At what point is a game no longer DnD? No longer d20?

[Pellanor]

I was just think to myself, how much do you have to change a game until it's no longer DnD?

I've heard some people claim that as soon as you introduce a house rule, or alter the theme, that you're no longer playing DnD. A gritty game isn't DnD. A game without dwarves isn't DnD. A game without attacks of opportunity isn't DnD.

A while back I was looking at my campaign, and decided that it was no longer DnD. I'll be using custom classes, custom races, a custom magic setting and any number of house rules dealing with damage, death, gear, etc...

However now I'm looking at my campaign and thinking that it's getting close to no longer being d20. It's still a class based system with skills and feats, attacks of opportunity , the ability to bull rush and the six main stats, but almost everything else is different. I'm looking at skill based combat and skill based magic as the two big changes at the moment.

So that's where this question comes from. How much does the game have to be changed before you no longer consider it to be DnD? How much does it have to change before you no longer consider it to be d20?

[Poseptune]

I was just think to myself, how much do you have to change a game until it's no longer DnD?

I've heard some people claim that as soon as you introduce a house rule, or alter the theme, that you're no longer playing DnD. A gritty game isn't DnD. A game without dwarves isn't DnD. A game without attacks of opportunity isn't DnD.

A while back I was looking at my campaign, and decided that it was no longer DnD. I'll be using custom classes, custom races, a custom magic setting and any number of house rules dealing with damage, death, gear, etc...

However now I'm looking at my campaign and thinking that it's getting close to no longer being d20. It's still a class based system with skills and feats, attacks of opportunity , the ability to bull rush and the six main stats, but almost everything else is different. I'm looking at skill based combat and skill based magic as the two big changes at the moment.

So that's where this question comes from. How much does the game have to be changed before you no longer consider it to be DnD? How much does it have to change before you no longer consider it to be d20?

In my opinion if your base system is D&D and setting is D&D it is D&D unless you change everything Setting and Crunch.

It is no longer d20 when your skills, and other rolls do not use a d20. :)

[LordVreeg]

The SeaGod is correct, as usual.  If it is classbased, and the combat system uses turns, and the level system is similar, with skills derived from levels gains within the classes and you still use a d20, it is a 'D20-variant'.

(of course, I use a skillbased, continuous-initiative, magic-point systemed, d100 system, so I am saying this from my perspective of definitely NOT using d20)

[Thanuir]

I don't think it matters, really.

Aside from that: The game is no longer D&D when someone intimately familair with D&D can't easily understand and play it with little briefing.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I don't think it matters, really.

Aside from that: The game is no longer D&D when someone intimately familair with D&D can't easily understand and play it with little briefing.

Both my favorite answers.

In the first case, I would have to ask if there is something inherently sacred about D&D that it should matter if you diverge from it.

In the second case, yeah, I think D&D, and most RPGs, have always allowed for houserules. If you get to the point someone that knows the game needs more than a basic review to understand, it's  a new game. If you get to the point you could publish it without being sued for copyright infringement, it's a new game.

[Xeviat]

I'm not sure; almost anytime my group gets together for gaming, we say "we're playing D&D", no matter what game we're playing. Our games encompass D&D, d20 Modern, Star Wars, with a bit of L5R and Mutants and Masterminds thrown in from time to time. My own games have extensive house-rules in play, from armor variants, to altered feats, to a few homebrewed classes.

So, ultimately, I'm going to go with the "can it fit on a page", or "can it be learned in less than an hour" litmus test; thus, my game isn't so much D&D anymore.

[Thanuir]

A bit more theoretic response would be, "When the gameplay is significantly different from baseline D&D." It does have the slight problem of baseline D&D not being defined. Trying to define it will only lead to pointless arguments and hostility.

Further, small rules chages can have large consequences, so the above definition is also nonintuitive in practice.

[Kalos Mer]

As far as the d20 system goes, I see the following statements as being fundamental to the game:

1.  Most conflicts, or Character vs. Character, are resolved by rolling a d20, adding an appropriate modifier, and comparing to a target number which may be either static (DC) or dynamically generated (opposed rolling).  (The 2d10 and 3d6 methods are acceptable substitutes for the d20).

2.  Character creation centers around 'classes' - though these may be heavily customizable by feats, skill choices, etc, fundamental archetypes are still expressed by 'package deals' in the form of classes.

3.  Character advancement takes place in 'chunks' - discrete levels.  Levels are gained by amassing enough experience points to break certain plateaus.

Everything else is not strictly part of what I see the d20 system as being 'all about'.  Adding an additional ability score (Appearance is popular, 'Magic' of some kind, also popular) doesn't make a game non-d20 to me, nor does throwing in any number of alternative magic systems or truly wonky class structures.  As long as the d20 resolution dominates conflict, classes dominate character creation, and levels dominate character advancement, it's still d20 to me.

[khyron1144]

As long as the d20 resolution dominates conflict, classes dominate character creation, and levels dominate character advancement, it's still d20 to me.

Hot funk
Cool punk
Even if it's old junk
It's still rock 'n roll to me


My answer: the printed D&D rules are guidelines only, meant to be houseruled here and there.  It stops being D&D when D&D does not provide the baseline rom which you diverge from.  If you're playing your highly customized variant of World of Darkness, you are not playign D&D.  Other than that, you can chane as much as you want as long as the D&D rulebooks are what you refer to for the unchanged portions.

[Kalos Mer]

It's true - the definition of what is and isn't D&D is much more complicated in my mind than what is and isn't d20.  There are any number of versions that you could call on for the name 'Dungeons and Dragons', while d20 seems to have a certain number of defining characteristics.

[snakefing]

I'm pretty much with Kalos Mer. Here are what seem to me to be the defining characteristics of d20 systems. If you meet these, you can probably say you are playing some kind of d20 variant. If you violate only one, maybe, but if you violate more than one you are probably playing a different system.

For example, a WP/VP system is still a d20 variant, because it is still hit point based. Almost any critical hit system would be a variant. But if your basic damage system used descriptive damage levels instead of hit points, that's a pretty serious deviation.

Characters - Fixed list of characteristics, with values that provide inherent bonuses to certain actions. Race, class and level based special abilities, plus (optionally) chosen feats.

Skills - Roll d20 plus skill and modifiers against target DC. Skills purchased individually using some kind of skill points or other allocation. Fixed list of skills, though possibly modified by campaign considerations.

Combat - Turn-based, initiative-based, hit point-based, action-based. Roll d20 plus attack bonus against target number to hit, roll damage separately.

Magic/Psi/Tech - Treated generally as special abilities with special rules. Lots of flexibility here.

Experience - Experience awarded based mostly on game play. As experience accumulates, characters gain levels. Each level provides additional benefits, including specified abilities, feat selections, and skill allocations.

[Thanuir]

True20 removes experience points from the game (levels are gained based on GM saying so) and does not have hit points (or wound points or vitality points, for that matter; it uses damage saves). The gameplay is, from what I have heard, not that different from normal D&D. I would definitely still call it d20.