Breakoff of "Are Abilities Necessary" - "Statless" 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons

[Moniker]

Here's how I could easily see a lot of the system broken out, reordered and kept familiar. Using 4e as the general design template and hybridizing Lath's Generic Classes: http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?50153

Base Mechanic:
Master +3
Expert +2
Common +1

Note - Stats do not exist under this system. Your base mechanic determines how well you can do something.

Base HP for all classes
10 times HP type (Master, Expert, Common)
HP gained per level equals either 3, 2 or 1 + 1/2 level

Defenses
10 + 1/2 level + Master, Expert or Common bonus

Powers:
Grouped entirely together. Powers have no feat cost at 1st level from your Expert suit, and cost + 1 feat for any you are Expert suit or +2 feats for Common suit. Powers gained follows the table listed on page 29 of the 4E PHB. This allows flexiblity at the cost of feat slots over time, resulting in diminishing bonuses to the d20 if you choose to learn "cross-class" powers.

New Core Classes
Warrior (generic fighting-type class)
(choose Warlord, Paladin or Fighter Class features at 1st level)
Master Hit Points
Master Heavy Armor, Expert Light Armor
Master Fortitude, Expert Reflex, Common Will
Master Military Weapons, Expert Simple Weapons, Common Improvised Weapons
Master Exploits, Common Prayers, Common Spells
Choose Intimidation, Athletics or Diplomacy as a free Trained skill. Choose 3 more Trained skills from the Warlord, Paladin or Fighter skill list.


Adept (generic caster type)
(choose Warlock, Wizard or Cleric class features at 1st level)
Common Hit Points
Common Light Armor, Common Heavy Armor
Master Will, Expert Reflex, Common Fortitude
Master Improvised Weapons, Expert Simple Weapons, Common Military Weapons
Master Spells, Master Prayers, Common Exploits
Choose Religion, History or Arcana for a trained skill. Choose 4 more Trained skills from the Warlock, Wizard or Cleric list

Expert (generic skirmisher type/"skillmonkey")
(choose Rogue or Ranger class features at 1st level)
Expert Hit Points
Master Light Armor, Common Heavy Armor
Master Reflex, Expert Will, Common Fortitude
Master Simple Weapons, Expert Military Weapons, Common Improvised Weapons
Master Exploits, Expert Prayers, Common Spells
Choose Nature, Dungeoneering or Thievery for a free Trained Skill. Choose 5 more Trained skills from the Rogue or Ranger class list

Powers
Each power is currently defined by your ability versus a specific defense. With this in mind, here's the conversion process:

Str/Con = Fortitude
Dex/Int = Reflex
Wis/Cha = Will

An example power:
Strengthen the Faithful Cleric Attack 7
You utter a solemn prayer as you bring your weapon down upon
your foe, invoking the power of your deity to physically bolster
you and nearby allies.
Encounter ¦ Divine, Healing,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you and each
ally adjacent to the target can spend a healing surge. Add
your Charisma modifier to the hit points regained.

modified under statless system:

Strengthen the Faithful Cleric Attack 7
You utter a solemn prayer as you bring your weapon down upon
your foe, invoking the power of your deity to physically bolster
you and nearby allies.
Encounter ¦ Divine, Healing,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Fort vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Fort damage, and you and each
ally adjacent to the target can spend a healing surge. Add
your Will to the hit points regained.


edit - fixed and updated to common parlance of the 4E system (Master, Expert and Common)

[Superfluous Crow]

I'm not sure i get this; if you have removed stats, why are there references to "consitution score" under HP?
Think it would help for me to see an example of this in action.

[Xeviat]

And I believe you're avoiding one of 4E's strengths; smaller differences in HP. If you have the consitution modifier playing into effect, you'll get 3E all over again.

But am I to assume those strong, moderate, and weak scores are scores you choose for your ability scores?

[Moniker]

Fixed the Constitution modifier.

And yes, Kap'n - you have three basic "stats" Reflex, Will and Fortitude which feed into your Defenses.

Armor Class I am still struggling with, due in that I really don't like the idea of AC whatsoever. Armor as Damage Resistance would work, but why use DR to overcomplicate the math when you can just use your Armor Class rating as a bonus to Hit Points? Still mulling over this one...

edit - changed Strong, Average and Weak to Master, Expert and Common to reflect parlance of the 4E Skill system. Added skill list, along with free Trained skills

Powers
Each power is currently defined by your ability versus a specific defense. With this in mind, here's the conversion process:

Str/Con = Fortitude
Dex/Int = Reflex
Wis/Cha = Will

An example power:
Strengthen the Faithful Cleric Attack 7
You utter a solemn prayer as you bring your weapon down upon
your foe, invoking the power of your deity to physically bolster
you and nearby allies.
Encounter ¦ Divine, Healing,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you and each
ally adjacent to the target can spend a healing surge. Add
your Charisma modifier to the hit points regained.

modified under statless system:

Strengthen the Faithful Cleric Attack 7
You utter a solemn prayer as you bring your weapon down upon
your foe, invoking the power of your deity to physically bolster
you and nearby allies.
Encounter ¦ Divine, Healing,Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Fort vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Fort damage, and you and each
ally adjacent to the target can spend a healing surge. Add
your Will to the hit points regained.

[Moniker]

I'm not sure i get this; if you have removed stats, why are there references to "consitution score" under HP?
Think it would help for me to see an example of this in action.

My bad! Fixed. Here is a rough example of a character sheet -

Arnulf the Wary
Level 8 Warrior
Master Fortitude +7 (1/2 level + 3) Defense: 17 (without additional feat bonuses)
Expert Reflex +6 (1/2 level + 2) Defense: 16 (without additional feat bonuses)
Common Will +5 (1/2 level + 1) Defense: 15 (without additional feat bonuses)
Hit Points: 37 (base 30 plus 1/2 level + 3)
Trained Skills: Intimidation +10, Heal +10, Endurance +12, Athletics +12

Equipment
Master Heavy Armor +7 Defense: 25 (when wearing plate)
------OR------
Expert Light Armor +6 Defense: 18 (when wearing leather)

[Superfluous Crow]

Looks fine. But this doesn't so much remove ability scores as group them together?

[Moniker]

Looks fine. But this doesn't so much remove ability scores as group them together?

Correct; it's simplification of the number of possible modifiers to any given situation by streamlining the current mechanics. "Statless" is really a misnomer on my part, insomuchas a redefinition of the system by grouping common ability scores together to eliminate the sheer amount of number crunching that bogs down character creation and in-game play.

edit - so, Str/Con = Fort, Int/Dex = Ref, Wis/Cha = Will
No more dump stats whatsoever (such as Intelligence in 4e, or Charisma in 3E/2E/1E)

[Superfluous Crow]

So i take it this is meant for slightly crunchy games? Otherwise the lack of customization options might be a bit enervating.

[Moniker]

Actually, there is a greater level of customization for Power variety by classes but removes the implication of bad stat placement and sense of dread when players have to "plot out" 30 levels ahead during character creation.

Feats would have to be recategorized entirely, much as Skills have. A given would be that if you're a Warrior, you can only choose Feats that are limited to Warlord, Fighter or Paladin classes. However, that opens up a broad avenue for customization, especially when coupled with Power selection. You can almost entirely drop the multiclass/dual-class/"dipping" multiclass options from 4E all together under this model while still having a sense of balance.

Since I use "PC-type" foes in my homebrewed game, this would make for a DM nightmare to customize each ally or foe, but would make for a less predictable usage of powers from foes. I am sure there is a more elegant way to create NPCs, but I haven't really had a lot of time to think about it. We pretty much dumped these rules as my group continued to playtest 4e last year.

[Superfluous Crow]

Did you include class features in any way? can't find them in your rules.

[Moniker]

Did you include class features in any way? can't find them in your rules.

Features are listed right under the bracketed description. Basically, you choose one Fighter, Paladin or Warlord feature set at 1st level as a Warrior, Warlock, Wizard or Cleric feature set as a Adept or one Rogue or Ranger feature set as an Expert.

One other thing to note - there isn't a necessity to have Armor or Weapon proficiencies. Since they're tied to the Master, Expert and Common usage rules, it allows flexibility while eliminating whether you want to pick up feats to use weapons/armor. The tradeoff is that in the feats you didn't have to spend to use specific armor or weapons are tied directly to the Feat cost for Powers you're not a Master in.

[Moniker]

Made a few necessary changes. Probably not going to muck with this any further without actually doing a postfix to the entire 4E PDF. But here's an example of a Warrior that can function as a Fighter, Paladin or Warlord -


WARRIOR
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Defender
Power Source: Master Exploits, Master Prayers, Common Spells
Key Abilities: Master Fortitude, Expert Reflex, Common Will
Armor Proficiencies: Master Heavy Armor, Expert Light Armor
Weapon Proficiencies: Master Military Weapons, Expert Simple Weapons, Common Improvised Weapons
Hit Points at 1st Level: 30
Hit Points per Level Gained: 3 + 1/2 level
Healing Surges per Day: 12 + 1/2 level
Trained Skills: Choose Athletics, Diplomacy or Religion as a free Trained skill. Choose 3 more Trained skills from the Class Skill list.
Class Skills: Athletics (Fort), Diplomacy (Will), Endurance (Fort), Heal (Will), History (Ref), Insight (Will), Intimidate (Will), Religion (Ref), Streetwise (Will)
Class Features: Choose one of the following feature suits at 1st level -
Fighter (Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, Fighter Weapon Talent)
Paladin (Channel Divinity, Divine Challenge, lay on hands, holy symbol impliment)
Warlord (Combat Leader, Commanding presence, inspiring word)

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Lots of neat work. But this kind of idea always makes me wonder at what point you are better off just building a new system and not calling it D&D.

The strengths of D&D, especially 4e, are its accessibility, simplicity, and the fact that most players are familiar with it. Adding a bunch of house rules can limit or eliminate all those strengths, without necessarily avoiding the inherent weaknesses in the system (and all systems have weaknesses; no system is perfect for all play style or all campaigns--I like some variety, to be honest).