Mana points- a "new" magic system. and a "new" class to show it off.

[AllWillFall2Me]

Hello all! I just wanted to get some input on a system I foolishly created a little while back. I say foolish because, my line of thinking went, "I want something fundamental to be different about this campaign setting. How about using mana to cost spells?" This of course led to an as-of-yet-unfinished revision of existing casting classes, which in turn has me seeing whether or not melee classes need to be altered, etc, etc.

However, I like the base premise and my personal way of instituting it. My main concern was I liked the Psionics method of casting, but I didn't think there was a rule preventing spells of a certain level being cast multiple times a day, so a 20th level Psion could cast something like 15 9th level powers a day (I later found the rule that prevented it, and felt vaguely foolish).  however, I also liked the feeling my system had of "control", in that I often hear complaints of the power of casters versus everyone else, and wanted to do something about it.

I'll show the system, then discuss what I like about it.

Mana

Firstly, for ease of use, each spell costs its level squared in mana, excepting 0 levels, which cost 1.
Meaning, for those who like numbers in front of them, spell level-mana cost goes like so:
0-1, 1-1, 2-4, 3-9, 4-16, 5-25, 6-36, 7-49, 8-64, 9-81

Also, you receive a bonus to mana equal to your Intelligence modifier times your level: Meaning a 14th level wizard with a  24 Int (+7 mod) gets an additional 98 mana points

Further rules will be explained later, but the next step to understand is that all the full caster classes have the same base mana pool, determined by level, as shown below:
1-4
2-6
3-(2)-9
4-12
5-(3)-19
6-29
7-(4)-40
8-52
9-(5)-66
10-78
11-(6)-90
12-102
13-(7)-121
14-140
15- (8)-156
16- 170
17- (9)-195
18- 224
19-256
20- 300

The number in parentheses is the Highest Spell Level known. As this system determines spells a day, I found it difficult to maintain spells known as the standard system. I believe it can be used in conjunction, but playtest will need to determine if this is so. As it stands, I used a new "spells known" style, demonstrated below.

A mage (as the revised Wizard/Sorceror is known collectively) has a number of schools he is "proficient" in. When attempting to cast a spell from a non-proficient school, the mana cost is increased by a multiplier of 1.5. So an illusionist casting a 4th level evocation spell would use 24 mana instead of 16.

This system, I hope, gives casters the choice to either use their mana cunningly, all day long, or burn it out in one or two fights with their most powerful spells.

Mana regeneration is going to be a process involving the return of a percentage of their total mana per hour, so that after 8 hours of rest, they will have regained all their points. Certain expensive items, magicals incenses and such, as well as possibly a feat or two shall increase this regeneration rate.

Now, with the use of Intelligence as the modifier for spells per day for all classes now, I felt the need to give some power back to their "original modifier". So, this modifier is still used for determining the DC of their spells. So a Sorceror still uses 10+spell level+Cha modifier.

Finally, to save myself some bookwork as to differing mana pools for Wizards and Sorcerors, I chose to infuse them into a single class, with the choice of one class or the other, as demonstrated below:
(Note: these changes constitute a fairly intensive modification of both Wizard and Soceror, please review them carefully.)

MAGE

Lvl   BAB   Fort   Ref   Will   Mana   SLK   Special
1   +0   +0   +0   +2   4   1   Path To Power,  Familiar, Schools
2   +1   +0   +0   +3   6   1   Secrets of the Path(Initiate)
3   +1   +1   +1   +3   9   2   
4   +2   +1   +1   +4   12   2   Path's Rewards
5   +2   +1   +1   +4   19   3   
6   +3   +2   +2   +5   29   3   Secrets of the Path(Apprentice)
7   +3   +2   +2   +5   40   4   
8   +4   +2   +2   +6   52   4   Path's Rewards
9   +4   +3   +3   +6   66   5   
10   +5   +3   +3   +7   78   5   Secrets of the Path(Master)
11   +5   +3   +3   +7   90   6   
12   +6/1   +4   +4   +8   102   6   Path's Rewards
13   +6/1   +4   +4   +8   121   7   
14   +7/2   +4   +4   +9   140   7   Secrets of the Path(Archmage)
15   +7/2   +5   +5   +9   156   8   
16   +8/3   +5   +5   +10   170   8   Path's Rewards
17   +8/3   +5   +5   +10   195   9   
18   +9/4   +6   +6   +11   224   9   Secrets of the Path(Magus)
19   +9/4   +6   +6   +11   256   9   
20   +10/+55   +6   +6   +12   300   9   Pinnacle of Power.


Class Skills: The mage's class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int) , Profession (Wis) , and Spellcraft (Int).
A wizard adds  Appraise (Int), Decipher Script (Int), and Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int) to their list of class skills.
A sorceror adds Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), and Intimidate (Cha) to their list of class skills.

Skill Points (2+Int Modifier, C4 at first level)

Path to Power(Ex): At first level, the mage must select his Path to Power. This will decide what ability score modifier affects his spell saving throws, and what other benefits they gain as they progress. The Paths are The Path of Intellect and the Path of Will. The followers of the path of Intellect, known as wizards, use Int as their modifier. Followers of Will, or sorcerors, use Cha.

Summon Familiar: This is as normal D&D rules. <Fill in Later>
 
Schools: Mages in Nordine find that their magic tends to be of a focused path, unless extensive studies and efforts are taken. Mages are considered 'proficient' in a specific number of schools. Casting from a non-proficient school costs  150% of the normal mana requirements, rounded up. A wizard begins play proficient in two schools, a sorceror begins knowing only one.

Secrets of the Path: The paths of Power lead a mage to great power and prestige, but in two very separate ways. As the Mage advances in levels, he gains new abilities determined by his path.

At Second level, a mage is known as an Initiate of their Path, and learns the first secrets of the way.

           Initiates of Intellect are given a Spellbook. This book, purchasable at any academy of magic, allows a wizard the opportunity to write his spells down, and analyze the underlying principles. Writing a spell in a spell book costs the wizard 100 gold per page in inks and arcane components, with spells taking one page per spell level. Also, a Knowledge (Arcana) check (DC 10+spell level) is necessary for the character to gain a benefit from his new understanding of the spell. A wizard receives a +1 to the spell's saving throw DC for any spell in his book. A wizard may write  spell multiple times, with increased benefits, but the Knowledge check DC increases by 2 every time, and full price is still paid for pages. (For instance, a wizard who wanted to add 2 to his fireball, a 3rd level spell, would need to pay 300 gold, use three pages, and pass a DC 13 check, then pay an additional 300 gold, use three more pages, and pass a DC 15 check.)  Also, a wizard cannot cast a metamagic version of a spell unless he has successfully written it in his spell book.
          Initiates of Will receive the ability to overpower weaker minds. A number of times a day equal to their Charisma modifier, they can cast Hypnotism as a spell-like ability, using a full round action.  With every Path secret, he may influence an additional d4 HD of creatures (3d4 at 6th level, 4d4 at 10th, etc)

At Sixth level, the mage becomes known as an Apprentice of his path, and s inducted into even greater mysteries.
         An Apprentice of Intellect finds that, after years of studying magical texts and scrolls, the language of magic is now as easy for him as his birth tongue. Treat him as being constantly under the effects of Read Magic.
         An Apprentice of Will learns how to trade lifeforce for mana. She may cast a spell, sacrificing hit points instead of mana, though this is a difficult procedure, costing twice the spell's mana cost in hit points. An Apprentice may also 'burn out'  their brains for mana, gaining a negative level in exchange for (level*5) mana

At Tenth level, Mages become master of their chosen paths, and gain no small amount of prestige, or power.
      A Master of Intellect learns a fundamental truth of the school of his choice, having studied it for quite some time, and thereafter casts spells of that school as if he were one level higher for intents of durations, damage, or other level based effects.
      A Master of Will learns to assert his will over even greater minds. He receives a +4 on Charisma checks against summoned or called creatures. Also, when he uses his Hypnotism ability, he may charm the target, with the expenditure of an additional daily use.

At 14th level, a Mage progresses to the rank of Archmage, known as a member of the upper echelons of magical power.
      An Archmage of intellect learns inner secrets to binding magic and mana to objects, receiving a 25% reduction in XP costs for making magic items.
     An Archmage of Will becomes something of a celebrity, gaining a +4 on Charisma Based checks against people under 10th level who have heard of him, and a +2 against people 10th and over who have. (Charisma Check DC 20 to determine if they have)

At  18th level, now able to cast the mightiest of mortal spells, a newly dubbed Magus is a force that can change the outcome of wars, the landscape of politics, even the very terrain of lands.
      A Magus of Intellect is a calculating man with plans within plans hinging on variations of plans. He adds his Intelligence modifier to Charisma and initiative checks.
      A Magus of Will has refined his will to achieve the impossible on a day to day basis. He replaces his intelligence modifier with Charisma to determine his mana pool.

Path's Rewards: At every 4 levels, a mage receives a gift from his studies, a new insight into magic or a broadening of his view. Depending on their path, they may gain:
Intellect: A mage of intellect may gain any item creation feat, or learn a new school of magic.
Will: A mage of Will may select any metamagic feat, or a will feat (Feats I shall develop later, giving the Sorceror the ability to overcome certain restrictions or rules (Probably here is where the increased mana regen feat will exist, also feats similar in function to reserve feats)

Pinnacle of Power: At 20th level, the powers at a Mage's command shift inside him, causing him to "burn" away his old humanity, gaining new powers and a stronger form. A 20th level mage becomes a native outsider with damage reduction 10/cold iron, Spell resistance equal to 5+ his caster level+ his DC modifier (Int for Wizards, Cha for Sorcerors), and no longer needs to sleep.

Please give your thoughts and feedback on this system, I am midway through the conversion of Druids and Clerics into a similar single class, and any input will be reviewed and hopefully use to improve the ideas all around.

[Midgardsormr]

The Paths are The Path of Intellect and the Path of Will. The followers of the path of Intellect, known as wizards, use Int as their modifier. Followers of Will, or sorcerors, use Cha.

The terminology is a bit confusing.  If I were a follower of the path of Will, I'd expect to use my Willpower attribute for casting.  I never quite understood why sorcerers used Cha to start with, though.  

I kind of like how the epic mage is transformed by the powers he wields: trading his humanity for his power.  I wonder if you could sort of foreshadow that with some of the powers they gain as they rise through the lower levels.  

A Magus of Will has refined his will to achieve the impossible on a day to day basis. He replaces his intelligence modifier with Charisma to determine his mana pool.

This concerns me a little bit.  There is some benefit to the initiate of Will increasing Int, but Cha is likely to be much higher.  So at 18th level, a Magus of Will can potentially gain a LOT of mana, which seems stronger than the Magus of Intellect's bonus to charisma and initiative checks.

[AllWillFall2Me]

I agree with you regarding the Magus power of the Path of Will (which I will discuss in a moment), I found myself without inspiration on that power, unable to think up anything cool or powerful, so I defaulted to something relatively bland and possibly overpowered. Do you have any suggestions for what I could replace it with?

As to the Path of Will versus Path of Intellect, I see your point. I think the problem comes not from the Path of Will itself, but the Path of Intellect, in that, I wanted path names that you could easily associate with one or the other, and Intellect is possibly too close to Intelligence, giving a unintended connection. I can tell you only what I think about it, but in my mind, the reason a sorceror uses charisma is because he is convincing reality that he is correct. My view of charisma has been shaped somewhat by D10 games, which typically include appearance and manipulation as separate traits. In this, I see Charisma as partly being one's willpower, in the sense that one's confidence in oneself determines how far one is willing to keep pushing. I know I have used my reputation and will to convince people to do what I want, which is one of the main uses of charisma. So I'm ambivalent about changing it. Any suggestions on a better name? Maybe the paths should be Study and Will?

Foreshadowing that transformation does sound like a good idea. I'll be honest, I invented that ability when posting the thread, as I realized I hadn't decided what it meant. Perhaps some of the Paths' powers should be increasing amounts of personal power, with trade-offs? Maybe the wizard gains the mastery of his school at the cost of charisma, as his knowledge of magic and power makes him less concerned with people, and the Sorceror's increased celebrity cost him wisdom, as the adoration goes to his head? Maybe they should gain stronger personal magical abilities, like the read magic and hypnosis ones?

[Atlantis]

i just skimmed over it but it seems alot like the psionic system w/ power points

[Midgardsormr]

I don't know that you necessarily want to build in mechanical penalties, but maybe roleplaying ones.  I could see a mage with this kind of power slowly becoming more sociopathic as they begin to shed the limitations of mere mortal existence.  If you're a Stargate SG-1 fan, something like what happened to Daniel Jackson when Apophis' son gave him a taste of what it would be like to have the knowledge of the Goa'uld.  

I'll reflect on the other questions for a while and post if I come up with anything promising.

[Xeviat]

Did somebody say Mana? AllWillFall2Me, if you'd like to save yourself a bit of work, I've already done an MP system. It doesn't require you to change the classes, and the spells are largely the same. If you like it, I can get you .doc versions of them so you can have them on your own computer.

You can find my MP system at http://www.thecbg.org/settings/29/Mana_System.html

Enjoy, and please tell me what you think.

[LordVreeg]

Did somebody say Mana? AllWillFall2Me, if you'd like to save yourself a bit of work, I've already done an MP system. It doesn't require you to change the classes, and the spells are largely the same. If you like it, I can get you .doc versions of them so you can have them on your own computer.

You can find my MP system at http://www.thecbg.org/settings/29/Mana_System.html

Enjoy, and please tell me what you think.

Not to derail the thread, but I am always impressed how many folk prefer to move away from a pure Vancian system to a mana based system.  I read through Xeviat's, and I am struck by the inclusions of spell levels.  Mana points don't merely allow for a different and more judicious disbursment of energy, on the other end they allow a GM to 'fine-tune' the amount each spell costs.  
I also think that most people who mana-systems ignore the possibilities offered by the regeneration of spell points (or mana points).  You want to change the dynamic spell casters and spell casting?  Increase slightly the total mana per level,but Make it so half of their total mana is personal power, and comes back 1/8 per hour of resting.  The other half is soaked up through nodes, or moonshine, or conectioon with the earth, (or whatever) come back 1/8 per day.  Have it so the personal stuff is what is used first, so that they have can cast weaker spells with some impunity, but they become really worried about using their more powerful spells. If you think about this logically, this makes most major works (like item creation and such, and the rest involved with tougher spells) more logical.

[AllWillFall2Me]

I always try and respond in order of post to replies:

Atlantis: Part of what your skimming missed, I assume, was my statement that I based this system off the psionic system, so that's probably where you're seeing most of the similarities.

Midgardsomr: I unfortunately do not have the time to be a fan for half as many science fiction and fantasy books, movies or shows as I want to, Stargate unfortunately falling in the "have not seen" pile. However, I think I have the general same idea of the great cosmic power making it harder and harder to care about those "important" lives of the people-ants. My counterexample would be the distance experienced by Doctor Manhatten of the Watchmen.

And I'm never a fan of doing mechanically what can be done with roleplaying, but I also find it can help the player remember if there's a mechanic involved. I'd of course make it a tit-for-tat arrangement, as I feel no penalty should come without explainable benefits.

Cap'n Xeviat: When I first mentioned the idea of this system, a couple months back, I was immediately referred to your work. I saw it, and I liked what I saw, but it didn't "click" with me, that sensation of "yes, that's what I was talking about", if that makes any sense. You clearly put a lot of time and effort into that, and it was close to what I was looking for, but not exactly what I wanted.  

I think partly what it was is I actually did want a "big" change. Your system fits a mana system almost identical to 3.5 psionics seamlessly onto the existing spell system, and I think would provide any D/GM looking for a good mana system with a perfect place to start off, but I didn't want that, I wanted something that called for a rethinking on how you play the class. It could be that I'm using this a a half measure, like I want to see a totally non-vancian system, and this is my first step in that direction, I don't know.

LordVreeg: If you happened to read any of my response to Xeviat, I think you can see how strongly you're tapping on the level I'm trying to get. While I'm uncertain if I want to use those exact ideas you presented, I do like the "this is not your power" feel of your ideas. And you also touch on the idea of big spells being big commitments. I built my system so that, if you're 17th level, and want to throw a 9th level spell, that's almost a quarter of your daily usefulness spent in one round. Meaning, also, that it'd take 2 hours of rest to counter the mana you just spent.

One thing I am mildly worried about, and would like some input on, if anyone has the time, is if I tried too hard to "level" this limit with the special powers of the class. One of my friends who helped me through the idea felt I may have accidentally overpowered it

[Xeviat]

Cool cool, no problem. I'll look over your stuff closely and see if there's any real advice I can give.