the Jade Stage

[Hibou]

As always, I'm most interested in the geography of the Jade Stage, and the possibilities for exploration. Some questions:

 How much outside of the primary area of the setting (Attu and the like) have you actually designed, if any, and to what degree? If you haven't done so, do you plan to, or would you prefer to just leave the focus on the current landmasses and their peoples?

Will you be doing much info on the under-side of the world in the near future? I haven't read your site, so I don't know if it's there, but I do remember there being something about the "other side of the coin" as one might see it in your old WotC thread. Is this still a concept you're using for the world?

I may very well have missed some explanations to these questions already given in the thread... please excuse me if I have. :)

[Ishmayl-Retired]

LC, I'm hoping you've had a chance in the last many months to work on some more maps.  I'm not sure what it is about them, but I really like your sketch-style of cartography.

[Lmns Crn]

Has it occured to you to eliminate the Age of Rest altogether? Do you actually have some idea of what it means or did you just think it ought to be there?

Part of the problem could be that you are seeing it as an interlude, but maybe it doesn't need to be there. In r/l history great events happen and then a bunch of little annoying ones come right after, preventing the society from focusing perhaps on the arts of peace and instead demanding further activity.

Anyway one thought I had is that there is often contention as well after a successful war...

This post is six months old, and I have no idea how I missed it originally. Forgive my oversight, I beg.

I think you're on to something. I put in the Age of Rest as a "spacer" between important events, because it seemed like I needed something to keep them compartmentalized. Now that you bring up the issue, though, I'm not sure I need that at all.

One of the things on my long "To Do" list for this setting is to go back and revisit the timeline, adding detail, putting in various events and historical figures. I'll definitely give a good hard look at the Age of Rest during that process, and see if I can figure out a way to get the Scouring and Burning Wars to dovetail together, eliminating Rest entirely.

LC, I'm hoping you've had a chance in the last many months to work on some more maps. I'm not sure what it is about them, but I really like your sketch-style of cartography.

I have a brand-spanking-new Cartographer's Guild account, which will hopefully help me accomplish two things!

1.) Get some tips about map-drawing
2.) Actually embarrass me into working on maps more frequently than once a year (see below)

[ic=Cartographers' Guild People]"Hey, whatever happened to that Crayon guy who registered and posted here, like, twice?"

"No idea. Haven't heard from him in... man, seems like ages. You think he's dead?"

"Yeah, probably."[/ic]That's what I want to avoid![/spoiler][spoiler=The BAD News]No, I haven't really done much with maps since I posted the ones in this thread. I have a half-finished Degawa map (i.e., just the coastal outline, no other details) that I need to do something with. And Entáme is going to be difficult, I fear.[/spoiler]

[SDragon]

Something that caught my eye, and is probably just a matter of semantics:

Remember the controversy surrounding Shirich: part of it involves the fact that his 125 year reign exceeds the average liriss lifespan by a good 25 years, and nobody cares to comment on how exactly that's happening.

Modern-day humans have the average life expectancy of approximately 75 years, with a very small, but still noticable population living to be over 100 years of age, or over 33% more then average.

I haven't seen how old Shirich was when his reign started, but if he was young enough, having a reign that lasted "a good 25 years" (25%) more then the average lifespan wouldn't be entirely out of the question. Impressive, yes, but not impossible by "mundane" (IE: non-controversial) means.

Now, due to the nature of the setting, I suspect the controversy is over whether or not an extended lifespan is "moral", in which case, I call into question how obvious it is that his lifepsan has been somehow "extended". I might suggest strechting out the reign by a good 5-10 years, or possibly clarify his age when the reign started.


On the other hand, if the controversy is over whether or not his life actually is "extended", then I'd say you have the ages just right. By mundane means, his age is probably questionable, but not impossible.


As a sidenote, after reading your admission of having never owned a reptile, I couldn't help but think of using "how much will it improve my setting?" as criteria for choosing a new pet....

[Lmns Crn]

Remember the controversy surrounding Shirich: part of it involves the fact that his 125 year reign exceeds the average liriss lifespan by a good 25 years, and nobody cares to comment on how exactly that's happening.

True, but here's the thing about human people:

A.) A person living to be 100 years old is uncommon, but not super-remarkable anymore.
B.) A person working the same job for 100 years is a bit of a different matter. I've never heard of a case like that.
C.) When that job happens to be called "dictator of an empire," a lot of scrutiny attaches to the person who holds it, since that person is a very prominent international figure.
D.) When you do all of the above AND show no noticeable signs of aging or weariness, people are going to know something is up.

The deal with Shirich is that he's apparently very old, but he appears to have the body of a middle-aged dude at worst. Nobody knows how this is accomplished.

they are so very cute,[/url] but my fiancée is too freaked out by them to ever let me have one. :(

[Lmns Crn]

A Sketch

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm working on trying to figure out what city life "feels like" in the world. This sketch is partly an attempt to get a handle on anatomy and proportions (I'm so out of practice!), and partly to try out some items and apparel to see how it feels.

Do I want pipe-smoking, clean-shaven, trenchcoat-wearing dwarves who scowl over spiral-bound notebooks? [note]Yes, that's the emblem of Red Oath on his shoulder.[/note] Do I want goblins to run down the street with pistols drawn, gang symbols emblazoned on the shoulders of their baggy shirts?

I don't know! We'll see.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Hey LC, I didn't know you used firearms in your campaign!  Send me links where you speak more of technology!! :)

[Lmns Crn]

Hey LC, I didn't know you used firearms in your campaign!  Send me links where you speak more of technology!! :)

I checked, and I don't seem to have written much about it anywhere. (Probably because my ideas about it have always been a little nebulous.) I'm going to verge on Victorian-era-style technology in some ways, but I've got a lot more brainstorming to do before I settle on something.

Glass-grinding and lenses are pretty much in. Magnifying lenses, bifocals, telescopes (and huge observatories), and protective goggles are not unusual. (You'll need the goggles to protect your eyes from acrid fog, if you want to explore the Wilding Fen.) It's not unusual for houses in more affluent cities to have glassed-in windows.

Printing presses and movable type are in (but typewriters, etc., are not.) So mass-printings of books, flyers, newspapers, and other consequences of mechanized printing can be found here and there.

Firearms are a big thing in the history, too. When the humans came over from Indirai, they brought the secret of flashpowder with them, and traded it (among other things) to the dwarves in return for a chunk of land. The dwarves took the formula, tweaked it a bit, a designed the weapons that would use it to propel projectiles. So pistols and rifles are in, but they aren't terribly accurate or reliable, and they don't hold many shots before the need to be reloaded. (I'm still working out the details.) I want guns to be intimidating, but not powerful enough that they replace every other type of Hurting Implement.

Clockworks are in, and a bunch of miscellaneous devices make use of them. A character might give or receive a pocketwatch as a really nice gift, or might consult a clock tower to note the time of day (in some cities.) A noble might keep her jewelery in a wind-up music box, etc., etc. I really need to figure this stuff out. (Nothing as fantastic as a wind-up clockwork golem or anything. That's a little bit out of the range I want to work within.)

Medicine benefits from technology, too-- we get some rudimentary surgical techniques, but they're crude and definitely not guaranteed to save your life (or even leave you in better health than before you went under the knife.) Germ theory isn't developed yet, so "butchery" is a descriptive noun that comes to mind.

I do want to keep local diversity in mind, especially with regard to technology. The sorts of things that are available or commonplace in a city might never have been seen by a tribal dweller, and one part of the world might have different standards and expectations than another with regard to technology, quality of life, and stigmas attached to using (or not using) certain devices.

[sparkletwist]

I like the picture, though it reminds me more of 1920's Chicago than anything I'd associate with D&D, to be truthful. ;)

On the issue of firearms, early firearms were generally kind of crap, so you've got a lot of flexibility there. Muskets took a lot to fire and reload, and could only hold one shot. Rifles allowed a rather significant boost in accuracy, so, you could perhaps rule those out, if you wanted to keep guns down. Another possibility is to only allow cannons and crude hand-held approximations thereof. (sort of a matchlock design)

[Epic Meepo]

Medicine benefits from technology, too-- we get some rudimentary surgical techniques, but they're crude and definitely not guaranteed to save your life (or even leave you in better health than before you went under the knife.) Germ theory isn't developed yet, so "butchery" is a descriptive noun that comes to mind.

Don't forget that ancient Roman surgeons used things sutures long before the Dark Ages set the Western World back a few centuries. Minor but survivable surgical procedures should be fair game in a fantasy setting. Heck, there is evidence that the Mayans conducted some sort of crude brain surgery, and that patients actually survived for years after having little holes cut into their skulls.

[LordVreeg]

In terms of the classses given in the crunch thread, what is the % population breakdowns?  I understand that magic and such is rare, but how rare is a channeller compared to an expert, or to a mage?  If channellers are more common, medicine would progress less, etc...

I'm asking becasue I am trying to get a handle on the technology side, and I think it make sense that magic is often used in place of science, and thus retards the growth of science somewhat.  As you notate with weapons, tech can put magic at a disadvantage and vice versa, some

I'm also wondering, with this tech level, what metals and what tempering skills are avaialble?  Could 'Staunch' armor be a quality of tempering?  And despite the picture, have the advent of firearms hurried the proclivity to more plate armors?
[spoiler=armor refinements in history hurried by firearms]
Probably the most recognised style of armour in the world, associated with the knights of Late Medieval Europe, but continuing later through the 16th and 17th Centuries in all European countries. Heavy cavalry was being used before plate armour became the norm. In the 14th Century, horseman were using a small, mobile "hand cannon", which along with improved crossbows, and the first pistols, began to take a heavy toll on the mail clad, and partially plated knights and foot soldiers. Rather than dooming the use of body armour, the threat of small firearms intensified the use and further refinement of plate armour. There was a 150 year period in which more and better metallurgically advanced steel armour was being used, precisely because of the danger posed by the gun.

In the early years of pistol and muskets, firearms were relatively low in velocity. The full suits of armour, or breast plates actually stopped bullets fired from a modest distance. The front breast plates were, in fact, commonly shot as a test. The impact point would often be encircled with engraving to point it out. This was called the "proof". It was not uncommon for a man in armour, mounted on a horse, to ride up closer to the enemy, wheel in a tactical manoeuvre called a caracole, and discharge his hand-cannon or later, pistols, right into the faces of the adversary at close range. Cross-bow arrows, if still used, would seldom penetrate good plate, nor would any bullet unless fired from close range. In effect, rather than making plate armour obsolete, the use of firearms stimulated the development of plate armour into its later stages. Hence, guns and cavalry in plate armour were "threat and remedy" together on the battlefield for almost 400 years. For most of that period, it allowed horsemen to fight while being the targets of defending arquebuseers without being easily killed. Full suits of armour were actually worn by generals and princely commanders right up to the second decade of the 18th Century. It was the only way they could be mounted & survey the overall battlefield with safety from distant musket fire.[/spoiler]


Did I mention how much I am enjoying reading through this?  Of course not...

[sparkletwist]

My review will be somewhat disjointed, largely because the presentation of the setting is the same. This is not a critique of your writing (which is by and large excellent) but rather your organization. This setting is vast, and there is a lot of information there-- a lot of very detailed information. It's possible to get very deep into the details of some race, faction, or whatnot, without having even gotten a handle on the basic details of setting. To me, this is a flaw. Some settings have been described as a "coffee table book," but the way the Jade Stage is laid out is more of a dusty old collection of encyclopedias, the index long since misplaced.

The possible exception to this rampant disorganization is the wiki-- wikis are very good at presenting the sort of content that you seem to have a lot of that you want to present-- however, that suffers from a large amount of red links and articles that seem to be not at all connected to other sections of the Jade Stage wiki. Browsing the category pages is the only way to really get to all of the meaty goodness, and that suffers from the same "randomness" that I explained above.

I'd dismiss all this as just a combination of my own limitations in processing information and the problems inherent in a setting that's a work in progress, but the big problem I see with the Jade Stage is that the disorganization prevails to the point that I can't even get a handle on what the setting is really supposed to feel like. You've posted a good overview that outlines things like the flat world, the role of humans (something else I liked, I'll get into that later), and such, but I also would like an overview for what it's like for someone who is actually just walking around in the setting. Your intro paragraphs for this thread come closer to an explanation, but they are somewhat sweeping and poetic. I just can't seem to find the answer to the fundamental question: What is the world like? To break down some more specific questions: Is it Gygaxian-Medieval? I don't think so, but does it have some of those elements? Is it Steampunk? Are there soaring stone castles or squat, pragmatic forts? Is there air travel? And so forth and so on...

You posted a picture some time ago (and I commented at that point) that it looked like something out of 1920's Chicago, or the like. This could be a stereotype too, but the point was, from that single picture, I got an instant mental image of the setting, in a way that much of the other material wasn't able to impart. However, that image, with the grizzled "detective" type and the obvious handgun, created a sort of film-noir/steampunk atmosphere-- whether that's anything close to what you had in mind, I don't know.

On to the races. One of my common pet peeves about races, and one that I've posted on a few other reviews I've done lately, is the common problem that authors will treat humans as the "generic" race and then go ahead and describe all of the other races as having specific traits, as though they're somehow capable of less diversity than humans. I'm pleased to see that you've managed to avoid this in a couple of ways. Firstly, though it doesn't appear on the wiki, I noticed in reading over the setting's thread that you've assigned specific traits to humans. These traits actually make sense, too-- you've summed up humanity's merits and flaws in a way that shows the breadth of human characters (as evidenced in the real world) but also created something that deals with humans as "just another race." When you give specific traits and stereotypes, it is either because of a biological trait of the race (the om-beh-ral and their inability to feel certain things) or you're careful to point out that it is cultural and not racial. In this, the only flaw I'd point out is the more than likely false assumption that each race has a unified culture associated with it.

Of course, this cultural association with a race could simply be due to the culture of the predominant nation of that race, or some such thing. The problem is, you seem to treat various nations and empires as primarily political entities, without any cultural component. This may well be true for some of them, as national borders and the lines between ethnic communities rarely always correspond, but to treat all states as strictly political entities and assigning culture to races on the whole seems a bit simplistic and tends to run contrary to the amount of detail and realism (by realism I mean consistency of design rather than matching what could exist in the real world) you've put into other aspects of the design of the Jade Stage.

As for the specific politics of the countries you have outlined, I have another question-- one directly spawning from my inability to get a handle on the "character" of the setting. You say that Ithyria is backwards and reactionary, and from what I gather, this is largely because of its authoritarian monarchistic political system. However, you also state that Cardannis has a government that is a "throwback to feudal systems," and the Formerian Empire has an absolute Emperor and a caste-like system of social rank. In other words, though you treat monarchy and feudalism as "outdated" concepts in your description of Ithyria, it doesn't seem like anyone else has really moved beyond them, either. Something that would be good to know (and I can't determine now, because the Politics link is red) is what the dominant political system is on this world. Has there been an "Enlightement"? What do people think of democracy? Is there any sort of populist or socialist movement? I've searched the "Jade Stage Politics" category, but found mostly noble-house-sounding factions that seem to support my previous confusion, so some broader clarification would be appreciated.

I've already posted in-depth thoughts on the various magical traditions in another thread some time ago, so I won't go over that again. I'll just compliment you on your presentation of magic: I found it refreshing to see something different from the usual D&D approach, and I liked how you had different groups that approached the thing known as "magic" in completely different way, resulting in different specialties and manifestations of their powers.

I find your take on religion to be detailed and well-written, containing a lot of original, quality material, but I also find it a bit too "modern" for my liking. Perhaps the technology level of the setting is higher than I thought, and I'm thinking too much in terms of D&D, and this fits, but otherwise, the assertion that "no concrete proof supports any of these faiths, and it is perfectly reasonable not to believe in any of them" is something rooted squarely in the scientific method and modern thought. Almost nobody in a medieval civilization would think to question the dominant religion, if only because there was so little that was known about the world and the church's explanations are as good as anyone else's. Perhaps I'm not thinking of things well enough in terms of psionics and other "scientific explanations for ooky powers," but to me, atheists in any sort of setting that has magic already have a lot of explaining to do. This is not to say that the gods have to be everpresent and walking around, mind you, simply that as long as unexplained forces are everywhere, people's faith in them will be everpresent and walking around.

There is a lot of good material here, and I know I haven't begun to read it all. I will definitely try to get more into it, particularly if I can get a better handle on what the setting is really about-- I think part of the problem is that I'm a newer user, and wasn't here to watch this setting rise up from nothing. I instead saw it nearly fully formed, in all of its complex greatness, and was simply overwhelmed. This sense of being overwhelmed is a shame, because there's a lot of good stuff here, too.

[Steerpike]

I've heard so many references to the Jade Stage (and always meant to investigate it through the Archives, but always seemed to get dragged away after reading through the primer) that it's good to really see it properly displayed here again.  I'll be slowly absorbing the staggering amount of detail here, but my first impression is of great abundance of detail and exotic flavoring.  I'd probably second sparkletwist's issue with visualizing the setting, although I haven't read the setting at all thoroughly - I've been seeing snips of (often very beautiful or distinctive) physical detail, but in general you focus on "larger" or less superficial elements.  I think your primer does do a good job of introducing the world more generally, and I don't think you should feel the need to define the Jade Stage generically (It's "Steampunk"), but some more... perhaps the word is "textures" would be helpful.

I will say that I ADORE the Fen and the idea of Farport, as a fan of all things grotesque.  Your greenblooded elves, also, are really distinctive and fascinating, very fey in some ways, a concept that as has been remarked in my side-setting "The Tangle" is difficult to convey.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

My review will be somewhat disjointed, largely because the presentation of the setting is the same. This is not a critique of your writing (which is by and large excellent) but rather your organization. This setting is vast, and there is a lot of information there-- a lot of very detailed information. It's possible to get very deep into the details of some race, faction, or whatnot, without having even gotten a handle on the basic details of setting. To me, this is a flaw. Some settings have been described as a "coffee table book," but the way the Jade Stage is laid out is more of a dusty old collection of encyclopedias, the index long since misplaced.

The possible exception to this rampant disorganization is the wiki-- wikis are very good at presenting the sort of content that you seem to have a lot of that you want to present-- however, that suffers from a large amount of red links and articles that seem to be not at all connected to other sections of the Jade Stage wiki. Browsing the category pages is the only way to really get to all of the meaty goodness, and that suffers from the same "randomness" that I explained above.

Sparky sums up my longtime feeling about many brilliant settings. Jade Stage is one of the few I've read in depth because so many turn me off through difficult presentation not well suited to a computer screen and a few minutes of perusal. And while I did read everything on JS, I haven't always kept up with it since (two years ago?), though I eagerly keep an eye on the wiki.

Wiki or web organization is the way to go for big settings! She makes other good points, too, but this one struck a cord with me beyond its relevance to JS.

[Lmns Crn]

Hey, hi, hello.

I hate that it's taken me this long to get around to this thread again. There are some wonderful contributions here, and I'm pleased to address them.

As a first order of business, Sparkletwist, I'd be pleased to offer you this review badge, as you've certainly earned it thrice over. (Quote this post for the code, naturally.)

[/url][/center]

not[/i] to miss the forest for the trees, and as you point out, it makes some very basic and important questions unanswerable.

To borrow a line from The Producers, "If you were trying to shoot me through the heart... bullseye!"

Accordingly, my new project shoved to the front of the list is to address organization and general tone issues. I've been pondering presentation issues for the main wiki page, brushing up the overview, and I've recently added an (almost complete) sample adventures page, to help give readers a feel for the setting by suggesting some of the types of things adventurers might actually do in the world. There is obviously still a great deal of work to be done, but I feel I am making headway. However, it's also clear that the proliferation of red links is only going to get worse before it gets better.

the House of Death has Four Walls[/url]. This thread contains information about the Cardan faith, a popular Jade Stage polytheistic religion originating with the dwarves of Cardannis. To a lesser extent, there's some rudimentary information about the creepy goblin beliefs of Farras, concerning the watery nature of the soul and communion with dead spirits, etc. Some people have told me it's a pretty fun read, though it is rather... huge.

Again, I really appreciate your review, and I really appreciate your no-holds-barred attitude concerning criticism. You've illuminated a lot of things that I can do to improve my work, and that's a delicious circumstance. Here's hoping you continue to enjoy these humble scrawlings of mine.