The Sahuagin Question

[CYMRO]

Fun times. Although I prefer to have my lizardfolk as angry tribal hunters that consider most mammals to be food.

Why all the anger?  Can't we all get along in the spirit of bipedal harmony? :D

[the_taken]

Fun times. Although I prefer to have my lizardfolk as angry tribal hunters that consider most mammals to be food.

Why all the anger?  Can't we all get along in the spirit of bipedal harmony? :D

It's the beans. Swampbeans the most aabundant source of protein in the swamps. They're also three times thicker than any field bean. Mammals provide a quieter, more relaxing source of protein.

[CYMRO]

Let them eat Cake!

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Tea and cake, or death?

[CYMRO]

Tea and cake, or death?

Why not both? ny order they choose...

[snakefing]

Some random thoughts:

Even obsessively lawful creatures don't necessarily make a for a single unified empire. There could be multiple nations of sahuagin, or splinter groups. After all, if the Great Mothers of the Deep have a disagreement, there's no group Great Grandmothers of the Deep to dictate the solution - the result could be civil war, where all the followers of various factions are compelled by the lawful nature to obey their faction leaders...

Also, even the sahuagin don't really rule the sea. The continental shelves, sure, but who knows what menace lurks in the deep trenches and sea basins, where even sahuagin can not live? Perhaps they raid the land for resources to support a battle against hideous giant sea worms from the deeps, or swarms of blind, carnivorous eels that periodically rise up out of the dark depths... Vicious battles for survival, the mere glimpse of which send even the bravest surface dwellers fleeing for the shallows.

The sahuagin are commonly seen as evil, but perhaps it is only because humans, their lessers, only know a fraction of what it is like to actually be sahuagin. Ask the aged elven sages, they might tell you ancient tales that would truly curdle your blood. Faced against such monstrous foes, the sahuagin do only what they consider needful. Heedless of the effects on the surface races, they fight desperately to keep the chaos hordes of the deeps from overwhelming the world in its entirety.

Okay, enough thinking for now, my head hurts.

[Tybalt]

I am against the 'evil is relative' idea. Not just my personal belief but that of my favourite authors as well. However I do like your ideas about the environment the Sahuagin live in very much. Furthermore while I don't like moral relativist arguments I do like the idea that theoretically the Sahuagin could change as a society.

While trying to think about what they are like I have kind of fallen for the "Predator" idea, that in a way they are a very proud, brave, tough people who test themselves to extremes. Possibly it could be because they actually face deeper, darker foes near the continental shelves' edges or near deep rifts.

However I'm having another thought: what if this could tie in with my idea about my particular campaign in part focusing ultimately on the discovery of the extraterrestrial origins of humanity? This might introduce another element altogether. For instance the Sahuagin could be one of the few sentient races on the planet with any true history of this, but have dismissed humanity for the most part for falling from their power (like the goblinoids) and becoming in effect a balkanized, confused, inferior people. But there might be some who take this knowledge seriously, and so that adds another motive to move into the waters near New Edom...because the Sahuagin know that inland of the channel that divides New Edom from Goblinland is the wreckage of the starship.

Thoughts swirling around...we'll see.

[snakefing]

Well, you don't have to go too far down the relativistic path with this. Humans only usually encounter sahuagin in a specific context, so their view of them might be either (a) mistaken, or (b) a bit skewed.

Specifically, it is possible that (in this campaign) the sahuagin are really more lawful neutral, but humans mistake them for evil because there is just a natural disconnect between the needs of the sahuagin and those of humans.

Alternatively, it may be that the sahuagin really are lawful evil - but in their own minds they see themselves as primarily lawful. Their focus on maintaining order (perhaps as part of their own internal or external conflicts) has led, over the eons, to a sort of brutal ruthlessness about it that has definitely shaded into evil.

Either way, humans are certainly right to oppose them, if only to protect their own rightful interests.

In your campaign, do you see the sahuagin as being natives and the humans as the interlopers? That could provide a deep-seated ancestral reason for the sahuagin antipathy toward humans. The orderly nature of their society could result in such feelings being passed down from generation to generation for a very long time.

[Tybalt]

Yes, I do see Sahuagin as being the natives. Humans are originally extra-terrestrials in my game world. I think you are quite right, that it could be a much more deeply seated view with the Sahuagin.

[Tybalt]

One thing that I recently thought of when looking at my own tropical fish was this: purely aquatic creatures see the air as a hostile environment. That might seem like such an obvious thought that some are probably saying "Duh!" but I realized that it's a big deal. Of course Sahuagin are only going to deal with coastal areas, and those that are hostile or begin to recognize them they will avoid. Thus they are cast into myth and legend and barely known of. The seas are also vast, and the other aquatic creatures might have in older times gone out of their way to avoid them.

Thus I'm depicting the aquatic races such as the Lizard Folk (who are semi-aquatic) Locathah, Merfolk and Sea-Elves as seldom ever encountering Sahuagin. Their incursion into the territory of the Silver Channel in my campaign is a disaster beyond precedent!

However I'm also going to tie the Sahuagin into the origins of humanity in my campaign world. If there are two rival groups for world  domination, it is humanity and the Sahuagin.

Both are nationally speaking balkanized, certainly I picture the Sahuagin as having 'nations' just as much as the humans do...actually I was picturing something vaguely like the Aztec League in which a number of different nations have almost ritual forms of contest, war and harmonious involvement according to religion.

However there is really no chance of either bringing war to the other as yet. What I did have in mind though was in the question of the origin of humanity to possibly present the extra-terrestrial origins in some fashion and along with it a temptation via the use of powerful artifacts. At some distant point in the campaign, or possibly in another in my campaign world.