Helping your players forget that it's 'just a game'

[Ra-Tiel]

Let's please get back on topic. We can argue semantics all day about this but it is getting more and more off topic. The OP was a quickly thought up example and tearing it apart for loopholes is a bit silly. :P

I don't think it's entirely semantics of a quick example.

The temptation to take away some (or all) of the PCs rules-given power to pull off a certain situation is very real for the DM. In your example it was denying the PCs any Perception checks to prevent the murderer of the girl, in another example it may be delaying initiative checks by one round to make sure the PCs can't prevent the killing of innocents/trap activation/etc, while in yet another example it may be denying the PCs any Insight checks to find out the noble's lying to them.

While doing such a thing may be an easy and quick way to set up a certain situation, it's a dangerous pitfall that often comes back to bite you later.

[Nomadic]

Let's please get back on topic. We can argue semantics all day about this but it is getting more and more off topic. The OP was a quickly thought up example and tearing it apart for loopholes is a bit silly. :P

I don't think it's entirely semantics of a quick example.

The temptation to take away some (or all) of the PCs rules-given power to pull off a certain situation is very real for the DM. In your example it was denying the PCs any Perception checks to prevent the murderer of the girl, in another example it may be delaying initiative checks by one round to make sure the PCs can't prevent the killing of innocents/trap activation/etc, while in yet another example it may be denying the PCs any Insight checks to find out the noble's lying to them.

While doing such a thing may be an easy and quick way to set up a certain situation, it's a dangerous pitfall that often comes back to bite you later.

Stop that you. The OP was an exploration of the effects of anger in regards to immersion not the focus of the thread itself. The focus of the thread is "How do you immerse players in your setting through the evocation of real feelings/what are your thoughts on doing so?"

[Kindling]

Just want to say, I agree so much with LC about mystery. I think it's my favourite, and possibly the best, way of creating immersion and player involvement. Speaking also from my (infrequent) experiences as a player rather than a GM, I can honestly say I LOVE not knowing what the fuck is going on (although obviously, it does help to eventually find out)

[LordVreeg]

Just want to say, I agree so much with LC about mystery. I think it's my favourite, and possibly the best, way of creating immersion and player involvement. Speaking also from my (infrequent) experiences as a player rather than a GM, I can honestly say I LOVE not knowing what the fuck is going on (although obviously, it does help to eventually find out)

Tying this together, I will put it on the table that perhaps curiousity and the dicovery urge are strong player emotions as well.

One thing about mystery and curiousity, you need patience and versimilitude.
Any mystery where answers are force-fed loses the players, and also the story must really hang together.
And they have to figure it out for themselves.

For instance, my Igbarians (finally, after 2 yrs of waiting) bothered to search some old documents and ask some oldsters about what tombs wer actually in the Sunken boneyard they have been battling undead in for over 2 FRIGGIN YEARS of real time.  They found out that the deepest tomb, the one that abutts an older wall of the city, is actually the tomb of the Steel Libram, a place where people were dissapearing from before the Undead Curse, and where they had actually fought a greater wraith in the attic.
You could see the lightbulbs on top of their heads go on, the moment of, "AH-HA" was that strong.  

Now, I could have gotten frustrated any time in the last year or so and slipped them the info.  But that would have cheated the players and the campaign of that whole , "AH-HA" moment.  The players were on an intellectual, totally immersed high for the rest of the session.

But to make this happen, all the facts have to hang together, and the GM has to have patience.

or, as Kindling says,
[blockquote=Kindling]I can honestly say I LOVE not knowing what the fuck is going on (although obviously, it does help to eventually find out)[/blockquote]

[Nomadic]

Yes that AHA! moment as you put it is a wonderful way to get your players excited (and patting themselves on the back for finally figuring it out... heck if you give them a chance to use that new knowledge to achieve something they couldn't before they'll probably start dancing :P ).

[Drizztrocks]

Betrayal and choices are my favirote tools for immersion. By choices I mean difficult choices. Does the one child your swore to protect really mean more then the thousand other people living in the town. I love it when the PCs disagree, and then they fight in game. I don't mean becoming mortal enemies, but something like the below.

   I was running a campaign where drow were secretly invading the town and dragging away strong young men to use as slaves, and children to raise as strong slaves. There was a swashbuckling rogue who was fighting the drow wholeheartedly because he was a slave once and thought freedom the most important value. There was the knight who followed the law above all else, and swore to stop this injustice and evil if it was the death of him. Then there was the orc barbarian and the wizard.

  The group had taken a drow male prisoner and told him they would let him free if he told where the drow were coming from. The drow happily agreed to this, and told them that there was a well in the cellar of the tavern that his group had found an opening through and was continuing to come through. Even after keeping his share of the deal, the drow was not released because the knight refused to let him go. He brought the helpless dark elf to the court to be executioned. This angered the guy playing the rogue in real life, and in the game his character reacted the same way.

  Earlier on in this game, the rogue, barbarian and wizard had sworn to protect one family's child from the drow. This child was kidnapped by them, and the PCs were in the process of pursuing the drow into the Underdark to save the child, despite threats of an oncoming invasion against the city. However, the knight insisted that they stay and the thousand people living there were more important then any one individual. Angered, the rogue yelled at him in game, saying that his idea of 'justice' was inhumane and emotionless. The PCs ended up in a short duel of blades and insults. It was awesome. The players were so into it, and the story and conflict created by the PCs along that I had not even planned on was beautiful.


   Also, my remark about betrayal in the first bit. Have an NPC befriend the PCs then betray them in the most coldhearted way possible. They will want to rip his heart out.

[Nomadic]

Have an NPC befriend the PCs then betray them in the most coldhearted way possible. They will want to rip his heart out.

I recall a game I read about one time where the PCs traveling companion and good friend was actually the BBEG the whole time. It was a deliciously evil thing for the DM to pull.

[LordVreeg]

Have an NPC befriend the PCs then betray them in the most coldhearted way possible. They will want to rip his heart out.

I recall a game I read about one time where the PCs traveling companion and good friend was actually the BBEG the whole time. It was a deliciously evil thing for the DM to pull.

I actually did that once or twice. [note] Pious is run by Grak's Player.  [/note]

Pious Pilfer was captured by Morator, Yellow Robe Rank in the Collegium Arcana, along with his dog.  (I've mentined the Dog before...)  He imprisoned them in the bowels of the lair of the Gianclan Silverworth.  Then he went out to Stenron, and tried to join Chunk's resuce attempt.  I never expected him to get away with it, I was just playing Morator as being the sneaky bastard he is.  
I never expected him to get all the way inside and then be able to backstab three PCs.