Old Wetra Discussion Thread - Disregard.

[Neubert]

Wetra is a world I have been working on for some time now. The first ideas sprang into mind about 5 years ago, but not until last year have I done much about it.
What I need help with, first of all, is the background story of the world itself. I have most of it nailed down, but it has holes and areas I can't explain at the moment. Before I get that set in stone, I don't want to work too hard on all the rest (though I have loads of ideas floating around and they will find their way here at some point I believe).

I will note areas where I have comments with a number like this: (1)  and write a small comment at the end of my post.

Obviously I welcome any and all comments (on any and all parts of the information). Thanks in advance.

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So, what is Wetra?
First you need to know a little of how the world looks when the players are playing in it.
In the middle of the planet, a huge continent called Nospri is situated (an almost round island a little smaller than Australia). Around it, smaller islands has detached themselves from Nospri and driven off.
The creation of the races, as far as the people of Wetra knows, is that each race was put onto/created on one of the outer islands about 2000 years ago and since found each other and Nospri and populated that. On Nospri, several temples with beams of various colors emerging from them are found, but noone knows what they are for or who built them (the following picture shows it the best: Beam of light). All attempts to enter them has been futile.

Background story
This is the real background for Wetra, unknown to all mortals.

Wetra was once a much different world. Several elemental deities (1) were the pantheon that was worshiped and the lay of the land was different.
On Wetra, a powerful mage (2) named Karsus lived. He invented a new spell and being eager to test it, began to channel it's energies. However, something was wrong - the spell started to suck the life force out of every being on the world, mortal as well as immortal and bolstering Karsus with it. Karsus was quickly too powerful for any mortal to defeat, and the deities realized that. They choose to walk the earth in order to stop him.
A massive battle ensued between the deities and Karsus (3), all the while Karsus still became stronger and the deities weaker. Several of the lesser elemental gods were destroyed before the remaining deties finally stopped Karsus. The world was a wasteland however.
Unable to destroy him completely (4), the deities uses the life force that he had accumulated, and the rest of their own, to shaped a new world. A cage for Karsus, with him in the middle (5). They created the island Nospri and put temples on it, each holding the essence of one of the victorious deities. The temples created an invisible "bubble" around Nospri, placed to stop any outside force from interfering with the cage. Lastly, they created guardians (6) to watch over Karsus and repair any wear that the prison might sustain. Time went by, and the guardians did their job. But the guardians were not able to repair themselves or each other and they started slowly, one by one, to break down.

Time moves on, and due to the forces of nature, smaller islands are ripped from Nospri and floats off, far enough to exit the protective "bubble".

New deities notice the world, and see it is without life. They decide to create it, in order to get followers. They soon realize though, that they are unable to populate Nospri (7). The populate the surrounding islands, each with it's own race and leave them to develop and explore.

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I guess that is the gist of it. Hope it made sense.
I have thought about having the new deities find a piece of hair (although that would decompose) or something from Karsus and create the races from that. The reason for that is that I only have 2000 years for all the races in the Monster Manual to come into being - so evolution is too slow, and I would rather not have the deities create all of them (though that *is* a possibility).

Another thing I would like to add is a "reoccurring" event. At first I had in mind that the world would be destroyed in the battle between Karsus and the deities, then remade using the life force of both. New deities would come and eventually (after a set amount of years) a new mage like Karsus would appear and history happening all over again with the new deities fighting a new Karsus. So the world would be remade every "x" years.
Instead, I figured that Karsus could be released from his cage and cast his spell again (8). The elemental deities would have to be released to fight him (9) and the world would start over. This has several problems at the moment though, as it is something I only thought of earlier today. Amongst other things, what would happen to the "new" deities - if they are not replaced every time, they should learn from their mistakes? And so should the elemental deities, now we are at it.

I would like Karsus to be a major player in the setting, though I am not sure how. He is powerful enough to grant spells or corrupt people from a distance, but I would also like to have a setting that feels "normal" (like vanilla D&D) in general (meaning that he wouldn't create rains of fire every other day or anything to that extend).

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My comments:
(1) It is actually not only elemental deities, but that is the best word I have for them.

(2) At first I had decided for him to be a Wizard. With 4th edition in the works, I am not sure if he should be a Wizard, a Warlock or something third.

(3) I am going for Karsus not knowing that he was killing everyone else, and him fighting in self-defense. That also gives a twist if the players ever meet him, as he believes he is innocent and actually did not mean to cause any harm.

(4) Why is one of the things I am not sure of. Currently my explanation is that they were too weak to do so.

(5) Karsus would be the bit that keeps the world together, making it a bad decision for a PC to destroy him (if such a way was found).

(6) I see the guardians as somewhat mechanical or golem-like. Or possibly like "warforged" or the ones that have played Eberron.

(7) This is one of the points that are a bit wobbly and needs working on, as deities can grant spells/powers to mortals on Nospri, but they were unable to create races there.

(8) But why would he do that? Forced into it, as a reward for whoever freed him, payback for being treated the way he did, just plain mean/evil/crazy? But he would also have the knowledge from every single time this has happened.

(9) Or the players somehow stop the endless cycle - though I like the idea about an evil being trapped in the middle of the world, keeping it together.

[Hibou]

The biggest problem I see here is that the world is very focused on one enemy - if that enemy is dealt with, then the ability to keep running games in the setting may quickly die off.

Perhaps there could be some way, however, with Karsus's agreement (or maybe even without), that he could relinquish his power and become part of the world itself instead of a separate entity.

Deities being able to grant spells still seems fine - I think creating multiple races would be a lot more difficult than letting spellcasters have magic to wield. Perhaps they draw magic from his life force in the same way that the world draws the ability to stay together from it.

The recurring event could be good, especially if you've got a short history. It seems like an individual of Karsus's power might best become a major player by being destroyed or otherwise completely removed from the setting, but having a lasting effect through what he has done.

I'll keep watching the thread and try and throw in some ideas more as they come to me. :D

[Xeviat]

I too like the cycle of destruction and renewal. The gods can either be totally new each time, or their power and memory can be tied to their followers; when their followers die and forget, they forget. The Elemental deities could remain, but I suggest having them be personified forces of nature rather than actual beings.

Since it is focused on one big-bad, there is the possibility of the setting ending, but I don't think that's 100% the case for yours. The first group that plays it may eventually break into the temples looking for treasure, and inadvertently release Karsus. As their Epic quest, they can find a way to defeat him for good.

Then what? This is all the world has known, including the deities. The races now have to forge forward, and your players get to be the deciding figures. Maybe the original characters become deities. Either way, the world is now a fresh slate to be carved out organically.

Your ideas are wonderful for a one-shot campaign, but it doesn't have to stop there.

As for some of your points:

7) Deities can't use their power on Nospri, but they can act through their divine servants. This doesn't bother me at all; many fantasies and myths have deities that are unable to act in the real world, forcing them to act through their followers.

8)Karsus shouldn't be a misunderstood character. Perhaps it wasn't his intent to destroy the world, but each time he recasts the spell the power takes over. He forgets the consequences of his actions each time, only remembering that the gods stopped his "noble" quest.

9) I think it would be really heroic for one of the players to sacrifice their self to keep the power sealed. No matter how your players do it in the end, it will be an event that will shape your world from then on. Heck, the new deities could be the last heroes that stopped him in the cycle; That's an idea!

[Neubert]

Thanks for the replies! (By the way, I hope you can follow my chain of thoughts, as I have much of the setting in my mind, so I might leave out some).

Now, first things first.

WickedTroll:
At first my plan was to have someone (a cleric at the time, since I fantasized about having a wizard and cleric fight the party, now it does not matter as much) somehow learn of Karsus' spell and free him, thinking the power could be transferred from Karsus to him (whether it can or not, I didn't decide at the time).
The players would fight him, but be unable to destroy him.
Currently, my plan is either not to have him as an opponent that players would fight, but they actually want to keep him locked up and alive (protect him, I guess you could say).

They might not find out about him in the first campaign that I run, but eventually some group would figure out about him, and then it would be a cool part of the background story for the world - that a powerful being is caged in the middle.

That also means I am not looking for permanent change. I want to run several campaigns in the world (longer and shorter, though the Karsus one would probably one of the longest).



Perhaps they draw magic from his life force in the same way that the world draws the ability to stay together from it.
My plan was to have the new deities not know anything about the temples, old elemental deities or Karsus.
But I actually think it states somewhere that deities get their power from their followers, so it would make sense that if they got power from people on Nospri, then they could also "give" power to people on Nospri.



The recurring event could be good, especially if you've got a short history.
I was shooting for about 2000 years (about twice as long as dragons live, if I am not wrong). I don't want anyone left from the creation, and it fits well with what I might take from the "points of light" setting that Wizards will use. I am not looking for cities every 5 miles.



I'll keep watching the thread and try and throw in some ideas more as they come to me.
Thanks! Much appreciated!




Kap'n Xeviat
I really like the how the deities are dependent upon their followers. So when all the followers die, they forget and start populating the world again.


The Elemental deities could remain, but I suggest having them be personified forces of nature rather than actual beings.
How do you mean? I was planning on the players possibly going into a temple and find out about Karsus by speaking with one of the elemental deities. They would be the only ones of knowledge.


Karsus shouldn't be a misunderstood character. Perhaps it wasn't his intent to destroy the world, but each time he recasts the spell the power takes over. He forgets the consequences of his actions each time, only remembering that the gods stopped his "noble" quest.
I went for Karsus not knowing that he did any damage. He is mad now (as anyone would - being put in an eternal prison, not able to die even!). Mechanically I was going to make him a Lich. So now he attempts to corrupt people into finding and opening the cage.
So a way to end the threat of Karsus might also be to convince him that he did something wrong, that his spell is a failure. Somehow have him accept that he is what fuels the world and get him to stay there.


I think it would be really heroic for one of the players to sacrifice their self to keep the power sealed.
Yes, I have thought about that too. One possibility could be that he/she switches place with Karsus. But that should be left up to the players decision of course, though giving the opportunity isn't bad.



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I have a few more things to mention, that I couldn't really put into any of my replies.

About the temples:
I was thinking of almost a Mayan look for the temples, with a beam going out of the middle of it (the beams are being used to navigate by the people in the world). Close to the temple, the beam would create an anti-magic zone, making it a task for mundane skills and gear to get up to the top (where the entrance is) and open it (which noone has done).
So I also need some way for the players to enter, should they need to do that. But in that case a simple key or a password might do it.

About the Guardians which the elemental gods created:
The ideas about the guardians came from a thread I read at Wizards forum long ago and that I just built upon. It sounded too cool not to incorporate.

My plans for the guardians I mentioned earlier are that they are not all dead (but I was too tired to go into that at the time). Some guardians remain (I have settled for 2 currently). Each have a function - the biggest one stands guard at the cagedoor and the other was supposed to report wear and tear in the prison. There are no guardians to fix those however (and noone to report to), and the guardian sees the people of Wetra and how they are tearing the prison apart by farmign, chopping down trees etc. (this could actually be the way that Karsus is released, if nothing else).

These two would be another player in the world. I could foresee them trying to rid the world of the races (maybe by use of the same spell that Karsus has?) in order to stop the wear and tear. This also means that if all the beings on the world dies, (the guardians would obviously not be affected by the spell, the elemental gods were not that stupid, they just forgot that they should be able to reproduce or repair each other) then the new deities would loose their power (and their memory, if we are running with that).


Other comments:
Currently, the problem I see if the whole history repeats itself (meaning everything except it is the same elemental gods every time) - howcome they don't learn from their mistakes? They could make the guardians better and the islands wouldn't appear, leaving no space to put races (except the sea of course).
And if everything starts over, then the new deities can't just forget. Many many years have to pass between the guardians creation before they break down.
Wow, Karsus must be grumpy after so many years!

But actually, maybe we can figure something out with the guardians doing what the elemental gods did. If the new gods are tied closely to their followers (and the old elemental ones were not), then maybe they would vanish once every follower dies. So the guardians casts the spell, destroying all life and the new deities (but not the elemental ones, as they are no longer "beings" in that way). Then they use the tapped life force to pull the land together again and create new guardians (but howcome they don't learn though? Or can they just not make as magnificent creations as deities?).

The real stopping of the endless cycle would be to stop the guardians from casting the spell (either through diplomacy or force).
That just leaves one problem. How did the new gods create races in the first place, without followers? Maybe from that piece of hair (or something) found from Karsus?



Wow, all that really got my creative juices flowing! Let me know what you think. And thanks again.

[Neubert]

I changed the name of my thread since I noticed someone else already used "world reborn".
How does the new one sound?

[Lmns Crn]

Okay, so as it currently stands, this world seems like a one-trick pony. The upside is that it's a really good trick.

I would be very careful with the way you use Karsus, because the Karsus problem is not only the world's primary gimmick, it's also it's linchpin. If the Karsus problem gets "fixed" by players, you end up removing a huge portion of the world's interest in the process. Unless you're finished with this setting by then (finished using it, not just finished writing it), that's probably a bad thing.

I think Karsus would make a great villain for, say, a Final Fantasy game. For an antagonist for a whole world, maybe not so good. If this were my project, I'd take great care to use Karsus as scenery, as a force of nature, and as a generator for plot devices, but never as a villain or direct antagonist.

I'm a little worried that you may be spending disproportionately huge amounts of time and energy writing "mysteries" that your players and their characters are not meant to know about, instead of writing things that will impact them directly.

A cult of Karsus sounds like a fun idea. Maybe Karsus commands them (or suggests things to them) telepathically, and supplies them with some sort of power. Perhaps they are not even aware of what his ultimate goal is. I can easily see a deceived cult of an insane creature working pretty well here.

I feel like we can only go for a little bit before exhausting most of the material related to Karsus and his imprisonment. What I would most like to see added to this world as it develops are things not necessarily related to Karsus, to flesh out the detail of the world and give it additional facets of interest (i.e., diversification of ideas.)

For example, you have mortals originating on various small islands and moving to a larger one, where they mingle. (Why do they move? Are they curious about the temple lights?) What happens when they meet? Are there wars? Treaties? Slaughters? Diplomacy? Does one group of people subjugate another? Do two form an alliance against a third? Are their sprawling kingdoms with mighty kings (benevolent or corrupt!)? Are there savage wildernesses that trade caravans must navigate at their peril? Are there marvels of science and art?

I guess I want to hear less about Karsus and more about the world that gets built on top of him-- the things players and their characters will more commonly interact with. I suspect that adding these sorts of details will add depth and life to your world that even Karsus, with all his phenomenal power, can not contribute alone.

[Neubert]

You're right Mr. Crayon.

I see that only posting one small section of my world has made it seem like a one-trick pony. That is not what I want it to become.
What I would like is for Karsus to become part of the background story for the setting (as if it was known to the players from the start). But instead of just letting the players know this through a paragraph before the game commences, I'd like to have their party discover it (and possibly save the world from starting all over again). After the discovery, this would become part of the campaign settings background, but it would remain much clearer in the minds of the players, and I would have a good legend/myth to be told throughout taverns without making it up myself.

This obviously means that all the details and loose ends must be worked out for when the players discover and learn of this.


I already have a map of Nospri, and a lot more thoughts on Wetra (many are not fully fleshed out). I will begin to post this now, after reading your reply. My reasoning for writing only the "creation myth" is because I currently work very strictly outside-in (though it will be my folly) and want to base other decisions upon that (and to do that I need it set in stone).
Of course, I also find things I think would be cool (like a small island with two cities on, each from a different kingdom, locked in battle over the isle) and then fit it into the world.

[Neubert]

By the way.. Any ideas about how to go about displaying a whole setting? I have seen some people have a separate discussion thread for their setting, and another to show it in.

[Lmns Crn]

Sometimes the not-fully-fleshed-out ideas are the best things to post. :yumm:

As for getting detail set in stone,

How did the new gods create races in the first place, without followers? Maybe from that piece of hair (or something) found from Karsus?

It looks like if there's one thing this world has in abundance, it's life force energy. Maybe the gods made the mortals out of bits of Karsus' accumulated life energy, the same way they made the whole world around him out of life energy?

Maybe there's so much life energy that it broke off and turned into mortals of its own accord, and the gods are just as surprised about it as anybody? Maybe the gods are worried that the mortals they didn't create might somehow undo the bindings on Karsus' prison?

Edit: another question - Is this a spherical planet? A continent (and peripheral islands) in an endless, flat sea? You place so much emphasis on Nospri, does the shape of the world even matter?

[Neubert]

I was thinking of going in the direction of "in the struggle between Karsus and the elemental gods, a single hair (or something) dropped from his head and was caught by the wind."

"The new gods come and found a world full of forests and plains, but without life.
A single strand of hair caught their eye, and they leaned down to pick it up. But they started to argue amongst themselves of who should have it and in the ensuing struggle it was dropped and fell from the sky. As it touched the ground, a flash of light, like an explosion was seen, and creatures of any kind sprang to life where the hair had landed."
The only problem with the above is that I would like for all races to have their own island which they call home - which means I would like to have each race created on a separate island (obviously these wouldn't be fleshed out unless they are very much in focus, like the player races, or needed.
I suppose I could change the text above to something like:
"The gods felt much power in the single hair, and used it's power to create many creatures of various form."

[Lmns Crn]

The nice thing about that idea is that it lets you really play with the nature of divinity. What is a god, anyway? It almost seems like Karsus is the only real god around (or perhaps, the only major god), and these other so-called deities are just lesser creatures exploiting a little piece of a being more powerful than themselves. It reminds me of the Sorceror's Apprentice, where Karsus is the wizard who is away, and the gods are Mickey Mouse playing around with the magic hat. (Does this mean the mortals are the walking brooms?)

The thing I'm still unclear on is why the races all left their native islands and went to Nospri, especially if (as it seems) they abandoned their ancestral homes to do so. And if they didn't (i.e., if there are still nations and settlements on those homeland islands), why shouldn't those be detailed and fleshed out as well?

[Neubert]

I like your chain of thoughts. I hadn't thought about that.


Right, I missed that part. There are still nations and settlements on the islands, but the islands individually are not able to support a huge population.
I am thinking of Nospri a bit like America. For some (the adventurous and possibly a bit more tolerant of other races) it was the land that had it all.
I am also thinking of putting most of my adventures there. Nospri has been settled for more than 1600 years and that is where I would run my games, mainly. The islands would be backdrop, but be used for missions/quests once in a while.

Of course, games can be run on an (or several) islands as well. I guess I was somewhat hasty in saying it wouldn't be fleshed out - maybe I should have said that it is not my primary focus.


This is also the second part of the background for the world. Right now is up till how the races were created. Next bit is up to where the world is today, when the players would start the game.