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[ic=Philosophy Archive]
Week 1 - The Cost of Magic (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?70759)
Week 2 - Villains (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?71232)
Week 3 - Genre Conventions (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?71697)
Week 4 - Design Method (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?72101)
Week 5 - Characters (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?72445)
Week 6 - Theme (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?72962)
Week 7 - PCs in the World (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73123)
Week 8 - Politics (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73352)
Week 9 - Government (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73505.last)
Week 10 - Alignment (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73709.last)
Week 11 - Magic Items (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?73886.last)
Week 12 - Philosophy (http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?74200.last)
Week 13 - Races & Ethnicity (http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?74353.0)
Week 14 - Tone (http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?74586.0)
Week 15 - Content (http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?74876.last)
Week 16 - War & Crime (http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?75008.last)
Week 17 - Names and Language (http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?75220.last)
[/ic]
Names and Language
Do you create made-up languages for your setting? How about names? Do you pick at random, or put lots of thought into it? Is it better to go for nonsensical names, or do you use pig latin, alliteration, or wordplay, or do you prefer standard names? Would you rather use classical fantasy names like "The Haunted Woods" or the Harkannis Forest? Do you stray away from overly dramatical naming?
Full languages? No, I leave such things for limes named tom. Words? Yes. Honestly though I couldn't tell you my method for coming up with names as I don't know what it is myself. I just stop for a second and think and a name will float to the top of my brain and I'll scoop it out and paste it in.
I think names are incredibly important in any work of fiction, but I don't limit myself to just one method.
I'll use english words (often obscure ones) that evoke the nature of the thing I want to name - a race called the Umbral Get, meaning, loosely, shadow-children
I'll merge english words into "kennings" - Growlside being a sector on the side of a city inhabited by lycanthropes, who are likely to communicate using growls
I'll create names based on modifications or "fantasisations" of existing words - I named a race of cat-people the Faelen, as a corruption of the word feline
And I'll just plain make things up that sound good - for example the god-queen known as the Mahathelur, or a nation called Alruyev
However, I think that regardless of how you arrive at the name, it is still a huge part of whatever you're describing. Imagine if you had a race of, essentially, orcs - big, brutal, warrior humanoids - but you called them something like shimmerfolk. Although all the characteristics of the shimmerfolk might be orcish, every time you refer to them you will be using the word shimmerfolk, which evokes a completely different kind of being. Unless that kind of dissonance is what you're aiming for (and even if it was, that begs the question of what purpose would the dissonance serve), your name is detracting from your creation.
Even an entirely invented word can have evocative connotations. For example, I mentioned the Mahathelur.. now I came up with that name off the top of my head, but even at a quick glance I can see one obvious connection between what the name could represent and what I did use it to represent: the name starts with the syllables "maha," just like the Indian royal title maharaja. The Mahathelur is a god-queen, so having a "royal" sounding name helps evoke that status.
Good points Kindling.
Unrelated to the topic, but your post, the first time you wrote Mahathelur, I saw it with that connotation.
Maha means "great" and raja means "king" (or prince). I.e. basically a high king. In the same vein Mahatma Gandhi's title means "great soul." (atma is soul).
Maybe the Mahathelur was something of a "concrete" example to use, as there is a direct parallel to be drawn in terms of meaning with a real-world word.
For something more abstract and phonetic maybe the name orc would be a good example. It's a short, sharp, guttural word; something primal. It could easily be an involuntary sound, the sort of gasp someone might make when punched in the stomach. As such, it strikes me as a perfect name for the kind of creature it represents.
Naming is something I struggle with a lot. In fact, I often find that I am being held back from developing my setting further because I can't come up with names for places and people.
I've begun to use the Everchanging Book of Names pretty religiously. Some of the names of more notable bits from my settings such as "Haveneast" are random names that just pop into my head.
Names halt me up all the time. There are just some sounds I don't like and so I tend to have a limited phonetic vocabulary.
In regards to Kindlings response I would say my style is more abstract. I stick with a name because it sounds appropriate. I might find later on that it sounded appropriate because of a meaning I hadn't consciously noticed.
For example the Maeri from Mare Eternus. I stuck with the name since it evokes concepts of grace, water, purity, etc. I wanted the Maeri to come across as an enlightened race (like elves but without the magic). Only after did I notice that it sounds almost Native American and that adds a deeper meaning to what they are (a meaning I like).
while I think crafting functioning languages is a bit beyond and above, I do like to make it seem like there are. For example, I'll divide a setting into different cultural areas (if that's applicable), races, religions, what ever really. And to each one I assign maybe a dozen or so common sounds and letters as well as excluding a dozen or so sounds and letters. I'll also decide how many syllables (a range) for each language.
For example, I'll use the Vorr from Arga (a wild, beastial warrior race).
Yes- V, Kh, rr, Rh, o, i, ish, D, P, u
No- Ch, Th, ae, y, M, N, L, S,
Then I'll keep it between, let's say, 1 and 3 syllabels per word. So through that you have gutteral, savage sounding names, while avoiding some softer, more eloquent sounds. But that's just me, and it's a rough system.
I mostly do pretty much what Leetz has described. I have modeled my languages basic "sound collections" on real-world languages, for the most part.
I will occasionally assign specific meaning to certain words or word parts, also, and keep those meanings constant from one word to the next within a language. I did this especially with a mini internal project I started five years ago or so, where I was writing out example names in all my languages, along with pronunciations and meanings. Somewhere around here, I've got a glossary with the meanings of every syllable of elven languages I've ever written up (though this is not as impressive as it sounds; I've not used that many syllables).
Also, and this is really important, I actually say everything out loud, in various tempos and patterns of accented syllables. Seriously. I read all these nonsense words over and over, and if they don't blend in aurally with the rest of the language they belong to, or if they start sounding stupid*, I change them.
This way, I don't inadvertently name a city Dhaugba Wells or something.
[spoiler=*]This gives me an automatic advantage over plenty of real English words. Such as vehicle.
Vehicle. Vehicle, vehicle, vehicle.
Vehicle. UGH[/spoiler]
I've never understood how anyone can just make up words and use them in a setting, especially on a grand scale. It not only dilutes the importance of language but deprives the world builder of a valuable tool to showcase a world's history through the use of language.
Example, a ruin called Legno Vecchio is found near the village of Oddbjorn in the Forsøg Vale.
Look at what that alone tells us. The ruin is in no way related (at least linguistically) to the village nor to the people who have named the vale. This of course is a simplistic example but when done on a much larger scale, you can imply so much of a world's history; who owned what, who lived where, etc.
Quote from: Elemental_ElfI've never understood how anyone can just make up words and use them in a setting...
The alternative is to use real words. Which, if the person couldn't figure out don't go together made up, they might make the same mistake on. And if they do catch on using real words can they choose the correct words to sound how they'd like. Or do those words even exist?
And if you stick to words you know well enough not to make mistakes on your setting might get boring as every place name starts to sound too similar for vastly disparate cultures.
Given all that I think builders can be forgiven for deciding to just do what they feel like.
Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawThe alternative is to use real words. Which, if the person couldn't figure out don't go together made up, they might make the same mistake on. And if they do catch on using real words can they choose the correct words to sound how they'd like. Or do those words even exist?
And if you stick to words you know well enough not to make mistakes on your setting might get boring as every place name starts to sound too similar for vastly disparate cultures.
Given all that I think builders can be forgiven for deciding to just do what they feel like.
I wasn't referring to using an entire language and weaving it in, just using a given language ad hoc to exemplify that there ARE linguistic differences. If all the names you use are just made up, then you are much more likely to make everything in your setting feel the similar than if you started out with a firm linguistic base.
Heck, you don't even need to start out with a whole language (real or otherwise), just some basic principles that showcase the linguistic differences. For example, the Elven language does not use hard consonants (eg. something like 'Omathala') then that would contrast quite nicely with the Dwarven language that favors strong consonants and consonant-vowel pairings (e.g. something like Gakido), both of which would contrast with the human tongue that possesses a small number of consonants (like many Polynesian languages) and thus tends to use a lot of vowels and repeating consonants (e.g. heluhelu elikolani).
If you stick to your basic principles, then your world will feel so much more alive and real than if you had just made up words ad hoc.
I'd agree there. My named may be made up on the spot but when making names for one culture/language/etc I try to give them the same feel.
I go to great lengths to have my names sound interesting. I'm not always succesful in this, and you'll see the names I use in my setting change once in a while. I have recently begun using actual words; such as cities called Arch or the Sprawls, or a nation called Throne. So although we often try to use completely fictional names, the real world actually often uses old words for naming. (Buenos Aires or Los Angeles for example)
I also try to stay away from overly dramatic fantastical names such as the Demon Mountains, the Woods of Fear and such. Who calls things that??
I also love names which convey a sense of mystery or oddness.
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowWho calls things that?
I see you've never met the Artificer King Olaf Beardaxe of Darkmountain, Lord of the Alefist Dwarves of the Copper Hills and wielder of Orc Ender the axe of Deep Cavern. He brews a mean Fireburn Ale.
QuoteI also try to stay away from overly dramatic fantastical names such as the Demon Mountains, the Woods of Fear and such. Who calls things that??
I also love names which convey a sense of mystery or oddness.
It depends on what you're creating. In creating Echoes of Dreams, my surreal fairytale setting, I did call something the Enchanted Forest.
Cliche names can also be good when you feel up for some over the top silly rp.
My Cragstalker Barbarian, Urlag Deathkiller, leaps upon the back of the vile netherwurm and hacks away at its doomorbs with his mighty bloodaxe!
Celtricia's age dictates a certain number of communication modalities. It also infers a level of intermixing and flux, in that a language changes in time, and while sometimes there may be a point where a language is differentiated from it's parent, most languages are nothing like they were centuries before.
I use some 20-30 languages regularly. [spoiler=list] Sauroid
Omwo~
Marcher, Silverwood, XI~U Omwo~, Delvan
Suprosian
Magetongue
Klaxik
Underearth, Red Hobbit, Gastax
Odop (law)
Neblerian, Hendac, Modron, Devilkin, harnic (Orbi)
Arcanic
Hobyt
Brightish
Vox (Southern Common)
Ambrellian, Omnian
Anarch (Chaos)
Jubilexian, Grazztian, Venolvian
Ancient Venolvian,
Westic (north common)
Horse trader, Violic, Orcash
Red Pass orcash, Zjymanese
Omnian
[/spoiler]
Sometimes I use some real life equivs to remind myself of a sound, Like Harnic's Grekk background and Venovlian's Latin-esque feel and structure. Omwo~ uses a letter trasnposition scheme in some words to create a more sybilant sound, and Klaxik uses the same to create a harsher sound. Klaxik's being constantly in heat, their terminology has dozens of specific derivations of their level of horniness. [spoiler=]Fuquars'ti vort Fucquas si sula sgum cquennaqua klaxika/That harvest was harder to take in than a Cquennaqua (specific level of demanding sexually aroused) female Dwarf[/spoiler] So vernacular has much to do with language as well.
Slang and words taken from one language to another, I use lots of it. A lot of long time readers know that Knights of the Armor or Trade use certain terms, and many other groups do as well. Slang and seting-specific verbage create versimilitude. Omwo~ for good night is Ho~io~iu (Hooeeooeeoo), and once my players stated using this in real life, I knew I had it made.
These are from earlier posts, to illustrate the point.
[ic=]'Chell, Amigal', is the battlecry and all around oath-word for the knights. It is Klaxik, meaning "The Scales, my Friends!" [/ic]
[ic=]"
Going east, they saw, by the light of Eodl's lantern, that the corridor stretched about twenty feet east, and then sort of continued for another fifteen feet, before opening. But the last fifteen the walls were covered in some fabric. As Kiko and George led down the corridor, they were carefully eying the curtains. The fabric was old, and grayish. It seemed to have no patterns, just an old raggedy curtain.
Of course, they were spending so much time watching the edges of the fabric up in front of them to notice the trip plate one the floor. Kiko got a half syllable of warning out as the huge metal bolt ripped down the corridor from the southern curtain, zipping over her head, ripping through Tusnus' tabard, before impacting messily into the north wall.
'Chell and balance, that was a close one!!' said the Squire of the TradeGod as he pulled his tabard from it's impinged location. The metal bolt was almost a yard long.
Kiko pointed to the place where the shot originated. 'That is one big Crossbow.'[/ic]
[ic]From behind the carnage, wafted up the sound of music. Pharren was buttressing their efforts, and as he did, the squire of the TradeGod planted himself in front of George and Cucino, as the point of the triangle. 'Chell, thou Foul beast, Chell, Amigal!!', he roared as he bounced the silvered head of his heavy flail off the shoulder of the creature.
The thing screamed, it's wings furiously pumping and it's claws gashing at the newly healed flesh behind Tusnus' damaged armor.[/ic]
Oh yeah, my opinion is dependent on the style of my own setting of course. A fairytale or high fantasy setting would veritably depend on slighly cliché names.
I do not create entire languages for my settings. That, to me, seems like it would be too much work for not enough gain. Most of it would never really get used...at least not in any way that people would notice without you pointing it out to them. I mean no disrespect to anyone who would do it, though. I think it would be pretty cool, actually.
I try to draw names for my setting, especially Natu, from real-world languages that I think fit the feel of the setting pretty well. I take actual names of people, places, and things then use them or change them just a little bit before using them. While this system certainly isn't perfect, I feel it works well enough.
I also try to avoid overly dramatic naming as it doesn't usually feel right to me. While some villages living of the edge of a haunted forest may call it 'The Great Haunted Woodland of Very Bad Things Like Doom and Such', I feel that forest should also have a proper name.
While I am half Japanese, I can talk "house talk" I'm hot, I'm cold, I'm sick, I'm hungry, I'm tired, etc. - but I don't actually speak the language per se. I know lots of Japanese words, just enough to get me in trouble. I can count to 9,999, I know three ways to count (it depends on what your counting.) I know some geographic words - mountain = yama, river = kawa or gawa, kyo = city. That's about it, so I have to rely on an English to Japanese dictionary, online resources and every now again, a confirmation or correction by my mother (whose Japanese, born and raised).
However, I am doing my best to make as much in Kaidan use Japanese for titles, descriptions, people's names, specific items names. But I am truly discovering my lack of knowledge. For a while I had a noble lord named "Tanaka" until I discovered "tanaka" meant middle of a rice field, and a noble lord would not have anything to do with a rice field, that' a peasant fieldworkers name. That I find to be my biggest naming problem - knowing some Japanese, but getting things wrong just the same.
Lots of the words, I am just making up, making it sound Japanese. The island of Yonshu (which is a real Japanese word), the island the entire initial adventure module is based, was created as something sounding similar to "Honshu" which is the main island of Japan. I want to avoid naming provinces and cities after their real Japanese counterpart, rather words that "sound" similar. In some cases I discover I chose a real word, sometime I don't. For example there is such a place as Nagoya, Japan - its where the winter Olympics were held. I have a town called "Agoya" in Yonshu, but that's not a real Japanese word.
So I guess I am using both Japanese and pseudo-Japanese for the language of Kaidan.
Quote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME HORSEI've begun to use the Everchanging Book of Names pretty religiously.
Yeah, me too. Languages are really important if you're trying to create a consistent, full-fledged world; unfortunately, without some basic knowledge on the subject, one tends to make up words that are basically just modified English.
Since no one has posted this, I think you should all take a look at Mark Rosenfelder's site (www.zompist.com), which has some great tutorials about linguistics.
(BTW, I'm trying to develop a software for automatic world creation, and languages have their part too, so when I get there, I'll let you know ;) )
Not on topic, but, hello gnola14! Welcome to the site and congratulations on your first post :D
Thanks Kindling! Shame on me, though, for not having posted before (I became a member of CBG long time ago).
Wow, two years is a long warm up period. Hope we'll be seeing more of you now!
<offtopic>
Haha! That's true. I was quite active with my world (Messalan) at the time, so I looked up for a site where people could show their campaigns/worlds. My participation in the forum is directly related with my development of Messalan, so I guess you can see how stagnant the latter is :P
</offtopic>
Oh! Coming back on topic, I do create custom languages for my settings. As for now, I have more or less ten languagues in my world, all of them in different stages of development. Yeah, it's a laborious work, so I'm eager to find a nice piece of software that runs on Linux and create some nice pseudo-languages