Low Magic PC versus Normal to High Magic NPCs and BBEG

[Sleepy Dwarf]

Greetings everyone,

I am currently creating a campaign for a group I play AD&D 3.5 with, that involves the players having little in the way of magic and magical items available to them.  However, the primary BBEG and his minions all have a lot of magic available to them and a reasonable amount of magical items as well.

Whilst this does sound extremely unfair and biased against the PCs, I do have a couple of ideas on ways of making it more even. Unfortunately, the ideas I have dont quite go far enough in that regards. The reason the PCs are low magic is primarily because the gods of the world have all been either imprisioned or killed in a massive diety war, the BBEG is actually the Avatar of the only remaining deity that has any influence in the world so he naturally has a high amount of magic and so do all of his top level minions.

It is possible for the PCs to free the imprisioned deities and through them gain a reasonable increase in the amount of magic available to them.  Also, through a natural trait, 1 of the PC will have the natural ability to absorb magic used against them and then release said magic at a time of their chosing.  So if one of the low minions hits the group with a fireball, this PC may be able to absorb the fireball spell (so it causes no damage to anyone in the group) and then release the fireball later on at a better time, such as in the middle of the fight with the BBEG.

The help I need though, is that I am running out of ideas on ways of helping the PCs be able to fight and survive with little magic.  But it needs to be in such a way that if they are able to free all of the imprisioned deities, and gain full access to normal amounts of magic through these deities, that they dont end up overly powerful.  Hope that makes sense  :D

Thanks in advance for any assistance offered.

Sleepy Dwarf

[Nomadic]

I am guessing that this is going to be a somewhat high level fight (in which case yes 3.5e brawlers vs 3.5e casters is going to be death for the brawlers). You are going to have to something and there are things that can be employed (artifacts, anti-magic fields, etc) but barring magical cheese this could prove to be a difficult task.

Before we get in too deep could you give some more in depth background on the campaign. It is easier to put forth ideas when we know what all is going on.

[Acrimone]

My first thought is: fudge dice rolls.  It's what I do.

My second thought is: if the bad guy's minions have magic items, and they defeat the minions... don't the players more or less get possession of the magic items by default?

Now, you might say "but they are the items of an avatar god and cannot be used against him or his."  But let's say they aren't all divinely powered.  Let's say some of them are just plain old-skool magic items that the avatar was saving for a rainy day.  This mechanic would allow you to slowly lak magic items of whatever power level you wanted to your characters.  If you don't want them to be able to use an item... well, it was powered by the avatar's magic.  If you DO want them to be able to use it, say it's something the avatar picked up along the way.  From the ancient days or whatever.

My third thought is: Give them whatever they need, and have the release of the deities have some sort of cancelling effect.  Make sure this is telegraphed to the players though, so it doesn't catch them by surprise.  Maybe have them come across a legend that said the LAST time a bunch of gods was released from captivity, that magnificent citadel of arcane might lost all of its enchantment and collapsed into the pile of mundane rubble that now sits near the town.

Slip a few of those stories in and you should be fine cuting their magic items down to a reasonable level when the gods are freed.

[Stargate525]

Unless you're more than willing to kill them, this will turn on you very, very quickly. The problem with having antagonists with a leg up on the rest of the world is that, when they are inevitably defeated, the PCs now have that leg, as well as several arms, throats, and various other body parts bedecked in the equipment that was trying to kill them. Hell, the minions, if they've got magic, will be enough of a balancing factor; as they kill higher and higher minions, their items will increase in power.

Unless you're talking about straight casting, not just items...

[Sleepy Dwarf]

More campaign / world info:
The world has been losing magics for quite some time, as in the availablility of magic has been declining progressively for the past 100 years or so, but most of the lose of magic has occured in the past 2-3 years.  The PCs have been sent out by the elders of the church in their town on a simple boring little job (the PCs start out as level 1-2).

As a part of their travels in completing the boring little job, they may find out about a strange army operating in the lands far to the south of they land they are in, the army itself does not come close to thir land at all.  The army is lead by a high cleric of an unknown deity (the BBEG) and they are trying to recreate soemthing (still working that part out).  If the PCs go to the capital city and speak to the right people there (they should be about level 5-7 by this stage) they will find out that it is not just the local priests and magic users, but magic users from all over the known world, that are unable to perform magc as they once did.  This however does not seem to be true for the clerics and mages of the army to the south how it is reported are using magic as if they have an unlimited supply.  Of course, if the PCs complete the boring job and just head back to their home town and stay well away from the lands to the south, then none of this really matters :D

The BBEG it turns out is an ancient deity that once ruled over a long lost and nearly forgotten land and people.  He is trying to return this land and its people to the world by force.  As a part of his plans, he has killed off nearly every other deity.  Those that were not killed have been imprisioned and some how stripped of their powers.  this has result in all forms of divine, arcane and wild magic disappearing from the world.  All magic comes from a deity of some sort, divine naturally comes to the clerics form the deities themselves, the gods of nature gave to the world the wild magics and the more chaotic gods gave the world the arcane magics (this part will probably be adjusted later).  

Since magic has been declining over the past 100 years, the number of magical items available has also declined (as people have been hording them or they have been used up or destroyed over time) along with the ability to cast spells of any kind.

@ Nomadic:
Yep, its a high level fight when they finally get to the BBEG especially as I have created him as a level 17 Cleric/Necro.  The PCs will be predominately brawlers, which means that yep, they are in deep trouble against a high powered and fully functional magic user.  Hence I need to find some ways of evening it up without giving them too much advantage when/if they free the imprisioned deities.

@ Acrimone:
Ok, so I really needed coffee earlier, I didnt even think on the point you made "if the bad guy's minions have magic items, and they defeat the minions... don't the players more or less get possession of the magic items by default?"

Yep, they get the items.  Although I will defiantely have to use your idea for removing the excess items if they free the deities, especially as the myths surrounding what the BBEG is trying to do would work in nicely with the idea that once the deities are freed and magic flows back into the world that a lot of the existing items may stop working.

@ SG:

Of course I am more than willing to kill the characters (and at times the players as well).  Since i have been reminded that if they kill a minion that has items, then the players now get said items to use as well, i think hte biggest problem will be more in the casting area than the items.  Especially as I can make sure they get enough items to compensate them along the way.


Thanks to all of you for your quick answers and thoughts on this.  Hopefully I will be able to get this campaign to a point I can post it and get some feedback on it soon (hopefully within the next month roughly)

Sleepy Dwarf

[Ra-Tiel]

Hi.

Have you considered using alternative supplements for the PCs? Like the Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, or Incarnum? All of these offer the option to gain some of the system's abilities by using feats.

Perhaps you could give them more feats (one every second level), and let them find some old masters or tomes teaching/describing pre-god war era fighting styles (ToB), have them come in one-time contact with an artifact of one of the imprisoned deities that uses its last bits of power to infuse their souls themselves with magic (incarnum), or let them make contact with a powerful extra-planar entity (demon lord, epic aberration, etc) and strike a deal for his support (BoM).

[Pellanor]

Of course I am more than willing to kill the characters (and at times the players as well).

Note to self: never play with Sleepy Dwarf, as he may kill me in my sleep...


Just because magic items are Rare, doesn't mean they're nonexistent. Especially if peple have been hording them for the last 100 years, it should be possible to find hidden caches of items, that have been forgotten by the world at large. Perhaps the original owners died.

Another thought. You said this deity used to rule over some people. Why did he lose his rule? Perhaps there were some artifacts that were specifically designed to be used against him in order to throw down his rule. If the PCs get wind of these not only does it give them the extra power they may need, but it also provides the ground for a great adventure.

Or perhaps the PCs are able to track down one of the imprisoned gods, and while they are unable to free him the god is able to provide them with some gearmo. Perhaps even in the form of long lost knowledge of where the stuff I mentioned above may be.

[LordVreeg]

First off, as far as game ideas, I love this one.  Really, really love the possibilities.

There are a number of options you have, especially from a storytelling modality.  Many of the possibilities make for a great story.

First, I need to ask about the source of non-divine magic.  It sounds like divine and non-divine both have a deilogical origin. I need to know if that is the case.  I need to get my cosmology down pat first. Also, how long a game are you talking, here?  

I also need to know the amount of other gods/demigods we are talking about, and what they represetnt.  This has a lot to with how you set up the adventures.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Most of the solutions offered seem pretty sufficient to me, assuming you're willing to scale the level/power of the BBEG to provide an appropriate challenge based on wherever the PCs are at that point. If his magic gives him an edge, make his level closer to that of the PCs.

Also, can the PCs research what types of magic he likes to use and prepare for it? If they know he loves a particular tactic, they may be smart enough to prepare a magical or mundane what to counter it.

[sparkletwist]

The problem with having antagonists with a leg up on the rest of the world is that, when they are inevitably defeated, the PCs now have that leg, as well as several arms, throats, and various other body parts bedecked in the equipment that was trying to kill them.

Unless of course that's all part of the story and the fun!
I could see it working that way, too... particularly if the advanced equipment got partially damaged/discharged/whatever during the fight, and the PCs then have to make do with this ecletic mix of interesting, advanced, and usually half-broken artifacts they keep finding.  :)

(Sounds kind of like the Stargate serieses[eses], after reading your name and thinking about it a bit...)

[Sleepy Dwarf]

Sorry its taken me awhile to respond, but thanks everyone for the thoughts and ideas on this, and of course for the recent late nights and early mornings spent rewriting parts of the campaign and/or world descriptions that they have caused me  :cry:

Just one last little request, anyone know a good wiki site I can post everything to, preferably one that allows visitors to post comments without logging in, but no-one can edit anything without logging in of course?  That way, I can post everything I have so far and get some more feedback on how it looks and how it is going.  

Thanks.

Sleepy Dwarf

[Pellanor]

Well there is The CBG Wiki, though I'm not sure if guests can post comments.

[Sleepy Dwarf]

I looked at the CBG Wiki, but couldnt work out how to create a new wiki page on it (yes I did go to the page creation information page, but that just confused me more) although admittedly, I am really new to the whole wiki idea.  Will have another look at it later today when I have some more spare time.

Thanks.