This month, WotC announced a new direction for D&D. They aren't making a new edition or a new game (though they are making a GamaWorld rpg with random cards and a few D&D board games), but they are trying out a new way to attract and involve new players. They feel that the general consensus is that the game is difficult to pick up, especially if everyone at your table is new to it. I'm inclined to agree, though my group was largely unfamiliar with PnP RPGs when we first started playing 3E.
Now, I cannot link the article specifically, because it is a D&DInsider exclusive article. I'm sure eventually it will be publicly announced. But here's the general points, and the new product line:
WotC is creating the "Dungeons and Dragons Essentials" line, a product line of 10 books that they say will "form the core of the Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game experience moving forward". It seems to be designed to allow groups to take an incremental approach to learning the game. It also seems a bit more expensive, since each book is 20 bucks (color trade paperback). But the organization of the books does seem nice, and will allow groups to buy fewer books together.
First are the two base books. The "Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Roleplaying Game" is a new starter set, with ...
Quote... a player's book that uses a solitaire pick-a-path process to create a character, a Dungeon Master's book with basic 4th Edition game rules and a group adventure, a set of dice, a poster map, cardstock tokens for characters and monsters, and power cards.
The second book is the "Dungeons & Dragons Rules Compendium", which is something I might even pick up just for the simplicity of having a paperback book with all the rules in the game. They say it will be "presented in logical order", which would be nice; I find myself searching through the DMG and PHB for specific tables sometimes even with the simplicity of 4E.
Then there's going to be two player books, each with a different mixture of classes and races. One features more traditional races and classes, the other features less traditional ones. They will apparently also have new class builds, which will make old players consider picking them up (or at least paying for D&DI so they can get the compendium). There will also be a number of DM books, one with more adventures, maps, and advice, another with monsters and tokens for all the featured monsters (I hope the minions and standard monsters will have multiple tokens so encounter building is easier). They finish it off with more dungeon tiles and dice.
It seems interesting. If they can grow the player base, that will be good. They're also probably looking for a higher profit margin.
What do you all think?
(Sorry I'm sitting in my car waiting t go to my class so the best I can offer is a series of unconnected statements concerning my feelings on this topic).
I could write a 5 page paper about the pros and cons of 4E over 3.5 but I won't go into that.
From a layman's standpoint, 4E is too complicated. It robbed the simplicity of 3.5's class table and abilities and substituted in class powers that look suspiciously like algebra.
The problem with 4E, to be honest, it wants it's cake and eat it too. The system tried to appeal both to old gamers and to brand new ones and the product doesn't really thrill either.
IF WotC wanted new gamers it should have morphed D&D into something like the Dragon Age p&p - it's very simple, entertaining and has loads of room for expansion.
I'm very interested to see how WotC decides to change 4E. I hope it's for the better because outside of Star Wars my group has very much turned away from WotC products. Maybe this new direction will convince my players to give 4E another shot (because I like the system but they despise it).
P.S. This does sound like a huge money grab by WotC but Green Ronin is doing the same thing with Dragon Age. Each box costs $30 and contains all the info you need for 5 level chunks. So all 4 boxes (released over the course of a year) will run you $120 compared to the $90 of D&D or the $40-60 that most third party systems run.
BUT maybe going for a lower introductory price will spur on more sales. I know I've decided not to purchase books because $30 was a bit much. If these new books have the quality of the old 3.0 soft cover supplements, then I'd say these will probably be a hit.
See, my only complaint about 4E as a system is that too much is coming out too fast. I love the new power system, but I would have preferred something more modular that didn't require 20 pages per class. So I'm with you there. But, character building is simply selecting powers from what you like, and power choices are really only like 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, and 3 dailies once you're into paragon tier, so I don't find that too difficult.
It doesn't look like they're changing the system in anyway, just its presentation. The lower price point should help with new players, and I will like seeing softcover 20 dollar supplements instead of 35 dollar ones; I haven't bought a 4E splat-book at all, just the PHBs.
Hmm, on a slightly derailing note, how is the Dragon Age RPG?
And on a slightly more related note, it sounds like a good idea for new players (it's not like the old timers who can already handle the rules have to pick up all the new books). Does seem like an awful lot of books still though...
8 books instead of 3; yeah, it's a bit much. Costs more to get them all, but cheaper to get each individually.
Quote from: XeviatSee, my only complaint about 4E as a system is that too much is coming out too fast.
WotC wants to release a book a month... But let's face it, that mentality ruined 3.5. I'm glad to see they're shifting gears.
Quote from: XeviatI love the new power system, but I would have preferred something more modular that didn't require 20 pages per class. So I'm with you there. But, character building is simply selecting powers from what you like, and power choices are really only like 2 at-wills, 3 encounters, and 3 dailies once you're into paragon tier, so I don't find that too difficult.
Oh what I meant was that each power has variables included in it (i.e. 'Hit: 3W + Dex damage'). To most people that looks like middle school math and it alienates them. I don't really have a problem with the Power System as a whole, I actually like it but, it does make the class section kind of a dull read, i.e. just a bunch of listed powers (which alienates casual fans).
Quote from: XeviatIt doesn't look like they're changing the system in anyway, just its presentation. The lower price point should help with new players, and I will like seeing softcover 20 dollar supplements instead of 35 dollar ones; I haven't bought a 4E splat-book at all, just the PHBs.
Well I'd be happy to see some redesign on the presentation. Hopefully they'll spruse it up a bit and give it some life.
Also, I'm a bit shocked you haven't purchased more books, given how you are a resident supporter of the system. Perhaps that in and of itself, is an indictment to WotC's business model.
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowHmm, on a slightly derailing note, how is the Dragon Age RPG?
[spoiler=Answer]Very, very simple. Base line, You use 3d6 to hit a target DC. All damage uses d6's. In fact all you need are three 6-sided dice, with one of them being a different color. The different color die (called your Dragon Die) represents how well you succeeded/failed (mostly it's for guiding your roleplaying). Further, if you are attacking and 2 of your dice come up with the same number, then you gain a number of stunt points equal to the number on your Dragon Die (stunt points are essentially critical hits that allow you to do cool stuff like push the target back, do extra damage, disarm, etc.). The game also has a basic skills system that feels like D&D. Further, the classes are very easy with a handful of cool powers (more will come as supplements are released). Your race also dictates which classes you can choose (no Dwarf Mages!) and gives you some cool bonuses.
All in all, I enjoy it very much. [/spoiler]
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowAnd on a slightly more related note, it sounds like a good idea for new players (it's not like the old timers who can already handle the rules have to pick up all the new books). Does seem like an awful lot of books still though...
I think the trend is for less up front cost, more long term cost.
Quote from: XeviatWotC is creating the "Dungeons and Dragons Essentials" line, a product line of 10 books that they say will "form the core of the Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game experience moving forward".
I will never buy another WoTC product. Seriously. F them man. Cheap products.
EDIT: On second thought the dungeon tiles are well worth the money.
Quote from: SarisaI will never buy another WoTC product. Seriously. F them man. Cheap products.
EDIT: On second thought the dungeon tiles are well worth the money.
Cheap? How?
I'm sorry, but ten books as a core is ridiculous. Core, for me, are the books I lug to my sessions every time. Ten of those is simply insane.
Quote from: Stargate525I'm sorry, but ten books as a core is ridiculous. Core, for me, are the books I lug to my sessions every time. Ten of those is simply insane.
They'll be tiny little books, you could probably punch 3 holes in them and keep them in a binder. :)
I have absolutely 0 experience with 4E so far, so I can't really comment on the rules side of things, but I have to say this seems to me to just be a moneymaking scheme.
They may have a fair point about the game being hard to pick up for new players, but then again many of the main precepts of pen and paper RPGs are hard to pick up in themselves. If they really wanted a newbie-friendly game they would publish something very rules-lite, a separate line from DnD (although possibly containing some of the ideas of DnD so people could "progress" from one to the other) as paring DnD down and stripping out the mass of core mechanics that have been ingrained over the years until it was truly newbie-friendly would essentially make it an altogether different game - at least in terms of crunch - in any case.
So, I think the main objective with this move is probably "hey, we can sell ten core books instead of 3" but that may just be my cynicism talking...
It's only 8 books, not ten. It's 10 products, but one is dungeon tiles and one is dice. Also, most of the products come with "extras", like maps, monster tokens, and that sort of thing.
The starter box set is rules-lite, though.
It is definitely "sell more for less". It's good calculus.
The Monster Vault (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/244650000)- New Monster Manual filled with Iconic Monsters. 256-page book of monsters
Player Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/247510000) - Designed for the cleric, the druid, the paladin, the ranger, and the warlock. 352 Page Count
Player Essentials: Heroes of the Fallen Lands (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/247520000) - the cleric, the fighter, the ranger, the rogue, and the wizard. 352 Page Count
Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Roleplaying Game (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/244660000) - Designed for 1'"5 players, this boxed game contains everything needed to start playing the Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Roleplaying Game. 32-page book for players, 64-page book for Dungeon Masters
Dungeon Master's Kit (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/244640000) - This deluxe box contains rules and advice to help Dungeon Masters run games for adventurers of levels 1'"30. 256-page book of rules and advice for Dungeon Masters
wow, 1 player can play the D&DFRG? Sweet!
Quote from: Xeviatwow, 1 player can play the D&DFRG? Sweet!
Yeah I thought that was pretty weird but, it makes a whole lot of sense if you're looking to expand the market. Right now my group is down to 3 people (including me) and I think that's the general truth. It's hard to get 5 adults to get together on a weekly basis BUT 2 or 3? That's much, much easier.
Yeah. I understood why 4E started with the base assumption of 5 players and 1 DM, but that doesn't really work for home games. Not for adults who don't have 9-5 mon-fri jobs.
Quote from: XeviatYeah. I understood why 4E started with the base assumption of 5 players and 1 DM, but that doesn't really work for home games. Not for adults who don't have 9-5 mon-fri jobs.
Pretty much. I suppose the old market of D&D was composed of kids/teens, college goers and part timers who live off the wealth of others.
So I think D&D tapped the latter two markets pretty hard and kids aren't the best group to peg your future on (does any one remember the Pokemon TCG?). So the logical conclusion is that D&D must broaden the base to include other types of people, such as families, 9-5 workers, Old People and people who want to play via the magic of the web. The one thing all of these groups have in common is that they require a decrease in the number of assumed players.
My group and I are trying to pin down what it is about 4E we don't like. It's not a gameplay thing (though we think having a stack of power cards actually does the opposite of giving you more options because it seems to lock people into their powers rather than making them think "outside of the box"). We think it's a flavor thing, that the classes seem bland and boring, since you have to go read through the "mathy" powers to get the class's flavor.
I don't know.
Quote from: XeviatMy group and I are trying to pin down what it is about 4E we don't like. It's not a gameplay thing (though we think having a stack of power cards actually does the opposite of giving you more options because it seems to lock people into their powers rather than making them think "outside of the box"). We think it's a flavor thing, that the classes seem bland and boring, since you have to go read through the "mathy" powers to get the class's flavor.
I don't know.
d20 Modern and Star Wars Saga have the same problem - being able to choose your class powers from a small list instantly feels more constrained than just being given a class power. Add that to the math-y wording of the powers and the lack of a decent flavor description for each class and you wind up with something that's fairly dull. Plus, the Magic items look like Powers, so their's no relief!
The sad thing is that 4E is the perfect system for DM's. It's easy, clear, painless and fun... So just as 3.5 was a player's system, 4E is a DM's system. So does this mean 5E will be perfect... Or a player's system?
Quote from: E_ESo does this mean 5E will be perfect... Or a player's system?
At the top of the post says there aren't going to be new editions? Dunno if that'll last.
Now, I liked the modularity of 3.5 (from what I've seen), but I think 4e has a much better layout and overall design.
Quote from: KindlingI have absolutely 0 experience with 4E so far, so I can't really comment on the rules side of things, but I have to say this seems to me to just be a moneymaking scheme.
I haven't played it either, but for the reviews I've read I think that you're probably right.
Quote from: KindlingThey may have a fair point about the game being hard to pick up for new players[...]. If they really wanted a newbie-friendly game they would publish something very rules-lite[...]
Completely agree. I think that a FUDGE-like system would be nice as an introduction, encouraging roleplaying rather than (stats) power-gaming...on a second thought, that's probably what they want, because the latter is probably more appealing to those with a trading card background.
Quote from: KindlingSo, I think the main objective with this move is probably "hey, we can sell ten core books instead of 3" but that may just be my cynicism talking...
In that case there's another cynic seconding your thoughts :D.
Number of players in my gaming group - 5, and 1 DM, but we switch DM roles every three or four sessions, depending if the current DM has a short campaign that lasts longer than that.
Regarding 4e (not my game) - consider I won a mapping contest where one of the prizes was the 4e Gift Set, and I chose something else, thus I wouldn't play it if you gave me the game for free, which was essentially what I would have got in winning that past contest.
Regarding the number of books for WotC anything - Paizo Pathfinder RPG, total number of books since its inception is two - Core Rulebook and Bestiary. Next August there will be the Advanced Players Guide and probably expectations of another Bestiary in the fall - that's two books a year. Where Paizo churns up material, that WotC doesn't, to me is the most important - Paizo cranks out settings, adventures and adventure paths (mini-campaigns.)
Also, though, since I am creating commercial 3pp game settings for Pathfinder RPG, its just better to stay in that rules set - keeps me sharp and knowledgeable when creating published settings. "Write what you know" as they say.
My 2 cents.
GPa
Did 4.0 get rid of this problem? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards
Also, that's a pretty nifty money-making grab; wish I had thought of that.
I've also departed from WOTC stuff, except for what I've already got, and that's d20M and ADnD. Didn't care much for 3.5, and didn't bother with 4 because nobody I knew wanted to switch out. This might change their minds, however.
M.
Quote from: Stargate525I'm sorry, but ten books as a core is ridiculous. Core, for me, are the books I lug to my sessions every time. Ten of those is simply insane.
PHB, MM, DMG, XPH, PHB2, Dragon Magic, and ComPsi are the books I usualy bring to a game group. Maybe switch out the last three for other books depending on who is running.
Quote from: CheomeshDid 4.0 get rid of this problem? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards
Yes. They very much got rid of that. Now everyone gets awesome powers, and Warrior damage is very much on par with Caster damage. Possibly higher for single target.
Quote from: CheomeshDid 4.0 get rid of this problem? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizard
Yes that was eliminated via, as Xeviant said, forcing each class to use the same power/spell mechanic. Now everyone is fairly linear.
However, there was much more emphasis put on the class' role in the party, so the Wizard will be great at AoE spells, while the fighter will be better at hitting a single enemy in melee.
Ok, this is completely unrelated, but how did Xeviat get his signature inside his quote box?
Quote from: LlumOk, this is completely unrelated, but how did Xeviat get his signature inside his quote box?
I don't know ... I think I didn't close the quote box.
How ever you may feel about 4E, I know I am buying the starter kit, if for no other reason than to have the box cover:
(http://www.wizards.com/global/images/dnd_products_dndacc_244660000_pic3_en.jpg)
EE, let us know what you think.
Me, I'm actually going backwards; the next time I use DnD, if I ever do, it will be 2.5.
M.
A quick question...
Ad&d, is that still around or is this all D&D? I've been out of gaming for 10 years now....
Quote from: DungeonMasterA quick question...
Ad&d, is that still around or is this all D&D? I've been out of gaming for 10 years now....
Once 3.0 Came out, WotC eliminated the distinction between D&D and AD&D and just called their version of the game D&D. This has held true since then.
Quote from: Elemental_Elf Quote from: SarisaI will never buy another WoTC product. Seriously. F them man. Cheap products.
EDIT: On second thought the dungeon tiles are well worth the money.
Cheap? How?
If you have a copy of any of the core 4th ed. D&D books, take one out, rub your thumb across some of the ink.
Quote from: SarisaQuote from: Elemental_Elf Quote from: SarisaI will never buy another WoTC product. Seriously. F them man. Cheap products.
EDIT: On second thought the dungeon tiles are well worth the money.
Cheap? How?
If you have a copy of any of the core 4th ed. D&D books, take one out, rub your thumb across some of the ink.
I heard some of the initial print run of the core books had that problem but later books did not. :(
Quote from: SarisaQuote from: Elemental_Elf Quote from: SarisaI will never buy another WoTC product. Seriously. F them man. Cheap products.
EDIT: On second thought the dungeon tiles are well worth the money.
Cheap? How?
If you have a copy of any of the core 4th ed. D&D books, take one out, rub your thumb across some of the ink.
That may be, but have you seen the 3.5 core stuff? Very high quality books. Solid hard covers with excellent cover art and high quality paper and ink for the pages.
Quote from: NomadicQuote from: SarisaQuote from: Elemental_Elf Quote from: SarisaI will never buy another WoTC product. Seriously. F them man. Cheap products.
EDIT: On second thought the dungeon tiles are well worth the money.
Cheap? How?
If you have a copy of any of the core 4th ed. D&D books, take one out, rub your thumb across some of the ink.
That may be, but have you seen the 3.5 core stuff? Very high quality books. Solid hard covers with excellent cover art and high quality paper and ink for the pages.
I won't deny that at all.