VP/WP: Keeping Subdual Damage

[Hibou]

This is an interesting problem. The VP/WP system says nonlethal damage reduces VP except on critical hits, where it then reduces WP. There is no differentiation, so technically you couldn't knock someone out without killing them or using magic. This seems a little troublesome. For this reason I propose an add-on to the VP/WP system that allows nonlethal damage to stand out.

 VP/WP and Nonlethal Damage

All characters and creatures that aren't normally immune to nonlethal damage have a Subdual Reserve equal to their Constitution + their total character level or total HD. Nonlethal damage specifically targets the Subdual Reserve (and ONLY the Subdual Reserve), unless the Reserve is already depleted by enough subdual damage, in which case it starts dealing vitality damage. Creatures knocked unconscious by nonlethal damage are treated normally for all further effects and damages they suffer while unconscious.

For example, a 5th-level Fighter with 16 Constitution has a Subdual Reserve with 21 points; that is, he can withstand 21 points of nonlethal damage before being knocked unconscious.

 Damage Reduction

Damage reduction applies normally against nonlethal damage.

 The Effect of This Change

This definitely makes using nonlethal weapons more effective again. This also makes it easier to knock out most creatures and bind them (or something similar), rather than simply killing them outright (except for those immune to subdual), but it also makes dealing coup-de-graces somewhat easier (but in a game where one can very likely die by a single critical hit, it's not that much different). Those who want to kill someone won't want to subdue them first unless they can't normally overcome them anyway.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Xeviat also a decent VP/WP rule that dealt with non-lethal, as I recall.

One concern with the system is any effect that potentially deals lots of non-lethal damage.  For example, a few feats allow one to deal non-lethal damage without taking the -4 penalty, or deal non-lethal sneak attack.  There is also a non-lethal substitution metamagic feat you probably won't want to allow...

And here's my 10d6 non-lethal fireball guys, save for...nevermind, you're unconscious...

[Hibou]

Haha, good point. I may have to remove those feats from my games or something. But this might also become more or less irrelevant for Witchcraft d20, where the weapons system is changed and a lot of previous weapons that dealt bludgeoning deal nonlethal damage.

I'll be sure to take a look at Xeviat's.

[Ra-Tiel]

If I may offer another alternative?

Why not simply treat VPs/WPs as HP regarding non-lethal damage? That reads, instead of reducing VPs non-lethal damage is counted up against the VP total. A critical hit made with a non-lethal attack instead counts up against the WP total.

This also eliminates the issue with certain feats/spells, as punching someone unconscious requires the same amount of damage necessary to kill that person/creature (both accounting VPs and WPs).

[Xeviat]

My VP/WP system does have Nonlethal damage, as PK said. The way I handle it is simple: if you deal VP damage with a nonlethal attack, it simply deals VP damage; if you deal WP damage with a nonlethal attack, the target suffers Nonlethal damage.

If your nonlethal damage matches your current WP, you are fatigued. If your current nonlethal damage exceeds your current WP, you must make a Fortitude save (DC = difference between current WP and nonlethal damage): success means you are okay (though still fatigued), failure means you are staggered, and failure by 10 or more means you are unconscious.

This way, it uses the current rules for nonlethal damage, with minor modifications so it works with my VP/WP system.

[Hibou]

Hmm... it looks like it works well, Xeviat. I'll have to do some playtesting to make sure I like it, but I'll probably end up using something like that :).

Ra-Tiel, yours is good but I think Xeviat's may or may not be better, because after rethinking my judgement in the first post it seems as though it probably should work the way his is. Good thinking though :)

[Ra-Tiel]

[...]

Ra-Tiel, yours is good but I think Xeviat's may or may not be better, because after rethinking my judgement in the first post it seems as though it probably should work the way his is. Good thinking though :)

No worries. :) I was basically thinking along similar lines as Xeviat. Sort of merging VP/WP rules and rules for non-lethal HP damage together.