Charisma

[Nomadic]

A special magnetic charm or appeal. Merriam Webster gives us this definition for Charisma. I think the best I have ever seen it summed up as was "Influence". People notice when a charismatic person steps through the door. The problem here is that influence isn't an inborn ability. You might have a certain talent for it, but any person can be influential with the right knowledge. At first I just put it down to looks. I mean after all a good looking person is more likely to be charismatic. It kind of hit me though, that even an ugly person can be charismatic if they tailor their clothing and speech right. In fact an ugly person can be even more charismatic if they use their ugliness to an advantage.

For example. Which is more likely to influence the crowd to fight for them? A handsome young lad in a page outfit who has never seen any sort of action. Or a bulky man holding a sword and shield, his face covered in the scars and marks of war, giving him a startling appearance? Furthermore why should charisma work the same for everyone. Every person has a different idea as to what is good looking and what is influential for them.

Anyhow getting down to the main point here. I want to better portray charisma since it has little to do with your inborn looks and more to do with how you use your knowledge to influence others. So what I need now is the various things that increase your influence. I can think of a few. Fame and Overall Appearance to name two. I am just not totally sure about all the factors involved.

I do know that what is charismatic to a human priest won't be charismatic for a goblin warrior. So it is likely that instead of a charisma score you would have a charisma chart (note that I am talking from a classless standpoint without any spells based off a cha score) with a couple likes and dislikes. A smart person might pick up on this and use it to his advantage when swaying the people. So any thoughts?

[Nomadic]

Anyhow, expounding on the charisma chart idea I have come up with a very rough concept.

Every NPC that the characters interact with in a way that brings their ability to influence into the equation gets a charisma chart. This could be a pre-designed chart for major NPCs (or all of them if you really want to do that). It could also be randomly rolled or taken from a template based on who they are, or what they do, or anything else that could be grouped together. The chart looks like this:

Heavy Approval: 1 item
Approval: 2 items
Disapproval: 2 items
Heavy Disapproval: 1 item

Each side gets a major item (which gives a bonus/penalty) and two minor items (which give smaller bonuses/penalties). This enables a player to play their charisma how they want and let it mesh with the character idea they have. It also lets the DM drop hints so that insightful players can pick up on clues which might help them in negotiations.

[Xeviat]

Charisma is difficult to quantify, especially when you start from a 3E or earlier mindset. In 3E, charisma only applied to its skills. Thus, charisma gave you natural nack, but it wasn't anything that training couldn't compensate for. Even still, in 4E, taking skill training in, say, Diplomacy makes you as diplomatic as an untrained person with a 20 Charisma!

Now, in 4E at least Charisma can apply to Will Defense, but even still the vast majority of it can be trained up through other sources.

There's something to be said about Charisma. Yes, people can learn to make it better, but people can also lift weights, run, or do brain teasers to boost their other ability scores. This is where we run into problems with a system with (relatively) fixed ability scores. Other systems allow scores to be boosted along with skills.

If you want to expand upon charisma, I would recommend looking at the current ways Charisma can influence people: Diplomacy and Intimidate (and to a lesser extent, Bluff). Some races or people could be more or less prone to Diplomacy (+2/-2 with Diplomacy against them), while others could be more or less prone to Intimidate (+2/-2). That's the normal ad hoc circumstance modifier, so I'd stick with it.

[Nomadic]

Yes it is something that is difficult to quantify. Because of this there is all kinds of problems with it. And yet it seems almost necessary for anything that isn't just hack and slash.

What I want to do is drop charisma as a score since it is something that I feel is better played as fluff. A race that is resistant to intimidation via threat of personal life might be much less resistant to it vs threat of family life. Someone who can be swayed by one form of diplomacy might be offended by another form.

What I wonder though is if a way can be found to make this work. Your mention of +2/-2 as a baseline makes good sense though so I think I will stick to that. Perhaps something of high approval or disapproval merits a +2/-2 while the minor ones are a +1/-1. Now when you use a social skill you play it out and can get bonuses (up to a +4 as it is now) by picking up and using hints on the person's personality. If you are inept or lazy perhaps you can just roll it without the bonuses (1d20+skill instead of 1d20+skill+rp). This almost seems too close to what it is now. I might have to think it over a bit.

[LordVreeg]

you can drop it as an attribute in some game systems, especially combat-oriented ones.  In Guildschool, it is a critical attribute.  We use a clasless skill-based system for a heavy social interaction game [note=Nomadic] I know you know this, but I am writing to one and all, despite this thread being one of yours, you strapping Scarlet Pilum...[/note]  Since there are a ton of socially biased skills, charisma is heavily utilized, perhaps the most heavily utilized attribute in Guildschool.

Charisma is seen as a measure comprising Strength of Personality, Innate Social understanding/fluency, and Charm.  It is the ability to be comfortable in any atmosphere, to understand how one's actions will be perceived, and to be able to stand out from the crowd when desired.  

We have a social reaction CC that is rolled for whenever a person meets someone new or someone unremembered.  Charsma and basic social skills detemine the CC roll.  The amount made or missed by determines the response.  [note=Reactions]I have to admit two of the most recent fun Igbarian Moments were when people fumbled on a Social Reaction CC.
George:"What do you MEAN you don't recognize us???"  Scarlet Pilum Newbie Guard : "I don't know who you think you are, but you certainly think you are important, and that seems enough a reason to make you wait as any."[/note]

Fun skills with heavy Charisma components in the attribute XP mods include thes examples:[note=Attribute component] This deals with how the attributes affect the experience modifiers of these skills.  Very few of these skills are only affected by charisma, but as you can see, many skills are affected by charsima.[/note]
Basic Actor,
Imitate, Project voice, pretend, Stagecraft, Play knowledge
Basic Bueurocrat,
delegate, organize
Basic Merchant,
Haggling, Pricing, Barter, Salesperson
Public Speaking
Basic Teaching,
Teach spell, teach combat, teach esoteric
Basic Hospitality
Bartender, lodger, crowd control
Aura of Healing,
Lay on Hands, Contagion-Antocontagion,
Affect Others,
Confuse, distract, Attract, Charm
Music Performance,
Basic Bard,
Battlebard, Arcanic Bard, VestedBard, hum, Natures Bard,skill bard
Basic Nature,
An charm, An Train, Fauna, animal empathy
Instill Dread (subskill of track)
Conversion, Mass Conversion
Affect undead, Ceremony, Create Undead, Sanctify-Corrupt
Basic Social,
Social Dynamic, Friendship, Contact, Barrister, Avoid Contact,
Basic Carnal,
Seduction,control
Basic Leader,
Organize, exhort, Fight to Oblivion, Chainof Coomand, Great Order
Courtly Manners
Mentalist SPell Points, Nectromantic Spell Points, Spirit Spell Points, Animist Spell Points
Basic Torture,
Terror, Shadow of the Torturer.

[Nomadic]

Hmm that is a good point actually. I am not fully dropping charisma, but it might be good to keep some type of base. Celtricia uses the social CC to represent your innate skill. Probably a good idea to have that sort of representation.

A better approach might be something I saw somewhere else (ars ludi maybe). Basically you can simply let players roll play if they want to. However you can also let them roleplay for bonuses (and for fun if they are that type of person). For this we can keep that chart since it helps us figure out what type of roleplaying will help or hurt the player.

On that note, has anybody ever used such a system? Giving NPCs likes and dislikes that can be effected by what a player does and says.