Effects of Magic and Their Presence in Haveneast (Read: Help Needed)

[Biohazard]

So I'm working out the kinks on the magic of Haveneast, and I'm at a roadblock at finally deciding what I do and don't want to include. Vreeg suggested that I post here about it, which will hopefully do wonders for me (thanks Vreeg). I'll start with what kind of general schools/divisions/shapes of magic you can tend to see:

-Creation magic is not a normal thing, at least not without the proper methods. Creating something from nothing (whether it's actually summoning something or creating a substance/elemental effect) doesn't work. You won't see a sorcerer turn the corner and start lobbing fireballs or guiding face-melting acid towards a target, unless they have a sample of the substance/element to draw from. A wizard can (here's the overused example) soak a rag in a flammable liquid, wrap it around the top of his staff, light it, and then draw flame from the lit staff (or a torch, or anything else like that), and proceed to make the fire do pretty much everything he wants it to (within his own magical limits). He can make the spheres of fire larger, smaller, burn hotter or cooler, etc. but he can't make it from nothing. The only time that this limitation can be avoided is following the swearing of certain dark pacts, which allow you do make things from nothing, but they'll sap your soul/health dry.

-Anything that involves prediction, prophecy, viewing other places/people, or casting protections from anything the caster wishes is a ritual, and also must have a focus. Even though some of said rituals (the weaker ones) can be cast almost instantaneously like any normal magical spell, they almost never actually draw from the user, but instead require the right conditions, foci, words, and actions to invoke.

-The above goes for summoning too. It was stated earlier that it's not possible to do it from nothing, and this remains true - you have to know exactly what you're summoning, roughly from where, and you also have to know its name - and that sort of information isn't exactly easy to come by.

-The kind of stuff that is commonplace is that which affects life force and chemical makeup, local perception, physical traits, mental state, and animates objects. In most fantasy terms, this is what you'll find in the areas of enchantments, illusions, necromancy, and alteration - necromancy and the "dark side" of witchcraft especially. The ability to control the weather and nature, including animals and people, as well as animate the dead, curse others, shapeshift/change size/appearance, turn invisible, contact/summon/conrtol spirits, sap the light from an area or provide luminance, or anything else along those lines is a big part of the magic of Haveneast.

What I am asking help with is a comprehensive list of magical effects and applications so I can figure out what can and can't happen. I'll add them to a list here as you guys post them and respond/edit as I figure out what to do with them. Thanks for the help!

The list so far: (Thanks Llum and LordVreeg)

Yes
Invisibility
Animating the dead
Wards/protections (limited, rituals)
Flight
Detections
Reading/affecting minds
Affecting emotions
Substance potency
Fear/nightmares
Water breathing
Earth shifting (hard)
Shapeshifting
Portals (limited)
Most divinations involving projection of the self (rituals)
Enhancement/Weakening/Cursing/Boons
Luck/fate (hard)
Cryogenics/stasis (hard)
Golems/Frankenstein monsters
Illusions
Control of weather
Healing/Curing disease (weak)
Anti-aging (slows only)

No
Time travel (miracles only)
Teleporting
Creating objects from nothing
Elemental effects from nothing
Resurrection/advanced healing/advanced disease cures

Maybe
Creating magic food (contradicts the "something from nothing" rules)
Luck/fate (hard; might not be a magic of its own)
Cloning (hard)
Mind transfer (hard)

[Superfluous Crow]

Are you asking for more things that should/could be added to the list?
Where does telekinesis go? Any idea how magic like that would work? Controlling of air? Gravity manipulation? Invisible ectoplasmic tentacles? Similar effects can be achieved with very different means. Air control seems to fit the best in your case.
What about flight?

[Tillumni]

Noise manipulation (shout, sending)

Moleculare manipulation of substance to either cause chemical reaction or change thier make up.
example A, split water into the base component of oxygen and hydrogen and direct it together with a firesource toward the target to make things go FWOOM!
Example B: change an iron bar, a piece of coal, some leather and some wood, into a steel sword, with a leather wrapped wooden handle. (bonus point if you can guess where I got these ideas from)

[LordVreeg]

-[blockquote=Trollish One]Creation magic is not a normal thing, at least not without the proper methods. Creating something from nothing (whether it's actually summoning something or creating a substance/elemental effect) doesn't work. You won't see a sorcerer turn the corner and start lobbing fireballs or guiding face-melting acid towards a target, unless they have a sample of the substance/element to draw from. A wizard can (here's the overused example) soak a rag in a flammable liquid, wrap it around the top of his staff, light it, and then draw flame from the lit staff (or a torch, or anything else like that), and proceed to make the fire do pretty much everything he wants it to (within his own magical limits). He can make the spheres of fire larger, smaller, burn hotter or cooler, etc. but he can't make it from nothing. The only time that this limitation can be avoided is following the swearing of certain dark pacts, which allow you do make things from nothing, but they'll sap your soul/health dry.[/blockquote]

Can a caster bring something over from the nightmare, which would seem like coming from nothing, but is more of a specialized gate?

[blockquote=Trollish Ape]-Anything that involves prediction, prophecy, viewing other places/people, or casting protections from anything the caster wishes is a ritual, and also must have a focus. Even though some of said rituals (the weaker ones) can be cast almost instantaneously like any normal magical spell, they almost never actually draw from the user, but instead require the right conditions, foci, words, and actions to invoke[/blockquote]

Ok, we're going to have to do some work with ritual. by this para, I now have to infer thst normal casting draws from the user as the energy source.  Ritual as fast as regular casting?  I'd think very carefully about that, since ritual here (as in many settings) is being set up as an alternative format.  Since the cost is less, you probably want time to be one of the considerations.

[Superfluous Crow]

@Tillumni: My guess would be Fullmetal Alchemist ^^
At least it sounded like something that could have come from that.
@Vreeg: A ritual could, in essence, be throwing a set of bone dice into the air while saying "Augurisis!" and then they would say yes or no to some dilemma. aside from the pig latin, i reckon that was what he was going for with the weak prediction rituals.

[Biohazard]

[blockquote=Cataclysmic Crow]Are you asking for more things that should/could be added to the list?
Where does telekinesis go? Any idea how magic like that would work? Controlling of air? Gravity manipulation? Invisible ectoplasmic tentacles? Similar effects can be achieved with very different means. Air control seems to fit the best in your case.
What about flight?[/blockquote]

Yeah, that's more or less what I need. Telekinesis is a yes, gravity manipulation is a yes but is a harder magic, the tentacles thing is probably a no, and air control would fall under control of weather probably, so that's a yes. Flight's there, too. I'll add those to the list, thanks :D

[blockquote=Tillumni]Noise manipulation (shout, sending)

Moleculare manipulation of substance to either cause chemical reaction or change thier make up.
example A, split water into the base component of oxygen and hydrogen and direct it together with a firesource toward the target to make things go FWOOM!
Example B: change an iron bar, a piece of coal, some leather and some wood, into a steel sword, with a leather wrapped wooden handle. (bonus point if you can guess where I got these ideas from)[/blockquote]

All definitely a yes, although those last two examples probably go under harder magic effects... I might have to make a separate list for the most difficult ones.

 [blockquote=Vreeg]Can a caster bring something over from the nightmare, which would seem like coming from nothing, but is more of a specialized gate?
[/blockquote]

Yeah, that would fall under summoning, it's just that with an object they pretty much have to know exactly where it is, and if it's a creature they have to know roughly where it is and know its name.

 [blockquote=Vreeg]Ok, we're going to have to do some work with ritual. by this para, I now have to infer thst normal casting draws from the user as the energy source. Ritual as fast as regular casting? I'd think very carefully about that, since ritual here (as in many settings) is being set up as an alternative format. Since the cost is less, you probably want time to be one of the considerations.[/blockquote]

This is true, though. Normal casting does draw from the user, but generally it's not permanent damage (only certain very powerful functions of magic, and the aforementioned pacts that allow things that otherwise wouldn't be possible with sorcery, which draw both from the body and soul, deal permanent damage). Ritual  can be as fast as regular casting, but it's not going to be worth it except for a few different uses. Ritual magic's strength is directly proportional to the time used to cast it, so a ritual that is cast in a very short period of time (if it's possible with the specific use) is going to be a weak one. Even so, they still have to meet the right conditions for it to be cast at all.

[LordVreeg]

How does time and distance differ in the Nightmare?  is there major distortion?  
is there magic castable only in the Nightmare?

[Tillumni]

@Cataclysmic Crow: ding, ding, and we got a winner! *assigns one point to Crow, along with cookies*

@Biohazard: you might want to think over how fundamental magic can affect objects. flameable objects could in theory be set to combust simple by vibrating a sufficientmy amounth of the molecules fast enough and metals can be melted though the same principle.  and if taken to the furthest extreme, then the manipulation of matter on an atom level can lead to all kind of nuclear explosions

a possible way to limit it, apart from making it insanely difficult as something like this should be, is also requerering that the spellcaster actually knows what an atom is. any mage who have reached this level off controll using magic should probaly be the stuff of legend, and perhaps even a defining part of the time he or she lives in.

[Biohazard]

[blockquote=LordVreeg]How does time and distance differ in the Nightmare? is there major distortion?
is there magic castable only in the Nightmare?[/blockquote]

Time and distance are chaotic, and very mutable. It's definitely a very dream-style thing, where for example if you wanted to get to the other side of two pillars, and the distance around was the "same", it could possibly take you much longer or much shorter to walk straight between them rather than around one. It's something that can show up in different areas at different times or when different conditions are met, and also occurs more frequently when the dream storms make their way to an area. One thing about time in The Nightmare though is, except for very rare places, it never goes faster than in Haveneast - it'll always go slower or not move at all.

As for the Nightmare-specific magic, yes and no. Technically there is, but really The Nightmare just amplifies or weakens (usually amplifies). There's something about The Nightmare where it's tied on a basic level to all magic that makes magic stronger while being used within it, but also puts the wielder in more danger because there are ways for various creatures to know where powerful conduits are. It also tends to tap into the thoughts of visitors (but not permanent residents) and create effects erratically that can be beneficial or detrimental.

In addition, the connection of The Nightmare to miracles in Haveneast (which are really the only "divine" magic) is uncertain, as while they're normally attributed to divine being such as Justahn in Justaism and Akkelor in the more easterly Vlanderism faith, some sorcerous scholars are wondering if maybe it's actually something from The Nightmare, and maybe the divine beings just know where to find it.

I think I went overboard on that reply.

[blockquote=Tillumni]@Biohazard: you might want to think over how fundamental magic can affect objects. flameable objects could in theory be set to combust simple by vibrating a sufficientmy amounth of the molecules fast enough and metals can be melted though the same principle. and if taken to the furthest extreme, then the manipulation of matter on an atom level can lead to all kind of nuclear explosions

a possible way to limit it, apart from making it insanely difficult as something like this should be, is also requerering that the spellcaster actually knows what an atom is. any mage who have reached this level off controll using magic should probaly be the stuff of legend, and perhaps even a defining part of the time he or she lives in.[/blockquote]

Definitely want to make that possible, although incredibly hard even on a simpler level. The knowledge, while not being a requirement, is definitely a big factor in making it easier to do; I wouldn't want to leave out the possibility of a magical discovery of sorts, but it's definitely not something likely to happen without a knowledge of particles.

[Superfluous Crow]

What about "metamagics": making spells go off after a set amount of time?
Can you create a vacuum or a hole of nothingness?
And what are the limits of shapechanging? Can you change into doves and such, or only into things roughly your size?
@Tillumni. It was the exploding gas that gave it away. thanks for the cookie :D

[Llum]

What about osmosis? genetic engineering? magical crafting (ala magic blacksmith or magic carpenter or magic chef)? Freezing Time (ala Time Stop)?

What is easier magic wise? Causing someone to have a anurism or blowing them up with a fireball?

[Biohazard]

[blockquote=Cataclysmic Crow]What about "metamagics": making spells go off after a set amount of time?
Can you create a vacuum or a hole of nothingness?
And what are the limits of shapechanging? Can you change into doves and such, or only into things roughly your size?
@Tillumni. It was the exploding gas that gave it away. thanks for the cookie [/blockquote]

Metamagics are a yes. The equivalent of D&D metamagic functions pretty much on the same level as any pact magic that would sap your strength/soul; a caster will have a pool of magic energy that grows based on a few factors that they can use to modify spells' parameters (this is a normal thing that begins from the very basic building blocks of a spell; while a spell will have a "standard" effect and strength, this will either A) be weak enough that a caster will want to augment fairly regularly, or B) will start at a "mid" range and be able to be weakened or strengthened, the weakened version producing a less powerful rendition while costing less).

Vacuums, yes, although difficult.

Shapechanging has limits, although not in the same way D&D does. Unlike other systems where the size/shape limits expand as you level, shapechangers tend to start at being able to change only into the smallest of creatures and working their way up. So a new character with a bit of shapeshifting ability can probably turn into most forms of insect and maybe small mammals, fish, and birds, but something such as a full-grown eagle, a rhino, or a killer whale is going to take a lot more time and strength.

[blockquote=Llum]What about osmosis? genetic engineering? magical crafting (ala magic blacksmith or magic carpenter or magic chef)? Freezing Time (ala Time Stop)?

What is easier magic wise? Causing someone to have a anurism or blowing them up with a fireball?[/blockquote]

Osmosis/genetic engineering are a difficult, not well-known yes. Magical crafting is possible, yes, but the kind of crafting in Haveneast definitely doesn't resemble that of standard D&D settings. As has been mentioned before it'd mostly be utility applications. A blacksmith might be more likely to just make a fabled suit of leather that was harder than plate armor, or a war hammer that could not crack, break, or rust, if it's a combat application at all.

The aneurysm is easier. Although the victim would have health defenses applied to this up the rear, it's more possible to reach out through magic and do all sorts of nasty things to their insides than it is to conjure a fireball and lob it at them.

[Superfluous Crow]

What about magical grafting of limbs?
And i can see that your shapechanging doesn't observe conservation of mass then? or do you just turn into an immensely heavy fly? ^^
And what about the aforementioned holes of nothingness/controlled black holes?