"Lovecraft Holmes" Discussion Thread

[HippopotamusDundee]

Discussion thread for the "Lovecraft Holmes" (title very much a work in progress given its overall cringe-worthiness) setting, the main thread for which can be found here. (For those who may be interested, the system thread can be found here)

[Xathan]

I'm so excited to see this develop! I'm hoping it kickstarts my urge to work on Terra Macabe again. :)

Initial question; are you planning on using Lovecraft's actual Great Old Ones/Beasts, or creating new ones? Or keeping it Vague the way Neil Gaiman did in Study in Emerald?

[HippopotamusDundee]

Initial question; are you planning on using Lovecraft's actual Great Old Ones/Beasts, or creating new ones? Or keeping it Vague the way Neil Gaiman did in Study in Emerald?

Most probably I'll be taking the same approach Gaiman did - combining 'classic' GOO (The Black One of Egypt &The Ancient Goat, Father to a Thousand) and original GOO (The White Lady of the Antarctic Fastness & He Who Presides over the New World) but with enough change and variance that they all fit together within the specific needs and themes of "Lovecraft Holmes". Additionally I probably won't be able to help myself from just plain changing things because I had a cool idea, so Lovecraftian purism definitely won't be the name of the game.

The answer re. monsters and beasties is likely the same though with much more creation/alteration to include appropriately twisted elements of British folklore and superstition (I'm thinking of tying the maggot-god Crom-Cruach, for example, to some kind of a Dhole equivalent of Father Dagon).

[Xathan]

Sounds like a great way to handle it - can't want to see your GOO's.

Also, Dhole Equivalent of Father Dagon tied to Crom-Cruach - DO WANT!

[Xathan]

The opening quote makes me giggle; and best of all, given the common pronunciation of R'lyeh, it keeps the meter intact! (Well, at least the pronunciation I use).

I'm actually not familiar with Carcosa - is that from the mythos or your own creation?

Love the very evocative feeling of the writing - feels very Mythos to me. I am curious about Quiescence - what is that? :)

[HippopotamusDundee]

The opening quote makes me giggle; and best of all, given the common pronunciation of R'lyeh, it keeps the meter intact! (Well, at least the pronunciation I use).

Well, Shakespeare still existed in the world of Lovecraft Holmes, his corpus of works was just slightly different.

I'm actually not familiar with Carcosa - is that from the mythos or your own creation?

More from the post-Mythos expansion than anything else - Lovecraft makes stray references but later writers are the ones who run away with it. In short summary it's a distance planet/plane of existence (slightly ambiguous) where Hastur the Unspeakable is a major power.

Love the very evocative feeling of the writing - feels very Mythos to me. I am curious about Quiescence - what is that? :)

Why thank you ;)

The Quiescence was the millenia-long period between the prehistoric rule of the Great Old Ones and the Return in 1181.

As you're the main reader at the moment (or commentator, anyway) and they seem your areas of interest, it looks like History and 'Mythos Geography' will be next in line.

[Xathan]

Weeee! Let's get to it:

The Void-Called
Natives of the primordial darkness of the interstellar gulf, there are Things that have adapted to survive in the chill black void between the stars. Primitive and wholly alien, their limbs and organs and very existence follow no taxonomy of either logic or transcendent madness, bred as they were in the shadowed and primordial reaches of existence where the light of what little order can exist in a universe deformed by the presence of the Great Old Ones gutters out and dies.

Adapted for the fathomless entropy of the cosmic deeps, their nature is far removed from terrestrial-adapted life – their locomotive forces, their natural weaponry and even their flesh exist in opposition to nature as understood through man's limited apprehension of reality.

But this innate otherness has not stopped mankind from recognizing their uses – even during the long sorrow of the Great Old One's absence, conjurers and magi pored over ancient and dusty tomes to learn the secrets of summoning the dwellers in the outer darkness, calling them down those atramentous tendrils of the stellar void that reached even as far as Earth and which, with the Return, widened into tenebrous rivers down which the Void-Called now slither and squirm at will.

They include among their number the Star Vampires, the Hounds of Yeth, Astral Mantles, Tindalosi and the Wisps from Colos.

Okay, I love these guys, and part of it I admit was the illustration of a Star Vampire killing off Shadow Elves a little while back in UD. :P How well do these things fare in an atmosphere? How big of a threat are they? How common are they? And how well do they work with people who summon them?

The Star-Spawn
Whether favoured servitors, in-thrall slave-races or biological tools, the creations of the Great Old Ones are as numerous and varied as their methods of production – budded off from Their upper-dimensional flesh, given life where Their ichorous fluids have fallen, warped by Their will and presence alone.

Equipped with a greater or lesser degree of sentience and free will (or at least what humans would recognize as such) at the wishes of the Great Old One who spawned them, the Star-Spawn are largely non-humanoid and indeed non-terrestrial in nature – though they may incorporate some elements of recognizable fauna (or indeed flora or fungus), their anatomy is not dependent upon carbon as most native species are (including the Remnants, former Star-Spawn abandoned during the Quiescence who have evolved to survive on Earth unaided) and is unmistakeable even in its basic components by any man of science.

Though their obedience may be compelled by various forms of occult science, the Starspawn are bound utterly and inextricably to the existence and will of the Great Old Ones. It is the presence of the Ancients that facilitates their survival in the oxygen and carbon-rich atmosphere of Earth and the existence of the Ancients that fuels their unnatural and eldritch life, and the Starspawn could no more think of betraying or harming a Great Old One than they could develop a sense of empathy for mortal beings.

They include among their number the Deep Ones, Byakhee, Dark Young, Moon Beasts and Hunting Horrors.

I like the way you're putting Mythos creatures in here to provide a groundwork. Are you going to have your own? The Star Spawn are interesting - I like that they are completely enthralled to the GOOs. Are they "specialised" - do individual GOOs prefer particular Star Spawn as servitors, or do they all use what they can? Are their any rogue Starspawn, or all ALL of them bound? Is it possible they could be "released" from influence? Does lack of Empathy for mortals means instant hostility? Also, where do intelligent things like Mi-Go, Elder Things, and their like fit into this beastiary (they don't seem to fit anywhere else below either).

The Remants
Devolved or inchoate forms of now-extinct Star-Spawn from the countless span of years the Great Old Ones ruled before the coming of the Quiescence, the Remnants were abandoned as the Ancients one by one fell, passed into death-slumber or retreated to their seats of power to wait out the long years before the stars would be right again. Though some of the most favoured or valuable Star-Spawn departed along with the Great Old Ones, the remainder were left bereft, purpose and protection stripped from them to leave them drifting aimlessly and slowly dying in a hostile and inhospitable world.

The Remnants fell like flies as the toxic composition of Earth took its toll without the Great Old Ones to protect them, and those that survived were the few who retreated; to the steamy depths of trackless jungles, the icy peaks of impassable mountains, the crushing depths of the oceans and into labyrinthine tunnels beneath the earth.

As they waited through the countless years for the Ancients to return and reshaped their own little corners of the world into things less inimical, the Remnants dwindled and diminished - alien biology becoming terrestrial as they adapted to their new circumstances, though their anatomy remained as bizarre and aberrant as ever. And so it was that after the Return, when the Remnants crawled out of their lairs to greet the Great Old Ones they discovered they were no longer bound to them; not dependent on them for their continued existence and no longer bound to their will.

They include among their number the Ghul, the Tcho-Tcho, the Voormis, the Rat-Things and the Men of Leng.

Quick aside; where do the Men of Leng appear in the stories? I've heard them mentioned all over the place but never actually read them in anything. Are the Remnants more...amicable, I suppose would be the word, to mortals, seeing as they are fairly carbonish. How do they feel about the GOOs return? How powerful are they? Do they have their own societies? Are they still relegated to the distant corners of the world, or do they integrate among mortals? How do mortals feel about the Remnants? How do the GOOs?

The Royal-Kin
The call of blood is a powerful one - the siren song of genetic destiny throbbing through every bone and muscle to the triple-beat of an inhuman heart - and so it is with the scions of the Ancients. Those rare humans blessed or cursed with the heritage of the Great Old Ones can never escape the irresistible call of their nonhuman ancestry - for blood will always tell. The Royal-Kin are set inexorably apart from their fellow mortals by their Otherness, both physiological and psychological (though the degree of difference depends on the generations removed); regardless of how they were raised and nurtured or what they were taught, the lowliest cast-out bastard and the most pureblooded of princes will grow to be equally monstrous in both the twisted beauty of their form and their empathyless and unpitying hearts.

They include among their number Albion's Dagonites (more commonly known there as 'Queenkin'), the Satyr-sons of China's Ancient Goat and the Black Men of Egypt.

The shortest entry in here is the one I'd love to hear the most about; from a player standpoint, it sounds like these are actually playable (a young Royal-Kin, that is, with their impending loss of empathy hanging over their heads). How do humans react to Royal-Kin? How many degrees removed does it still show? Do any retain enough humanity to still relate to the other half of their heritage? How hostile/alien are they? Do they always serve their 'sire'?

Shoggoths
Living weapons created to be wholly obedient and utterly deadly, a Shoggoth (the closest approximation the human tongue can manage to the High Tongue verb zhax'qoth, meaning the act of consumption and aggressive growth), is a peerless predator capable of evolving its protoplasmic flesh into any weapon, defense or other hunting tool it might require.

Usually storing most of its body-mass in various upper dimensions, a dormant Shoggoth is about the size of a hansom cab but when hunting it will begin to draw the rest of its substance down into the limits of three-dimensional space, swelling it until it begins to approach the size of a small house. Once a Shoggoth's aggressive instincts have been activated, it will tirelessly and relentlessly pursue its prey until it either loses the trail (unlikely, given the near-infinite range of sensory organs and adaptations it can grow if required), is called off or has carried out its orders, at which point it will shrink back down to its resting size and return to dormancy.

Shoggoth defy most attempts at taxonomy made by human hands - there are as many ways to manufacture one as there are Shoggoths, and though there are some superficial differences between different 'breeds' they are similar enough to still be characterized as zhax'qoth. Whether brewed in ichorists labs, spawned by the Great Old Ones or devolved from ancient and inchoate speciments over the long years of the Quiescence, all are Shoggoths and all are equally dangerous and deadly.
[/quote]

Shoggoths are awesome. Have any human Occultists managed to tame one? Do they pose a threat to other Elder Things? To the Great Old Ones? Do the GOOs go to war with each other, or do they use Shoggoths against rogue humans? Did the Elder Things exist and make them, or are they now dead at their creations hands? Do rogue Shoggoths exist?

[HippopotamusDundee]

The Void-Called

Okay, I love these guys, and part of it I admit was the illustration of a Star Vampire killing off Shadow Elves a little while back in UD. :P How well do these things fare in an atmosphere? How big of a threat are they? How common are they? And how well do they work with people who summon them?

Earth's atmosphere proves no obstacle or impediment to the Void-Called - adapted to the harshest environment of the universe (the 'Abyss') as they are, such petty dangers as our planet possesses do not threaten them at all.

As for how dangerous they are, there is very much a range - a single Wisp is nearly insignificant but may the Ancients save you should you anger a swarm of them, while a single Tindalosi would threaten even one of the most pureblooded of the Royal-Kin.

The Void-Called are numerous within the Abyss but are relatively uncommon on Earth itself - though their unusual forms of transportation mean that should enough be summoned by a Great Old One or a powerful and/or foolhardy enough sorcerer that situation could quickly shift.

They are as obedient as anyone could desire, but there is a definite art in learning to phrase commands in a way that whichever breed of Void-Called you have summoned will understand - the sheer difference in psychology means that often nuances or intentions can be lost in favor of a rigidly literal interpretation of the word of the commands.

The Star-Spawn

I like the way you're putting Mythos creatures in here to provide a groundwork. Are you going to have your own? The Star Spawn are interesting - I like that they are completely enthralled to the GOOs. Are they "specialised" - do individual GOOs prefer particular Star Spawn as servitors, or do they all use what they can? Are their any rogue Starspawn, or all ALL of them bound? Is it possible they could be "released" from influence? Does lack of Empathy for mortals means instant hostility? Also, where do intelligent things like Mi-Go, Elder Things, and their like fit into this beastiary (they don't seem to fit anywhere else below either).

There are several new species introduced already in various of these sub-sections - but I think the mark of success will be if they're indistinguishable from the 'originals' without a detailed knowledge of 'Mythos canon'.

The Star-Spawn are very much specialized - the Deep Ones are manifestations of the Queen and tied as inextricably to her as the Dark Young are to the Ancient Goat or the Byakhee to the Tsar Unanswerable. Within any given breed of Star-Spawn (originated from any given Great Old One) there will be variations dependent upon how an 'individual' was created that can blur the lines between species but largely certain breeds are bound to certain Great Old Ones.

All of the Star-Spawn are bound - they could no more be released from their dependence and bondage to the Great Old Ones than mankind could learn to breathe water or defy gravity. The only force that might prove powerful enough to effect such a change would be another Great Old One, in which case it would be a case of simply replacing one master with another.

The Star-Spawn do not live among humanity, acting largely as agents of the Royals and their government in various functions, though they often do have to interact with human 'handlers', checking in and receiving their instructions, as well as civilians and so are not inherently hostile towards mankind despite their empathyless nature. That said, though they tolerate the subjects of the Ancients, they have absolutely no attachment to them and feel no compunctions if the situation arises where one must or should be slain.

You've spotted the big gap - after a good amount of consideration I'm currently leaning towards eliminating the intelligent but natural alien civilizations (the Elder Things & the Great Race, etc) as inappropriate to the tone of the setting. The Mi-Go (here Migou) are a species of Starspawn native to Yuggoth and aligned with the White Lady of the Antarctic Fastness.

The Remants

Quick aside; where do the Men of Leng appear in the stories? I've heard them mentioned all over the place but never actually read them in anything. Are the Remnants more...amicable, I suppose would be the word, to mortals, seeing as they are fairly carbonish. How do they feel about the GOOs return? How powerful are they? Do they have their own societies? Are they still relegated to the distant corners of the world, or do they integrate among mortals? How do mortals feel about the Remnants? How do the GOOs?

The Men of Leng appear throughout the Dreamlands cycle, most prominently in "Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath".

The Remnants (ironically enough) are less amicable to mankind, being on the one hand isolationist and xenophobic creatures who see humanity as intruding upon them and on the other hand being carbon-ish enough to have similar resource needs to humans. They have in the most part conquered their own small corners of the world where they have either wiped out or now dominate humanity (the Tcho-Tcho tribes largely control, for example, the thick jungles of Burma, Thailand and Laos).

They do not possess a consensus surrounding the return of the Ancients - their independence and devolution mean that they are far harder to generalize around than others - and they span the spectrum of views from the formalized role of the Ghuls in the priesthood of the Black One of Egypt to the xenophobic intolerance for all outsiders displayed by the Men of Leng in their Forbidden Cities in Nepal and Tibet.

They are generally less powerful but more numerous than the Star-Spawn, with the reverse being true of their relation to mankind and possess their own fully developed societies (usually tribal in form).

The Royal-Kin

The shortest entry in here is the one I'd love to hear the most about; from a player standpoint, it sounds like these are actually playable (a young Royal-Kin, that is, with their impending loss of empathy hanging over their heads). How do humans react to Royal-Kin? How many degrees removed does it still show? Do any retain enough humanity to still relate to the other half of their heritage? How hostile/alien are they? Do they always serve their 'sire'?

Humans react to the Royal-Kin much the same way that people in Victorian times did their princes and nobles - the 700 years since the Return have totally normalized the rule of the Great Old Ones and desensitized the populace to unwholesome nature of their Royal family.

The triple-chambered heart holds true no matter how thin the Royal blood flows. Beyond that it's simply a matter of degree - far-removed Dagonites may have slightly protruding eyes or pallid skin but the everyman on the street wouldn't suspect anything if not for the distinctive heartbeat.

Once puberty hits and their true nature emerges, none retain enough humanity to relate to their human side - even a single drop of blood from the Ancients is more potent than a score of generations of human descent. As for service and hostility, the madness is in their blood and cannot be resisted - like their ancestors, the Royal-Kin must feed on the broken and shattered minds of humans (preferably innocents) in order to stay strong and vital, a pursuit to which the irresistible urges of their ancestry inexorably draw them as the taint in their veins rises. The call ebbs and flows like the tide to the call of the crimson moon, it is true, but every wave washes higher and drags more away and ever the siren song of the Blood Royal rises.

Shoggoths

Shoggoths are awesome. Have any human Occultists managed to tame one? Do they pose a threat to other Elder Things? To the Great Old Ones? Do the GOOs go to war with each other, or do they use Shoggoths against rogue humans? Did the Elder Things exist and make them, or are they now dead at their creations hands? Do rogue Shoggoths exist? [/quote]

In Lovecraft Holmes, without the Elder Things, Shoggoths are generally either Star-Spawn produced in the usual way, devolved Remnants of forgotten species of Star-Spawn or the product of human Ichory (so certain humans do have control of their own Shoggoths).

A Shoggoth poses a threat to most other creatures, but not to the Great Old Ones Themselves, who use them largely in order to control either rebellions from their own human subjects or conflicts with neighbouring Remnant territories. They have also seen use in the 'proxy-wars' fought between the Great Old Ones in order to resolve disputes, arguments or philosophical debates (no human is quite sure which one) without endangering themselves (another Great Old One is the only thing believed capable of wounding one of the Ancients).

Those 'proto-Shoggoths' that can be classified as Remnants based on their origin could be characterized in one way or another as 'rogue', yes.

[Xathan]

I'll get to the rest later on, but wanted to share my thoughts on this really quickly:

You've spotted the big gap - after a good amount of consideration I'm currently leaning towards eliminating the intelligent but natural alien civilizations (the Elder Things & the Great Race, etc) as inappropriate to the tone of the setting. The Mi-Go (here Migou) are a species of Starspawn native to Yuggoth and aligned with the White Lady of the Antarctic Fastness.

As much as I absolutely love the Elder Things and the Great Race of Yith, I think you're absolutely right in doing this: they just don't fit the setting and tone. I'm curious about the Mi-Go, being Aligned with this White Lady, and also somewhat surprised they weren't aligned with the local equivalent of Nyarlathotep; is that entity not present here, or have different servitors?

[HippopotamusDundee]

I'll get to the rest later on, but wanted to share my thoughts on this really quickly:

You've spotted the big gap - after a good amount of consideration I'm currently leaning towards eliminating the intelligent but natural alien civilizations (the Elder Things & the Great Race, etc) as inappropriate to the tone of the setting. The Mi-Go (here Migou) are a species of Starspawn native to Yuggoth and aligned with the White Lady of the Antarctic Fastness.

As much as I absolutely love the Elder Things and the Great Race of Yith, I think you're absolutely right in doing this: they just don't fit the setting and tone. I'm curious about the Mi-Go, being Aligned with this White Lady, and also somewhat surprised they weren't aligned with the local equivalent of Nyarlathotep; is that entity not present here, or have different servitors?

The Black One of Egypt is present but already (to my mind) has enough servitors as it is with the Ghul and the Hunting Horrors and the Dark Men and sundry others. Instead I'm probably going to run with the joke that HPL once made about Yuggoth and Pluto being one and tie 'ice planet-thing' in with the Antarctic.

But I'm not wholly sure either way yet.

(Part of this is a concern that Gaiman's invented Great Old Ones don't end up served solely by fictional Mythos creatures and therefore stick out like a sore thumb)

[Xathan]

The Black One of Egypt is present but already (to my mind) has enough servitors as it is with the Ghul and the Hunting Horrors and the Dark Men and sundry others. Instead I'm probably going to run with the joke that HPL once made about Yuggoth and Pluto being one and tie 'ice planet-thing' in with the Antarctic.

But I'm not wholly sure either way yet.

(Part of this is a concern that Gaiman's invented Great Old Ones don't end up served solely by fictional Mythos creatures and therefore stick out like a sore thumb)

That makes sense, given the number of things associated with Nyarlathotep (although given the location, I could see the Elder Things as Star Spawn tied to the White Lady).

However, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the last parenthetical notation; do you mean you want to make sure that the NEW Great Old Ones have some of the classic Mythos creatures to tie them in, or am I reading that wrong?

[HippopotamusDundee]

However, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the last parenthetical notation; do you mean you want to make sure that the NEW Great Old Ones have some of the classic Mythos creatures to tie them in, or am I reading that wrong?

Exactly that! If the lines between classic Mythos and 'new' Mythos are clearly visible then I think the verisimilitude of the setting will have been compromised. Hopefully the current list of sample creatures is blended enough that even Steerpike can't tell the difference, though I doubt it :P

[Xathan]

Well, I think I'm pretty high on the Mythos geek list here, though distant second to yourself and Steerpike, and yet I can't tell the difference all the time; do you have plans to expand upon different species in terms of laying out how Mythos creatures interact with this version of the universe, as well as expanding upon your own creations? (I'm more interested the latter, obviously) Also, I'm looking forward to the addition of the cosmology and the Great Old Ones. :)

[HippopotamusDundee]

Well, I think I'm pretty high on the Mythos geek list here, though distant second to yourself and Steerpike, and yet I can't tell the difference all the time;

Then I'm doing my job well (Y)

...do you have plans to expand upon different species in terms of laying out how Mythos creatures interact with this version of the universe, as well as expanding upon your own creations? (I'm more interested the latter, obviously) Also, I'm looking forward to the addition of the cosmology and the Great Old Ones. :)

I hope eventually to have a write-up in both fluff and crunch for most of the species, but for now I think it's time to get started on some of the other stuff.

[Xathan]

Of course. I'll look forward to what comes next! :D