Week 14 (Nov 7, 2009)
[note=Got an Topic Idea?]Send me a PM. Remember, we are discussing any topic relating to world design (but not system design), so fire away.[/note]
[ic=Philosophy Archive]
Week 1 - The Cost of Magic (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?70759)
Week 2 - Villains (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?71232)
Week 3 - Genre Conventions (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?71697)
Week 4 - Design Method (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?72101)
Week 5 - Characters (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?72445)
Week 6 - Theme (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?72962)
Week 7 - PCs in the World (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73123)
Week 8 - Politics (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73352)
Week 9 - Government (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73505.last)
Week 10 - Alignment (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73709.last)
Week 11 - Magic Items (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73886.last)
Week 12 - Philosophy (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?74200.last)
Week 13 - Races & Ethnicity (http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?74353.0)
Week 14 - Tone (http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?74586.0)
[/ic]
Tone
Many designers feel the tone of a setting is one of its most important aspects. Some might say tone is inexorably tied to theme, others that they are two different beasts. What are your thoughts on tone? Can tone be set by the designer, or does it come as much from the GM and players?
What kind of tone do you prefer in creating a setting? What about in reading? In playing? If they're not the same, why might that be? Do you enjoy lighter or darker tones?
How do you convey the tone?
I'm sure that a large part of tone does come from the GM and players, but it's certainly possible to create part of the tone in the design of a setting. It's no secret that I'm a fan of the "dark" tone, or at very least the "weird." I like my fantasy to awe and delight me but also to alienate and even disturb me, and I find a lot of fantasy does the unfortunate opposite - coddles, cossets, comforts.
Tone is innately tied to a setting but, a good setting should at least have a few 'opt outs' for players and DMs to explore other aspects of the setting. Take 40k for example, the entire universe is heavily Grim Dark in nature but even that setting allows you an opt out in the form of Rogue Traders (i.e. swashbuckling space merchants).
Quote from: PhoenixMany designers feel the tone of a setting is one of its most important aspects. Some might say tone is inexorably tied to theme, others that they are two different beasts. What are your thoughts on tone? Can tone be set by the designer, or does it come as much from the GM and players?
If the theme is the right sort and set the right way there's almost no way for it to be played differently. A dark setting that's stacked against heroism or cross-loaded terrible people, places, and happenings is going to be nearly impossible for comedy heroes than a setting that might be kind of dark but doesn't push the darkness as hard.
Yes, GMs and players can try to alter tone, but in my opinion if this is accomplished by altering elements of a setting than one is really playing in a setting with a different set tone.
Quote from: PhoenixWhat kind of tone do you prefer in creating a setting? What about in reading? In playing? If they're not the same, why might that be? Do you enjoy lighter or darker tones?
I think everyone who's been on this site longer than a year knows what I like. And even then I could write paragraphs on why that haven't been seen yet. But I'm not up for beating that dead, putrid, maggot-ridden horse.
Summary answer: Light-hearted, easier-living, smooth (vs. gritty) as the answer for all the first three questions. "Lighter" for the last one.
[blockquote=Silvercat Moonpaw]A dark setting that's stacked against heroism or cross-loaded terrible people, places, and happenings is going to be nearly impossible for comedy heroes[/blockquote]Perhaps impossible for comedy heroes - but I'd say not for comedy altogether. Warhammer 40K, the most notoriously Grim-Dark world out there (I mean, it invented the term!), is in places (I think) pretty hilarious - the Orks in particular. There's a particular brand of black-as-hell, over the top, gallows humor that the world has going on in spots... kinda like how Sin City or Inglourious Basterdz are pretty damn dark, but as the same time very funny. Horror and humor don't have to be antithetical.
(Damn it, people: you need a post delete function.)
I'm with steerpike on this one. You can have absolutely have a black as night tone and still have humor fitting in naturally. It just tends to be darker humor to fit the darker tone. The orks are a perfect example of this. You may not consider it funny but that doesn't stop it from being humor, just humorous to you.
QuoteMany designers feel the tone of a setting is one of its most important aspects. Some might say tone is inexorably tied to theme, others that they are two different beasts. What are your thoughts on tone? Can tone be set by the designer, or does it come as much from the GM and players?
What kind of tone do you prefer in creating a setting? What about in reading? In playing? If they're not the same, why might that be? Do you enjoy lighter or darker tones?
How do you convey the tone?
Ultimately tone falls to the GM to convey, a designer creates the selection for GMs to pull from in terms of tone flavor, but in the end it is the GM that pulls a particular one from the shelf and runs it (either vanilla or with their own modified tone).
As for tone, by now the perceptive have probably picked up that I am a fan of adventure/exploration (the middle road between smooth and light and dark and gritty). I like awe-inspiring places and people with a knack for doing the insane, tone wise I like my bloody, hopeless fights to have a small silver lining. My tone preference for reading on the other hand is none, I will read anything (but that's a tale for another day).
Most times I favor dark tone in my settings, my reading, and many of my favorite games.
On the other hand, I like a little variety now and then. And for D&D, usually a middle ground is better. I don't think it's the best system for truly dark.
There's a thread on ENWorld about DMs liking dark-gritty and players the opposite. http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/266887-why-do-dms-like-dark-gritty-worlds-players-opposite.html Somehow if that were the case I think I'd have half a shot of finding one I like as the market would have to cater to players' tastes at least once and a while.
It is something I've wondered about, though: Why does the darker and grittier stuff predominate? I suppose the answer might be easy: there's stuff to do and/or the PCs can be heroes. Somehow I'm not sure that's the whole of it: I don't buy that people can just shove off the dark emotions the tone must bring out. I'm guessing they want to feel that way or they'd have to take breaks to play something less dark, but why?
QuoteWhy does the darker and grittier stuff predominate?
I don't think it does, though everything goes through cycles, of course. Tastes change and change again with the times. People get tired of bright and want gritty, people get tired of gritty and want bright.
But D&D remains the most popular TTRPG, and I'd hardly call it dark. It's high fantasy, and it may not be light-hearted, but the base game is sure closer to that the dark end. And my experience has been that D&D does not do well if you move it too far towards the dark end--I was not impressed with Ravenloft in play.
Quote from: PhoenixAnd my experience has been that D&D does not do well if you move it too far towards the dark end
This much I do not understand. Darkness has no need of rules, simply a persistent DM and a grim world in which to adventure.
For fantasy, I prefer the tone to be something akin to Martin's ASoIaF or Howard's Hyborian Age - but I can certainly enjoy stories both darker and lighter than these.
Whether or not the tone of a setting must be followed very closely, really depends on the setting itself. Some worlds have strongly defined tone while others may be more flexible. Even within a single story one could find great contrasts in tone; moments of intense despondence and moments of joyous relief. Actually the Lord of the Rings has this alternation to a surprising degree.
Quote from: PhoenixQuoteWhy does the darker and grittier stuff predominate?
Wish they'd get tired of the gritty faster.
EE, as I said, I can only speak of my experience. I've play with great GMs and terrible ones.
The fact you're playing a game automatically creates a different atmosphere from reading a novel. Whatever system you use will affect that experience. The choices and style of the GM will also affect the experience. But I don't think they're independent of each other.
@Ghostman, I usually agree with those two preferences (and your later thoughts on tone).
@SM, I'd say we may already be in that phase. Your perception of "dark" may be too broad.
Quote from: Phoenix@SM, I'd say we may already be in that phase. Your perception of "dark" may be too broad.
That bodes even worse. Any examples?
I think the idea of phases might oversimplify things. There's always been lots and lots of dark fantasy being written, from Victorian gothic to Lovecraft to Peake to Mieville; and there's also been plenty of good "lighter" heroic/high fantasy out there, too - Terry Practhett, Llyod Alexander, T.H. White, Garth Nix, Phillip Pullman (well, he`s arguably darker in places)... there might be very broad trends, perhaps moreso in gaming. I think the reason some people prefer darker fantasy is that so much lighter-toned fantasy is written predominantly for children, and writing children's lit that's still interesting to the majority of adults while definitely not impossible (Un Lun Dun and Sabriel come to mind in particular) can be difficult. More mature fantasy tends to slip almost inevitably into at least somewhat darker (or at least grayer) territory.
Nomadic and Moonpaw-
QuoteAs for tone, by now the perceptive have probably picked up that I am a fan of adventure/exploration (the middle road between smooth and light and dark and gritty). I like awe-inspiring places and people with a knack for doing the insane, tone wise I like my bloody, hopeless fights to have a small silver lining. My tone preference for reading on the other hand is none, I will read anything (but that's a tale for another day).
There's a thread on ENWorld about DMs liking dark-gritty and players the opposite. http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/266887-why-do-dms-like-dark-gritty-worlds-players-opposite.html Somehow if that were the case I think I'd have half a shot of finding one I like as the market would have to cater to players' tastes at least once and a while.[/quote]
Y'all should definitely play in my game groups. The only thing I do that's even close to dark are my Cthulu games.
I like to GM games that are realistically structured with farming supply chains- geopolitical struggles- no clear good/evil- no clear morality actually, but with a lot of Wow! and amusing factors- sometimes though I push this too far and scare characters- such as when I threw a bunch of 5th level characters into a D-Day invasion scenario in the middle of a massive battle between Fey exploding into pieces as lightning bolts and magic missiless burst them into faery dust, Nazi-like Sahaguin coming ashore with giant swimming pools and randomly being dusted with faery dust and morphing into creatures like the ones from GOBLINS' shield of wonder, Witches and dryads awakening trees, crack commando units of Kobolds and Lizardfolk hordes fleeing the battle and fighting each other and the characters for land-space on the edges of the swamp to settle down and reorganize-- the characters' response was "I'll do my mission here for the good of the game, but if I was this guy I'd be turning tail and running right about now." I have since then tried to tone things down a bit on the "epic" scale.
Even my Cthulu games have a lot of wonder and discovery in them.
As a side comment, I recently discovered that running Cthulu games on skype works perfectly.
--
I like to play in games that have exploration and hope, therefore, I design that way, and I GM games that way.
Quote from: SteerpikeI think the reason some people prefer darker fantasy is that so much lighter-toned fantasy is written predominantly for children, and writing children's lit that's still interesting to the majority of adults while definitely not impossible (Un Lun Dun and Sabriel come to mind in particular) can be difficult. More mature fantasy tends to slip almost inevitably into at least somewhat darker (or at least grayer) territory.
Steerpike is probably right here.
Also, it's difficult to make light fantasy interesting. Dark=more inherent conflicts.
But I like the challenge- that's why I created Gloria. :)
QuoteMany designers feel the tone of a setting is one of its most important aspects. Some might say tone is inexorably tied to theme, others that they are two different beasts. What are your thoughts on tone? Can tone be set by the designer, or does it come as much from the GM and players?
What kind of tone do you prefer in creating a setting? What about in reading? In playing? If they're not the same, why might that be? Do you enjoy lighter or darker tones?[/quote]
In creating a setting, I prefer exploration/wonder.
In reading, I prefer exploration- like that of Watt-Evans' books.
In playing, I also prefer exploration/wonder/political.
I prefer lighter tones. George RR Martin and Mieville are about as dark as I read- Stephen King's Dark Tower was just too plodding for me to enjoy. And White Wolf's "fiction" is often laughable. I've looked at Warhammer- have yet to read it, but it seems a little silly.
@light dragon
I think there was a bit of a mixup in interpretation heh. I am not a big fan of light. I most likely tend towards darker stuff than you do and I know for a fact I like things darker than SCMP does. My awe inspiring stuff has as much tragedy as hope. It's dark but it isn't steerpike dark. Basically its a fence sitter with one side being high fantasy light and the other being a grim dark pit. This is my GM side though, my player side will play literally anything (and I mean anything, from maid rpg to high fantasy, to alley cat gang wars, etc).
Quote from: SteerpikeI think the reason some people prefer darker fantasy is that so much lighter-toned fantasy is written predominantly for children, and writing children's lit that's still interesting to the majority of adults while definitely not impossible (Un Lun Dun and Sabriel come to mind in particular) can be difficult. More mature fantasy tends to slip almost inevitably into at least somewhat darker (or at least grayer) territory.
I think this is the part I don't get: What's so bad about something written for children? I think people get into this mindset of rejecting "childish" things in a belief that there is a code of behavior they must follow to be "adults" without actually keeping an open mind that would let them see childish things as still interesting.
(In addition I've never seen anything for "adults" as actually "mature". The way characters resolve problems in children's ficiton is mature, the way things happen in adult fiction is childish.)
[blockquote=Silvercat Moonpaw]I think this is the part I don't get: What's so bad about something written for children? I think people get into this mindset of rejecting "childish" things in a belief that there is a code of behavior they must follow to be "adults" without actually keeping an open mind that would let them see childish things as still interesting.
[/blockquote]I`d actually agree with you, for the most part - too many people dismiss children`s literature (I wouldn`t necessarily consider myself part of "the majority of adults"). That said there`s still some children`s lit I like and some I don`t. A lot of children`s lit tends to be very creepy without being excessively "dark" (Alice, The Witches, Coraline) in the sense that they don`t actually include a lot of gore or sex or death in them, but still manage an edge of the grotesque - this tends to be my favorite stuff because I`m just a sucker for this aesthetic.
EDIT: Maybe I`m starting to conflate dark and mature too much. Perhaps those works are still dark (dark but also "childish"). What would you guy say?
Stories made for children need not be lighthearted. Actually a whole lot of original folklore are cautionary tales meant to scare 'em straight.
So what are some examples of really good, light-toned fantasy out there? Sword in the Stone? Would the Prydain Chronicles count? I mean they've got death-lords, zombies, and plenty of bloody fighting.
Something Light and Good...
Piers Anthony: Xanth (Good or at least decent until around book 16)
Robert Asprin: MYTH Series
Lawrence Watt:-Evans- Ethshar Series.
Tone encompasses a lot. I'm hearing a lot of usages in the responses. In literature, Tone is part of technique used to evoke mood and emotion, If I am remembereing rightly. Thought I'd get that in first. So Tone is used to create mood, it is NOT mood.
In a similar vein, the setting and the game are two seperate, related things. So while the game can be heavily influenced by the players, the setting is affected less by the players. The setting and many elements may be written and completed before there even is any play. So while a good GM continues to create and add onto a current setting based on what the players seem to like, the 'Play' affects the 'Game' which influences the 'Setting'.
And while this is an antimechanical thread, the mechanics chosen are the RPG equiv. of a literary technique. Low HP rules give a feeling of mortality, Fantastic amounts of player races give a feeling of wonder and alienness, divine magic rules can be used to increase the importance of faith, etc.
'Dark vs Light' is one of the most important tonal scales/continuums. Both in terms of the presence of same, the amount of same, the power of them, and the purposes behind these dichotomies. Some would use the term good and evil, and these help, but are not the same.
Once again, a world that uses the mechanic of alignment is going to find their world a lot more easily understood by players and readers, whereas those of us that do not use these rules leave a more muddy 'tone' to our game.
Players and readers tend to notice the absence of light more in tonality than the presence of darkness. Evilness and bad fortune is concrete in play, but if there is no place of true safety or succor, than the players have a very strong visceral response to this, I find. No save haven is a fearful concept.
'Old vs New' is another important tonal cue to set, one that GM's seem to think that is easy to evoke, but that is in reality quite challenging. On the other hand, shiny newness is often a great tone to set as well, one that lends hope to a setting. Star Trek is always a great example of this, brash optimism and the hope of technology inferred through clean, bright spacecraft and an unbreakable demonstration of team unity.
Celtricia has always tried to convey the tone of the inexorable tide of time, layer upon layer of history as a silent spectre looming over the action of each character. The
"the underlying struggle between the civilization of today against the Sins of the Past"
as it is called.
"Lighthearted vs Serious" is another important tonal issue. What is going on in the world? Are the players going to be fighting generic mook-orcs, rescuing princesses, stealing from the rich and helping the duke protect a city, or are they going to be collecting taxes for the duke, negotiating with a humanoid tribe for water rights to a river and helping rebuild a shattered theives guild from the ground up?
More later.
Quote from: LordVreegPlayers and readers tend to notice the absence of light more in tonality than the presence of darkness. Evilness and bad fortune is concrete in play, but if there is no place of true safety or succor, than the players have a very strong visceral response to this, I find. No save haven is a fearful concept.
This is a very interesting (and I bet, important) observation. Would this be the setting structure equivalent for "breathers" between more climactic scenes in a narrative? What kinds of things can be used in the role of safe havens - places, characters, events? Is there a need to inject a truly positive tone into these elements, or would it suffice to simply downplay the general grittiness of the setting? Should safe havens be treated as reasonably static features (according to the story/campaign's needs) or can they be fragile, temporal shelters that offer little more than temporary ease?
Quote from: GhostmanQuote from: LordVreegPlayers and readers tend to notice the absence of light more in tonality than the presence of darkness. Evilness and bad fortune is concrete in play, but if there is no place of true safety or succor, than the players have a very strong visceral response to this, I find. No save haven is a fearful concept.
This is a very interesting (and I bet, important) observation. Would this be the setting structure equivalent for "breathers" between more climactic scenes in a narrative? What kinds of things can be used in the role of safe havens - places, characters, events? Is there a need to inject a truly positive tone into these elements, or would it suffice to simply downplay the general grittiness of the setting? Should safe havens be treated as reasonably static features (according to the story/campaign's needs) or can they be fragile, temporal shelters that offer little more than temporary ease?
Hmm, I do think that "breathers" could certainly affect tone. If the group has a place to lay low and recover even if it is a run down shack in some slum it is going to feel more easy going than a setting where its constant conflict one incident after another.
Quote from: NomadicHmm, I do think that "breathers" could certainly affect tone. If the group has a place to lay low and recover even if it is a run down shack in some slum it is going to feel more easy going than a setting where its constant conflict one incident after another.
Although the tone's going to feel darker even
with a breather if there's a good indication there's more conflict coming soon or otherwise pointing out the breather is temporary.
True but it will still be lighter than if it didn't have a breather at all.
Quote from: NomadicTrue but it will still be lighter than if it didn't have a breather at all.
But with out breathers the conflict to becomes boring, thus loosing the sense of darkness.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicTrue but it will still be lighter than if it didn't have a breather at all.
But with out breathers the conflict to becomes boring, thus loosing the sense of darkness.
Our celtricia group is right now going through a crazy conflict after conflict situation and it certainly is not boring. The tone is becoming almost fearful and crazy since we just know that there is something else around the next corner. I would not call it boring in the least.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicTrue but it will still be lighter than if it didn't have a breather at all.
But with out breathers the conflict to becomes boring, thus loosing the sense of darkness.
Our celtricia group is right now going through a crazy conflict after conflict situation and it certainly is not boring. The tone is becoming almost fearful and crazy since we just know that there is something else around the next corner. I would not call it boring in the least.
That very much relies on having a good DM but then again, what doesn't?
Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicQuote from: Elemental_ElfQuote from: NomadicTrue but it will still be lighter than if it didn't have a breather at all.
But with out breathers the conflict to becomes boring, thus loosing the sense of darkness.
Our celtricia group is right now going through a crazy conflict after conflict situation and it certainly is not boring. The tone is becoming almost fearful and crazy since we just know that there is something else around the next corner. I would not call it boring in the least.
That very much relies on having a good DM but then again, what doesn't?
Very true, and vreeg is one of the best.
I think "breathers" are a question of pacing. Pacing affects tone, certainly, but is a separate issue. Pacing is naturally crucial in a story, but a little less so in gaming. That is because, in gaming, most of us play once a week, and thus insert our own release of tension simply by separation. In a story, if you don't have so moments of reduced tension (you never want it go away entirely), the moments of high tension start to lose their impact (i.e. the whole story cannot be a climax).
Quote from: GhostmanQuote from: LordVreegPlayers and readers tend to notice the absence of light more in tonality than the presence of darkness. Evilness and bad fortune is concrete in play, but if there is no place of true safety or succor, than the players have a very strong visceral response to this, I find. No save haven is a fearful concept.
This is a very interesting (and I bet, important) observation. Would this be the setting structure equivalent for "breathers" between more climactic scenes in a narrative? What kinds of things can be used in the role of safe havens - places, characters, events? Is there a need to inject a truly positive tone into these elements, or would it suffice to simply downplay the general grittiness of the setting? Should safe havens be treated as reasonably static features (according to the story/campaign's needs) or can they be fragile, temporal shelters that offer little more than temporary ease?
This, I think, is related to these breathers, but not the same. You can have a breather simply by the PCs having a chance to rest in a shack.
Compare this to say LotR with Rivendale and Lothlorien, which represented legitimate locations of light, places of real safety. The Fellowship could not remain there forever, but they could see something beautiful in the world they were trying to save, and find peace for a time.
Yes.
I mentioned in my last post the difference between the game and the setting, and that the game affects the setting, but is not the setting.
Breathers and game pace are not what I was talking about. Phoenix has me right when he notes:
[blockquote=Phoenix]"Compare this to say LotR with Rivendale and Lothlorien, which represented legitimate locations of light, places of real safety. The Fellowship could not remain there forever, but they could see something beautiful in the world they were trying to save, and find peace for a time"[/blockquote]
To carry this further, one of the primary underlying themes of many fantasies is 'Coming Home'. Though Rivendell and Lothlorien are important features, the Shire, it's protection, it's very existence is a Talisman for those who left it behind.
And carefully constructed and understood from the beginning is the importance of the hobbits coming back to the Shire Violated. There is nothing stronger or more wrenching to them, after all they had been through.
Are these places available? In Celtricia, it is one of the prime functions of the Guild or School a player belongs to, and in a few different storylines, it has been catastrophically affecting when a PC finds out that their Guild is not what they think it is.
"There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?" --Frodo
On light vs. darkness... I'm shooting for something between Miyazaki's stuff (on the lighter side) and Fullmetal Alchemist (on the darker side).
As I see it, there isn't a whole lot of traditional "evil" in my setting. There are things and people whose power and/or purpose is destructive, but that doesn't always make them evil. The sentinels near the bottom of the local dungeon exist for the sole purpose of devouring those that go there, but they prevent the huge cataclysm that could occur if someone woke up the warped godling at the bottom. Even the godling doesn't have malice per se. There are people who are selfish and amoral, but again they're still people, may still feel love for a select few, and if nothing else can be bought off with minimum bloodshed. There are people who are heroes in their own minds championing utterly wrongheaded ideals, again still people, and because they value "being right" if you change their minds they may be valuable allies. True there are those with vendettas and legit hate, and there are a few of those elder cosmic evils lying around, because what is fantasy or sword and sorcery without one or two unambiguous villains? But still for the most part people are people.
As for breathers and breathing room, players will find the good in the setting and will hopefully work to protect it so they can enjoy it some more. When it comes to that kind of player interest in the setting, for me it almost always comes in the form of relationships with NPCs more than places. I'm not entirely sure why that is; it's just something I've noticed.
Vreeg - while the points of light you were discussing might be settings rather than aspects of a game/story it seems to me that they often still function in a narrative as breathers/pacing mechanisms once translated into a living game; to return to the LOTR example there's a breath between Weathertop/the Flight to the Ford and the Mines of Moria (Rivendell) and, in turn, a breath between the Mines of Moria and Amon Hen (Lorien).
[blockquote=Beej]True there are those with vendettas and legit hate, and there are a few of those elder cosmic evils lying around, because what is fantasy or sword and sorcery without one or two unambiguous villains? But still for the most part people are people.[/blockquote]
Yes, sometimes this 'Light vs Dark' continuum is all shades of grey, more motivation than monolithic. If People being people is the primary sources of conflict, then it is merely scale with more gradiation, and thus harder to discern for the players. Not bad or good, just a different tone used to create a specific feel.
Meh, personally I like unambiguous evil. Both in terms of battling and in terms of, you know, liking as a person. Seriously: I find it easier to like people if they unambiguously enjoy what they do, good or bad/evil.
:axe:
Quote from: SteerpikeVreeg - while the points of light you were discussing might be settings rather than aspects of a game/story it seems to me that they often still function in a narrative as breathers/pacing mechanisms once translated into a living game; to return to the LOTR example there's a breath between Weathertop/the Flight to the Ford and the Mines of Moria (Rivendell) and, in turn, a breath between the Mines of Moria and Amon Hen (Lorien).
Pacing is a game fucntion, placement is a setting function. Rivendell is a Place in a setting design that serves many functions, but as a breateher/rest, it serves a game function. The two are not mutually exclusive at all, rather, they
need to exist as both. As Tolkien created Middle Earth as the backdrop for his stories(plural. Very important. Plural), and Rivendell is used in the Hobbit, in LotR as a historical place, as well as being used in the narrative of LotR.
You are totally correct in it serving that purpose in the 'narrative', whcih is analogous to the 'game'. Rivendell is also, in terms of setting design, a bastion of safety, one of few in the Wilds of Middle earth.
And did I use the term 'Points of Light'? I won't even look right now, but if I did, friggin' shoot me.
In Kaidan, dark is definitely the primary flavor. Especially in the current "Gaijin" or outsiders mini-campaign arc, it is the constant unexpected since this is a land alien to the PC party's world. Pace does control the level of action and gives an illusion of peace as the adventure moves along.
In the first adventure - The Gift: Part 1, the PCs arrive in a new world, at the port of Gaijinoshima, although they are free to explore the port town, awaiting for travel papers for a designated three day minimum period puts the party in a wait and see mode. However, encounters with the Yakuza in town creates a dynamic that the party must negotiate. Once the party leaves the port town, a kind of movement forward actually gives some relieve in the tensions found at Gaijinoshima. Being "on the road again" gives some sense of peace and moving forward. Even the arrival to a country inn furthers this sense of safety. Of course, after a single night's stay at the country inn, it is revealed the party is caught within an extra-dimensional place cursed with a haunting they must solve - which throws them back into the "frying pan" of uncertainly once again. Beyond this the continuing trip to Tsue-jo castle becomes a series of wilderness encounters though the pace remains steady. Except for the unexpected wait and see aspect to the end of the adventure, the pace is only slightly lessened - awaiting the start of the next adventure.
While more emphasized in the initial campaign arc, having to deal with the unknown is a constant struggle for adventurers in Kaidan.
The tone is definitely dark, but like gothic horror, there are moments of beauty and peace interjected between running to and from the unknown and encounters with abject terror. Its fun and scary, but definitely paced, though movement is always in progress, as the pace is steady throughout.
GP
Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawMeh, personally I like unambiguous evil. Both in terms of battling and in terms of, you know, liking as a person. Seriously: I find it easier to like people if they unambiguously enjoy what they do, good or bad/evil.
:axe:
Unambiguous evil, or something that looks close enough, can be fun. Again, ambiguous evil doesn't mean "evil, but not enjoying it." I'm sure the bandit king of the black forest loves his job, and needs no more motivation than loving wine, wealth, women, and song. But his motive means the difference between letting you run home naked after he mugs you and stalking you for months before blackmailing you into doing his dirty work like another villain would. I'm not saying every villain should be sympathetic or that the heroes should be as bad as those they fight... just that variety is the spice of life.
Quote from: beejazzI'm sure the bandit king of the black forest loves his job, and needs no more motivation than loving wine, wealth, women, and song. But his motive means the difference between letting you run home naked after he mugs you and stalking you for months before blackmailing you into doing his dirty work like another villain would.
I think the problem is that since I don't really hold with the idea of moral systems -- "good" and "evil" -- but instead only with the idea of acceptable/not acceptable actions within a code of behavior I tend to see "unambiguously evil" in the same way you might see "unrepentingly naughty".
So I'm agreeing with you.
[blockquote=Lord Vreeg]And did I use the term 'Points of Light'? I won't even look right now, but if I did, friggin' shoot me. [/blockquote]You did not - I used it. I didn't know you disliked the term. Why so vehement a reaction, if you don't mind my asking? Not that I'm particularly attached to it as a term or anything.
Crystalstar tries for a lighter tone, but mostly in eliminating unpleasantness, rather than eliminating true nastiness. I guess this could be thought of as the same things a lot of settings, even dark ones, tend to "gloss over," like not worrying about hunger, disease, or stepping in dog poop. It's kind of the blockbuster fantasy movie version of fantasy, where all of the heroes are attractive, clean, and smell nice-- except for the ones that definitely don't, and there's a good reason for it.
Mare Eternus is shooting for the star wars/firefly/pirates of the carribean 1/etc tone. The best way to describe it I guess would be Swashbuckler Steampunk without as much punk. I want the morality gray, the heroes crazy, the adventures grand, and so forth.
Eschaton's on the darker end of historical fantasy, without being totally dark.
Aeolond is... I'm not sure. There is great darkness in the past and modern society stands on the precipice of continent-wide war. That's fairly dark. However there are many beacons of hope, such as the great northern crusade as well as the union of the Lowlands and Sutlands (which teetered on the brink of war)...
For players, there are taverns full of whores, the wilds teem with unnatural horrors and the gods meddle in the affairs of the brave...
So... Probably more dark than light?
Part of the appeal for me of darker worlds is that my real life is pretty cushy and danger-free. People like to play anti-heroes and rogues because they don't get to behave amorally (or immorally) in real life without consequences (hence the appeal of the Grand Theft Auto games...); I think a similar dynamic is operating in dark worlds, where we experience the unpleasant or horrifying ("dark") as pleasurable through the lens of game-playing or fiction. I remember talking with Silvercat about this once (if I recall, he said something about the unpleasant always being unpleasant for him - fair enough!).
Quote from: SteerpikePart of the appeal for me of darker worlds is that my real life is pretty cushy and danger-free.
Me too. Or at least it would be, if people didn't keep telling me it wasn't.
Quote from: SteerpikePeople like to play anti-heroes and rogues because they don't get to behave amorally (or immorally) in real life without consequences (hence the appeal of the Grand Theft Auto games...)
I agree. Perhaps people also play heroes and straight-arrows for similar reasons: Real Life is gray, so sometimes being good doesn't work out. And you can apply the same logic to playing powerful figures, good or bad.
I guess, though, I see more fun in playing against the rules of the world, not being good or evil but being contrary to their system. It's too easy to be "bad", there's more of a challenge in being "annoying".
Quote from: SteerpikeI think a similar dynamic is operating in dark worlds, where we experience the unpleasant or horrifying ("dark") as pleasurable through the lens of game-playing or fiction. I remember talking with Silvercat about this once (if I recall, he said something about the unpleasant always being unpleasant for him - fair enough!).
Imagine a nearly-sane form of paranoia.
It's probably not that good, but near enough.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfFor players, there are taverns full of whores,
Does that really count toward a more grim tone, if looked from the point of view of player characters? Maybe if the the PCs are moralists - or if they
are the whores in question...
Beej---Don't confuse a single continuum for a full description of morality. We were specifically talking about a single continuum out of many, literally dark vs light, and the other cultural and emotional makeups that go into a more complicated morality overview were specifically avoided so as to avoid this conversation devolving into the pedantic.
(which I seem to do anyways.)
By the way, 'Gritty' is NOT a tone. It is more of a mood created by tone.
Let me throw out another continuum that is tonal and that we have danced around, one that is basal in the creation of moods like 'gritty'.
Heroic vs realistic.
Heroic in this sense deals with a clear differenctiation between the adventurer class and the regular folks, a mythic setting feel, such as the Helladic epics or the Norse. Heroes can be larger than life and the rules of the world bend around them. Wuxia would also fall into this catagory.
Settings with High HP, Epic levels, etc, would obviously fall into this.
The Star Wars mythos fits here too, I think.
Also, the resolutions demanded by the setting of the players in an epic setting are normally large, fairy-tale, straightforward. Go into the mystic Orchard owned by the medusaic Gretas, and steal a bronze apple, that kind of thing.
The Realistic end of the continuum deals with more mundane issues and makes the players less 'special'. The world is not built around the actions of the PC's, and if the PCs are to affect the world, they will spend a long time playing before this happens. People get wounded and sometimes scarred in realistic games, and issues of food, economics, education and the poor are involved in a realistic game.
this is part of 'gritty', but can be very hard to wrap a head around. Celtricia has an epic history and some epic storylines, but certainly deals with minutia. Players affect the world, but it sometimes takes a large amount of gasme play. and players bleed and fear damage. I wonder how other creators view this continuum?
Quote from: LordVreegBeej---Don't confuse a single continuum for a full description of morality. We were specifically talking about a single continuum out of many, literally dark vs light, and the other cultural and emotional makeups that go into a more complicated morality overview were specifically avoided so as to avoid this conversation devolving into the pedantic.
(which I seem to do anyways.)
By the way, 'Gritty' is NOT a tone. It is more of a mood created by tone.
I don't know that I'm confusing dark vs. light with the spectrum of morality so much as saying the distinction between dark and light takes so much into account that it's almost meaningless... two dark settings or two light settings can be as different from one another as night and day. A setting where a tiny frontier town fights encroaching wilderness with horrible things in the forest is very different from a thriving capital city rife with corruption, greed, and class struggle. Bright optimistic settings run the gamut too... shining knights fighting dragons/dark lords or anime heroines fighting war with the power of love or a utopian post-scarcity alliance making first contact with newly discovered species. I went on the morality and human nature tangent because it's the aspect my setting will focus on. Sure there are some pretty consistently dark bits... my combat system is written so bad things happen when people fight... but even that acts as encouragement for diplomatic solutions, and may actually lighten some parts of the game in a roundabout way.
Saying a setting is dark or light first of all seems a very limited view of things, second can be easily contested (with the exceptions of the "anime heroines" naivety, any of these can be flipped dark to light or the reverse), and thirdly doesn't take into account variability over time. My setting has lots of stuff in it, and how dark or light it gets depends largely on where and how closely the players choose to look, and how they choose to act on what they see. I like variety. My setting is neither dark nor light, but that doesn't make it a uniform grey. I see it instead as being colorful.
Beej, that's the artist in you.
But the statistician in me looks for continuums. Saying it is light or dark is PURPOSELY limited, to avoid errors. I understand it is limited, but that is purposeful so that when we all have a conversation about our settings, we are all talking about the same thing.
Another tonal modifier can be the size and spread of civilization. A thriving nation filled with cities is going to feel alot different than a frontier world on the edge of lawless lands.
Mare Eternus uses this aspect to push its frontier feel. There are sprawling cities yes but there is so much open and underexplored/unexplored space full of promises of wealth and danger. If anything the cities help reinforce this point since once PCs step outside they can quickly feel the aloneness as it contrasts with the bustling cities.
Quote from: NomadicAnother tonal modifier can be the size and spread of civilization. A thriving nation filled with cities is going to feel alot different than a frontier world on the edge of lawless lands.
Mare Eternus uses this aspect to push its frontier feel. There are sprawling cities yes but there is so much open and underexplored/unexplored space full of promises of wealth and danger. If anything the cities help reinforce this point since once PCs step outside they can quickly feel the aloneness as it contrasts with the bustling cities.
In effect you are describing the Points of Light approach - beacons of light separated by wilderness that is as vast as it is dangerous.
Sometimes I have an over-all tone in mind. Usually I do not.
I think Island City started as I want to use the mechanics and proper nouns of White Wolf's original World of Darkness setting but without such an oppressive atmosphere. You could run it dark, if that's the bent of your nature and there are dark elements because it's sort of fairy tale/ mythic, but the emphasis is on hope, wonder, whimsy, and awe.
Someone asked about Tone. It was a Friday Forum Philosophy topic.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfIn effect you are describing the Points of Light approach - beacons of light separated by wilderness that is as vast as it is dangerous.
If we're already in this topic, I might address this point. What I like about "points of light" approach is the fact that it mixes up a stable civilisation with vast and unknown wilderness. It's the approach I'm taking in Olam - world is very young and while due to magic, Gods, and technology (progress of which is sped up by gods of wisdom and intellect) sapient creatures can spread all around the world, they didn't have time to tame most of the world - so between the cities you will find rare roads surrounded by wilderness on all sides.
What I don't like about that approach is how it treats the "monster" races. Paraphrasing the 4e PHB, the civilisations of those races are not points of light because those people are evil. WHY? Why are they considered worse than humans? Because they look ugly to humans? Ah, because they're evil, you're saying? But you're the god-darn creator of this world, you MADE them evil! That's the approach I'm NOT taking: the so-called monsters are just as civilised as humans, as long as they're sapient and natural.
And as for the tone itself... I feel like I said too much on the shoutbox. In short: I'm sick of grimdark settings, because I have literally nobody to like there. Those places are so full of bile, they're literally impossible to live in without killing yourself.
I can sum up the tone of my every world with four sentences.
The better ages of the world have passed. We should not say that it is in decline. But there are beauties that cannot be restored, and promises that cannot be kept even by the gods.
Tomorrow will not be constrained by today's definitions.
Quote from: NomadicMare Eternus is shooting for the star wars/firefly/pirates of the carribean 1/etc tone. The best way to describe it I guess would be Swashbuckler Steampunk without as much punk. I want the morality gray, the heroes crazy, the adventures grand, and so forth.
worth a look again. This needs to be on the outside of the mare Eternus box set. It'll sell a million.
Quote from: LordVreeg box set ... It'll sell a million.
Does not compute. Not in this day and age.
Put it on the cover of the PDF. ;)
Quote from: sparkletwistQuote from: LordVreeg box set ... It'll sell a million.
Does not compute. Not in this day and age.
Put it on the cover of the PDF. ;)
Trying to make the man some money here, lady.
(you are talking about a whole 'nother important subject..)