Race/Nation interaction

[Wensleydale]

I've been inspired again. Not sure what by, mind you (probably at least a bit of Harry Potter), but my mind has, in some twisted fashion, assembled a kind of setting where I can exercise both my love of twisted corrupt politics and modern themes and my whimsies of fantasy. I am talking, dear friends, of a world not unlike our own - but a world inhabited and ruled by certain creatures and forces alien to us except where found in games, fiction, and legend.

 At present, I have some vague ideas of how this is going to work. Magic will be very... scientific, formulaic, and difficult - not necessarily rare, but unlikely to make an immense impact on things such as technology, where other natural forces - such as electricity, steam, and gunpowder - are far more easy to utilise.

However, what I'm trying to deal with now is realistic attitudes to other species. Whilst there will be ethnic conflicts involved in this as well, species (or as we tend to call it in the fantasy trade, 'race') will be the main thing going on here. I'm thinking that there will be different attitudes to other species in different places, and just so my brain doesn't have to step into TOO many different shoes, I think the MAJORITY of nations will be human-dominated, or at least human-ruled - which should provide for some interesting repression of creatures such as goblins, as we humans tend to be very xenophobic creatures when left to our own devices.

What I really want to ask is, how do 'race' (species) and nation interact in your settings? Are many nations particularly mixed? Are different species treated differently? In human terms, different ethnic/religious groups under a ruler of a separate ethnic/religious group are often bound by different rules to the leading group (Dhimmi status in certain islamic states, for example, or the monetary value of swedes in Denmark in the middle ages). At the moment, I'm tending towards segregation. So what do YOU think?

[Moniker]

In my setting, ethnicity is treated as national identity. Even though most of the "civilized" folk share the same faith (although in different iterations), they bicker and quarrel over their race's right to land and equality.There are some parts of the world (such as Goth Moran) where race dictates your station in life (e.g. the Gothric hate the Walstanians, even though they come from the same ancient tribes. They both equally hate the Andals, and the Andals themselves divide themselves into two social classes by ethnicity. That's not even accounting for the immgrant races, such as the Zentish, the Haradeen, the Stygians...)

Since we don't really use demihuman races as player characters, much less as a dominating/nation-building peoples, I've built some pretty specific national identities into the "human" ethnicities by region. This inextricibly leads to justification behind war, economics and internal/external strife based purely on where you hail from, where you're standing and what you do for a living. Racism is a major trope of my setting.

[Nomadic]

In Karros there are two species but they are both branches of humanity. Between the two there is a bit of mutual mistrust. The Teram (children of earth; what you would call "normal" humans) in the ancient past thrived alongside the Maeri (children of water). The Teram though were able to make use of the metals and resources of the land while such things were scarce in the sea. For this reason the Teram ended up conquering and destroying much of the Maeri civilization.

The true Maeri still exist as small settlements scattered around the world. However, much of their kind have integrated with the Teram. Some have kept true to their bloodline, helped along by the mistrust between each other. Meanwhile others have integrated fully and there are plenty of Teram with Maeri blood in them.

Meanwhile, Karros is split up into many different city states, few of which are closer than 500 miles to one and other. So the cultures are vastly different as you travel about. It has spawned all kinds of mixed societies. This integrates with the Maeri and Teram to create alot of opportunities for cultural conflict. Segregation is indeed one such thing to be found. There is also genocide and other more violent conflicts. Its typical of us humans though, we are like you said distrustful of anything we don't understand.

On a similar note, I think you could actually get something out of RHJunior's Tales of the Questor. It shows an excellent integration of magic and science (in fact portraying magic as a science). There are also plenty of instances of mistrust between castes and species (397 and onwards is actually good for the reaction between two species who haven't interacted in many long years). And above all its just enjoyable to read.

[Polycarp]

What I really want to ask is, how do 'race' (species) and nation interact in your settings? Are many nations particularly mixed? Are different species treated differently? In human terms, different ethnic/religious groups under a ruler of a separate ethnic/religious group are often bound by different rules to the leading group (Dhimmi status in certain islamic states, for example, or the monetary value of swedes in Denmark in the middle ages). At the moment, I'm tending towards segregation. So what do YOU think?

I think a great deal of this depends on the races you are using.

In a "traditional" D&D setting you have PC races that are really "races" rather than "species."  The standard Human/Elf/Dwarf/etc. lineup can (for the most part) interbreed, and all of them share virtually the same physical makeup, with differences that range from the vanishingly superficial to the very minor.  I'm not talking about actual mechanics, here, but looks and thought - sure, a dwarf is more "dour" than a human, and an elf has "pointier ears," but they are essentially "Star Trek Aliens" - guys who, while ostensibly alien, are really just you with different forehead makeup and a few novelty customs to demonstrate how different they are.

That sounds like a criticism but it's really not.  Players are, as a rule, humans themselves, and the farther a race is from the human norm the harder it is to roleplay and understand as a character.  There is a basic revulsion a human experiences when an illithid is described that he does not experience when you describe a dwarf.  Substantial differences from the human type help indicate "monstrousness," both to the player and to the character, who likely has the same biases against "monsters" that the player would.

If everyone is recognizably human - or, as D&D used to describe them, "humanoid" - then their relationships with each other, and consequently their relationships with others in their own race, are going to be very different from a world in which the races are truly species, with gross physical, linguistic, biological, and cultural chasms between them.

In my current campaign world, the latter is the norm.  One "race" isn't even an animal, but a fungus.  All the PC races recognize each other as sentient creatures possessing morality and rationality, but creatures is the operative term - the other races are not their peers, but intelligent monsters, whose presence is met with no small degree of suspicion, and in some cases hostility.

I can't take this too far, because in the end what every GM needs is a way to make "interracial PC parties," and if the world is so xenophobic that this is impossible, you have a setting that isn't tenable.  The relative gulf between the races, however, has minimalized nationalism and intra-species conflict in my setting.  It certainly exists, but the presence of real "monsters" makes lines between members of the same species less important - "who cares about his skin color, that's a talking fungus over there!"

It's hard to say how realistic this is.  The only time in earth's history that stands out as an example of "monstrous neighbors" is when our ancestors co-existed with Neanderthals, and I believe opinions on how different we were from them vary considerably.  In any case, we'll never know how group identity was altered when there was another "sentient humanoid" in the woods nearby.  Perhaps my interpretation is wrong, and we'd still have the same emphasis on race and nation even if we did co-exist with sentient monsters.  Somehow I doubt, for instance, that the human race would suddenly come together in friendship in the wake of an alien invasion, but maybe that's just because we have thousands and thousands of years of intra-species strife under the belt already.

...

Anyway, to actually answer your question, most communities in my current setting are extremely homogeneous, with maybe a small handful of exiles and wanderers from other races, who are never quite accepted as full members.  Races have their own habitats that are not often shared.  There are exceptions - the primary focus of my work right now is a maritime confederacy that, while dominated by one race, has a sizeable minority of "aliens" who were driven there generations ago.  The result is a society that does afford aliens rights, but excludes them from most aspects of governance (though the Confederation eagerly inducts them into its military).  Violence against the aliens is not common, but does happen - the dominant race (the fungal people I mentioned, the Umbril) have highly alcoholic blood, which leads them to fear that the aliens (who drink alcohol) secretly drink Umbril blood in dark rituals, which in turn has led to riots or anti-alien pogroms after a high-profile death or disappearance that can't be explained.

To a large extent, the Confederation has been successful because it has so many outside enemies - without them, it might more easily turn on itself.  The Umbril political elite realizes that repressive measures might well start a civil war and critically weaken the state, allowing their enemies to crush them.  While aliens are burdened with a certain "dhimmi-like" status, this fear of civil war and the very decentralized nature of the state have ensured that, at least for now, members of other races can survive and even thrive within the Confederation's limits, and enjoy an existence that would be impossible in most communities throughout the region and the world.

My advice for you would just be to follow what seems logical.  You've entered into the realm of the purely hypothetical (like the rest of us) and anything you do will be suitable as long as you can justify it in some plausible way.

[Snargash Moonclaw]

Panisadorean races have varying interrelationships. Humans and gnomes are the most socially integrated, intermingling in nearly all social classes and professions. Gnomes do tend to predominate in certain areas - primarily mercantile while humans tend to be most numerous in scholastic fields (particularly theoretical or "pure" research). Dwarves are often found below human/gnomoi urban settlements - dwelling semi-segregated by preference of habitat but cooperative and integrated in common endeavors, essentially "twin cities" governed separately but sharing resources with citizens of one participating in many activities/functions of the other. Elves are pretty separatist in most regions while halflings and Khurorkh tend to remain rather mobile and relationships show more regional variance. Khurorkh tend to establish temporary settlements (for a few generations, roughly a century) on the edges of other races' territories, usually interposing themselves between such and Pahrorkh settlements, and so will usually have favorable relationships with their neighbors. Their enclaves are also frequently found in humagnomio cities as racial ghettos (in the original sense of the word).

Regional attitudes vary from these norms - Malenorian extreme prejudice toward Khurorkh in particular and attitude of racial supremacy in general being the most obvious example. Human prejudice also appears in other regions to varying degrees toward the Burrowing Races as a whole as well as specific ones. Gnomes at times are  stereotyped much as Jews where they clearly dominate much of the business and finance, halflings facing distrust and persecution very like the gypsies in Europe and dwarves simply culturally misunderstood, disdained as pacifists and perverts (for those who can remember "dirty hippy pinko-commie queers") at least in part because of their residential segregation and autonomy. Terms such as "halfer," "footer," "stump" and "rain barrel" can be heard in at least a few human mouths in any city. Reversed prejudice is most common among halflings (who encounter the most bigotry globally speaking) toward the "Tall Folk" (mainly human), although gnomes often view humans in general as rather thriftless dreamers who can't seem to stick to anything. Dwarves consider them rather childish and prone to violence, characterizing humans as behaving like bullies when there's no one to put them in check - the Malenorian Empire again being the most obvious example. Elves and Khurorkh also tend to perceive humans as rather immature (esp. elves), at least in part for historical reasons.

Elven/Khurorkh relations are the most universally formalized due to the ancient Kith War. The two races never fully rebuilt their original close friendship, but are determined not to repeat their mistakes. Consequently they make a point of sharing counsel between secular social/political entities and their various spiritual/religious orders, churches and other institutions are explicitly open to all and integrated (making them the de facto primary channel of communication between the two). While some display certain cultural preferences and racial perspectives (reflected in imbalances among their numbers) cross-training is a norm which many teachers (virtually all monastic prefects,) of both races view as vital to their students' spiritual development. As such, masters of either race can often be found teaching in the churches, orders and training halls of the other.

The elves as a whole tend to view themselves as culturally superior to the other races. They're acutely aware of the difference in perspective which their longevity produces and perceive correctly that other races are unable to grasp "the long view" so inherently obvious to them. On the other hand, they're just as acutely aware of how this causes them to be viewed by others and the problems it creates. As a result they tend to keep their distance, maintaining a "hands off" policy in the affairs of other races, while trying to ensure that those who choose to *can* seek their guidance. Vagueness and the non-committal are hallmarks of elven diplomacy, coupled with oblique, almost riddling suggestions of various (even contradictory) points of view intended to lead others to reach similar conclusions on their own. Some recognize the reasons and intention behind this while others find it confusing, condescending and ultimately infuriating. The fact that elves tend to simply shrug, replying "So it is," to this only tends to compound the problem, a fact which the elves likewise recognize and react to in the same fashion, seeing little else they can do under the circumstances. The elven propensity to respond to any perceived slight regarding their honor and intentions with a dueling challenge however causes others to at least pause and consider their interactions and motives very carefully.

Most conflict arises from nationalism rather than explicitly racial tensions and as a result can at times cut across racial lines entirely when arising between more integrated societies. Other races however tend to display a reluctance toward making war upon members of their own race which humans don't seem to share. (As a people, dwarves adamantly refuse to do so, although individual exceptions may occur, particularly among outcasts.) Khurorkh (esp. mercenary) units are the most willing among non-humans to take opposing sides in a conflict but in doing so also demand a high (formal) standard of honor and respect in the terms of engagement. If these are not met, or are subsequently abandoned, Khurorkh units of both sides will cease all participation and withdraw.

[Steerpike]

In the current setting I'm writing, racial politics depend highly on location.  In some cities, race determines almost everything - your class, your economic status, your profession, etc.  If you're born unlucky, you're stuck as a slave.  These societies are usually very concerned with gender constructions, too, so your gender also determines what your life will be like.

In some of the other cities, everyone is so worried about just surviving and prospering that racial prejudices take a backseat.  If your human neighbors are well-known cutthroats who will kill you and take your purse as soon as look at you but your ghul neighbors keep to themselves then you don't particularly care that they're undead, they're still better neighbors.

That said, dead/living is a major line of "racial" distinction or prejudice in my setting, and there are some races (eidolons, cestoids) who are universally despised, and others (leechkin) that are widely distrusted.

In general I think that the greater the variety of different creatures in an area, the less racist it would be, even in a fantasy setting.  If you grow up watching a mishmash of some 10-20 bizarrely different, culturally diverse populations of creatures interact together, you're by and large less likely to judge someone based only on their race.  That's not to say there wouldn't be lots of racial conflicts, but they're less likely to occur than if you're fantasy realm consists of say 10-20 isolationist nation-states, each with their own race, with little intermingling.

[Nomadic]

In general I think that the greater the variety of different creatures in an area, the less racist it would be, even in a fantasy setting.  If you grow up watching a mishmash of some 10-20 bizarrely different, culturally diverse populations of creatures interact together, you're by and large less likely to judge someone based only on their race.  That's not to say there wouldn't be lots of racial conflicts, but they're less likely to occur than if you're fantasy realm consists of say 10-20 isolationist nation-states, each with their own race, with little intermingling.

I can't agree with this strongly enough. Having grown up in a very culturally diverse part of the nation my family was constantly surrounded by people from very different backgrounds. So my sister and I grew up never knowing that race meant anything at all. My first taste of racism being a problem was ironically after I moved away from that all and came to the predominantly (at the time) white area of central oregon. I still remember getting accused of racism for saying "I wonder what that black kid over there is up to..." I had to actually ask my parents what a racist was cause I had never known. Ever since I can't help but laugh at how when cultures have fewer racial differences the racial tension vs the minority is higher. I still have no "racial modesty" since I was raised around it and calling someone black or white or anything else was nothing more than a description. Gets me in trouble sometimes... but I never did give a damn about political correctness :P

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=Wensleydale]What I really want to ask is, how do 'race' (species) and nation interact in your settings? Are many nations particularly mixed? Are different species treated differently? In human terms, different ethnic/religious groups under a ruler of a separate ethnic/religious group are often bound by different rules to the leading group (Dhimmi status in certain islamic states, for example, or the monetary value of swedes in Denmark in the middle ages). At the moment, I'm tending towards segregation. So what do YOU think? [/blockquote]

Sorry, life has been too hectic to give this worthy question an answer even close to what is really required.  
I made race and racism a central issue/conflict in Celtricia, as I feel that in our reality it has been a dominating and ugly spectre without anywhere near the variety and history found in most fantasy worlds.  I have a reluctant faith in the psyche to separate, degrade, enslave, and destroy anything that can be percieved as different.  So much of the history of celtricia is bounded by huge racial conflicts, also made even worse by the Celestial Planars refusal to work together, to continually create and change their minds, and basically screw up each other's plans constantly (though that is a DM only awareness--PC's and NPCs generally think of the Planar's grand plans as Godlike and beyond their Ken.  [note=Exception]Verkonen Vreeg, the oldest lving non-sauroid on Celtricia, is starting to understand/expect the fallibility of the Celestial Planars, but he's so demented that it makes him smug.  ANd he doesn't share with anyone anyway...[/note]
Many of the creations of the 'Gods' have been made, played with, and discarded, left to their own devices.  Especially since the Accords of Presence, at the end of the Age of Legends, since the Celestial Planars cannot interfere directly, their playthings have been free to mess things up with no real guidance.
However, there is a large 'integration-vs.-Racism' theme that I purposely added to the setting a decade after it was created, to add depth into the racial characteristics and a more dynamic feel.  


[ic=From the Celtricia Frontpage]
It could be said that the 'factionalism,' and incredible diversity of the politcal, religious, martial, economic, and political entities is what makes Celtricia so vibrant. One should not, however, get the impression that Celtricia is affected by urban sprawl.  Days and weeks of travel can be done without passing a hint of civilization in every country.  The tribal humanoids and wild creatures generally have no shortage of empty, wide-open areas... places where strong creatures have no law but their own.

 

There are racial issues alive in Celtricia as well. Small Hobyts and the strong Orcash are the most numerous races in Celtricia, followed by the three original clans of the Humans, the ancient Omwo~ (Elven), the Klaxik (Dwarven), the Gnomic, and the Gartier. These races comprise the primary inhabitants of Celtricia that are within the civilized world.  Understand, however, that it is considered an effect of culture to be able to integrate and work with other races, especially in the North-West Cradle areas where Orcash live side-by-side with Omwo~.  Barabarians are tribal, integrated cultures are civilized. So in hyper-integrated cultures, race is considered much less of a divider than Guild or Country, however you will find many areas that hold to their own.

 

But this very disintegration of racial identity is another dynamic that needs attention.  The Omwo~, the firstborn servants of the Planars, are a race in remmision.  Many ancient writings point to the advent of humans as a replacement for the Omwo~.  The Stunatu, the Klaxiks, Gnomics, and Hobyts, were created to be workers, servants of others, back in the Age of Legends.  In the last five centuries, the humans, who were created to replace the Omwo~ as the stewards of the 'Waking Dream' in most older religious texts, have watched the Hobyts outpace and supplant them with a cheeful, hard-working smile.  And overshadowing that, the even more recent inclusion of many of the the Ogrillite races, the servants and tools created to defend the Cairnhold in the Age of Legends, and the bloody-handed soldiers of Arbor and the Dreadwing throughout the Age of Heroes and the early Age of Statehood, into the sunlit streets, shops, and even governments of today's Celtricia.[/ic]

[ic=And here from the Race page...]
Primary Integrated races of Celtricia.
In the current philosophical mindset of the Celtrician setting, the ability to integrate into a multi-racial culture is seen as one of the tenets of a cultured person.  Over millenia, positive relationships between the various races had become quite normal.  However, there had been a good amount of racism and discrimination practised, even among allies until very recently.  Where the enemies of the various city-states and countries were of a different race, it was often outright ugly.


But a little less than 2 centuries ago, driven in particular by the bold, equalizing, racial independence that the recently empowered and multi-national guilds had brought to the scene, race ceased being 'the' major discrimination point in the Celtrician Cradle area.  The roots of this change can be found in the Bright Lands, where plutocrats in Hobyt Inn started trading heavily with their former enemy, the Blacknote Orcash Tribe a few days north of that city.  By that time within the city of Hobyt Inn, Hobyts, Humans, and Omwo~ had been living with anti-discrimination laws for centuries, although the Orcash were not included.  Though there was great debate, a philospohical movement began in the North-West that was predicated on the idea that one of the primary determinants of a civilized society is the ability to become integrated in a multi-racial society.

Thus, the Bright Lands were the first to open up citizenship to the Orcash and Gartier and also to include Ograk, Goblin and Gnolls as well (this is incredibly rare because of the distribution of the races). However, in a world where Hobyts and Orcash are the most populous races, almost 10% of the Orcash of the world, and almost 25% of the Orcash in the Northern Celtrician 'cradle' area, are 'civilized' and integrated.

In the time since then, most of the Northern (cradle) countries have accepted and adopted this aculturation. The idea has also spread to the Lands of Om in the Far South and most of the west. However, the Ambrellian and Argussian Empires are combating the idea. Some rulers and leaders embrace this change and proselytize it, although many fear it, but nonetheless this tide of change has washed over the lands.

So though race has a lot to do with cultural identity, it is considered gauche to put race above God, Guild, or Country.[/ic]

Nomadic mentioned his experiences with Racism, and I'm sure many of us have had similar histories.  Perhaps it is my own particular bent, but since Celtricia is world supposedly becoming enlightened, I have tried to equate integration with the progress of enlightenment, and to do so, I have placed the current days of the PC's at a juncture point where racial identity is still huge, and racism still rmpant, but in conlfict with the philosophical progress of the times.  I have had three PC Gartiers (Bugbears), and it has been a major underlying theme for all three.