The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: Ghostman
Why are demonic fires so docile?

After further review, demonic (or Descendant) flames are not docile at all.  They may appear to be in order to lull the demonologist into a false sense of security, but they are patient, malicious, and cunning.

Quote from: Steerpike
What happens when an Ascendant fire and an awakened fire (divine, demonic, what-have-you) meet?

The Ascendant fire can control an Awakened fire much like a spellcaster can attempt to control an elemental.  It can also "imprint" memories on other fires.  I am still working on the mechanics.

If it comes into contact with a Descendant (demonic) flame then confrontation is inevitable, vicious, and fatal (for at least one of the combatants).

Quote from: LordVreeg

Quote from: Porklet

Quote from: LordVreeg
What about the other elements?
In many systems, there might be a system/setting dissoncance created.
Any system where fire is used in magic (like a D&D fireball) will be affected thus.

The other elements are covered under the Noun group called Matter.  It will be either Air, Water, and Earth or Gas, Liquid, and Solid (with scientific skills governing what a caster can and cannot do).  Matter also covers Plant/Wood.  If anything, to describe the system in a classical elemental format the elements would be Air, Earth, Water, and Plant.

Only things with a consciousness can be Communed with.  I don't want spell casters communing with rocks and walls.  Living plants, on the other hand, do exist in the Ethereal, and they can be communicated with via spell.

I meant what gaming system.  You can overlay as much setting as you want, but the physics engine will eventually take over.

A syntactic magic system in GURPS.  It can use the existing spells as a guide, and it probably will.  I don't think I understand what you mean by dissoncance.  Of course, it could be because I was drinking for the first time in months that night.

Quote from: Ghostman
Why are demonic fires so docile?
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Quote from: Ghostman
Why are demonic fires so docile?

Because the demon's reach is limited.  The fire does afford a bonus to commune, summon, and gate, but the fire lacks an intelligence.  It can go "wild", but it serves a "lower" purpose.

I will try to be brief...

Fire is a living thing, but it is unintelligent and lacks will, of any kind.  It acts and behaves just as fire, as we know it, does.  It exists in the ethereal as a "divine spark" and is associated with all Divine Facets:  Light, Truth, Love, Purity, Creation, Thought, Ascension, and Order (as a piece of the puzzle).

However, there are two kinds of fire that do possess a higher consciousness and a will.  The fires started by the Ethebians in the First Age of man when gods walked the earth.  These fires are called Ascendant fires.  They can breed other lesser ascendant fires, can commune with spellcasters, and have a will and sentience of their own.  Once they are extinguished they cannot be relit.  However, on ancient "fire" sites a sizable and pious group of followers can rekindle an ascendant flame, but it will have lost all memories and skills.  There are a number of ascendant fires still burning, and there are sanctified sites where the fires have gone out.


The second kind of sentient fire is an "awakened" flame.  The magical system is identical to the "spells" used by the gods, but the only differences are humans have limited knowledge and fatigue to power the spells in question.  Fire produced by spells of any type (divine, demonic, or magical) can produce a fire with a consciousness on a critical failure/success (depending on the effect desired).  These fires are totally autonomous and can reproduce other awakened fires.  Divine fires will manifest personalities consistent with their deity.  Magical fires are "wild" fires and must be contained.  Demonic fires are completely docile, and they are a channel to the demonic hierarchy.

I will use many of the same rules I have outlined above regarding accelerants, natural fires, etc.  I have a list of the sites, and some examples of their uses, but I will post them a bit later.  I am drunk, and I am afraid I am not making any sense.

Quote from: Seraphine_Harmonium
The "element" system of the Celts (insofar as it existed) might be useful here.  The Celts did not have "elements" per se, but our understanding of the four elements relates in Celtic life as follows:

Earth, water, and air, or "Land, Sea, and Sky" represented three different worlds.  They were similar in that they were large spans you could move across or through.  Fire was different to them, though.  Fire was a sacred thing that connected them.

There were also ritual fire festivals, wherein all the fires in the land would be extinguished and re-kindled from the burning branches from a giant bonfire in the center of the kingdom.  This sounds like it fits in with the idea that only certain fires lit from an enchanted fire (or the first fire) are "Fires" and have life of their own.

That fits perfectly.  I have decided to have "ascendant" fires that were started by the gods themselves; in a distant age when gods walked the earth.  Your last point will hold true in one faith that has "fires" in each of its temples.  Each of these fires carries the consciousness of the original "fire", but it cannot reproduce new "fires".

I also have toyed with "fire" being an ethereal being and "connecting" people, as you suggested.  Thanks.

I have an overview of what I have so far, and I will post it momentarily...

Quote from: LordVreeg
What about the other elements?
In many systems, there might be a system/setting dissoncance created.
Any system where fire is used in magic (like a D&D fireball) will be affected thus.

The other elements are covered under the Noun group called Matter.  It will be either Air, Water, and Earth or Gas, Liquid, and Solid (with scientific skills governing what a caster can and cannot do).  Matter also covers Plant/Wood.  If anything, to describe the system in a classical elemental format the elements would be Air, Earth, Water, and Plant.

Only things with a consciousness can be Communed with.  I don't want spell casters communing with rocks and walls.  Living plants, on the other hand, do exist in the Ethereal, and they can be communicated with via spell.

Quote from: Steerpike
This could be really cool.  You could always have fire and then Fire - the former being mundane, unliving fire, the latter some kind of awakened/magical/divine fire - perhaps only created when a certain type of wood is burned, like wood from a sentient and/or holy tree, or perhaps only created when fuel is burnt in the proper enchanted/blessed hearth.

That is true.  Then I wouldn't have to worry about Farmer John burning down his barn because he was foolish enough to carry a torch out into the rain.  I could limit the number of "ascended" fires.  That would solve a lot of problems.  I am almost certainly going to incorporate your idea, but I want to think on it first.  Thanks Steerpike.

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
Hehe, Kindling was the first to come to the Fire.
Anyway, of those life characteristics I think one of them is homeostasis which basically means you have to keep your body's temperature and chemical balance constant. If anything, fire does the opposite of that?

That has nothing to do with this question though, so my apologies. I like how your mention of accelerants sort of implies that certain chemicals makes fire go mad. I think you need to establish exactly what the fire is. How intelligent is it? Is it a hive collective of thousands upon thousands of embers or is it all one flame, one thought?
Is it even locomotive? I could imagine fire as perhaps a sort of flailing amorphous tentacled creature (I will never look at my fireplace the same way again...), but just like we humans can't stand on a slippery incline perhaps the flames can't get a foothold on anything non-flammable. Essentially, as long as you keep them properly contained they pose no harm. They might be more mobile than this, but that would definitely change a lot! Domestication or magic seems like a "reasonable" way to go about controlling them in that case.    
I feel like this would have a fairy tale-ish influence on your setting's tone.

I had given thought to locomotion already.  I had determined that it cannot pass over anything that is not "fuel".  When it does pass over fuel it can grow or it can simply cross over it.  Other thoughts:

Attributes:  No strength since it is insubstantial, highly dextrous, animal intelligence (varies), and hit points are based entirely on size (I haven't come up with a suitable range yet).

Combat:  Can lash out and do torch damage or greater (depending on size again).  Cannot be harmed by weapons, insubstantial.  Can be smothered, blown out, drowned, and takes direct damage from water.  Causes burn damage and can throw fire causing damage or creating other fires.  Can choose not to burn fuel and can suppress heat.  This last entry is limited to very old fires.

Locomotion:  As mentioned, fire can pass over fuels, consuming them or not.  Unless it has gone "wild" the fire creeps along very slowly.  When frightened or enraged it can leap up to half its size in distance and can "run" very fast.  A 20' fire at its base could leap 10'.  In no case can it move across water, nor would it want to.  Only wild fires would even attempt to cross water of any size.

Temperment:  Fires created in a controlled setting would take on characteristics of that setting in regards to the powers that be.  Fires started purposefully are more calm than others, in the beginning.  Fires started by a violent ignition start off wild:  lightning strikes, flaming arrows striking a wall, fireball spells, explosions, etc.  Fires that are exposed to an accelerant go wild unless a Will check can be passed at -4.  Fire threatened by water of any kind will react poorly. This could range from cowering to fleeing at the greatest possible speed (wild) or attacking (wild).  A Will check required to avoid going wild with bonuses for elder fires.  If a wild fire is cornered on all sides and becomes exceptionally enraged or frightened then it can "push" itself and grow in intensity.  This cannot go on for very long, and ultimately will result in the fire blowing itself out.  Wild fires can also cause other fires to "stampede" unless a Will check is made.  The fire does not do this consciously.

Consciousness:  The syntactic magic system has four Nouns groups Corporeal (including Beast), Ethereal (Consciousness), Energy (including Fire), and Matter.  Fire falls within all of them except for Matter.  Since it has a consciousness it has memories, thoughts, etc.  It does not, however, have eyes.  It can sense thru the Ethereal, and as a result any one who Communes with Fire will have the same information.  The fire cannot show you what the room looked like or smelled like or even what could be heard.  But you could sense other living things that were near the fire and know what they said, what they heard, and sometimes even what they were thinking (depending on your skill level with the spell).

A fire is defined as a single entity derived from a single spark.  If a fire should split it would become 2 separate fires with the larger of them retaining the identity of the first.  If two fires combine only the dominant fire would carry on and add the second fire to itself in the physical and the Ethereal.  For example, in a tradition where a recently deceased person's "fire" was taken to the temple and added to the eternal flame then the eternal flame would take in the smaller and younger fire along with its Ethereal impressions (allowing magic capable descendants to come to the temple and commune with their ancestors).  Two fires of equal strength and age could simply pass thru each other, but if a battle for control breaks out then both fires go wild and a contest of wills would erupt (almost literally).

I have also toyed with the idea of allowing personality traits for fires much like some games do for animals.  I am uncertain.  Also, unlike other Beasts fire can be bound into an item like Energy.

I have a notion to make Fire a living thing in my campaign world.  I got the idea from a priesthood I was designing that consulted the temple fire when faced with a problem with no clear solution.  Then I wondered, what if the Fire talked back?  Since my magic system does not allow for Communication with inanimate objects I got the idea to give Fire consciousness.  I am not certain why I keep capitalizing the word Fire, but it's too late to stop now.

It's born, it propagates, and it dies.  Fire breathes, consumes, and excretes ashes.  On the surface, it's simply a non-corporeal being of energy.  However, there are some logistical issues to consider.  The simplest torch could wind up setting loose an angry beast indoors.  Hearths and camp fires could easily become death traps.  It would fundamentally alter mankind's relationship with Fire.  What would it fear?  What does it want or need, other then kindlin'?  What would make it angry and cause it to run wild?

These are some possibilities:
1. Fires started by natural causes (lightning strikes, lava flows) spark a Fire that is wild in nature and cannot be tamed.  It will consume as much and grow as large as it can as quickly as it can.  Kind of like a stampede.  This is also holds true for existing Fires that are introduced to an accelerant, Greek Fire, flaming arrows, etc.
2. Fires started in a ritual space will take on aspects of the space's intended use.  For example, Fire in the temple of a god dedicated to altruism and healing will house a tame and benign fire while those sparked in a secret room used to summon demons might produce a Fire that is malicious and violent if not properly contained.
3. Domesticated fires?  If a family or village uses the same fire, and keeps it burning then the Fire might develop an affinity for the populace.  It won't burn their houses.  It won't wander beyond its boundaries.
4. Simple magics that compel Fire to live where it is intended.  For example, a lamp with runes that hold a fire in its place, and as long as the lamp or the Fire's fuel is not in jeopardy the Fire will contently burn.
5. Fire can be communicated with using the right spells, and as long as a Fire burns it retains all that it surveys.  This goes back to the original idea of the temple fire.  If the Fire burned in the temple for hundreds of years it could have been witness to countless religious debates, ceremonies, and the like.  A tremendous source of wisdom and information.

If you all have any ideas I would to love to hear them.  I really like the idea, but I am not sure it's worth the trouble.

Quote from: Seraphine_Harmonium
It is certainly evocative and mysterious.  I think it gets across what you intended it to.  Good job.

I like the extended Haiku motif, if for no other reason than its novelty.  It stands out.

Thank you.

It works for the creation myth.  I was trying to pose as many questions as answers to the reader.  It gets across the general theme and only touches on detail.  I could also get away with enigmatic records for the myth since it predated written human history.

I had to abandon the Haiku for the second part.  Partially because I was Haiku'd out, and the second part deals entirely with the history of humanity.  That subject requires more detail.  I am thinking of making the second part "50 Events in Human History that Shaped the World."  It would allow me to expound on a subject, introduce related events that followed, and still allow me the freedom to jump from topic to topic.  I get bored so easily.

Quote from: Humabout
What I like the most is that it reads like scripture.  It feels like it could be a religious text somewhere.  I really wish I could create something like this for some of my games, but I never have the inspiration or the time or the talent.  Your players are in for a treat.

Thanks for your kind words.  It wasn't intended to sound like scripture, but that is a happy accident.  I was using the shortened format of the Haiku to keep me focused and avoid digression.  I could go on and on with the story, and that was what I was trying to avoid.  Thanks again.

I decided that since my attention span is far to short to write a creation myth in prose.  So, I decided to express it in the form of Haiku's.  3 Parts, of 5, 7,and 5 Chapters made up of 5, 7, and 5 Haiku.  Sort of a Haikubed, if you will.  I finished the first Part, and I decided that I didn't have another 204 Haiku's in me.  Haiku-rumba, that's a lot of verses.  Tense varies wildly, it's meant to be enigmatic, and don't throw tomatoes you'll only get your monitor wet.

It had to be attached as a .pdf, because it is in 3-column form.  Sorry about that.  The .pdf is below.

EDIT:  I have decided to use the word decided less when I post...starting tomorrow.

I have fleshed out the ideas in a narrative located at the Thread below.  Thanks again.

http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?206345.last

I had started a thread where I had gotten some good ideas regarding cultural development.  The writings below have incorporated some of those ideas.  I was looking for some feedback and ideas regarding the societal changes after they fell under a curse that prevented them from aging, details below.

Any ideas or feedback is greatly appreciated.  Thanks.



The Elbonen lived on the rocky sub-arctic island of Orum with their living gods Velda and Thevar.  Each represented a facet of the Divine Concordance 'Truth'; Velda the Mortal (Honesty & Integrity) and Thevar the Immortal (Principle & Reality).  This occurred during the Godsmarch, when the gods walked the earth.  Not long after the gods' arrival the demons of Argul reached unseen into the world thru Morthasa, the First Gate.  It was then that the divine pair and their mortal followers were assailed by demonic magic.

The Elbonen and their gods were thrice struck by the demons.  Velda was stricken by Tlikiks: Demon Lord of Contagion.  As she lay dying Thevar was seduced away by Sindra: the Primarchess of Love and taken to the demonic plane of Argul and held there by Galaphus: Demon-Prince of Sacrilege.  The Elbonen people were then subjected to a third and final demonic assault.  They were cursed with agelessness by Slortok: Primarch of Stagnation.  News of this curse was delivered by Belosh:  Lord of Damnation.  

The Elbonen still needed to eat, sleep, and breathe, but they never matured physically.  Infants remained infants, children remained children, and, worst of all, pregnant women never gave birth.  There would be no more Elbonen offspring.  Dying was all that was left, and when they passed their souls would go to Argul; as they were Tainted by demonic magic.  They would not pass to Etheb and join their god.  They would not sit beside them and await a return to life to further serve the divine.  They would become Arguloam.

 Velda, amidst her death throes, summoned the three most prominent and capable Elbonen to her side:  Orum XVIII, Garum, and Meitra the Veldex.  To these three she taught the Syntactic Magic combination of Control Create Magic.  This is the basis for the magical Formology known as Orumitics.  And with her dying breath she gave the Elbonen people the ability to use such magic.

Over the course of the next few centuries Elbonen society went thru a massive transformation.  The worshippers of Velda blindly hung onto her memory until weeping they turned to each other.  The Veldexa still exists, and it serves the Elbonen people.  They are caregivers, healers, and mothers to all Elbonen children.  The Thevarexa also exists as an educational institution, but it has a dark and dangerous secret.  The bulk of the populace turned to Orum; now known as the Everking.   The people of the Houses Three were known as the Veld, the Orumites, and the Garumites.

Societal relationships began to break down.  Family lines were severed as the age difference between parent and offspring blurred over the course of centuries.  New communities were formed around magical Words of Power as the Orumitic Formology grew in scope and potency.  Even the culture itself began to coalesce around the magic; not only as a means of salvation but on a mundane level.  Every aspect of Elbonen daily life centered upon the proliferation of magic and its use in their daily lives.  The development of magical industry gave the average Elbonen a world of freedom and the personal power to exploit it.  Over time the Elbonen lifestyle became more and more eccentric as they sought to fill their limitless time with every form of entertainment and endeavor they could find.

The study and growth of the Formology was culture-wide, but the three originators of Orumitics had decidedly different ideas about how to best use it.  The three Houses of Orum, Garum, and Meitra began to differentiate in their Orumitic theories and practices.  While the Orumites concentrated on the mundane uses and aspects of the Formology the Veld focused on the magic's relationship with the greater world as a path back to divinity.  Both Houses were generous with knowledge and education as a form of communal responsibility and divine right, respectively.  Neither was a religion as much as a movement based on a moral imperative.  The followers of Garum took a very different approach.  They were secretive with their findings, and the things they learned would shake the world.  

A religion began to form around the fallen Thevarexa.  They sought to bring Thevar back.  They had no idea he had been trapped in Argul by Galaphus, Primarch of Sacrilege.  Garum sought out his god using every means at his disposal, and when those had run out he invented new means.  His powerful exploits drew the attention of the Primarch of Knowledge: Mortume.  He sent Nihilth, Hearld of Knowledge, Lord of Fools, to contact Garum himself.  He was given the 4th Rite and the True Name of Mortume.  With this information Garum sought to open the Fifth Gate and allow Mortume not only to reach into the world but to move to and from Argul without hindrance.  The rites were so powerful that they required human sacrifice to function.  Garum himself was unsure whether he could be party to such an act, but soon his conscience and his cause found solace in the form of the Black Stair.

After the Curse fell upon the Elbonen many took their own lives in hopes of following their gods to Etheb or out of a sense of hopelessness.  Over time this cult had become a constant but unrecognized sub-culture.  Those who wished to give in to the inevitable, for a myriad of reasons, could find aide and instructions through the dark priesthood known as the Black Stair.  Every now and again the priesthood would come under fire from some prominent citizen or the Veldexa itself.  Garum came forward in defense of religious tolerance, and he fought for the Black Stair's right to their beliefs. This brought the dark priesthood into his fold.  This brought him the prospect of human sacrifice without having to lift a finger.  



Later the Garumites will require more potent sacrifices to hold the gate open, and they will turn to infant sacrifice.  The Veld will learn of this and flee the land.  Once the Orumites find out they attack and expel the Garumites who then seek out the Veld.  This leads to the Garumites and Veld settling in two separate locations.  I don't want to go any further until I have fleshed out the culture.  I want it to have an alien feel given their circumstances.  No idea too strange.

NOTE:  I had to incorporate the names of certain entities and terms into the writing so that I wouldn't lose track of their place in the mythos and rest of the campaign world.  I thought about including a Glossary of Names.  If anyone thinks it necesary, or would like to see it, drop me a Reply.  Thanks.