Real-world mythology in a 'Historical Fantasy' setting

[ElWongo2]

Hey there. I'm working on publishing a small-time setting project under the Creative Commons license. Nothing fancy, got some art done, some writing done. Just a little something that I want to be able to point to and say, "that's right. I got a book published. Self-published, yes, but published all the same." Not trying to charge for it, just get it hosted and out there.

It's intent is to be a 'historical fantasy' setting. With its main roots being in the Early Modern period (from around the 1400s to the early 1800s) , it takes some fantasy elements and tropes and puts them in a setting that feels historical. Real-world people and events can appear, if seen through a fantastic lens.

My real issue is that of religion and mythology.



It's important to me to have setting mutability; the writers of "Eclipse Phase" or the FATE system guys have instilled within me a hearty desire to make any setting GM-friendly. That means giving the GM ideas and options for some of the 'big questions,' rather than simply giving a definite answer.

Hence, my difficulty. I know that I want to have the religious aspects of the setting be rooted in real history. I just don't know how. I was thinking it might be nice to offer multiple versions of mythology that the GM or players can choose from, to give them more hand in the setting.

A few of the ideas that came to me are below. Feel free to throw out your own ideas for either the setting in general or the mythology... I'm not too terribly satisfied with any of my mythology ideas.

1. Players choose from pretty much -all- the available deities in mythology. Quetzalcoatl is just as real as Zeus or Ebisu.
+Variety
-Overwhelming choice

2. Players choose from deity 'aspects' such as "God of War" or "God of Fishing & The Sea." (Optionally, players can look at a list of real-world deities; once they deterimine that they want to play as the God of Order, they can say, 'Oh, cool, Eunomia sounds neat.)
+Simpler
-Genericizes many myths into a button-choice

3. Mythological beings elect certain representatives to posts "Universal God of War for this century is... Bast, from Egypt!"
+Small list (maybe 10-15 deities, similar in number to Pathfinder, D&D, Westeros etc.)
-Not sure how the voting would occur
-Seems a bit bureacratic and strangely god-friendly for a historical setting

3. Have versions of real-world faiths - Islam, Christianity, Buddhism
+Adds to historical verisimilitude
-Complex issues abound, I don't know if I'm equipped to write about it

4. Have religions that are clearly inspired by real-world faiths but don't necessarily bear resemblance to them (IE the church of Menoth in Iron Kingdoms)
+Easier
-Seems 'done'

5. Completely fictional deities (or unrecognizably obscure ones), such as the entire Proto-Indo-European Pantheon  - Deus the All-Father, Plenty the Earth-Mother, Taranis the Striker
+Don't think it's been done before
-What am I even thinking here...

[sparkletwist]

I figured that the awesome guys on GiantITP might be able to help.

Maybe they can!
You forgot to change that part when you copied and pasted your post though. :grin:

But anyway.

Personally, I'd rule out option 3 right now. It really seems like a minefield that you don't want to step into. If you start introducing versions/adaptations of real faiths, especially ones that still currently exist, then it's almost a certainty that you're going to get something wrong (or, for that matter, get something right that people don't like to talk about) and then people will get offended and your whole setting will get mired in that one issue and... yeah. Just don't do it.

A combination of 4 and 5 seems to be the best approach to me. It's more creative and lets you tailor your gods to your setting, while running a much lower risk of stepping on any landmines-- particularly if your religions mix some rather disparate elements in interesting ways so that it doesn't seem like any one thing is being misappropriated or stereotyped. This is fun to do, too, because you get to spot commonalities between otherwise unrelated mythological traditions and draw lines between them, creating something that is hopefully interesting and thought-provoking.

I wouldn't worry too much about whether it's been "done before," personally. I'd contend that lots of settings do #4 and come up with creative results and that's fine; I'd also contend that #5 has probably been done before as well but so what if it works for you. The issue isn't really that the approach has been done before-- it's whether you can make a good setting with it. As long as the mythology itself is evocative and interesting, that's what really counts, after all.

[ElWongo2]

So, you think that #4 is the way to go?

Now, I guess I should say that it's not like it sounds unpalatable or anything. The Vactine Church in 7th Sea or the Menite faith in Iron Kingdoms both evoke the traditional imagery of the 1400s Catholic Church in all its inquisitorial fervor.

I guess I'm not afraid of being 'done,' because I mean c'mon, everyone's done something at least once. There's probably a similar setting to what I'm doing now that probably does it better.

That said... I guess there's a part of me that wants to use real-world mythology, you know? Everyone knows how Thor has a giant hammer and they might have some ideas about other deities like Coyote. I wanted to somehow include those.

Also, I guess the next question is - how to depict other religions in a meaningful way? Sure, you could make a version, but how?

Some random thoughts -

-Middle eastern religions could be inspired by Zoroastrianism, (holy flame, constant vigilance of good against evil)
-Far east religions could all fall under the veil of philosophy (a la Confucianism) or the 'celestial bureaucracy' (?)

See, I guess that's why I came looking for ideas from fellow fans of world-building. I'm kinda stumped. :P


Now, that said, the familiarity of PIE deities might be to one's advantage. Perhaps local cultures have their own interprations, and that's to be expected... though once we get farther away, it becomes a little harder to justify... East Asian deities don't exactly have the greatest similarity to our favorite European/Central Asian deities...

[SA]

What does it mean to "believe in" or to "worship" a god? What does it mean to be faithless and what are the consequences? Can a spiritual character communicate with the gods or otherwise have rational confidence in their existence? Do the gods bestow favour? Are they the source of miraculous power or simply the ones with the most? How do theocratic power structures influence daily life?

The Christian world was caught in profound and perpetual tension between the beatific and the base, a tension compelled by arguments of questionable provenance. Actual, demonstrable sorcery and miracles would either prove or destroy such arguments and thus completely transform the conflicts of the Early Modern period.

That said... I guess there's a part of me that wants to use real-world mythology, you know? Everyone knows how Thor has a giant hammer and they might have some ideas about other deities like Coyote. I wanted to somehow include those.

What's stopping you? Just keep in mind that the Early Modern period would be utterly unrecognisable within a polythesistic setting.

[ElWongo2]

Well, I took your criticism to heart. I figured I'd sit down and try to create some 'versions' of real-world religions.

For context, this is for my upcoming "Terrarum Orbis" campaign setting. It's a historical fantasy world, set in a distorted-yet-recognizable version of our own world.  It's nominally set on the planet Aio in the year 1700, with technology, politics, and religion all greatly resembling our own world.





   
   
   
   
   
   
   

[th]Religion[/th]    [th]Inspiration[/th]    [th]Key Belief[/th]
The Hierarchy	Christianity	Virtue
The Apostles	Islam	Justice
The Shamans	Shamanism	The Spirit World
The Pantheon	Hinduism	Enlightenment
The Celestial Court	Taoism, Chinese Folk Religion	Harmony
The Awakened	Buddhism	Wisdom
The Animists	Animism	Union With Nature

"Religion is the art and the theory of remaking man. Man is not a complete creation."

   There is no belief throughout history that inspires more bellicose passions or sublime belief than religion. Religion as a set of collective beliefs can be dated to the invention of writing and long before. There are manifestations of power and trappings of gods, but the machinations are subtle and complex. The true nature of the divine is mysterious and tantalizing.

   Most adherents fall into one of the seven religious movements listed below. These religions have seen their faith spread far and wide across Aio. There are other religions as well, and many more have come before. However, most of these are worshipped primarily by a smalller group, or have since subsumed by one of the seven faiths.

   The majority of Hesperians follow the Hierarchy, a rigid and organized religious institution dedicated to following the principles of the Hierarchy's founder, the ascended (Cool name for Christ-allegory?). The church preaches brotherhood and encourages its adherents to live their lives in accordance with numerous virtues and in avoidance vices. The Hierarchy is lead by the Hierophant, but numerous splinter movements have resulted in a fractured faith.

   The second-most common faithful are the Apostles. This movement was founded several hundreds of years after the Hierarchy by a legendary figure referred to simply as the Prophet. The Prophet was a scholar who witnessed the literal and unbroken word of (Need a good name for a monotheistic God). The Apostles preach loyalty to one's leaders, servitude towards (name of God?) and encourage a strong sense of justice. While related to the Hierarchy, the Apostles lack a formal head, with clerics and religious heads-of-state known as Caliphs interpreting much of the religion's dogma.

   Shamanism, sometimes associated with druidism, revolves around Shamans  - mystical practitioners who transcend the mortal realm into the spirit world. Shamans are religious leaders, summoners, warriors, and ritualists all at once, and Shamanistic societies frequently see the tribe or village as the basic family unit and the Shaman as its head. While highly varied, societies and tribes that adhere to Shamans can be found across Aio - especially in Columbia and Tartary.

   The Pantheon is a catch-all term used to describe the traditions of Indra. All sects of The Pantheon share similar rituals, scriptures, and goals of attaining enlightenment and transcending the mortal form. However, they disagree and differ on the paths to enlightenment. Some sects preach martial prowess and physical attenuation, while others encourage sobriety and cunning.

   The Celestial Court is the de jure faith of Shenzhou. This complex faith encourages living in harmony with existence by encouraging relationships; Master to Servant, Father to Son, and Man to Nation. (Not sure how I feel about these) and promotes the related three virtues of Compassion, Moderation, and Humility. The faithful of the Celestial Court also worship the shen, or spirits; shen can refer to archetypes, beliefs, demigods, and folk heroes as well as ancestors.

   At that point I meant to sit down and hash out the remaining two of the seven Faiths, but I didn't (and I am of course requesting your help and criticism. :P )  I gave up on writing out a section on "The Awakened." In real life, of course, there is a very clear delineation between Buddhism and Hinduism, but I'm just not sure how to bring that out.

It's important to note that this is written for a campaign setting; a role-playing game world where the players dive right in. It was important to me that each of the Seven Faiths were recognizable immediately - though balancing that with avoiding stereotypes is difficult.

I don't want to sound offensive or stereotypical. I want the religions to all be *player-friendly*. Every one of them should intrigue players to the point that they don't just write down 'agnostic' or 'atheist' on their character sheet.

Furthermore, I want to just show off that yes, there is a difference between Shamanism and Animism though there might be overlap. While words fail me, mentally I thought that Animism would represent the druidic traditions we are so familiar with in fantasy stories and games, while Shamanism represents a more mystical faith obsessed not with nature but with spirits.

[SA]

Cool name for Christ-allegory?

Europe is named after a mythical woman who had an unfortunate run in with the rapeyest of gods. Embed Hesperia even deeper in your mythology: Hesperia-->Hesperus-->evening star--> Hesperia is named for Venus at night -->"Hespherus is Phosphorus"-->Phosphorus is the light that watches by day, Hesperus the light that guides by night. Venus becomes a Christ-analogue (rather than a Luciferian analogue), after whom the whole region has been named.

Need a good name for a monotheistic God

Almighty. Sublime Power. The Infinite. Giver and Taker. First and Last. The One Who Watches All Sides. Our Splendid Father. Wise Destroyer. He-Brings-Wisdom-And-Fire. The "names" of this god are not really his name at all.

Fill "Hinduism" with a hundred thousand gods and make them glorious. Fill "Buddhism" with the gods of every other religion and make them tragic. Even the gods of Buddhism can fall, by their own folly, and become less than human.

ALSO: Are your gods real? That's important.

[sparkletwist]

It was important to me that each of the Seven Faiths were recognizable immediately - though balancing that with avoiding stereotypes is difficult.

I contend that this is not even possible.

In order to be instantly recognizable as an allegory of a real religion, you are going to have to bundle together a bunch of formulaic "iconic" traits that random people at your gaming table would think of when they try to picture whatever religion you're trying to invoke. In other words, a stereotype. It might not be a particularly negative stereotype, if you focus on belief systems and virtues and whatever-- but you're still taking an entire religious tradition and boiling it down into a few-sentence summary that is designed to be recognizable as a certain thing to an average person with no special background in that religious tradition. And that's pretty much what a stereotype is.

What's worse, if you want to add any depth or conflict to these religions at all, you're going to have to start adding negative traits. If you want two of them to fight over something, they'll have to have different views, and this is going to start showing flaws. If you want religious reform, then there will have to be flaws to reform. And so forth and so on. And you really step into the minefield when you start adding negative traits to your stereotypical not-real-but-instantly-recognizable religions.

I'm not against using real-world inspirations, of course. However, a religion that is based on, say, Vedic gods with a centralized Catholic-church-type thing whose vestments and rituals seem more Mesoamerican is a lot less likely to offend any one group because nobody can really point at it and say "Hey! That's supposed to be me! And you got it completely wrong!"

[ElWongo2]

The all-important question of "Are the gods real?" echoes in numerous fantasy settings. Some, like Iron Kingdoms or Forgotten Realms, has a blunt answer - yes, very much so. Some, like Eberron, have supernatural entities that could function as gods (The Silver Flame or The Traveler are very real, though the rest of the pantheon might not be).
The priests, clerics, oracles and choristers can cast spells and channel magical energies; they can definitely heal people through the power of faith. But the source of that power should be vague; I like the idea that the source is completely unknown to science. It could very well just be the same arcane magic that wizards and warlocks use, with different trappings.

It's important to avoid stereotypes. Cliches - well, let's be honest, role-playing is filled with cliches. We need those assumptions in order to fully grasp a setting.

With that in mind, but still holding the simultaneous desires of 'identifiable' and 'appealing,' I figured I'd  try to give them a little more plausible pizazz.

The Hierarchy
Inspirations: When I think of Catholicism, I think of popes, pews, and paintings... but also all the fascinating history. More than just the classical architecture of Rome, I feel like the Hierarchy could really have some very Roman sentiments. Rather than gothic cathedrals, massive stone pillars dominante Temples of the Hierarchy.

In keeping with the theme of orders and layers, the Hierarchy has strict levels of initiation. The real-world church has the laity, deacons, priests, bishops, and the pope; Hierarchy might have similar positions with imposing, Latin-names. Furthermore, the faith might echo the Hellenistic mystery cults, with rare tomes, knowledge , and secrets being revealed only to those who have progressed within it. Oracular orders (the Auspexes) see deeply into mortal souls as they progress to the higher levels of the Collegium Pontifex.

All of this sounds quite cult-y, of course. It can be hard to make such a movement sound appealing. Perhaps the attraction isn't the church's rigid structure, but the message; that all mortals who worship it are automatically saved and entitled to enlightenment in paradise thanks to the sacrifice the First Martyr. The Hierarchy worships a gender-neutral (but often portrayed in imagery as female) demiurge, one that brings light and hope to the downtrodden in a monster-fille world.
Past that... well, past that I'm not sure what else could endear people and players to the religion. A message of compassion and exploration, perhaps? That those who are the most just get to return as warrior-angels?

The Apostles
Is it too wrong to take hints from Zoroastrianism? That's the first question. Both are fascinating, and really to neglect one of the world's oldest and most influential religions seems like a disservice... though simply blending it with Islam also seems like a disservice. That said, themes of religious desires for justice (a vision of a constant struggle of good versus evil, a desire to liberate the oppressed and bring hope to the hopeless) might be neat.

Again, maybe it could be re-skinned. Middle eastern scholars have been immensely influential on the world's scientific progress. Maybe the Apostles' vision of the Demiurge is that of a benevolent, exacting lawmaker; one who has dictated a series of true laws that must be obeyed. These laws should probably be stern, but fair - but said laws could also be interpreted as scientific law. "The Creator has given us this creation, and we move closer to the Creator by understanding it." Something like that maybe?

Giving it a theme of knowledge and law could set it apart from stereotypes associate with fire and holy war. Their temples and structures could be build like palaces and libraries; places where religious canon and scientific script are one in the same.

The Pantheon
Visually, what do you think of when you think of Hinduism? To me, it's the temples, first and foremost. Gigantic mandirs, towers that reach to the sky, all of them filled with huge idols and gorgeous sculpture.

Many of the deities and stories are filled not with the politicking of the Hellenistic gods but of strong leaders and multitudinous philosophies. This is to say nothing of the frequent themes of personal freedom and personal self-discovery. How could I merge all this together? I just don't know.

The Shamanists
"The Spirit World." I don't want to just end up with a bunch of Native American cliches and quotes about living with nature and getting along with The Great Spirit. No, that would be disrespectful and untrue to the fascinating reality. What if the Shamans were holy warriors in their own right? Keepers of a veil; self-selected keepers that harness positive spirits and fight off malignant ones. Is it possible to portray something similar to Tolkien's Istari  ?

What would the structure of said church look like.... if there was one at all? Should it be one, or should it be a philosophical movement that arrogant Hesperians group into one faith?

[SA]

...it takes some fantasy elements and tropes and puts them in a setting that feels historical. Real-world people and events can appear, if seen through a fantastic lens.

If the truth of the divine is an unresolved question why are you labouring so much in its creation? Compared to your rather intriguing synopsis, all this god-talk about entities that might not even exist is rather trivial.

What happens in this setting? What is it about the early modern period that appeals to you so much that you want to create adventures in a fantastical version of it?

What do characters (and thus players) do? What are they? Only human? Transhuman? Subhuman? What motivates them? Who opposes them? If the gods themselves can be doubted, are there beings out in the cosmos whose existence is more sure? How prominent is magic? Does it accompany or supplant the advances of our own Renaissance?

The setting is about what you want it to be about. It's the things you think would be cool for players to experience and to accomplish. You've already got the outline of your religions. Now figure this stuff out. Your gods will grow in specificity to fill the empty spaces.

How could I merge all this together? I just don't know.

I don't believe you. Your latest post is filled with good ideas. Assume they are good and start fleshing them out. What secrets are contained in the mandirs of the pantheon? What horrors/wonders are enacted in the Demiurge's name? What differentiates Apostolic sorcery from Shamanic sorcery? How is civilisation as we understand it challenged by the existence of genuine monsters?

You're offering all these intriguing ideas as hypotheticals but you'd already have a pretty solid foundation on your hands if you just stated them like facts. You can change them with a moment's edit anyway.

Is it possible to portray something similar to Tolkien's Istari ?

I don't know. Is it?

The Istari of Middle Earth know unequivocally that their god (Eru Iluvatar) exists. How will you ensure your "Istari" do not cleave the setting's veil of agnosticism?