The Skillz system

[the_taken]

(I seriously wish I could come up with better names.)

Here's an idea: What if there's no such thing as a class. Samurai is a title, as is Cleric and Pirate. That's the basis of my idea for a system. As nice and easy as the D&D sytem is, it's arbritrary designation of abilities given out one level at a time messes with multiclass characters like those that want the best of both worlds from a barbarian and cleric.
The skill system is a little weird, especialy Profession. Also the maximum number of ranks can be changed by the addition of one class, but purchasing those ranks is realy expensive.
Some people has a little trouble with Vancian Magic. And I have to admit, spell slots are kinda wonky. And there's no flavor that explains what a spell slot is. What's up with that? For all anybody knows, they could be pouches in your utility belt filled with one use gagets. As you gain 'wizard' levels you learn to make your pouches and gagets smaller and stronger, alowing you to hold more gagets as you can make more and more pouches. That would make sense if you understood the material componant joke. But none know about the joke and it makes magic seem less magical anyway. When you say a word of power, the laws of physics will bend to your will every single time.
Also, feats suck. Especialy combat feats. They don't scale in level, they don't become better the more you get, and a fighter can complete a combat tree in less than 9 levels. Meaning that they are not as powerful at higher levels when regular characters can get them.

What I propose is a system based almost entirely apon skill ranks, racial atributes and ability scores, nothing else. I'm going to try and make a system where your character grows organicaly and totaly freeform.
I'm not doing this to scare people, but as a mental excersise. And an ego boost. I believe it's possible to make a better sytem than what WotC has given.
Feel free to comment or sugest, but don't compare this system to D&D. This is going to be incompatible with it.



Part 1: Ability scores
No need to change anything here, aside from the removal of bonus spell slots. The ability score part of the system works just fine. Also switching to a point buy system is reckamended. There is little sense (none that I know of, actualy) in making character creation a gamble. Their whole life is going to be a very big series of gambles, so lets give them some slack.

Part 2: Race and Background

Here is a totaly far out, bat-shit crazy idea. Instead of making a large list of races with preset abilites and flavour, let's make a whole bunch of basic componants that you can mix together to make a custom one of your own. Picking certain atributes will affect your ability scores and some of your skills. I'm not done this part, but this means that there is no shuch thing as a subrace of elves. since each elf is it's own race, and will probably be called something else. This'll also mean that there will be human subraces. :1337:

The process:

Pick your base creature type*Pick your subtype*Pick your region type*Pick your aptitudes*Pick your background/upbringing*Pick your special power*Make a physical description for your character

What the actual componants are is still in progress, although I have a very good idea of what the region types are. I'm open to suggestions.

Making an elf would be something like:

Fey type*Warrior subtype*Temperate Forest region*Magic aptitude*Sage upbringing*Elves are pretty people with long pointy ears and a thin frame.
They're not as tough as most other people, but they're very agile,
good with bows, and adept at mixing martial prowess with arcane might.
Most also have shiny pants

While an orc goes something like:

Savage type*Warrior subtype*Temperate Badlands region*Weapons aptitude*Tribes upbringing*Orcs are a backwards and savage people, and often cruel.
They're also not very good looking, what with thier olive-grey skin,
a snout like a pig, small yellow tusks (often chipped, and/or full of cavities),
long greasy black hair, and extreme body hair.
They smell bad too, sice hygien is an alien philosiphy to them.

[Numinous]

It'll take a lot of work, and require a lot of playtesting to be truly effective.  If you're having fun making this though, keep going.  It'll make for interesting reading, and it's a good idea anyway.

My constructive criticism here is on the race system.  I'm not sure how easy it would be to DM when races are random conglmerations of abilities.  I really see no reason to mess with the races.  Perhaps a compendium of racial abilities and their approximate values would be useful for a DM to use in creating his own races though.  I really think a mix-and-match approach is better implemented in the "training" part of a character.  Where as a character gains levels, he can select abilities, and maybe each one has a cost that he can pay for out of points he gets for levellign up.

Just my thoughts...

[Raelifin]

Check out the Uber Generics. They are very interesting. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=282481

[Xeviat]

the_taken, you may want to keep an eye on some of the material I've been working on. I have discarded Vancian magic in my games and am now using an MP system based off of the XPH psionics system (complete with augments). Races in my world have been broken up into Race and culture; currently there are three ethnicities of each of the primary races and each of those ethnicities have different cultural traits.

For instance, a dwarf's favored class: fighter, weapon familiarity, starting languages, and bonus on Craft and Appraise checks are cultural traits shared by the Mountain Dwarves of my setting. Hill Dwarves and Deep Dwarves have different cultural traits.

Secondly, or was it thirdly, I have a pet project I am calling d20 2.0. I intend to alter the base d20 system by allowing characters to purchase many of their abilities through the use of character points; characters gain character points at the same rate they gain XP (and the XP table will be different). Characters will still level up at certain XP marks, but you will purchase your skills, feats, and ability score increases with character points (I am retaining classes because I feel that each class is a set of abilities that characters must learn in order, thus the reason you cannot purchase most mid to high level class abilities as feats). Base Attack Bonus will be removed and replaced with Weapon Group Skills.

The advantage of this system is that a character can grow in the direction they want to grow. Additionally, it is easier to purchase low level abilities (such as first tier feats and low skill ranks) because costs will be multiplicative: for instance, skills cost a number of character points equal to the rank you are purchasing; 1st rank costs 1 point, 4th rank costs 4 points. Ability scores start at 8 (before racial modifiers), increasing to 9, 10, or 11 costs 2 points points, 12 and 13 cost 4 points, 14 and 15 cost 6 points ... Again, these points aren't yet finalized, but you can see the direction I am headed.

The basic idea is taken from the character progression mechanics of L5R and White Wolf games, but it will be modified to fit the d20 system. I should be able to begin work on it soon.

[Túrin]

Araes' Indistinguishable from Magic thread on the WotC boards has seen some discussion of some of these ideas, especially breaking down races into their base components, very much like what you're doing. See the index of the thread in post #1 or search near the bottom of page 1 and top of page 2.

Other than that, interesting project. I bet working on this will be very inspirational. Best of luck!

Túrin

[CYMRO]

(I am retaining classes because I feel that each class is a set of abilities that characters must learn in order, thus the reason you cannot purchase most mid to high level class abilities as feats).

It is possible to make certain skills prerequisite for others without the whole class thing, though I heartily applaud your approach.  
A similar system I have been working on, based off of paying an xp cost for everything, each skill upgrade, independent of most others.  I want to do spell groups like weapon groups then have the ablity to augment each spell within a group...but reduce the number of spells greatly.


The XP part is the real pain in the ass, though...

[Lmns Crn]

There are a few systems available that you could scavenge for ideas, or even coopt entirely. West End Games' d6 system and White Wolf's excellent character creation system come easily to mind, and both also feature built-in systems for using "XP" to purchase additional character powerups flexibly and gradually (rather than waiting for the big, largely-scripted payoff that a level-based system is designed around.)

You don't say it explicitly, but doing away with classes would seem to imply also doing away with levels, which is probably not a bad idea. Levels are useful in a particular sort of gaming style only, and there are plenty of other styles to play with where levels make very little sense.

I'm really not sure where you're going with the flexible races, but if you back it up with flavor, you might easily change my mind. For example, in a game where every player character is a unique sort of being, distinct from all other creatures, it would clearly work. In a world where, for whatever reason, everyone is born with a unique and personal sort of innate power or magic, likewise. But without some sort of in-game explanation for why everyone is so completely unique, I'm having a hard time swallowing the flexible race system.

[CYMRO]

You don't say it explicitly, but doing away with classes would seem to imply also doing away with levels, which is probably not a bad idea. Levels are useful in a particular sort of gaming style only, and there are plenty of other styles to play with where levels make very little sense.

I didn't say it, but it is true.  A character's "levels" or "ranks" would vary according to each skill, so that Joe might have uber ranks in axe skills, but be a barely competent with sword or bow and have mad healing and lightning skills, but couldn't do a fire spell to save his life.

It would be impossible to pigeonhole him into a traditional level.  
CRs then become the other problem...

[Johnny Wraith]

I've toyed with this idea myself... It was certainly a lot of work because I wanted to create a system in which a character that, for instance, had never climbed anything between level 3 and level 4 would be unable to put any skill points in it (Because that always seemed like a weird idea to me). I don't recall right now.. but I think it was Cyberpunk that had a similar system, you gained points whenever you used an ability and eventually you reached a new 'level'... but that was the only way to advance in it.

Eventually, I had to set that aside for a while since it took so much of my time trying to keep everything balanced and just... fixing things here and there that I just couldn't develop the world itself. As Natural 20 said, though, you should try playtesting your system as much as you can.

[the_taken]

Whoa! The responses, dude!

Sir Crit, I agree that this is alot of work. But anything worth doing isn't going to be easy or simple.
The componants that would make up the race part of the system would be varied enough that you could create anything, and a set of pre-fab's would be included in the package, encompasing the standard D&D critters.

Raelifin and others, I'm not going to look at other systems 'till I reach a brick wall. I suspect it'll happen often though.

Xeviat, an MP system is cool and all, but my idea of magic is stamina based, not batery based. I'm thinking of incoperating a WP/VP system where VP can be used up to cast a spell, and VP also restores pretty fast on it's own.
To your third point, I never liked trading XP for power. The wizard makes a potion, spending XP, then can't make another potion 'cause that would make him drop a level and forget how to make a potion. Lame. Idealy, crafting a magical item shoud give you XP from the experiance, but that's very abusable. :P

CYMRO, certain skills will not be prerequisits for other skills. However, having certain ranks in a skill alows you to perform what I like to call a feat. Skills will also synergise, not in the way that you gain a bonus to a skill check, but the performing certain feats may require ranks in multiple skills. Some skills aren't even good without synergising with others.
For example: Alchemy and say, Elemental Magic [Lighting]. Having ranks in alchemy allows you to magicaly reinforce mundane stuff using magic. Shields become tougher, swords become sharper, etc. while having ranks in lightning magic allows you to create thunderbolts and waves of electricity. Having enough ranks in both allows you to have a sword that crackels with 50 megawatts and shouts sparks whenever it strikes. Alchemy on it's own is only marginaly impressive, and constantly blasting using spells will eventualy deplete you stamina. But making a stick that crackles with powers is alot more reliable and powerful than either of the two alone.

Next post will contain some more mechanics.

[Numinous]

Sir Crit, I agree that this is alot of work. But anything worth doing isn't going to be easy or simple.

Cool, I got knighted!  Anyway, I wish you good luck on this endeavor, and remember to have fun!

[the_taken]

I'll be dividing the skills into Combat Maneuvers, Weapon Styles, Tactical Skills, Passive Magic, Active Magic, and Monsterous Upgrades

Part 3: Weapon Styles - not difinitive yet

Strait Blades Proficiency
Ranks in this skill determins your ability to wield swords, wether they are in one hand, or in both.

Progressive Benefit: You gain competance bonus to your melee attack rolls with strait blades equal to half the nummber of ranks you have.
 2 Basic Proficiency - You may now make critical hits with a sword
 4 Advanced Proficiency - The critical thread range of a strait blade you wield is now 19-20. It still only does double damage on a successful critical hit.

Small Weapons Style
You use smaller weapons much faster than a larger one, making more attacks.

Pregressive Benefit: You gain a competence bonus to your melee attack rolls with light weapons equal to half the nummber of ranks you have.
 6 Basic Feat - During a full-attack, where you attack with a light weapon, you gain an additional attack with that weapon at a -5 penalty. You may not make an additional from an additional attack.
 10 Advanced Feat - You may make two additional attacks, instead of 1, but still at a -5 penalty. You still don't gain addional attacks from the additional attacks.
 15 Expert Feat - Whenever you score a critical threat with a light weapon, you may make an additional attack against the same target at the same attack bonus. Targets immune to critical hits are still susceptible to this additional attack. You do not gain an additonal attack by the previous feats from this attack, though a critical threat still generates another attack.

Two-weapon Fighting
You can fight with an additional weapon, attacking and hitting twice as often.
 Progressive Benefit: For every attack you make with your primary weapon, you may make an additional attack with your secondary weapon, up to a maximum of one additional attack for every five ranks you have in Two-weapon Fighting. This attack only deals the weapon's damage plus half your of strength bonus, though your full strength penalty would aply to damage as normal.


More to come. Dinner...

[Túrin]

2 Basic Proficiency - You may not make critical hits with a sword

I assume this is a typo, and you meant to say "now" instead of "not". Or did you? :?:

[the_taken]

2 Basic Proficiency - You may not make critical hits with a sword

I assume this is a typo, and you meant to say "now" instead of "not". Or did you? :?:

You are absolutely corrects in assuming that you are allowed to make critical hits with the weapon. A horrible typo on my part (I got called into work early and that threw me off.)

[the_taken]

Gdish! Only stuff out everytime I become inpired is going to realy slag down production as I have to wait to type. I'm now carrying a norebook and will write everything as it pops into my brain.