First off, I just wanted to say "Hi" since this is my first time posting on these boards, but I've been a longtime fan and love to read everyone's settings.
Now, to cut to the chase...
I have a setting that I've been developing for several years now thats based off a sort of Jungian dreamscape. Its one of my prime enjoyments because I have to purposely think outside of the regular scheme of how things might work, which is surprisingly tough. One of my latest thoughts regarded the "gods" of the setting, which are essentially the physical manifestation of cultural memes. In other words, they're created from humanoid kind's collective thoughts. It would take an immense amount of collective thought to give a meme a physical appearance (to prevent there from being millions of memes for every small group of like-minded thinkers), but then I wondered: why should this stop at memes?
So from there I've been contemplating the repercussions of allowing whatever is collectively believed to be, well, made true over time (like the gods). For instance, because the vast majority of sailers believe in the tales of the kraken, the kraken thus becomes a real thing.
I've been giving this some thought and I don't think I can work it all out on my own without creating some guidelines... I understand that things can get crazy real fast with this idea, but it nonetheless interests me.
So I ask, would anyone be willing to help me with this? Give some scenarios where this might be interesting, or where it might get crazy? This isn't set in stone, but I see it as a sort of creative thought exercise for myself. What do you guys and gals think?
Here's some of my thought on what this law would impact. I would love for anyone to contribute to or dispute the list:
- Almost everybody knows this law exists. The exception would be particularly isolated areas or uneducated folks, but that doesn't stop them from benefitting from this law without knowing it. Even the gods understand that they are simply the result of collective thought.
- It takes a long, long time for things to gain physicality through collected thought, but can be accelerated depending on how vast the amount of people who believe it an their conviction. Likewise, those created things don't simply vanish or appear overnight; it can take a lifetime for a collected thought (I should really think of a better name for these...) to fade away, even long after everyone's forgotten about them, thus giving them a chance to reconnect to something and make an attempt at renown once more (essentially, these are the demons of my world).
- The unknown would feed the unknown: A "forgotten" relic may have once been leaking its power away when it was wiped away from history, but should a scrap of evidence of its existence pop up, it could spawn rumors that would fuel its power (albeit slowly) despite the actual truth behind them. Those who shroud themselves in mystery would be arming themselves with the power of rumors and assumptions.
- The changes brought about by collected thought are absolute: this remains as one of my most controversial elements of the law, but I can't see it working any other way. Naturally, there are some fundamental flaws with this method of thought: If the Elves of a particular land believe that by burning a sacred animal every day at noon they'll extend the hours of daylight, then would the neighboring lands notice the transition in day time? Likewise, if one area firmly believes a certain artifact has the power to slay any living creature with a single blow and another area firmly believes that the same artifact is a tool of pure peace and healing, which is true? Would the larger group of collected thought take precedence over the other (this would make sense for the Elf day time example, since it would be argued that everyone else believes the sun sets at such an hour and the moon rises at another)? Would their collected thoughts spawn two identical but different artifacts?
- Songs, tales, stories, etc. can be both deadly and rewarding: A new type of warfare would arise, characterized by spreading slanderous tales about an enemy country. Propaganda would be an incredibly useful tool. Politics would be as dangerous a profession as adventuring: A single slanderous lie could spell devastation to a family's history or honor if allowed to spread and grow, and "assassins" could very well be outfitted with pens and parchment as opposed to knives and poisons. Granted, these would take years, sometimes decades, to set in, they could very well spell death to any reputation.
Tell me what you think!
Thanks for posting. Nice way to start.
[blockquote=The Weave]- Almost everybody knows this law exists. The exception would be particularly isolated areas or uneducated folks, but that doesn't stop them from benefitting from this law without knowing it. Even the gods understand that they are simply the result of collective thought.[/blockquote]
This part won't work. If real belief feeds this law, then subconsiously, the people of the world will know anything they are 'believing into existence' is false. If the Created Memetics are fed be belief, it has to be real belief, genuine belief. Your slanderous lie, etc, would be disbelieved or mistrusted, as would every song or statement.
There is also the isue of 'aware' memetics, people made more powerful by this belief. I would set this law up to be knowable by a select few of these people.
Quote from: The_Weave05The changes brought about by collected thought are absolute: this remains as one of my most controversial elements of the law, but I can't see it working any other way. Naturally, there are some fundamental flaws with this method of thought: If the Elves of a particular land believe that by burning a sacred animal every day at noon they'll extend the hours of daylight, then would the neighboring lands notice the transition in day time? Likewise, if one area firmly believes a certain artifact has the power to slay any living creature with a single blow and another area firmly believes that the same artifact is a tool of pure peace and healing, which is true? Would the larger group of collected thought take precedence over the other (this would make sense for the Elf day time example, since it would be argued that everyone else believes the sun sets at such an hour and the moon rises at another)? Would their collected thoughts spawn two identical but different artifacts?
Maybe the length of day becomes longer in the elf lands only while sunset and sunrise appear to remain synchronized with the rest of the world, and the artifact's power changes based on who uses it (or even the people that are there to witness it's use)?
Quote from: The_Weave05Songs, tales, stories, etc. can be both deadly and rewarding: A new type of warfare would arise, characterized by spreading slanderous tales about an enemy country. Propaganda would be an incredibly useful tool. Politics would be as dangerous a profession as adventuring: A single slanderous lie could spell devastation to a family's history or honor if allowed to spread and grow, and "assassins" could very well be outfitted with pens and parchment as opposed to knives and poisons. Granted, these would take years, sometimes decades, to set in, they could very well spell death to any reputation.
If everyone knows that belief can change things, I think they will refuse to believe anything that clashes with their interests or prejudices, and will readily believe anything that seems like a good thing in their eyes. Logic and reasoning will be meaningless, the most well-crafted of lies will fall on deaf ears if they do not present you with something that you'd
want to believe in. Likewise "obvious" truths will be lost in la-la-land while the masses embrace more pleasant superstitions.
After all, why would you want to believe that your government is full of corrupt tyrants, if you're aware that believing them to be competent and hard-working philanthropists can actually
make them be that?
Quote from: LordVreegThanks for posting. Nice way to start.
[blockquote=The Weave]- Almost everybody knows this law exists. The exception would be particularly isolated areas or uneducated folks, but that doesn't stop them from benefitting from this law without knowing it. Even the gods understand that they are simply the result of collective thought.[/blockquote]
This part won't work. If real belief feeds this law, then subconsiously, the people of the world will know anything they are 'believing into existence' is false. If the Created Memetics are fed be belief, it has to be real belief, genuine belief. Your slanderous lie, etc, would be disbelieved or mistrusted, as would every song or statement.
There is also the isue of 'aware' memetics, people made more powerful by this belief. I would set this law up to be knowable by a select few of these people.
Thanks for the help! I haven't given that point as much thought (embarrassingly, since its pretty important) and more or less threw it out to get a reaction. You're reply makes sense, so I'll adjust it accordingly.
I could easily limit the law to only those who have done extensive research or the more philosophically inclined, leaving everyone else to oftentimes pass it off as an unfounded theory... something similar to saying you might have actual photos of, say, UFOs; some would be fascinated, others would scoff it off as fake.
I wouldn't want to try and keep this law a secret in my world, but rather something people would be less willing to believe if told... which actually leads to a sort of paradox, now that I think about it: assuming there is a fairly large chunk of the world population who doesn't know or understand this law, would it then thus hold less power or even cease to "exist" as a law?
Maybe there should be some set of "immutable" things, impervious to the "collective current" of thought.
Also, I don't think it should be so easy to simply say "I do(n't) believe it." There needs to be some legitimate conviction behind it, not a simple knowledge of the laws' existence and a nod of the head. There needs to be a certain mental training to teach oneself to truly "believe," otherwise anyone who knew the law could only benefit from others beliefs upon them (I was hoping to spin the reasons behind magic and spells into this, so my goal is to have it be a legitimate tool to those who understand it... though it would be an ironic little twist of fate for those who gained knowledge of the law).
You'll have to forgive my own little conversations I have with myself, just a personal quirk I suppose.
Quote from: GhostmanMaybe the length of day becomes longer in the elf lands only while sunset and sunrise appear to remain synchronized with the rest of the world, and the artifact's power changes based on who uses it (or even the people that are there to witness it's use)?
That's a good possibility. It would be interesting to have a certain land have slower time than others, adding to the dreamlike nature of my world. I kind of like that.
Quote from: GhostmanIf everyone knows that belief can change things, I think they will refuse to believe anything that clashes with their interests or prejudices, and will readily believe anything that seems like a good thing in their eyes. Logic and reasoning will be meaningless, the most well-crafted of lies will fall on deaf ears if they do not present you with something that you'd want to believe in. Likewise "obvious" truths will be lost in la-la-land while the masses embrace more pleasant superstitions.
After all, why would you want to believe that your government is full of corrupt tyrants, if you're aware that believing them to be competent and hard-working philanthropists can actually make them be that?
I actually just responded to something very similar to this. Check out my above post for my potential solution.
I see your conundrum. Essentially you'd have made objective reality answerable to a kind of direct democracy of belief.
Have you ever read Gaiman's Sandman? There's one issue called "A Dream of a Thousand Cats" that reminds me of this mechanic. Essentially, in the comic, the world used to be ruled by supreme cat-lords and cat-ladies of gigantic size; humans were mere playthings. However, one day, a human proclaims to all the other humans that if all of them dream simultaneously of a different world - one in which humans are the rulers, not the cats - the world will change. The humans dream, and the world changes overnight - but it changes in such a way so that the world was always that way, so that cats never were the masters and were always, erm, cat-sized (as opposed to house-sized). But one cat, who is told this story by the title character (Morpheus, the Sandman), wants the other cats of the world to dream themselves back in charge...
Quote from: SteerpikeI see your conundrum. Essentially you'd have made objective reality answerable to a kind of direct democracy of belief.
It is indeed a conundrum, but its this kind of thinking that really gets me places, so its a good kind of conundrum. Do you think it's a capable world mechanic?
Quote from: SteerpikeHave you ever read Gaiman's Sandman? There's one issue called "A Dream of a Thousand Cats" that reminds me of this mechanic. Essentially, in the comic, the world used to be ruled by supreme cat-lords and cat-ladies of gigantic size; humans were mere playthings. However, one day, a human proclaims to all the other humans that if all of them dream simultaneously of a different world - one in which humans are the rulers, not the cats - the world will change. The humans dream, and the world changes overnight - but it changes in such a way so that the world was always that way, so that cats never were the masters and were always, erm, cat-sized (as opposed to house-sized). But one cat, who is told this story by the title character (Morpheus, the Sandman), wants the other cats of the world to dream themselves back in charge...
Hah! Sounds like it'd be right up my alley, quirkiness and all. Is the rest of the book good?
It's a fantastic series - actually a 10 volume comic series (and the only comic to EVER win the World Fantasy Award - they changed it after Sandman won so that comics are no longer eligible, so Sandman will remain the only comic to ever win). The series takes its time to find its feet but once it gets going its really excellent.
Gaiman's prose novel American Gods also has some similarities - the gods are sustained by human belief, and as belief dwindles they lose power.
First off, welcome to the community. We've been getting a number of new faces, and I'm really glad to see that.
Now, onto your question. I'm writing this out as I read, so forgive me if something's redundant. Right off the bat, I'm very into the idea. It reminds me of a way I took to René Descartes's "I think, therefore I am" phrase; in a world a friend and I were making in high school, we called this idea "idealism", and it stated that the laws of reality only exist because the collective consciousness believed in them. Magic was prevalent in the past because more people believed. In this world, androids were the first to rediscover magic because they were better able to reprogram their own beliefs. So, not to hijack, but I love your idea.
So, I do like the idea of monsters as well as gods being spawned from collective belief. I think your ideas behind these requiring large numbers of people or people with very strong convictions will limit things well enough.
But, I do have a contribution for a world like this. I don't know what game system you're going to use, if any, but I think there should be some sort of "lucid dreaming" skill that certain people would have (in d20 terms, it would be a charisma skill). The idea behind it is people can impose their will and belief upon reality once they are aware of the nature of reality. In narrative, it would allow a character to make almost anything small scale happen. In game terms, it would be like a weak variable power, mimicking weak spells, altering the terrain, and maybe even summoning little temporary monsters. The entire magic system of the world could be based around this ability.
I like it. I'm eager to see what you do with it.
Quote from: XeviatBut, I do have a contribution for a world like this. I don't know what game system you're going to use, if any, but I think there should be some sort of "lucid dreaming" skill that certain people would have (in d20 terms, it would be a charisma skill). The idea behind it is people can impose their will and belief upon reality once they are aware of the nature of reality. In narrative, it would allow a character to make almost anything small scale happen. In game terms, it would be like a weak variable power, mimicking weak spells, altering the terrain, and maybe even summoning little temporary monsters. The entire magic system of the world could be based around this ability.
It seems to me that something like this would also work very well with the concept of "Action Points" as they exist in Eberron and 4e D&D. The idea that, in a given moment, even someone not really skilled in magic can tweak reality by their lucidity in what's going on, and by force of will and belief.
Quote from: Seraphine_HarmoniumQuote from: XeviatBut, I do have a contribution for a world like this. I don't know what game system you're going to use, if any, but I think there should be some sort of "lucid dreaming" skill that certain people would have (in d20 terms, it would be a charisma skill). The idea behind it is people can impose their will and belief upon reality once they are aware of the nature of reality. In narrative, it would allow a character to make almost anything small scale happen. In game terms, it would be like a weak variable power, mimicking weak spells, altering the terrain, and maybe even summoning little temporary monsters. The entire magic system of the world could be based around this ability.
It seems to me that something like this would also work very well with the concept of "Action Points" as they exist in Eberron and 4e D&D. The idea that, in a given moment, even someone not really skilled in magic can tweak reality by their lucidity in what's going on, and by force of will and belief.
Good point. From a mechanical standpoint, many of us have moved to skill-based, grittier systems, which would be an ill-fit for a setting where concepts can become real and the different views of reality actually shift the Solid Life in line with those beliefs.
This system definitly falls into line with a game with player input into the omniscent narrative.
And one wonders how those who DO use magic will view/use/interpret this 'law'.
Quote from: LordVreegQuote from: Seraphine_HarmoniumQuote from: XeviatBut, I do have a contribution for a world like this. I don't know what game system you're going to use, if any, but I think there should be some sort of "lucid dreaming" skill that certain people would have (in d20 terms, it would be a charisma skill). The idea behind it is people can impose their will and belief upon reality once they are aware of the nature of reality. In narrative, it would allow a character to make almost anything small scale happen. In game terms, it would be like a weak variable power, mimicking weak spells, altering the terrain, and maybe even summoning little temporary monsters. The entire magic system of the world could be based around this ability.
It seems to me that something like this would also work very well with the concept of "Action Points" as they exist in Eberron and 4e D&D. The idea that, in a given moment, even someone not really skilled in magic can tweak reality by their lucidity in what's going on, and by force of will and belief.
Good point. From a mechanical standpoint, many of us have moved to skill-based, grittier systems, which would be an ill-fit for a setting where concepts can become real and the different views of reality actually shift the Solid Life in line with those beliefs.
This system definitly falls into line with a game with player input into the omniscent narrative.
And one wonders how those who DO use magic will view/use/interpret this 'law'.
It's funny you should mention lucid dreaming, its basically the reason I built the setting in the first place. I wanted something to reflect my creative interest in dreams, and this setting is the result. It's constantly been tinkered with for the last seven years, and I'm finally starting to ground all my ideas.
Essentially, the world itself has fallen asleep and dreamt up the mortal realm. Everything from trees to demons are all the result of the worlds rampant dreaming. Magicians were the first people to realize that the world was a dream, and thus understood that they were not limited by the implied "rules" of reality. Essentially, they attained Lucidity, which allowed them to cast their spells and work their magic. Of course, that sort of training takes years to perfect, and only the extremely gifted could teach themselves the ways of "unbelief" of their real world limitations, so good magicians are somewhat sparse (ironically, the campaign world is still highly magical, its just those who can use that magic who remain uncommon).
Before anyone says anything, I want to let you know that the idea behind magic and this "Law" were thought up on separate occasions, so the two might not exactly mesh with each other as perfectly as I wish, but I'm open to suggestions. I'm still trying to reign all my favorite ideas in under one roof and have them, well, make sense (which, ironically, is something I shouldn't be too worried about in a "dream world," but I don't want the sheer "wonderlandishness" of it to give it instability; I want it to remain a playable and somewhat understandable world).
But now I'm just rambling... I'm actually using D&D 3.5 rules (Pathfinder, to be more specific). To be honest, I haven't thought of changing any mechanics, but its crossed my mind as a possibility. I think it would be a good way to really bring the players into the setting, though I've never been one skilled at balanced mechanics. Action Points might be the safest way to do this, especially if I reflavored them as "Lucid Points" or something. I was looking for a way to give more "mundane" classes a way to manipulate their surroundings like a spellcaster could, and this might be the best solution.
Seems Steerpike already beat me to mentioning Sandman, heh. It's a great series, and probably good inspiration for a dream-based setting. A Dream of a Thousand Cats is perfect for this sort of idea.
As for an objective reality, I think the only law that needs to be immutable for this to work is this law itself. I can't think of anything else that would be required to be perfectly immutable. My personal taste would be in having some universal, immutable laws, which might give the setting a closer feel to Sandman, but it could work just as easily without them, bringing the tone closer to the Descartes thing.
Hi there Weave, welcome to CBG.
I'll tell you how my setting works, which coincidentally has some sort of Jungian influence; perhaps you can extract something useful for yours.
In Messalan, Reality is composed by abstract concepts known as Patterns and Colors, as though it were a caleidoscope.
The combination of different Patterns and Colors create different Perspectives, which in turn model what you see, hear, etc. in your reality.
So, whenever there's a conflict between to opposite beliefs (e.g: "Magic exists" vs "Magic is a fairytale"), Reality splits in two different Perspectives. Those who believe in one Perspective will be oblivious to the other; is not that their living in a separate world, but rather perceive it differently. This is akin to Ulan Dohr's tale in Dying Earth (from Jack Vance), where people wearing green clothes (sect of Cazdal) would walk right in front of a Panziu's worshiper (who wore red) and not notice them.
The above is a simplified version of what happens, but it might help you in how you resolve conflicts in your world.
As LordVreeg posted, I don't think is such a good idea to make everyone know that they can shape their Universe at will, perhaps would be better if there was some kind of Awakening or the like.
Quote from: Cap. Karnaugh (aka gnola14)Hi there Weave, welcome to CBG.
I'll tell you how my setting works, which coincidentally has some sort of Jungian influence; perhaps you can extract something useful for yours.
In Messalan, Reality is composed by abstract concepts known as Patterns and Colors, as though it were a caleidoscope.
The combination of different Patterns and Colors create different Perspectives, which in turn model what you see, hear, etc. in your reality.
So, whenever there's a conflict between to opposite beliefs (e.g: "Magic exists" vs "Magic is a fairytale"), Reality splits in two different Perspectives. Those who believe in one Perspective will be oblivious to the other; is not that their living in a separate world, but rather perceive it differently. This is akin to Ulan Dohr's tale in Dying Earth (from Jack Vance), where people wearing green clothes (sect of Cazdal) would walk right in front of a Panziu's worshiper (who wore red) and not notice them.
The above is a simplified version of what happens, but it might help you in how you resolve conflicts in your world.
As Ghostman posted, I don't think is such a good idea to make everyone know that they can shape their Universe at will, perhaps would be better if there was some kind of Awakening or the like.
That actually sounds very interesting. Could this not result in there being thousands of Perspectives, though? I'd be interested to hear more about it.
I'd probably be looking for something a little more simplified for my GMing nature.
Which brings me to a slight aside: I'm always torn about purposely narrowing something awesome down into more manageable chunks to ease up gaming and player understanding. Sometimes I just want a multidimensional forest to be easy to do a combat in, but it rarely turns out so.
Quote from: The_Weave05That actually sounds very interesting. Could this not result in there being thousands of Perspectives, though? I'd be interested to hear more about it.
Indeed, that's something that could -theoretically- happen. It is known by those with the "Look" as the Shattering (the time when everyone becomes isolated in their own void) and many groups are trying to somehow prevent it.
I said theoretically, because it's quite difficult to dissapear -for example- an entire kingdom or race; the effects of a conflict are proportional to its magnitude. So you need lots of people wholeheartedly believing that something it's true (or not) in order to see such a massive effect.
At least in Messalan, most of the effects are much subtler -but not less insidious-: a scent is lost, certain plants cease to exist, some clever idea never manifests...stuff like that. Nevertheless, it is not rare to find cities who don't believe (eg) in Mandtyrs (Bull-men), so when one of them runs into such cities, he finds himself turned into a Gergasi (a giant human) or worst, simply dissapears from the Universe into the Limb -at least until people starts believing again in Mandtyr or move away from that spot-.
In short, the formula would be something like: Effect = believers * rooting of belief * time the belief has been around.
I am reminded of Mage: the Ascension by this setting idea... it's different enough to not rip it off (the giant dream part), but they do deal with some similar themes (i.e. consensus reality). A medieval fantasy (and more heroic) take on these themes can be quite interesting.
Quote from: St0nEI am reminded of Mage: the Ascension by this setting idea... it's different enough to not rip it off (the giant dream part), but they do deal with some similar themes (i.e. consensus reality). A medieval fantasy (and more heroic) take on these themes can be quite interesting.
It's funny, I've never actually touched Mage: the Ascension before, but you're not the only person who's referred me to it. I'll admit to being a little bummed when I heard something out there has already taken this idea and ran with it, but I'm glad to hear I'm different enough to not shove it off as a rip-off. Part of my setting's creative process is thinking up how people would live in such a "dream world."
Quote from: Rorschach FritosSeems Steerpike already beat me to mentioning Sandman, heh. It's a great series, and probably good inspiration for a dream-based setting. A Dream of a Thousand Cats is perfect for this sort of idea.
As for an objective reality, I think the only law that needs to be immutable for this to work is this law itself. I can't think of anything else that would be required to be perfectly immutable. My personal taste would be in having some universal, immutable laws, which might give the setting a closer feel to Sandman, but it could work just as easily without them, bringing the tone closer to the Descartes thing.
Hmm, that might be fun. I was always fond of Isaac Asimov's "3 Laws of Robotics," but I also wouldn't want to add immutable laws for the sake of symmetry. I would have to ponder this for a while and see if there was truly a need for others, but it would be a pretty interesting concept to wrap a setting around.
Quote from: The_Weave05I have a setting that I've been developing for several years now thats based off a sort of Jungian dreamscape. Its one of my prime enjoyments because I have to purposely think outside of the regular scheme of how things might work, which is surprisingly tough. One of my latest thoughts regarded the "gods" of the setting, which are essentially the physical manifestation of cultural memes. In other words, they're created from humanoid kind's collective thoughts. It would take an immense amount of collective thought to give a meme a physical appearance (to prevent there from being millions of memes for every small group of like-minded thinkers), but then I wondered: why should this stop at memes?
So from there I've been contemplating the repercussions of allowing whatever is collectively believed to be, well, made true over time (like the gods). For instance, because the vast majority of sailers believe in the tales of the kraken, the kraken thus becomes a real thing.
I've been giving this some thought and I don't think I can work it all out on my own without creating some guidelines... I understand that things can get crazy real fast with this idea, but it nonetheless interests me.
So I ask, would anyone be willing to help me with this? Give some scenarios where this might be interesting, or where it might get crazy? This isn't set in stone, but I see it as a sort of creative thought exercise for myself. What do you guys and gals think?
This sounds very much like the metaphysics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crafts_%28World_of_Darkness%29#Metaphysics) from Mage: The Ascension.
This is a great idea. There is one major flaw, however. How did anything happen ever? If everything is created by beleif, then how did anything come to be before people? If beleifs create deities, then there was nothing around to create anything, including the people who are dreaming. See this? Perhaps have one big creator god that nobody is aware of, and the things that I just mentioned could be one of the huge mysteries of life.
And I am also completely with whoever said that the general population should not know about the way the universe works. Only a few of the very wise should be aware of this.
I also have an idea: perhaps the harder you concentrate, the more of a difference it makes in the universe. Just a little tweak but it might be interesting.
Quote from: SurvivormanThis is a great idea. There is one major flaw, however. How did anything happen ever? If everything is created by beleif, then how did anything come to be before people? If beleifs create deities, then there was nothing around to create anything, including the people who are dreaming. See this? Perhaps have one big creator god that nobody is aware of, and the things that I just mentioned could be one of the huge mysteries of life.
And I am also completely with whoever said that the general population should not know about the way the universe works. Only a few of the very wise should be aware of this.
I also have an idea: perhaps the harder you concentrate, the more of a difference it makes in the universe. Just a little tweak but it might be interesting.
Ah, a valid observation! I'm glad you caught it.
Technically, the only "legitimate" god in my setting is the world itself, which dreamt everyone up. This could have laid a basic pallet for which its mortal creations could manipulate. This would make for a good creation mystery for people to contemplate. And yes, only a select portion of the populace would know about this law.
Thanks for the pointers!
I think a point based system like Mutants and Masterminds could work well for this actually. As for staying with 3E D&D, the Manual of the Planes had a "Lucid Dreaming" skill in the back amongst the information on the Plane of Dreams. I'd also blend in some of the "divine morphic" planes from Deities and Demigods. A lucid dreaming skill could work for letting any lucid character (and I think all PCs should be lucid, it would be a good justification for why they're so much more awesome than the common rabble) perform some minor things. I'm thinking like a DC 15 check for cantrip level stuff, and +5 DC for every level above that. Use a hero point system as the economy for that, but otherwise let people utilize any spell to help shape the effect they're going for.
I'd also give out those lucid points like candy. Read up on Mutants and Mastermind's hero points for ideas on when to give them out (whenever someone does something really awesome, or as a consolation prize for whenever someone spectacularly fails, though they can't use the point to negate the failure).
I'd love to play in this setting. It's got me all excited.
You should try readng "The End of Mr. Y". It's also about how the world came to be through belief (well, in the long run it is).
All the things ever discovered by mankind and science were in fact influenced by the very theories the scientists were trying to prove. So before that, there was nothing; only when mankind actually tried to find a pattern did the pattern come into place.
Also, consider making it oneway. Dreams and beliefs can only create things, only make new things come into place. You mentioned something like it earlier, where only the "mages" could unbelieve; the power to actually change reality and not just create something new.
Of course, I realize this might be a bit too "stagnant" for what you had in mind. But thought I'd mention it :)
You could always go with this and still have public consciousness influence things, in such a way that you can still have your slanderous warfare and such.
I am reminded of SLA Industries, that nineties RPG game about dream-techno-punk SLAyers trouncing around doing stuff for SLA industries.
This reeks of the Matrix, Gnosticism, and Australian Aboriginal Mythology. I think you should look into those for inspiration.
Other than that, you have something quite fine here. I just think that there needs to be a unifying and standardized element within your game on which to anchor everything else. Without that anchor, everything devolves into paradox and chaos.
I also think you should begin work on some setting fluff already, and don't forgel Carl Jung's take on Spiritual Alchemy. In a reality directly and immediately affected by perceptions rather than objective situations, self-actualization becomes a matter of life and death: oblivion and existence.
Quote from: XeviatI think a point based system like Mutants and Masterminds could work well for this actually. As for staying with 3E D&D, the Manual of the Planes had a "Lucid Dreaming" skill in the back amongst the information on the Plane of Dreams. I'd also blend in some of the "divine morphic" planes from Deities and Demigods. A lucid dreaming skill could work for letting any lucid character (and I think all PCs should be lucid, it would be a good justification for why they're so much more awesome than the common rabble) perform some minor things. I'm thinking like a DC 15 check for cantrip level stuff, and +5 DC for every level above that. Use a hero point system as the economy for that, but otherwise let people utilize any spell to help shape the effect they're going for.
I'd also give out those lucid points like candy. Read up on Mutants and Mastermind's hero points for ideas on when to give them out (whenever someone does something really awesome, or as a consolation prize for whenever someone spectacularly fails, though they can't use the point to negate the failure).
I'd love to play in this setting. It's got me all excited.
Thanks! That means a lot to me from you prestigious folk. I haven't checked out Mutants and Masterminds, is it something I should try picking up? I also had no idea there was a "Lucid Dreaming" skill in the back of the Manual of the Planes... I'm gonna have to peek at that when I get home.
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowYou should try readng "The End of Mr. Y". It's also about how the world came to be through belief (well, in the long run it is).
All the things ever discovered by mankind and science were in fact influenced by the very theories the scientists were trying to prove. So before that, there was nothing; only when mankind actually tried to find a pattern did the pattern come into place.
Also, consider making it oneway. Dreams and beliefs can only create things, only make new things come into place. You mentioned something like it earlier, where only the "mages" could unbelieve; the power to actually change reality and not just create something new.
Of course, I realize this might be a bit too "stagnant" for what you had in mind. But thought I'd mention it :)
You could always go with this and still have public consciousness influence things, in such a way that you can still have your slanderous warfare and such.
I should really just make a list of books I need to read...
American Gods
Sandman
The End of Mr. Y.
You know, upon reading about your suggestion of it being "one way," I grew sort of thoughtful on the matter, but generally decided I wanted to keep it going in both directions. BUT, I don't necessarily disagree with you; I think it'll just be much easier for mages to "unbelieve" than more "mundane" folk. Well, "heroes," I guess I should say, given that I plan on allowing the PCs to have some leeway on this regardless of whether or not they can use magic.
Something that maybe no one's covered is that most examples listed so far seem to deal with adults and their ideas. Assuming children follow the same rules, they could have some drastic effects as well. Sailors believe kraken exist far out in the ocean. Children believe monsters exist directly under their bed.
One child scared of the monster under their bed might not be enough to create one, but it seems like the boogey man would definitely exist. ^_^ Telling ghost stories might also be a bad idea.
Really, there's a whole host of groundless fears children have. Also adults, to be fair. Like the old wives tale that cats will steal the breath of a sleeping infant. What effect would such fears and superstitions have on your setting?
Maybe disbelief has an effect? There are many kids who believe in e.g. Santa, but even more adults who believe him not to exist.
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowMaybe disbelief has an effect? There are many kids who believe in e.g. Santa, but even more adults who believe him not to exist.
what do you mean? Santa is real.
Quote from: brainfaceSomething that maybe no one's covered is that most examples listed so far seem to deal with adults and their ideas. Assuming children follow the same rules, they could have some drastic effects as well. Sailors believe kraken exist far out in the ocean. Children believe monsters exist directly under their bed.
One child scared of the monster under their bed might not be enough to create one, but it seems like the boogey man would definitely exist. ^_^ Telling ghost stories might also be a bad idea.
Really, there's a whole host of groundless fears children have. Also adults, to be fair. Like the old wives tale that cats will steal the breath of a sleeping infant. What effect would such fears and superstitions have on your setting?
This leaves the door WIDE open to Freddy Kreuger style villains. Just throwing it out there.
Quote from: Seraphine_HarmoniumQuote from: brainfaceSomething that maybe no one's covered is that most examples listed so far seem to deal with adults and their ideas. Assuming children follow the same rules, they could have some drastic effects as well. Sailors believe kraken exist far out in the ocean. Children believe monsters exist directly under their bed.
One child scared of the monster under their bed might not be enough to create one, but it seems like the boogey man would definitely exist. ^_^ Telling ghost stories might also be a bad idea.
Really, there's a whole host of groundless fears children have. Also adults, to be fair. Like the old wives tale that cats will steal the breath of a sleeping infant. What effect would such fears and superstitions have on your setting?
This leaves the door WIDE open to Freddy Kreuger style villains. Just throwing it out there.
Ah! Good point. The boogeyman would definitely be a recurring enemy to any child and thereby adult, since most of those "superstitions" would become factual and physical. It really brings a Tim Burton (one of my personal favorites) feel to the scene without entirely dominating the setting. I like it!
I've thought about the repercussions of ghost stories and "make-believing" in general, which would probably be a very dangerous thing to do... well, en masse. A single person's belief in ghosts wouldn't justify their reality, but amidst far more people it would make them quite real. Also, cultural thought could easily impact certain things as well: perhaps Halflings believe ghosts are to be revered and are peaceful beings, so within their land ghosts might be seen regularly with little alarm. On the other hand, if Dwarves see ghosts as unnatural and fickle beings, then they might rightfully be so.
The boogeyman comment got me wondering... if I had a group of PCs fight the big bad boogeyman (that sounds like it would be a LOT of fun for me) and they won, I don't think that would be the end of the battle, necessarily. They would need to take the time to go about and spread the proof that the boogeyman is dead, either by presenting his head or something. If not, the boogeyman would simply feast its weakened energies upon the thoughts and fears of children and adults alike to reanimate itself into the physical world. This might take some time, but he could certainly be back in time to heckle the PCs again and exact his revenge. He is the Oogey-Boogey Man, after all ;].
This would give new definition to the Ranger class, or any sort of bounty hunter; they could hunt conjured fears and use diplomatic skill to convince people that his quarry is dead. Now that would be a fun concept to play around with...
So, would hurting or wounding a thoughtbeing have any repercussions on the minds that dreamt it up?
Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowSo, would hurting or wounding a thoughtbeing have any repercussions on the minds that dreamt it up?
Interesting thought. To be honest, I never really considered it. I just assumed it was a one-way relationship: they could harm the thought beings by unbelieving, but it would never hurt them to have their thought being killed because they wouldn't be aware that it was even gone in the first place. It might actually be thematically more interesting to have it be a double-edged sword in which slaying a thought being harms the thinkers psyche in some way, since the abrupt disappearance of it causes a sort of break in the physicality of their world (having it fade away naturally, for whatever reason or another, would remain harmless).
I'm tempted to adopt this, only because my prior explanation where the PCs would have to go about proving they killed a being might be interesting once or twice, but could get annoyingly tedious and repetitive, especially if they shouldn't succeed in convincing everyone. BUT, at the same time, I'm reluctant to coin this one solely because I don't want the "heroes" to be responsible for the mental catastrophe of potentially thousands of NPCs.
Thoughts? I could always go back and provide an alternative to having to "convince" everyone of an iconic thought being's death... maybe make some sort of ritual they can perform to automatically clarify to the superconscious that "It's dead," which subconsciously notifies everyone else, who would still go about as if nothing happened (that might be a little too anticlimactic. Perhaps they know its gone and automatically let go of their specific belief that fueled it? That way the players could still receive congratulations when they return to the local populous).
PS: CC, I'm temporarily gonna borrow your term "thought being," (I like it) but it might change for the final project.
A lot of the concepts you could use here are already present in numerous belief systems. I'm tempted to quote them all, and I have already pointed out some, but that would make a long onerous list. Instead, I'll just throw out a few concepts which I think could be of use to you.
Democracy of Opinion, I learned this in Literature 101 when I used to be a litmajor before I shifted to more economically viable course called masscomm. It is pretty much a self explanatory concept, and its use to your campaign is that, your game reality now becomes one big democracy of opinion; where reality becomes what it is according to the majority number of consciousness that believe it to be what it truly is. What does this spell for your campaign? Simple, the power of idea and its ramifications.
Congress of Embryos, if your world then is a democracy of opinion, then it is the actualization of multiple consciousness in concert with each other. The significance here is that, reality itself could take sentience. Why? Simple. Imagine the matrix and its use of humanity as batteries. The minds of the humans are thus in concert, contributing to the formation of reality within the Matrix, kept in logical check by the machines. Thus, what we have here is that the consciousnesses affect reality in both natal and post natal state, thus having a Congress of Reality manned by embryos. This has its own ramifications.
Reflective Effect, this concerns the idea of Nature versus Nurture. If what people believe affect reality, then that reality also affects people like a mirror. This is the weakness of reality's stability, if reality fluctuates the people inside must also fluctuate like dominoes, who are in turn nurtured into affecting reality again...domino-effect entropy. If reality is in constant flux, as it should be, then the laws of logic, physics, and sanity must be altered to fit every schema that incidentally occurs.
Sentient Reality, this entropy could result in the evolved sentience of reality itself, outside the other reality which you already professed--of that demiurge that just happened to dream everyone else up.
Personal Reality, this is one idea I learned from To Aru Kagaku Railgun, Schrodinger effect and all that. It concerns what I have already mentioned before about how self-actualization could be a matter of existence and inexistence, with the fabric of reality so weak that you could cease to exist, or oscillate between existence and inexistence, dependent on the state of reality itself and its formation by others.
Here, the concepts of self, other, fringe, edge, and subalterns will play a good deal. Things are quite grievous when the possibility of your become a figment of someone's imagination becomes very real.
Finally, for stability, you need an anchor. This could take the form of a D20 Player's Handbook, an absolute truth, or even a piece of rock which exists only for itself and of itself. I hope I was helpful.
Quote from: The_Weave05Interesting thought. To be honest, I never really considered it. I just assumed it was a one-way relationship: they could harm the thought beings by unbelieving, but it would never hurt them to have their thought being killed because they wouldn't be aware that it was even gone in the first place. It might actually be thematically more interesting to have it be a double-edged sword in which slaying a thought being harms the thinkers psyche in some way, since the abrupt disappearance of it causes a sort of break in the physicality of their world (having it fade away naturally, for whatever reason or another, would remain harmless).
If a thought-being were destroyed or changed in some significant way, the people could receive prophetic visions about it. Probably something too vague and confusing for most to figure out just what has happened, but enough to realize that it's important. Then those responsible for the event could reveal the truth to the masses - or use the opportunity to trick them into believing something quite different...
Quote from: Teh_AzA lot of the concepts you could use here are already present in numerous belief systems. I'm tempted to quote them all, and I have already pointed out some, but that would make a long onerous list. Instead, I'll just throw out a few concepts which I think could be of use to you.
Democracy of Opinion, I learned this in Literature 101 when I used to be a litmajor before I shifted to more economically viable course called masscomm. It is pretty much a self explanatory concept, and its use to your campaign is that, your game reality now becomes one big democracy of opinion; where reality becomes what it is according to the majority number of consciousness that believe it to be what it truly is. What does this spell for your campaign? Simple, the power of idea and its ramifications.
Congress of Embryos, if your world then is a democracy of opinion, then it is the actualization of multiple consciousness in concert with each other. The significance here is that, reality itself could take sentience. Why? Simple. Imagine the matrix and its use of humanity as batteries. The minds of the humans are thus in concert, contributing to the formation of reality within the Matrix, kept in logical check by the machines. Thus, what we have here is that the consciousnesses affect reality in both natal and post natal state, thus having a Congress of Reality manned by embryos. This has its own ramifications.
Reflective Effect, this concerns the idea of Nature versus Nurture. If what people believe affect reality, then that reality also affects people like a mirror. This is the weakness of reality's stability, if reality fluctuates the people inside must also fluctuate like dominoes, who are in turn nurtured into affecting reality again...domino-effect entropy. If reality is in constant flux, as it should be, then the laws of logic, physics, and sanity must be altered to fit every schema that incidentally occurs.
Sentient Reality, this entropy could result in the evolved sentience of reality itself, outside the other reality which you already professed--of that demiurge that just happened to dream everyone else up.
Personal Reality, this is one idea I learned from To Aru Kagaku Railgun, Schrodinger effect and all that. It concerns what I have already mentioned before about how self-actualization could be a matter of existence and inexistence, with the fabric of reality so weak that you could cease to exist, or oscillate between existence and inexistence, dependent on the state of reality itself and its formation by others.
Here, the concepts of self, other, fringe, edge, and subalterns will play a good deal. Things are quite grievous when the possibility of your become a figment of someone's imagination becomes very real.
Finally, for stability, you need an anchor. This could take the form of a D20 Player's Handbook, an absolute truth, or even a piece of rock which exists only for itself and of itself. I hope I was helpful.
You clearly have a more vast understanding of this subject than I do, but I'm also only a sophomore in college majoring in Psychology, so I have to give myself a little leeway. Forgive me if I'm missing something, but I think I generally understand what you mean. The one thing that went over my head was what you mean by an "anchor." Are you referring to a unifying concept to ground my world around? You threw me off when you mentioned a D20 Player's Handbook :) . I was hoping for the Law to become a central, immutable concept to begin folding the setting around, but I know it isn't quite enough. It's so strange you mention a piece of rock, because I actually
have an unknown material that penetrates the center of the plane like a pole, silvery and indestructible and immutable, with alien hieroglyphics covering it. Nothing has been able to alter it, and it seems to stretch below ground endlessly. The world, as a dreamer, goes through the sleep cycles, it just takes a millennia to go through one. Every time it cycles through them, the "dreamworld" its creates is destroyed and reborn... naturally, no one in the setting is aware of this, but this "rock" is always there, containing the etchings of thousands of past civilizations that have been destroyed. You reminded me of it.
And thank you for the valuable information. It was very helpful.
Quote from: GhostmanIf a thought-being were destroyed or changed in some significant way, the people could receive prophetic visions about it. Probably something too vague and confusing for most to figure out just what has happened, but enough to realize that it's important. Then those responsible for the event could reveal the truth to the masses - or use the opportunity to trick them into believing something quite different...
That might be the best way to go. Something commonplace that doesn't constantly detract from their known reality, but is significant enough for them to realize that they've changed in some way. I think I really need to think this one out before I can get a clear idea as to what I wanna do with it.
Quote from: the weaveThe one thing that went over my head was what you mean by an "anchor." Are you referring to a unifying concept to ground my world around? You threw me off when you mentioned a D20 Player's Handbook
It's so strange you mention a piece of rock, because I actually
have an unknown material that penetrates the center of the plane like a pole, silvery and indestructible and immutable, with alien hieroglyphics covering it. Nothing has been able to alter it, and it seems to stretch below ground endlessly. The world, as a dreamer, goes through the sleep cycles, it just takes a millennia to go through one. Every time it cycles through them, the "dreamworld" its creates is destroyed and reborn... naturally, no one in the setting is aware of this, but this "rock" is always there, containing the etchings of thousands of past civilizations that have been destroyed. You reminded me of it.[/quote]
Hmm, maybe if you killed a thought-being its existence would fade from the world until somebody dreamt it up again.
People would forget about the reality they had dreamt up since it has been destroyed, and the idea of the thought-being would become myth, story or nothing at all.
Okay, so I've thought some things out and here's what I've come up with:
By themselves, only those capable of magic can alter the world, albeit in small ways (spells). Anyone else can alter the world so long as they and many others believe what they think to be true. Usually, these changes take decades, if not longer, but the changes can be accelerated depending on the conviction and the amount of people who believe it (or decelerated, should there be less conviction and/or people).
The alterations that such thoughts can bring are absolute within the area in which people believe it. For example, if a group of Elves believe that by sacrificing an animal they can extend their hours of daylight, then so long as they sacrifice and believe then the hours of the day are extended within their land. Think of the believe as a burst effect, emanating from the most congested area of Elves and radiating from it until and other believers in a large radius around them.
Very few know of this Law, but even knowing of it doesn't always negate the beliefs of the person; it takes a certain training of thought to truly grasp the conceptuality behind it. Particularly well-educated or spiritual people would be more likely to know of and possibly understand this Law, though it is by no means taught in regular schooling.
The Law itself is immutable and not subject to its own rules.
Regarding thought beings:
Thought beings are the result of rampant, unchecked imagination. In most civilized societies, Thought Purgers (specialized mages) go about and use their Fetches (familiars) to prune the minds of the common folk, removing "dangerous thoughts." Though few people take solace in the thought of strangers fiddling around in their heads, they understand it to be a sort of tax in exchange for communal safety on behalf of the higher-ups in charge. On a similar note, few common folk even understand what exactly they're doing; Thought Purgers come about when the regular taxes do, and collect both at the same time. They usually ask a person to hold their "pet" as they collect the money, allowing the pet to play with their hair, secretly delving through the various thoughts of the individual.
Often times, Thought Purgers (better name pending...) don't always manage to remove the dangerous thoughts and thought beings are conjured. When those thought beings are killed, their ties to the folks that believed them are diminished, sometimes enough to prevent them from reformulating. Other times, for particularly popular thought beings, it takes proof of their slaying or a powerful ritual to have them removed from the mass of minds that brought them into being.
I think thats it... but I might've forgot something I meant to cover.
I love your idea of Thought Purgers. It's like the SS but they could erase your memories.