Why do you like grit?

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

The title is the question (the form of "grit" used refers to the second word of "grim and gritty" or use LordVreeg's definition presented below).  Here's the elaboration: I hear the word "grit" come up often when people talk about what they want in roleplaying settings.  I wouldn't be so confused if it didn't seem to come up a lot more than any alternative.  So I want to know why people seem to like it more than any other tone.  If you like "grit" please say why.

(If you don't like "grit" you may also speak up and say why.)

[beejazz]

What exactly *is* grit, first of all?

Does it have anything to do with the cult of true grit in Scud: Disposable Assassin?
Or are you talking about the grit portion of the equally ambiguous phrase "grim 'n' gritty?"
Or maybe you're referring to a traditional southern breakfast food consisting of ground corn?
What exactly is the opposite end of the spectrum? Gloss?

I personally like grits because they're delicious.

[SA]

^ What he said.

I'm not really fond of grit, though I was once.  Neither do I think grit and "gloss" exist on some kind of continuum (assuming for a moment that I have any idea how these terms are defined).

I shan't go on any more lest I never stop.

[LordVreeg]

OOOH.  Good topic right up my desiccated alley.

Any Newspaper that has been written about rural America for over a hundred years is probably out of ideas by now.

Oops, wrong Grit.

Grit, in setting teminology, needs to be defined, if we are going to figure out what about it makes it so useful an umbrella-term.

Firstly, it is important to understand that we are talking about fantasy/fiction games, which diverge from realism by definition.  

Partially, 'Gritty' is actually somewhat of a code-word for 'realistic', but less oxymoronic than calling a game a 'realistic-fantasy'.  Since many game designers go into great lengths defending their system by pooh-poohing attempts to make games more realistic, the term 'gritty' is used instead.

A 'Gritty' game is also often lower power, and more dangerous, and one where the everyday effects of a setting affect the players more strongly than a typical D&D game.  In a gritty game, players need to worry about getting from here to there, and about the food.  In a gritty game, players have to buy locks on their doors when they leave their apartments. In a gritty game, the enemies of the players are devious and clever.  
In a gritty game, you don't 'take 6 hits of damage', you 'get sliced open on the right thigh for 6 hits.  That's pretty deep.  I rolled a 13% for the armor, so the armor isn't permanently ruined.  Remember to get it wrapped up, 'cause a cut that deep will get a roll for infection within 6 hours'.
In a 'Gritty' game, people bleed when they are hit.  Clothes get ruined.
'Gritty' means that if the players go right from a long adventure to a throne room, people turn up their noses.
'Gritty' means that actions have consequences, and a bar that you almost burned down last time you were in that town will at best call the town watrch if you show up again, and at worst send someone to to poison your drink after they bar the door at their own place.


'Gritty' is Glen Cook, and Gene Wolfe.

'Gritty' is NOT epic.  

That should be a good start understanding what my perception of 'Gritty' is.

Now, I am going to get a little bit opiniated here.  Nothing new there, but I figured I'd try to be polite first.
Gritty is more adult.
Much like the difference between children's stories and adult fiction, games often get 'grittier' as the participants get older.  Older players are more able to deal with rough times, where younger players get frustrated.

Good thread question, I'll try to look in later.



 

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Or are you talking about the grit portion of the equally ambiguous phrase "grim 'n' gritty?"

*bangs head repeatedly in humiliation*

That one.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Gritty is more adult.
Much like the difference between children's stories and adult fiction, games often get 'grittier' as the participants get older.  Older players are more able to deal with rough times, where younger players get frustrated.

That could explain it.  "Gritty" situations seem to me like an exercise in futility, but that's because I have no patience with a world that isn't worth saving and a system of play that wants to hold me back.

Though it's interesting that you use the word "adult".  I tend to think that adults are quite as "adult" as they believe themselves to be.  Just trying thinking about all the world's problems as if they were in a context with kids and you may see what I mean.

[LordVreeg]

Gritty is more adult.
Much like the difference between children's stories and adult fiction, games often get 'grittier' as the participants get older.  Older players are more able to deal with rough times, where younger players get frustrated.

That could explain it.  "Gritty" situations seem to me like an exercise in futility, but that's because I have no patience with a world that isn't worth saving and a system of play that wants to hold me back.

Though it's interesting that you use the word "adult".  I tend to think that adults are quite as "adult" as they believe themselves to be.  Just trying thinking about all the world's problems as if they were in a context with kids and you may see what I mean.

Yes, well, I apologized before I went there for a good reason.  I did know who posted this thread and remembered your terminology and preferences from those previous ones.  But 'fools rush in', and I am no angel.
I think you meant to say that adults are not as "adult" as they believe themselves to be (italics and said content mine).  And the next sentence I am also a bit at a loss with, as well.

But while I certainly do not speak for everyone, and while I also enjoy a rousing game of 'munchkin', I do speak from a perspective of some experience.  Nor am I saying that an 'adult and gritty' game is the only good one or even a preferential one, as another peculiarity of the 'adult' world I have noted in other threads is my experiences that many adults look at the whole rpg past-time as a pursuit for younger, less mature people.

Since most of my players are older, and over half of them are busy raising children of their own (and some of those children are in their teens and are already gaming as well), and as I keep very especial track of the older gamers I meet, I feel comfortable in saying their is a tendency (and just that-a tendency, not an absolute certain path) towards grittiness.  

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I'm not sure that any easy answer can be given to most "why do you like X?" questions, unless that answer is the unhelpful "because I'm happier when dealing with X."

I like a mix. Sometimes a gritty Conan-style sword & sorcery game is fun. Sometimes I want to save the world and have an epic adventure. Just as sometimes I want to tell a dark fantasy story, and sometimes I want a surreal fairytale, and sometimes epic high fantasy.

Why? Because sometimes I enjoy different things? I'm not sure I can a better answer without straying far from the original question.

That could explain it.  "Gritty" situations seem to me like an exercise in futility, but that's because I have no patience with a world that isn't worth saving and a system of play that wants to hold me back.

Though it's interesting that you use the word "adult".  I tend to think that adults are quite as "adult" as they believe themselves to be.  Just trying thinking about all the world's problems as if they were in a context with kids and you may see what I mean.
[/quote]
That's oxymoronic. You mean, perhaps, that you think you are more mature than the average adult; or perhaps just that your expectations are too high? To say the average adult is not adult makes no sense. It's like saying most people are idiots; it's a self-contradictory statement.

[beejazz]

Gritty is more adult.
Much like the difference between children's stories and adult fiction, games often get 'grittier' as the participants get older.  Older players are more able to deal with rough times, where younger players get frustrated.

That could explain it.  "Gritty" situations seem to me like an exercise in futility, but that's because I have no patience with a world that isn't worth saving and a system of play that wants to hold me back.

Though it's interesting that you use the word "adult".  I tend to think that adults are quite as "adult" as they believe themselves to be.  Just trying thinking about all the world's problems as if they were in a context with kids and you may see what I mean.

I'd tend to consider both of the things being said (and some of the things being implied) here close but no cigar.

Gritty doesn't mean either that the world isn't worth saving (in fact, that's even more fatalistic than the grim portion of grim and gritty would allow) or that the system is deliberately trying to hinder you (whatever GURPS' views on realism).

Gritty also doesn't mean more mature, necessarily. I know plenty of grown ups have every bit as much fun with the whole high-flying adventure thing. The idea that it's more mature, if anything, comes from the fact that it specifically holds *less* appeal for the extremely young. Around high school and college age, kids get kind of frustrated and disenfranchised with life. Not so much because life is actually bad as because they feel held back from participating in it. A similar thing happens when people hit retirement. And in all cases, people who really get into gaming get sick of cakewalks sometimes.

Anyway, gritty also isn't equatable with "dark" even if grim and gritty is its own (yes, dark) genre. It's a different kind of dark in that it is... uh... dirtier is the best word I can come up with. Heroes have to work. In a fight, there isn't endless whiffing and dodging (the Matrix or Underworld, while dark, are often the antithesis of grit). The color scheme starts with that black background, but often has a foreground illuminated by yellow light, and middle ground occupied by earth tones (this is as opposed to a "sexier" take on dark tones produced by using blue light against a black background). Grim and gritty isn't necessarily a thing where everyone that gets punched in the head dies either... but the injuries do tend to prevent you from retaliating and encourage you to regroup/plot revenge/whatever. People use improvised weapons or unarmed combat. Sometimes they fight with other intentions than killing... like because they just happen to be drunk and angry.

Anyway, take the grimness out of grim and gritty and put it into another context and you get things like Conan the Barbarian. Not so much doom and gloom, but again you get a much more "solid" feel about things.

That's it. Grittiness is an earthy quality. A solidity of things. A dirtiness of things. A "realness" if you will. While it does tend to eschew "loftier" themes, there isn't anything inherently dark about it.

[SA]

There, all I had to do was wait, and Phoenix and Beeblebrox did all my talking for me.

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=Beeb ]Anyway, gritty also isn't equatable with "dark" even if grim and gritty is its own (yes, dark) genre. It's a different kind of dark in that it is... uh... dirtier is the best word I can come up with. Heroes have to work. In a fight, there isn't endless whiffing and dodging (the Matrix or Underworld, while dark, are often the antithesis of grit). The color scheme starts with that black background, but often has a foreground illuminated by yellow light, and middle ground occupied by earth tones (this is as opposed to a "sexier" take on dark tones produced by using blue light against a black background). Grim and gritty isn't necessarily a thing where everyone that gets punched in the head dies either... but the injuries do tend to prevent you from retaliating and encourage you to regroup/plot revenge/whatever. People use improvised weapons or unarmed combat. Sometimes they fight with other intentions than killing... like because they just happen to be drunk and angry.

Anyway, take the grimness out of grim and gritty and put it into another context and you get things like Conan the Barbarian. Not so much doom and gloom, but again you get a much more "solid" feel about things.[/blockquote]

Love the color analogy.  Just love it.

However, I'm going to point out that both you and I used some combat metaphors to help describe gritty, where a side effect of many gritty games, aside from what we have discussed so far, is a tendency to diminish the importance of combat.  Since combat tends to have more lethality, combat itelf tends to become one of the means of conflict resolution in a more gritty game, not the only one.

And as an adult speaking to other mature individuals, I expect one and all to understand that I am merely speaking from my perspective,. and claim no other especial veracity.

[beejazz]

However, I'm going to point out that both you and I used some combat metaphors to help describe gritty, where a side effect of many gritty games, aside from what we have discussed so far, is a tendency to diminish the importance of combat.  Since combat tends to have more lethality, combat itelf tends to become one of the means of conflict resolution in a more gritty game, not the only one.

Yes. Violence is punctuated by lots of other things. Now, I'm a combat monster and system buff myself... but I feel that making violence a once a session (if that) occurrence actually accentuates its importance. There's the initial plot leading up to it. There's finding out who your foe is (because people who do things worth killing over hide their identities or run in fear of retaliation). There's hiding your identity or running if you do something wrong (similar reasons). There's the actual fight, which is (in a good system) not just swing-miss-swing-hit or wars of attrition with hp but involves finding and losing weapons, incapacitating hits, etc. and may eventually force you on the run.

There's kind of a natural progression of rising and falling action. The conflict doesn't always get resolved, but never underestimate a cliffhanger. Throw your favorite genre into the mix and mess with the tropes in game (possibly with a group of players discovering this or that for the first time... as they did when gaming was a new phenomenon) and you've set yourself up for a fun night.

Anyway, grit's a nice thing to do every now and then. Especially when you get bored of other styles, like more heroic gaming. You don't save the world in gritty so much as you try to save your friends, yourself, your ideas, etc. It's more personal. Also you can kind of lose the ultimately virtuous tone. Instead of having to be the paragon of good, you've got one or two things you stand for and to hell with the rest. It's a smaller scope I guess, but more intimate. Both styles are good. Just depends really on what you're in the mood for.

Now I'm rambling.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

You mean, perhaps, that you think you are more mature than the average adult; or perhaps just that your expectations are too high? To say the average adult is not adult makes no sense. It's like saying most people are idiots; it's a self-contradictory statement.

Actually I use "most people are idiots" all the time, with not even a hint of irony.  And I'm using the same definition of "idiot" as everyone else, or at least that same majority I just described.  The fact is that instead of viewing the word as having to describe only a minority position I take it as a rigid definition and apply it wherever I think it fits.  Someone is an idiot if they are doing something foolishly or senselessly (using dictionary definition) stupid when they should easily know better, whether or not the majority of people are like that.

Same thing with "crazy": Pretty much everyone is crazy if they do things based upon reasons that when worked out logically are useless and/or silly.
"Adult": Adults are not as adult as they believe when their definition of "adult" behavior portrays them as having control over their various instinctual/emotional impulses.  If you view them all by that rigid definition they actually spend most, if not all, of the time acting like a slightly different form of child.
****************
Now let me try to address some of the other points:

"The world isn't worth saving": This doesn't mean you have to save the entire world.  It just means that whatever you are saving should meet two criteria: 1) it's better than the thing you're saving it from (I will allow that you can choose your own definition of "better"), 2) you make a measurable gain against the "problem" or "opposition" such that having to go back and prop your gain up is an annoying occasional occurance rather than a daily (not literally) chore.  If a situation doesn't meet those two criteria then any action becomes an exercise in head-banging futility and a stupid waste of time.  It's like trying to bail out a boat filling with water using a sieve: just let the thing sink and you'll waste less energy and there'll be less time spent stressing out over whether you can actually accomplish the action.

The whole "color thing": I like bright, flashy colors, so this is a definite reason why I find "gritty" boring.

"It's more personal": I think we're drifting into different concepts of gritty.  I see no reason why you can't save a personal idea rather than the world in a "glossy" (opposite of gritty) setting nor why you have to be a paragon of good.  I suppose to some people it's easier to do that in a gritty-toned setting because it encourages you not to get involved.

The one issue I still don't get, and may never get, is the whole "gritty matches the players' mood" angle.  If your mood is gritty shouldn't you balance it out with some non-gritty gaming?  I mean you don't take sleeping pills to wake you up in the morning.

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=Silvercatmoonpaw]The whole "color thing": I like bright, flashy colors, so this is a definite reason why I find "gritty" boring.

"It's more personal": I think we're drifting into different concepts of gritty. I see no reason why you can't save a personal idea rather than the world in a "glossy" (opposite of gritty) setting nor why you have to be a paragon of good. I suppose to some people it's easier to do that in a gritty-toned setting because it encourages you not to get involved.

The one issue I still don't get, and may never get, is the whole "gritty matches the players' mood" angle. If your mood is gritty shouldn't you balance it out with some non-gritty gaming? I mean you don't take sleeping pills to wake you up in the morning. [/blockquote]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now we are drifting into another area...what motivates players to play in a world?  Despite protestations to the contrary, most people have a certain set of likes and interests that often work with each other (in terms of the subject's personality).  Competitive people don't seek non-competitive games to 'even out' their experiences, organized folk don't look for loosely notated games, and a medieval history scholar doesn't want a wildly illogical playing world to
'break up all that stuff he's learned'.

Now, it is true that when outside forces contrive to create behaviors that are in opposition to a subject's normal pattern, there is a very strong urge to 'cut loose'.  Our aformentioned organized gamer, when forced in the mundane world to exist in an unorganized enviroment may show a hyperprosexia towards a very organized RPG setting...

So I think a lot of gritty gaming tendency comes from a dovetailing in what they enjoy in their reading and their prefered entertainment, as well as personality.  (I kind feel like I just said that 'people are motivated to like what they like...and that's a waste of words.  May be time for a thread about 'why we game')

[blockquote=ArtistiBeeb]Yes. Violence is punctuated by lots of other things. Now, I'm a combat monster and system buff myself... but I feel that making violence a once a session (if that) occurrence actually accentuates its importance. There's the initial plot leading up to it. There's finding out who your foe is (because people who do things worth killing over hide their identities or run in fear of retaliation). There's hiding your identity or running if you do something wrong (similar reasons). There's the actual fight, which is (in a good system) not just swing-miss-swing-hit or wars of attrition with hp but involves finding and losing weapons, incapacitating hits, etc. and may eventually force you on the run.[/blockquote]
You are seriously onto something (And LC's 'Combat vs Everything' Thread is ringing....I'll pick up the phone).  Yes, I think there is a definite move from a focus on combat to a focus on conflict as games move onward in their development.  And as games include more possible negative connotations of combat (greater chance of injusry, possible social stigma, permanment injuries, loss of valuable items) and when the rewards of the game are more tied to the outcome (exp directly to skills, exp rewards for clever use of skills in overcoming, plot exp rewards...not damaging treasure with that stupid fireball) than the combat itself, you often find that a better 'story' is being written.  

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Now, it is true that when outside forces contrive to create behaviors that are in opposition to a subject's normal pattern, there is a very strong urge to 'cut loose'.  Our aformentioned organized gamer, when forced in the mundane world to exist in an unorganized enviroment may show a hyperprosexia towards a very organized RPG setting...

I suppose that makes sense.  For most people they accept the "grittyness" of life and are both comfortable with it and see "glossyness" as maybe a bit silly.  Whereas I'm completely the opposite.

Okay, I feel I've gotten enough of an answer for now, so you can debate amongst yourselves if you want but you don't need to reply to my question any more.