The Campaign Builder's Guild

I've actually edited my original post now, with the first draft of how this topic will appear in my world primer. The topic is "Introduction to Cadastrean Spirituality", so if anyone wants to give it a read, go for it.

Quote from: Love of AwesomeI don't quite understand what you mean by a "Fantasy Kitchen Sink". But other than that thanks for the input!

I'm working on a world map to show where the territories changed. The united states still has quite a chunk of land in North America, but it is progressively expanding down to South America. For right now i've decided to focus on the western Hemisphere so that i don't burn myself out like I usually do. Sorry more info later. I'm kind of tired.

Well, a Fantasy Kitchen Sink is when every kind of fantasy animal and mythological creature is thrown into a setting. But it's really only a fantasy kitchen sink if everything is just thrown in without consideration for how it fits in with other things.

Kinda like how a kitchen sink is full of all different kinds of bacteria that don't usually have that much to do with each other.

Quote from: Ghostman
That does explain it a little better. Thanks for the clarification. :)

I think much of the confusion arises from lack of context - you're discussing the concept of Faith separate from the religions it's part of. Possibly due to this approach it comes across as something comparable to a widespread superstition (a la "breaking a mirror gives you misfortune"), as opposed to an element that links a number of different religions together. It could be helpful to show things from a historical POV: explain where and when the idea of Faith originated and how it came to be propagated among the populations that now believe in it.

I might do a write up like that with a historian character. Thanks for the idea.

Quote from: Ghostman
This seems pretty confusing.

I'm sorry it seems confusing. I did make this thread so that I'd be able to write this idea out with more coherence.

Quote from: GhostmanYou haven't defined this concept of 'Faith' much beyond it being like an emotion, and that it brings good luck.

That's actually about as far as the concept goes. Saying "Cadastrean Spirituality" is like saying "Native American". It isn't its own thing. Cadastrean Spirituality is actually made up of hundreds of individual belief systems, which then vary by the individual who believes in them. And each individual belief system is made of ideal relationships between a faithful person and the spirits and deities.

And Faith really is like True Love, not just in that only some people feel it while others don't, and not just in the controversy of whether it's real or fake. It's also not quanitifiable. If Person A has True Love for Person B, and Person 1 has True Love for Person 2, the amount of True Love can't be measured.

But it's still something you FEEL. It's still an emotion. Its existence is contested, but for those who feel it, it's very real.

So, yeah... it actually doesn't go beyond what you just said as a concept, because that's what it actually is.

Quote from: GhostmanBut you keep making references to things like spirits and churches, without really explaining what they are and how (if at all?) they are related to Faith.

I don't really know how to explain this one.

A church is a building where people who believe in the same or similar things congregate. Therefore a church group or congregation is a group of people who come together in a church because they belief in the same or similar things.

Spirits and deities are exactly what they say on the tin. They're spirits and deities. They're magical beings (like God or the Rainbow Serpent) that some people believe have an active role in the world, and others believe don't. They do definitely exist, and nobody contests this. But belief systems are built on the relationships that people think they SHOULD have with these spirits and deities.

See Example A below.

Quote from: GhostmanDoes possessing Faith actually imply believing in something, and if so, does it matter what you believe in?

No, and no... kinda. See Example A below.

If you are a supplicant of Cadastrean Spirituality, then believing in something implies feeling, or wanting to feel, Faith (so it's the other way around from what you said). It doesn't matter what you believe, because as I mentioned above, Cadastrean Spirituality is made up of hundreds of belief systems, which are only grouped together because of the commonalities (mainly the emotional called Faith) which this thread was made to write about. But mostly the belief systems are about the relationships an individual "should" have with specific spirits and deities, and how they see you when you feel the emotion called Faith.

***


EXAMPLE A

Salty McSaltbreath!

Salty McSaltbreath is a deity.

Johnny Bloggs has a belief system which idolises Salty McSaltbreath above all other spirits and deities.

Johnny Bloggs has never once in his life felt the emotion called Faith, but he does believe that it is real.

Because he believes Faith is real, Johnny Bloggs lives by the tenets of his belief system (if he did not believe Faith was real, then he would not have one of these belief systems, because he wouldn't see the point).

One of these tenets is that you must leave a small pile of salt outside your door every evening.

Salty McSaltbreath will consume this salt, and it will give him the power to effect change in the world.

If Salty McSaltbreath has this power, and you have Faith, Salty McSaltbreath will be aware of you, and will shower good luck on you (this is a sort of abstract thing. It's essentially just believing that you'll get good karma from it).

Because Johnny Bloggs does not feel the emotion called Faith, he goes to church every Sunday, and the prayers of the congregational leader instill him with some of the light of Faith, and Salty McSaltbreath can see him enough to shower him with some good luck.


***

I hope that explains the things you took issue with a little better?

Quote from: Love of Awesome
That is an interesting idea, however I would say that you are confusing two different things. Belief is more of an emotion than Faith is. Faith is more of an action that is based on belief. Wanting to turn down a road you've never seen or heard of before and thinking that everything will be okay, even though something bad could happen is belief. Actually Turning down a road you've never been on is an act of faith based on your belief.

But I do like the idea of Auras of faith bringing good luck though. That sounds interesting. How would tests of faith work out?

(sorry about the wall of text. I made the thread because I needed to construct the ideas swirling around in my mind, 'cause they're only mostly formed until the questions get asked)

I didn't really want to be talking about 'belief/s' and 'Belief'. Not to mention that beliefless and beliefful doesn't really work. People can actually be faithful or faithless, so it worked better.

At any rate, tests of Faith are a strange thing. Beliefs are mostly founded around the relationship people actually have to the spirits and deities (I don't like to think of them as gods, because they aren't really... gods). Most Cadastrean spirituality, as it says above, plays into that idea that the stronger your Faith feels, the more likely you are to have good luck.

Even if you don't believe that to be true (and there are plenty of reasons not to), you can't deny that the spirits and deities of the world are present. It's just that you may think of your relationship to them as being more a predator-prey relationship, or you may consider them to feed off your goodwill, or you may just think they don't care about mortals at all.

Unless, of course, what you mean is, "can they test someone to see how strong their faith is?" In that case, that's sort of like, "Can you tell if someone really is Jesus reborn?"

There are very few beliefs (I call them this as a short way of saying 'belief sets', because I don't want to associate them so directly with "faiths" and "religions") where open, public worship is a big deal.

Most of the faithful are very private about their worship, and will have their own variations on traditions that have been passed down from generation to generation. There is often a congregation that will be similar in beliefs to an individual's, but they aren't under any obligation to prove themselves. Even leaders of congregations are basically just full-time volunteers who will work for a living wage, and pray for those who cannot feel their Faith.

You've made me realise an important point about the more complicated role that family plays, though, and that's that beliefs are often passed down from generation to generation.

You'd think this would rule out the need for churches and congregations, but the problem is that within a family unit, those who don't contribute to the Faith of the household often feel lost. The rest of the family has something that they don't really "get".

That's the reason I use the "true love" analogy. It really is like that. You either feel it, and believe in it, you don't feel it and you believe in it, or you believe that nobody can possibly feel it, and that those who say they do are lying.

In a family unit, faithless can end up with a sort of spiritual pain because they feel like they're being overlooked by the spirits. Having a congregation, where the leaders are equipped to actually think of you in that way? It heals a lot of those gaps, and makes it easier for the faithless to take part in their family's traditions without feeling neglected.

Whether those spiritual auras are real, and whether the good luck is given by spirits? That's a matter of faith and belief.

Note: So this is the first draft of my world primer for "Introduction to Cadastrean Spirituality". This needs to be understandable for my players who want to read it. It is a bit long, but I'm sure you can all handle that. What I really need to know is if any information feels like it's missing, if anything feels confusing, or if anything... well... anything. I just need the idea to come across clear.


On the continent of Cadaster, the prominent civilisations have, over the past several thousand years, come to have many similarities in their belief systems. These prominent similarities have given rise to the term "Cadastrean Spirituality" as a catch-all for the many hundreds of individual belief systems which can be found in Cadastrean civilisation.


The basic tenet which holds most of Cadastrean Spirituality together lies in the relationships between an individual and the spiritual deities which populate this world. A belief system uses traditions, rituals, and offerings to guide an individual towards an ideal relationship with a deity or group of like deities.

Some belief systems within Cadastrean Spirituality guide individuals towards relationships with just one deity. Some guide them towards relationships with several deities which form groups based on their similarities. Others still seek relationships with deities of very different types in an effort to bring those deities' goodwill upon all aspects of their life.

The latter example is the most common archetype of belief system in Cadastrean civilisation.

   In terms of world spirituality, these spiritual deities are on the lowest rung of the ladder in terms of
   power. They are not omniscient or omnipresent. They do not affect the greatest amount of change in the
   physical world. They are basically just invisible forces, hiding on the other side of the spiritual
   border.

   They are emotional spirits, and are fickle. Observing the rituals which call their attention is only the
   beginning to a relationship with them.


It is all well and good for an adherent to a belief system to follow the traditions of their belief, but in order to actually experience the goodwill the deities can impart, individuals must feel the emotion called Faith.

The emotion called Faith, like true love, is very much a contested emotion. Many people say they feel it, and many more do not. Others go so far as to say that it is a lie, and that it does not exist. It is alike to true love in more ways than this, in that it is not quantifiable. Just as you cannot have "more" true love than another, you cannot have "more" Faith than someone else.

Those who do feel that they have the emotion called Faith are referred to in Cadastrean Spirituality as "faithful". Feeling this emotion is possibly the most important aspect of these belief systems, since it allows deities to "see" you. On the other side of the spiritual border, the world is dark. The emotion called Faith lights up an individual with an aura, which deities can follow from their spirit world.

When an individual has followed all the right rituals, the deity is then able to share their goodwill with the faithful adherent. This goodwill manifests itself abstractly, and is one of the second points of contention for separatists.

   In terms of world spirituality, the emotion called Faith is spelled with a capital F or referred to as
   "the emotion called Faith" to distinguish it from simply having faith in something or someone.

   Many people spend years of their lives not feeling this emotion. For some, it turns on and never turns
   off. Others go through their lives feeling it, with periods of time where they do not. As mentioned
   above, there are also separatists who avoid the belief systems they grew up with due to their disbelief
   in the emotion called Faith.


It is established that in order for a deity to share its goodwill with an individual, the individual must feel the emotion called Faith. However, due to the nature of this emotion, as said above, not everybody has the luxury of such a direct relationship to their chosen deities.

Those who do not feel the emotion called Faith, whether they've never felt it or they're in a temporary slump, are referred to in Cadastrean Spirituality as "faithless". What may seem strange to some is that the faithless are not separated from the faithful by any mechanic of their belief.

Most faithful individuals adhere to the tenets of their belief in private, in fact. Family groups will usually share belief systems, but this is not an enforced part of Cadastrean Spirituality as a whole. Very few belief systems in Cadastrean Spirituality do involve whole families.

Because the majority of these belief systems do not have group support in place through the mechanic of their belief, the faithless are often left by the wayside, feeling disconnected from the deities, and feeling as though all their efforts towards the traditions are futile.

   In terms of world spirituality, faith is a relatively minor phenomena. Separatists from Cadastrean
   Spirituality - Separatists who believe that deities ignore individuals, and say that the emotion called
   Faith is a lie - garner no support from outsiders, since outsiders tend to distance themselves from the
   argument.

   The emotion called Faith is a concept which exists only in Cadastrean Spirituality. If those of other
   spiritualities and religions do experience this emotion, they certainly ignore it, or refuse to name it
   as such.


It may seem as though there is little support for the faithless in Cadastrean Spirituality, but nothing could be further from the truth. Cadastrean Spirituality has survived for as long as it has thanks to the construction and maintenance of churches all over the continent of Cadaster.

Though there are many hundreds of belief systems in Cadastrean Spirituality, the many churches in each of the major cities are varied enough that whatever belief system a faithless individual wishes to adhere to, they will find a congregation which suits them.

Congregations are led by at least one faithful member of the community who volunteers their life to this work, and many others volunteer a day here and there to help the faithless in the community. The majority of churches have a major function once a week where the faithful will engage in prayer rituals, which light the faithless with what is thought to be a different form of the emotion called Faith.

Many faithless do not spend long in the company of their congregations. Many faithless only need the slightest nudge into feeling the emotion called Faith. For the rest, attending their congregations gives them the sense of self-satisfaction that being faithless alone couldn't.

   In terms of world spirituality, churches and similar buildings for worship are a relatively common
   affair. The major difference between other styles of churches and Cadastrean Spiritual churches is that
   by comparison, they are barely adorned.


Compared to many other faiths, Cadastrean Spirituality is quite tolerant of difference. However, there is one form of difference that they will not tolerate.

There are many kinds of separatists in Cadaster. Those who deny the emotion called Faith, and call it a lie, are considered the most abhorrent. A large portion of the population are willing to call them evil. Most, however, pity them for being broken.

   In terms of world spirituality, atheists or agnostics are not uncommon. Entire cultures are based around
   the idea that whatever deities are out there, they hold no sway in the lives of any individual. However,
   separatists from Cadastrean Spirituality take this idea one step further by attempting to sway other
   faithless away from their spirituality.


[spoiler=original post]On the continent of Cadaster, the prominent civilisations have all come to some similarities in their belief systems, having evolved together for the past two or three thousand years.

The basic tenet of Cadastrean Spirituality is the people's belief in Faith, which is treated much like an emotion. Faith is like true love. An individual may go their entire life without ever actually feeling it, but this is not in itself considered a deficiency of a person's character.

The importance of Faith is that it is thought to give off a kind of aura, which spirits and deities will notice. The faithful are then showered with good luck. There is definitely evidence to support this theory.

Those who do not feel their Faith are the most common members of church groups and congregations. In fact, congregations are often made up entirely of the "faithless". The group leaders will engage in a type of prayer, and with this prayer, they believe that they can give some of their Faith to those who do not yet have their own.

Because of this, the "faithful" do not go to church often, and instead worship whichever beliefs they choose in the privacy of their own home. If a church or congregation matches their beliefs, they may go in every now and then, joining the leaders in prayer in an effort to strengthen the Faith being passed on to the faithless.

This method of giving the faithless a feeling of community reduces the risk of profound spiritual emptiness which can come from a lack of Faith.

Some faithless, however, go beyond merely lacking the complex emotion that is Faith, and instead deny that Faith exists at all. These separatists are relatively few and far between, and are often ostracised from their communities and societies, leading to lives of crime.

***

Thoughts? Anything else you guys would want to know? Is there something I'm missing?

Note: this is like an "Introduction to Abrahamic Religions", not an "Introduction to Judaism". Cadastrean Spirituality is a massive group of similar belief systems, and this is just the major commonality between them.[/spoiler]

The very scope of the questions you're asking... it's the exact reason that I shy away from alternate history projects in my writing. That said, I love alternate history, and if you hold your themes together really well, and avoid making Earth suddenly feel like a fantasy kitchen sink, this has the potential to be a really awesome setting with the right dose of familiarity of geography, but with everything else almost being a surprise.

It's also a cool explanation for why humans and Earth animals would actually exist in a fantasy setting with other fantasy creatures "tacked" on.

I really like the idea that the States would, instead of spreading across the continent, spread around the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean Sea. I'd love to see what the state of great American cities would be when they're surrounded by the likes of Macchu Picchu and all that sort of thing.

The Giants taking over the west coast is another bit I love. I recommend you spend a little bit of time looking into the utility of gold. There's a reason we call it our most useful metal, and it's as simple as it being that it just IS our most useful metal.

Without access to those lands where gold is really common (is it? I'm Australian, so I have no idea about where gold is in the States), the States would need to rely on overseas trade to get their gold in.

Given your timeline, though, due to my personal preferences, I'd be willing to take quite a strong look into what the life of Nikola Tesla would have been. Most of his greatest feats of electrical engineering happened in the United States before 1922, so there's a lot to wonder about. With the introduction of magic, what would his feats be?

Receives: strength of character

Inserts: dexterity of character

Receives: a man's name

Inserts: a single tear shed for something beautiful

Quote from: Love of Awesome
OOOHhhh!! Me! Me! Me!

I love speculative evolution! So who are the primary predators in this world? After Man has the rodents taking over the Carnivores. The mustelids take over as top predators in Future is Wild. Do you have anything special in mind?

I was going to mention Future Is Wild! There's nothing like bats with 8-metre wingspans to get the heart racing! And octopuses that fly through the trees like monkeys!

Personally, I think taking out the biggest predators was probably your best idea. I may use it to some degree in my setting, if that's okay. It gives you a lot of space to really have a think about what makes something into an efficient predator, and then you can exaggerate those features.

There are lines in Jurassic Park and Jurassic World about how nature gave us the most efficient killing machines/predators a hundred million years ago.

But, in truth, the most efficient predators we have alive today are humans, and none of the things that make us so efficient are as obvious as claws and teeth.

We have big toes which make us incredible runners. We cool by sweating, not panting, which means we can move faster while cooling just as efficiently. And we have opposable thumbs.

If you want truly awe-inspiring apex predators, I'd think of something that doesn't make your creature better at killing, but something that makes it better at hunting.

Quote from: Lmns Crn

QuoteNow that I think about it, a more conservative version that might work better with the standard rules would be a mask that would grant a couple of additional spells known to a spontaneous caster as long as it is worn, perhaps also with some thematic opportunity cost to wearing the mask.

If we want to hook it further into the arcane/divine divide, here...

Perhaps if divine magic represents being aided by spirits, then mask-based (arcane) magic represents deceiving spirits. Wearing a frost mask like the one detailed above would be like tricking weather spirits into aiding you, or disguising yourself as someone with authority over them. Or perhaps there's no real deception involved, and you're just assuming some kind of mystical spirit-commanding persona when you wear the mask.

Maybe this makes these characters feel less like wizards and more like some kind of shaman (which may or may not please you), but it opens up a lot of potential for drawbacks or other built-in complications: when you wear the frost mask, do spirits of warmth and heat oppose you? do powerful spirits of icy weather occasionally command you? do you take on some of the innate restrictions or weaknesses of spirits as a part of the assumption of that role?

I had a thought similar to this right before I read it. My main quibble with the base idea was that I can't tell how it works from an in-world perspective. What part of building the mask is magical? How do specific types of magic, manifesting as spells, get weaved into the mask if the wizard has to wear a mask to know the magic?

Tying it into the spiritual weapons is a really cool idea, in my opinion.

Using Martin's sword means having Martin's permission to use the sword. But whittling a mask which tricks a good or bad spirit into lending some of their power definitely seems wizardly. Instead of a spell book, perhaps they'd have a book where they write down all of their knowledge of spirits in an effort to catalogue and study so that they can build better masks in future.

Mostly, I just suggest that last bit because I'll always be a fan of making wizards more studious.

It's a really cool idea, and I wish you luck with it.

Hi, people. My name is Jon.

I'm a long time lurker on the CBG (like, four or five years long). I found it originally through The Cartographer's Guild, and now I've finally got a proper account to post and write and stuff.

I'm from Brisbane, Australia, but now I live with my girlfriend on the Gold Coast, and I work in Aged Care. I've been writing fiction since I was a kid, and only in the past five years or so have I begun to stop deluding myself into thinking it could be a career. I'm happier for it to be a hobby anyway, since I hate deadlines.

I've also always been into D&D and tabletop as an idea, but its only been in those past few years that I really started to find people who I could play with.

Now, I'm a huge fan of Dungeon World, and I'm really getting some work done on what probably amounts to my thousandth setting. But this is a setting I'd really like to put the hard yards into finishing.