then your generic +1 longsword will have its own history and be priceless.
Personally I like magic items to be things that have a specific effect or function and then you can use them in whatever way you want. Magic items that aren't just generic weapons that are slightly better.
As for the whole +1 category, I think they use this for simplicity sake, you could in your game have a +1 sword be the equivalent of Crystal Edged, Blood-seeking, Acid-dripping, Steam-scalding or whatever. It's largely arbritrary, your left to add your own suffix/prefix or "enchantment type". Just another aspect of worldbuilding.
Weapons and Armor that increase the player's to-hit/defense are not truly magic items in my eyes. Those are merely necessary tools to help make players better with out resorting to increasing their base stats. The +1 effect can easily be explained with superior craftsmanship, and if necessary, the use of exotic metals and materials.
True Magic items (such as Flaming Swords, floating shields, bags of holding, etc.) are as common as the setting allows them to be.
Personally, I don't enjoy the Christmas tree effect common in 3.5 nor do I truly enjoy the 'no magic items' style games... So in reality I like a nice middle ground. A few utilitarian magic items and maybe a 1 really flavorful one sounds about right.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfWeapons and Armor that increase the player's to-hit/defense are not truly magic items in my eyes. Those are merely necessary tools to help make players better with out resorting to increasing their base stats. The +1 effect can easily be explained with superior craftsmanship, and if necessary, the use of exotic metals and materials.
True Magic items (such as Flaming Swords, floating shields, bags of holding, etc.) are as common as the setting allows them to be.
Personally, I don't enjoy the Christmas tree effect common in 3.5 nor do I truly enjoy the 'no magic items' style games... So in reality I like a nice middle ground. A few utilitarian magic items and maybe a 1 really flavorful one sounds about right.
If I ever get to play testing ME then you should join in. That's about the level it has. An adventurer will probably end up with a couple low end utilitarian items and one or two stronger but more focused items.
I think even powerful and unique magic items should be treated like tools with specific uses and capabilities (not necessarily mundane tools; just tools). The only other choice is the DnD way: treat them as an enhancement. In that case they cease to be something your character employs, and become a mere upgrade as i said before.
Quote from: LlumIt all comes down to how common magic is in your setting. If you have a setting that everyone has magic, chances are lots of people will have common magic items (unless magic items are strictly forbidden). The "special" magic items would be reserved for those really powerful/unique/ancient artifacts.
Yeah, I gotta admit I love having common magic/advanced science.
Still the other part of it is that if you make something common that people take it for granted then the focus shifts to what people do with it and how good they are.
I think I've babbled on in a few threads about the frequency distribution of magic,
Almost all of magic in Celtricia replicates spell effects. Scrolls are the nost common, for they allow casters to cast a spell Thet they already have some affinity for, with less cost.
Potions are next, as they are also just spell effects, but theat anyone, even the Void-Blind, can use. Still pretty common, though common only with low power spell effects.
Tools, or enhancers, are the next most common, these are items that slightly reduce the casting cost for a mage by giving a focus.
But the idea around Celtricia is always that since very few people can cast higher power magic (for the mathematically inclined, imagine a frequency dit. with commonality on one axis and power on the other, and a verysteeply rising slope), the ability to cast a spell to bind magic and then to cast that powerful spell are much more rare.
so the Skillet of 'Lemon' is pretty common, while A dagger of 'Enhance Poison, 2' is very rare.
The effect of this has been very good in gameplay. PLayers love the rare and unusual nature of items.
I have never been a big fan of the magical +1/+5 bonus that can be bestowed upon weapons and armor. I have been trying to move away from that and have those bonuses come from what and how the weapon/armor is made.
I guess you could say that I like a setting with moderate access to magical items. The items exist but a player can't simply walk into a shop and buy them. In most of the games that I have run, players have to find a mage who is willing to craft the item and then 'special' ordered it from them.
In Crystalstar, "magic items" are either very common or extremely rare, depending on how you want to look at the definition of a "magic item."
Almost everything beyond the most simple and medieval of inventions requires crystals to function, and the crystals behave in ways that would not correspond to our known laws of physics. This makes them magic items in some ways, but they are the "technology" of the setting as well, and many of the items are taken for granted. The mystery and wonder comes not from the obtaining of any sort of item, then, but when something that goes beyond what was thought possible is found.
In that case, a truly "magical" item would be something that does tasks that not even the most expert of crystalline artificer could comprehend how to make an item to do. That doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means it's like the equivalent of alien technology in sci-fi. Someone figured it out, we didn't yet. These would mostly be artifacts left over from the Prismatic Imperium or the like, or, for that matter, something left behind by the gods directly.
Eschaton doesn't have magic potions, scrolls, or anything like that.
The only source of power is souls, so magic items are items where souls have been bound inside an item. The only material known for this ability is orichalcum, Soulsteel. Meaning magic items are rarely happy about being items. And only items with at least some metal components can be magical.
In previous iterations of Oriental RPG settings, the concept of Ancestral Weapons exist. Kaidan expands on that idea. In those older settings, the daisho or samurai blade pair of katana and wakizashi have properties of samurai ancestors bound into these blades. The mechanic is traditionally a masterwork weapon belonging to a particular noble clan is granted to the low level samurai warrior, as he rises in level the spending of coin, one's own soul and prayer can activate the ancestral spiritual powers bound in the weapons. Thus the proverbial +5 sword of ?? needn't be sought or awarded at higher levels, the ancestral blade in ones possession rises in power along with the character, though losing one's ancestral weapon is a serious blow.
In Kaidan, the ancestral weapon is not limited to the samurai swords or even to samurai. All families in all castes and social standing could potentially possess Ancestral Weapons. From monks and ninja to farmers and thieves, all castes and player classes have the potential of possessing ancestral weapons. Since Kaidan is supposed to be a spiritual place this only makes sense. Such a weapon could be anything, for example, a ninja's climbing claws or chain weapons could possess an ancestral Ninja spirit powers, or even a farmer's rake could have potential arcane weapon use capabilities.
Recognition of the value ones ancestors and ancestral spirits, and belief in their continued existence through their prized possessions passed down as inheritance should not be the providence to the samurai caste alone. All Kaidanese honor their ancestors, all possess some type of weapon to defend themselves, the potential exists in all such items (including non-weapon items.)
This of course does not mean all weapons are ancestral weapons, but of the higher quality ones, there is the potential of becoming an ancestral weapon containing essences of your soul that may be passed down to future generations and "awakened" providing arcane and spiritual benefits.
These, of course, aren't the only arcane devices, but ones with significance in Kaidan.
GP
I managed to eliminate all possibility of magic items as such in my own setting; early on I declared that "magic is life" and that, with very few exceptions, magic could only be created by living things and could only affect living things. It was only after I'd come to that conclusion that I realized this basically negated the possibility of any kind of magic equipment. Allowing The Breath to be stored in a sword would basically turn my whole fictional metaphysics upside-down.
I suppose it remains to be seen whether that's something that will turn out to be good or bad. It's certainly limiting, though limits are by no means always problematic. Sometimes we make decisions on fluff without really considering their impact on mechanics and gameplay; such is life (or at least, such is campaign-building).
My magic items are middle of the road. Mages can make potions (it's pretty much the only way they can cast certain spells on other people instead of themselves), but it costs time and money, either of which might be scarce. Further, there's unique magic items lying around that range from doomsday device to more mundane things (Vreeg, I am so stealing skillet of lemon for a game), and from one of a kind to rabbit's foot.
Rare gear isn't limited to the magical (or the super science). In my setting as I see it, mounts, heavy armor, and guns/ammo are somewhat scarce, and players will have to work or pay an arm and a leg for them. And if the players work real hard at it, they can find a hidden cache of gatling guns and other things in the dungeon I'm writing up.
Quote from: PolycarpI managed to eliminate all possibility of magic items as such in my own setting; early on I declared that "magic is life" and that, with very few exceptions, magic could only be created by living things and could only affect living things. It was only after I'd come to that conclusion that I realized this basically negated the possibility of any kind of magic equipment. Allowing The Breath to be stored in a sword would basically turn my whole fictional metaphysics upside-down.
I suppose it remains to be seen whether that's something that will turn out to be good or bad. It's certainly limiting, though limits are by no means always problematic. Sometimes we make decisions on fluff without really considering their impact on mechanics and gameplay; such is life (or at least, such is campaign-building).
Well you did eliminate items that can create or manipulate magic. However your cogs show that you haven't totally eliminated magic items. They are just limited to items that draw energy from magic instead of manipulating it. Which fits your flavor quite well. So I'd say CJ has magic items but they aren't like the conventional fantasy items you find in many settings.
Remember Secret of Mana? Were'nt those weapons tempered or re-forged or somthing? So technically they were the same magic weapons used throughout the whole game. I thought that was a pretty cool concept. It's such a shame to have to sell off a magic item in an rpg when the 'cool' factor is present. I think I still have Cloud Strifes 'Nail Bat' on a PS2 memory card somewhere around here....
I like magic items. I don't like +1 longswords either. It seems like nobody does. Not so much for any of the reasons already mentioned, but its just cooler to have a sentient Bow of Blood that has blood seeking arrows, but is always wearing on your mind, always hungering for blood.
My point is I like interesting, unique magic items. And I also really like magic item backstories, if not just so they let me come up with adventures really quickly.
The official D&D podcast had a similar debate about Magic Items (episode 10) and a few of the interesting points they raised were:
"Turns out the needs of a [novel] and the needs of a game can at times be very, very different. And that what works well in the hands of an author on a piece of paper doesn't necessarily work any where close to the same when all of the character's in that [novel] are being played by real people with real wants and desires and needs for information." ~ Andy Collins
"In a novel an item or artifact can afford to have this mystery built around it, where as I see many magic items designed for D&D to have the opposite of that - a very clear intended use. 'This is the item you use to get across the super slippery floor;' 'This is the item you use to neutralize the vat of acid that might be in your way'... There's this almost... sharper image catalog aspect to it. All these very specific, very utility driven items rather than these sort of bizarre/mystical things because, in a lot of cases character classes already cover most of that interesting stuff." ~ Mike Mearls
"It's also true that where as the player character I'm running in a game has needs of specific tools and I can often foresee those needs and choose to meet them with magic items or other pieces of gear... Frodo didn't really have a choice on what gear he was going to use in getting from the Shire to Mount Doom. The One Ring wasn't a piece of equipment, it wasn't a tool for him, . It was a MacGuffin, it was a story device; and most magic items in literature are those sorts of things, they're not tools the character use, they're parts of the story the author chooses to get across a particular concept." ~ Andy Collins
"Not only does Frodo not regard the One Ring as a tool necessarily, he never got the choice between 'do I want the One Ring or do I want Stormbringer?' It would have been a very different novel had he chosen Stormbringer." ~ David Noonan
"I also think there's an issue of possessor overload at a table - a fantasy novel can certainly get away with a horn that when you blow it a dozen Valkyries come swooping out of the air and attack your enemies. That's pretty easy to write, relatively speaking but doing that at a game table, that's all of a sudden 12 more creatures at the table that somebody has to keep track of. Balance issues aside, just the sheer number of dudes running around on the map that causes a possessor overload." David Noonan
"You can only get good story in so many items of significance. You can't put it into every little piece of the game. Every feat a fighter takes can't have a story attached to it, otherwise the Fighter has too many bloody stories to keep track of." ~ Andy Collins
"It's tricky for every magic item on a given character to be this cool idiosyncratic item for a couple of reasons: first of all, coolness is relative and if you have 10 magic items, there's always going to be one that's the least cool of the one's you own and there's always going to be one that's the most cool. The other thing is that, again, it's sort of a possessor overload kind of problem where, if you have 10 magic items all of which do interesting things... After a while that makes for a very crowded character sheet and a very crowded set of choices. Every round you have to look at all your gear and ask 'well, is this going to save me?' 'is this going to save me?' 'is this going to save me?' That doesn't just slow you down, it slows down everybody at the table." ~ David Noonan.
Quote from: EEThe official D&D podcast had a similar debate about Magic Items (episode 10) and a few of the interesting points they raised were:
Fascinating quotes; very interesting to read.
I use a handful of different types of magic items in the Jade Stage, but most of them are specific tools for specific types of mages. (Many of them also aren't particularly "magic items" in and of themselves, but rather are specialized tools for magic users.) Mystics get their sacred clays and pigments, sorcerors get their ritual knives and rune-drawing styluses, spirit-drinkers get their sealed vials of sanctified water. These are not "equipment upgrades". They are not the sorts of things you find in treasure hoards (and if you did find them there, you probably wouldn't find them very useful).
Sorcerors get the option to make a Confluence, should they want to, by permanently transferring some of their power into a ring or a staff or a rock (or whatever). The resulting item keeps them "plugged into the Conduit" and boosts their magical clout, but if it gets lost or stolen, they're weaker than if they had never made one. So this is a choice between greater power and greater safety; you can choose a boost if you're also willing to accept a pretty big Achilles' heel.
Hen-gan adepts can weave magic into objects in such a way that they influence emotions; they often give these to their important servants and proxies. People who have these objects in their possession gradually develop strong emotions that are not their own-- general sentiments like courage, joy, or despondency, or specific feelings like loyalty or hatred towards a specific person. Some of these objects are useful to those who possess them, and others are insidious instruments of control.
I do have a handful of more traditional-type "magic weapons" floating around; they are ork steel artifacts, forged through unknown and probably magical means by the now-extinct orks, and they cannot be duplicated. There is a finite number of surviving ork steel objects, and they are priceless. So if you have one, it is very old (and has as much exciting history as you want to establish for it), and people are definitely going to want to take it away from you.