Friday Forum Philosophy - Week 2

[LD]

Sad story Phoenix; sounds as though it was well-executed however.

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I had some fun with one putatively good party; they ran into one of my favorite NPC wizards after they chased an enemy to the bottom of a mansion. In the basement the character was sealing the tomb of his brother who had been killed by the PCs' enemy. Now, this wizard and his brother were both NE characters, and the wizard had several levels on the party L11/12 to L6/7. The players did not know this and they were trespassing on his property.

One player approached the wizard and got a magic missile to the face. The wizard prepared to assault the party (note: his spells were mostly spent from a battle with the party's enemy-thus it was not ridiculous to put a party of 6 level 6-7s v. a 11-12.). Another, a barbarian walked up and yelled at the guy, then told him who they were hunting and to give them some straight answers (and made a few DC 25 intimidate checks). The wizard perked up, respected the brash barb

arian (but did not really fear him) and started speaking. Because of their interaction there and shared purpose, the party allied with this wizard- an extremely rude, arrogant, and abrasive ally.

The wizard was extremely vengeful and nasty; but he always helped the characters since he saw them as his only allies in the entire world. He was a good source when I was looking to give the characters treasure (2 of the rarest scrolls of magic; with the spell weird), an extra party member to fill in a group (when assaulting the key enemy), or information.

He never pushed too far into the blatantly evil category, but he always spoke condenscendingly to the group- yet they saw him as a cranky mentor (who rather helped their plans) rather than as an annoyance. It was an interesting dynamic.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

I really forgot to mention the most recent one that I'm pretty proud of (that Phoenix' post actually kind of reminded me of).  In a campaign of my brother's just a couple years ago, I played a druid named Jael.  We all played together till about level 9 or 10 or so, when my brother decided to stop GMing, and I took over.  So my druid left the group and bro's character joined.  After a few sessions, they started hearing about some strange happenings involving nature - a river had flooded a village, killing dozens of people, a rock-slide had killed hundreds, trees in an ancient forest had come to life and killed a bunch of lumberjacks, things like that.  They eventually tracked the happenings down to a cult that was trying to bring about an ancient magic called the Primeval, which was essentially (as Eldo so eloquently put when I first put the idea up to him), a "rebooting" of the world - the world would turn back in time thousands of years to when it was pure, before humans had corrupted the planet.  They chased the cult down, and eventually found that Jael, who had gone mad after watching his village slaughtered by humans, had researched the magic and was trying to bring it to pass.  They had a big showdown with him that ended up being pretty emotional, since none of them wanted to kill him, but Jael had completely lost it, and had no qualms about trying to kill the party, setting dire bears and tree sentinels on them like crazy.  I don't know if he was utterly my favorite villain ever, but he definitely stirred up emotions in the players that were atypical in a game.

Fun stuff

[Matt Larkin (author)]

So one of the questions that's barely been tackled so far:

How do you make oblivion appealing? How does a demon wanting to destroy the world make this sound like a good idea to his minions?

[Acrimone]

Because if the demon's minions keep doing what the demon says, they get to live at least a little longer.

[Ghostman]

If the demon belongs to a different sphere of existence (or something that falls altogether outside the concept of existence that we are able to understand) then it's willingness to end the world would not conflict with it's presumed desire to live.

If the scenario where it succeeds would involve it's own destruction, it ought to have a very strong motive; something it would consider worthy of self-sacrifice. All assuming, of corse, that demons actually possess either instinctual or rational desire for self-preservation...

In case of non-demonic minions, it doesn't have to reveal it's true motives, what ever those may be. Two obvious ways to ensure cooperation:
A) Conceal the fact that end of the world is the goal. Minions are led to think that their actions are aimed at some much more agreeable outcome.
B) Religious fanaticism. Minions are indoctrinated in a faith that justifies, one way or another, the destruction of their world. Given how crazy cults can get in the real world, it's hardly a stretch that a fantasy setting with real demons might get people behind something like that. They just need to be convinced that some ultimate good (altruistic or personal) will be served by it.

[Steerpike]

[blockquote=Lord Vreeg]Nicely done, as well as a timely post.  does K know the name of teh wizard or the adventuring crew?[/blockquote]  The player might, but Kraashgar doesn't yet. I'm going to try and find a way to include more tales of their exploits to furtehr build up their sense of menace.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

In case of non-demonic minions, it doesn't have to reveal it's true motives, what ever those may be. Two obvious ways to ensure cooperation:
A) Conceal the fact that end of the world is the goal. Minions are led to think that their actions are aimed at some much more agreeable outcome.
B) Religious fanaticism. Minions are indoctrinated in a faith that justifies, one way or another, the destruction of their world. Given how crazy cults can get in the real world, it's hardly a stretch that a fantasy setting with real demons might get people behind something like that. They just need to be convinced that some ultimate good (altruistic or personal) will be served by it.

C) Nihilism.  Some people just hate life so much that they don't care what happens to the world.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

In case of non-demonic minions, it doesn't have to reveal it's true motives, what ever those may be. Two obvious ways to ensure cooperation:
A) Conceal the fact that end of the world is the goal. Minions are led to think that their actions are aimed at some much more agreeable outcome.
B) Religious fanaticism. Minions are indoctrinated in a faith that justifies, one way or another, the destruction of their world. Given how crazy cults can get in the real world, it's hardly a stretch that a fantasy setting with real demons might get people behind something like that. They just need to be convinced that some ultimate good (altruistic or personal) will be served by it.

C) Nihilism.  Some people just hate life so much that they don't care what happens to the world.

Perhaps, but that's not what nihilism means. Nihilists believe no values exist, or at least no intrinsic values in life, not that they are apathetic or hate life.

Besides, truly apathetic individuals are unlikely to care enough to work for the demon anyway, right? Destroying the world is liable to take a lot of work.

Those that hate life, however, could conceivable be so bitter that they want to see everything fall into oblivion.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Perhaps, but that's not what nihilism means. Nihilists believe no values exist, or at least no intrinsic values in life, not that they are apathetic or hate life.

Besides, truly apathetic individuals are unlikely to care enough to work for the demon anyway, right? Destroying the world is liable to take a lot of work.

Just my lack of knowledge showing through. x.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I ran one game with an over-the-top, pure villain that was still memorable and I think the players liked. They didn't know who or what he was for a long time, and one of them kept calling him the Shadowman.

Anyway, he followed them around from time to time, usually forcing them to flee since he was apparently indestructible and really powerful. He fulfilled Acrimone's requirement of doing really nasty things too, slaughtering the PCs home city and raising everybody as zombies, including one of the PC's lover, who became a recurring villain in her own right.

He didn't destroy the PCs, so they gathered he wanted something. When they finally found a way to destroy his body, they realized: he possessed the party leader, who became the new villain. (The player switched characters for a few months until they rescued the old hero.)

But I mention him, because he was interesting while having no redeeming qualities really. He was brutal, evil, and they didn't uncover any of his backstory until much later (and it didn't make him more sympathetic.)

Still, I think what him more interesting, was that he was recurring. They had time to learn to hate him. Also, players tend to hate anything that forces them to run away ;)