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Show posts MenuQuote from: HoersRegarding the skills/resolution mechanic, it's not like the worlds found in Dark Souls couldn't use a wide array of skills, but the tone/message of the games has always been that you'll begin, progress, and end your quest through defeating enemies through combat (with choices with regards to NPC conversations, some item/environment uses, and sequence of completing areas influencing how you might end it). I think a system playing a Dark Souls world would almost necessitate being very combat-focused for this reason.That's fair, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't still be a simple out of combat task resolution system on top of that. D&D is also pretty combat-focused, but it always has rules for other tasks as well, because players will certainly try to apply their abilities out of combat. Even 4th edition, which was really focused around combat and didn't have a whole lot else, still had a basic skill system for out of combat stuff.
Quote from: HoersI don't think modding a game and jumping in would work - to get anywhere close I think you'd have to have everyone buy a copy of Dark Souls 3 (assuming they could run it) and make up a pile of houserules and strategies to make anything look remotely reasonable. You'd spend a lot of time just traveling through game areas to get to what you'd want to use to do this, countering the intended "fast" combat resolution.I meant modding it more extensively, so you'd have a custom map that was exactly where the fight was supposed to be, or whatever. It'd be quite a bit of work for the GM if it was even possible, so it isn't going to be practical for most games.
Quote from: HoersThis is another gimmick to provide lore to a gameplay mechanicI agree with this part of it. I do have to say, I think it might be that your great familiarity and enthusiasm for the Souls games mean that you may be immersed enough in the game's lore to perhaps miss just how video gamey this stuff looks to someone who isn't so acquainted with them. That's not to say these lore elements are all bad or the underlying mechanics are all inapplicable to tabletop gaming-- as you have noted, the idea of "summons" and "invasions" seems like it would work really well in a casual game where players can easily drop in and drop out.
Quote from: HoersThe other real looming problem is that if you're interested in the visceral, adrenaline-fueled combat of the game instead of just the tone, it'll be hard to do that regardless of how the system is built if there isn't some fancy graphical interface, so maybe that's the more important factor.This is also true, but on the other hand I feel like the right sort of system can capture some of the feeling of the combat (if not quite so adrenaline-fueled) if it has mechanics that lead to similar sorts of snap decisions that have to be made in the game.
Quote from: HoersThe skills are likely absent because the Souls games don't have them either - all resolutions are either through combat (where some boss and non-boss fights are optional), or through decisions that can have immediate- or long-term consequences. Given that the protagonist in the games only ever has their dialogue implied by these decisions and nothing else, such a limited resolution mechanic might not be enough, but it does have the "advantage" of being able to allow you to freely roleplay without having to worry about any restrictions (other than combat and environmental obstacles).I get that, but it seems like the tabletop game is trying to emulate the video game too closely. Open-ended gameplay where you can use lots of different skills to accomplish tasks is pretty difficult to put into a video game in a satisfying way, but with a DM to adjudicate things instead of having to only rely on predetermined outcomes, it becomes possible, and this added depth and increased capabilities can make up for some of the excitement that the video game has that a tabletop version will probably lack.
Quote from: HoersI wonder if this sort of system (possibly with changes) would work if there were a chat bot built to support all sorts of calculations for the players. This could be as simple as tracking stamina, and as complex as taking character "sheet" inputs and keeping a database of the derived stats, which is then queried whenever a combat action is taken. It seems like any system that is going to properly simulate the Souls feel is going to feature some way to make combat really fast - at least in comparison to more typical table-tops (I'd imagine a proper table-top Dark Souls game would feature combats lasting on the order of 2-5 minutes, as opposed to the 15+ that D&D battles can often occupy).I'm somewhat ambivalent about the merits of chat bot automation. I totally agree with you that fast combat is necessary, and slow dragging D&D-style combats would ruin the game. However, I also know that I tried to automate a lot of stuff related to the Asura system in sparkbot and all it really ever ended up doing was confusing people, and we barely ever used most of it. Perhaps I could have designed a clearer user interface, so I'm not totally turned off on the idea, but I'm also not sure how much it would help.
Quote from: HoersI had actually thought you'd like the respawn mechanic - I think it's a convenient middle-ground between our stances on character death.I don't like it because it seems like it's focused on forcing you to replay certain parts of the game, especially replaying combat. This is tolerable in a video game but I think it's terrible in a tabletop game.
Quote from: HoersOne of the major components of the game series however is the online summoning co-op/invading PvP aspect, and while there's no reason you can't play without it (speed-runners do it all of the time, as do a lot of first-time players), I feel like it wouldn't have the same feel if the risk of the random invader encounters wasn't there (especially where there's usually an area or two in each game that is specifically designed to be protected by these invading players and/or NPCs).Do you think the invading aspect is something that is actually important to the game's story, or is it mostly added to allow for a multiplayer aspect, which the tabletop game will already have by necessity? That is, is it something essential to the feeling of the world?
Quote from: SteerpikeOK, yes, if we're going to call that a rule, I would definitely agree that a lot of my players' and/or my own characters' off-the-sheet solutions rely on rules. That said, they're often rules made up for a specific creature or situation (these creepy leech-vampires I created) which the characters have to discover in play (sneaking into a room, reading a journal, experimenting), as opposed to a rule they found on a character sheet or in a rule book.Yeah, I said "could very well thought of" because I'm honestly kind of back and forth as to whether this is really the sort of thing that I'd call a rule, because it sort of is (in that it's a defined fact about the world with clear gameplay consequences) and it sort of isn't (because it's also very specific and a more of a fact about the setting) but in any case having definite facts about the world that can be found out does help with player agency, which is ultimately what I'm actually after with my constant harping on about rules and such.
Quote from: SteerpikeThat doesn't mean there can't be a pre-defined solution in mind, though, if there is enough information that someone can realistically reason the right outcome, as in the piggyback encounter.To an extent, sure, though it seems too easy for a puzzle with a single pre-defined solution and not a lot of wiggle room to turn into a "guess what the DM is thinking" sort of situation, and that's no fun for anyone. This is probably another case where I don't have quite as much confidence in the the DM (as in, in the abstract idea of "the DM," not a specific person) as you do.
Quote from: SteerpikeI want players to think their way around the uncertain/sticky situations by concocting clever, unorthodox solutions to problems, some of which I might have pre-imagined, but others which are wholly novel. If I'm playing, I want to do this myself.Me too, for the most part.
Quote from: SteerpikeBy making the default or obvious solutions to problems extremely risky, upping the danger associated with them, or decreasing player character capabilities in some way (playing with weak characters), unorthodox thinking is incentivized.I'm basically on board here, too, as long as it's also clear that the unorthodox solutions are likely to be safer, which is probably how it works but not necessarily. I mean, in a sadistic sort of negadungeon game the DM may put in weird ideas that end up being even more dangerous... that's a little too much of a 'gotcha' design to me, but some of the oldschool Gygaxian death dungeons did stuff like this.
Quote from: SteerpikeWhile characters should have some competencies (especially ones that already incline themselves to interesting solutions), and the system's rules do need to be there to provide structure when necessary, unorthodox solutions will often depend more on specific environmental or unique "rules" and require less dice-rolling or standard applications of character abilities than the obvious solutions.I think this is where you kind of lose me. I understand what you're saying, but this kind of situation also has the potential to turn into a railroad really quickly. I think you're a good enough DM that you'd avoid doing that, for the most part, but it's a very real risk, especially in games that aren't as richly developed and dynamic as yours.
Quote from: SteerpikeThat's true, but that doesn't mean they necessarily need rolls.Right, and I probably should have made it more clear that the thing that I am advocating for here is not rolls but rules. The two often go together, but it's also important to have at least some codified idea what your character can just do, without a roll, in order to have a sense of your capabilities and place in the world. Knowing what you can do without a roll is, of course, even more important in a game where the rolls are likely to be stacked against you, because you'll probably be trying to avoid having to push your luck.
Quote from: SteerpikeAgain, I am not anti-rules or something.I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were. I think the disconnect is that I see uncertainty and sticky situations where you may not, so I'm looking for rules to fall back on in places that you probably won't. For example, since I mentioned meta-rules above, I very much like how Fate is structured, with the idea of being less about rules that tell what happens and more about rules that exist to tell how to tell the story in a way that players retain agency and have certain codified levels of narrative control. You'd probably prefer to not do this quite as much, due to the way it can be immersion-breaking.
Quote from: SteerpikeMy method of play here is in no sense DM-proof. And it's also the case that other styles or methods of play that rely less on DM judgment - i.e. where the rules are much more front-and-centre much more of the time - might be more fun than a game run poorly in the style I'm describing.Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think you're a good DM, so I don't want to bash on you or anything; maybe you're a good enough DM to even be able to pull this stuff off, but I feel like that's not the usual case, so I tend to advocate for solutions that are a little more tolerant of human error.
Quote from: SteerpikeOne way to think about the kind of thing I'm talking about is that the off-the-sheet solutions I'm imagining tend to involve considerably less uncertainty.This makes sense, and I like your list of examples, but your examples are still features in the dungeon that you're thinking of as possible solutions to this problem-- which of course means you've already accounted for them, so they aren't in the realm of uncertainty. I know that you're making up the whole example yourself, so it's basically impossible for you to do anything but, since you can't make a list of things that you haven't thought of. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that in a real game the players are going to think of some things that you haven't accounted for, and perhaps try to use items they have or character abilities or features of the dungeon or whatever in ways that you didn't anticipate they ever would. I tried to throw out a few possibilities in my last post about a cryomancer and a magic flute, or whatever, as examples of things that the DM might not have thought of, and you responded:
Quote from: SteerpikeAnd some of those solutions will require tons of rules and some will require very few and many will require on-the-fly rulings because no system can be comprehensive about everything.This is a true statement, but it doesn't seem to me to mesh very well with your other idea that creative solutions are somehow reducing uncertainty. Unless they're the exact creative solutions that the DM planned for in advance, I guess? It really seems like there's a need for something more concrete here. To go on with that idea...
Quote from: SteerpikeIf a creative solution to a problem is going to involve as much uncertainy and risk as the straightforward solution, it's essentially a redundant or pointless solution. But if it serves to mitigate risk and uncertainty, it becomes worthwhile.This makes sense to me, but in the absence of a system that includes mechanics that support the kinds of tasks the players are reasonably expected to do, how are the players supposed to even know that? If there is no real mechanical support for the players' actions so the DM is more or less making up everything ad hoc, how are the players supposed to have any idea what's possible beyond a lengthy and possibly frustrating (for both sides) Q&A session? I know that no rules can be truly comprehensive, and there's always going to be DM ruling and a certain degree of questioning and negotiation to get to that ruling, but I also feel like it's important to have some idea what their chances are, and this is especially true in a situation where any time the dice come out the odds are likely to be stacked against them.
Quote from: SteerpikeAn extremely good example from a game I'm playing in currently (this was last night, in fact).Maybe I'm not getting the full nuance of the situation, or I'm reading things very uncharitably, but this seems more like the sort of rigorous solution that doesn't really count because it's one specific thing that has been predefined by the DM to always lead to automatic success. I mean, sometimes puzzles in RPGs work like that, but I generally prefer more open-ended sorts of things, because it can be annoying otherwise-- it's no fun to just be stuck, and it eats up valuable play time. When thing are open-ended, though, that means the solution is often going to be something the DM never thought of.
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