Theme Wars!

[beejazz]

Lol... but seriously, that's more subject than theme. In a parallel to my landscape analogy, my campaign has the orc homeland (once a proud civilization) overrun by fiends after the collapse of the hells. The orcs scatter across the globe in history's most massive epic teleportation error EVER. The orcs are shunned by societies unwilling to give up their own land to accomidate the refugees. Orcs across the globe become "nomads" "raiders" and "dangerous squatters"... This is the subject.

The theme can be later interpreted as "racism" "the search for home" or "analagous to the Jews in Exodus." All are right... but none need be intentional.

[Epic Meepo]

[off topic]@beejazz: Incidentaly, every time I read one of your posts, I inevitably get to the end and start reading the sig about chocolate bunnies as though it were the next point being made in your argument before catching myself.

[Raelifin]

When I talk about a theme, I talk about an idea or element that ties several things together. If you have the idea of "nomads," then everything you create that adds to that idea follows that theme. Most of the time this is clearly subconcious and in most art, that is fine. But if you make something as deep and complex as a world, sometimes it helps to try and conceptualize these themes so that you don't become scattered or diverted.

[CYMRO]

But if you make something as deep and complex as a world, sometimes it helps to try and conceptualize these themes so that you don't become scattered or diverted.

But shouldn't a campaign world be scattered and diverse?

[Raelifin]

Only a world built for entertainment. Like a divset. Art needs focus. We've been over this before. >_>

[CYMRO]

Only a world built for entertainment. Like a divset. Art needs focus. We've been over this before. >_>

That is because it is a circular argument. ;)

[Raelifin]

No. You're just bringing it up again. :P

[beejazz]

Again, let's get back to making the distinction between subject and theme. Subject is the concrete (objective, therefore necessarily decided by the artist) where as theme is abstract (subjective, decided by the viewer). One of the critereon for classic lit is, after all, its universiality!
@Meepo: That's exactly what I want you to think! Muahahaha!

[Raelifin]

By your definition, subject is what has already been created. But can you create something without an idea of that thing? That's all a theme is, really; it is an idea that is present in two or more elements. You talk about themes as being things like "analogous to the Jews in Exodus." but that's a comparison, not a theme (unless you are making art about "analogous to the Jews in Exodus.")

Anything you think of, is an idea. An apple is an idea, a nation is an idea and the concept of "youth" is an idea. When you create art of an apple, you aren't making an apple, you are communicating the idea of one. It is this subjective perspective that makes art so appealing. When you make a world that has "nomads," you are communicating your idea of nomads. If you also apply the idea of "nomads" to another element in your world, they share the theme of "nomads" because a theme is an idea that is present in two or more elements. Now without any outside presence, your creation has themes. Everything has themes, they are present in the entire world. By your definition "subject," the objective material, is nothing more than oils on a canvas, clay in a pile or words in a book.

[Epic Meepo]

@Raelifin: I'd be careful about using a defintion of "theme" that is that liberal. I'm hard pressed to think of a man-made creation that would not have a theme according to your definition.

[Raelifin]

Yes. Though I find that definition to be true. I think it is important to focus on "core themes" when discussing worlds. That is, themes/ideas that are part of a meta idea or vision. See prior posts for details.

[beejazz]

Okay, on the assumption that "nomads" are, in and of themselves, a theme: What if not all the players are interested in "nomads"? If "nomads" are in fact a theme, then the unification of that theme runs counter to the goal of a *campaign* setting... in that a campaign cannot be run which is enjoyable for all players. Let's say we add "vengeful nemesis" "a pathetic villain" "corrupt clergy". The omnipresence of any one "theme" by your definition stifles the creative process rather than guiding it. Getting back to painting, you never just paint an apple... not unless you have an apple-shaped canvas, anyway!

[CYMRO]

Exeunt Omnes.


Next:
A Midsummer Night's Theme

and

The Comedy of Divers

[Lmns Crn]

Exeunt Omnes.


Next:
A Midsummer Night's Theme

and

The Comedy of Divers

Eagerly awaiting act two!

[Raelifin]

Okay, on the assumption that "nomads" are, in and of themselves, a theme: What if not all the players are interested in "nomads"? If "nomads" are in fact a theme, then the unification of that theme runs counter to the goal of a *campaign* setting... in that a campaign cannot be run which is enjoyable for all players. Let's say we add "vengeful nemesis" "a pathetic villain" "corrupt clergy". The omnipresence of any one "theme" by your definition stifles the creative process rather than guiding it. Getting back to painting, you never just paint an apple... not unless you have an apple-shaped canvas, anyway!

Ah, but you are still thinking too narrowly. When I talk about the ethos of the setting, I talk about the vision that inspires the artist. It's hard for me to give good examples without going too small because the ethos of a world is an immense thing. Summarizing the essence of a setting is an exercise some of us do, but it's largely impossible. Only through the artwork itself can one express the goal. I'm going to ask that you picture your own world, Diis Manubus, right? That idea, right there, is the ethos of the world. If you picture a world that has "gun-slinging action," that isn't the ethos of your world, only a core theme; only a single facet of the jewel as a whole! You see, I'm not encouraging the stifling of creativity, merely the dedication to keeping toward the general theme of the original vision. If you change your vision in mid-creation then the work will become inconsistent and lose potential. You don't change what you're painting/drawing/whatever halfway through, right?

I think my favorite analogy for the whole thing is the book metaphor. Two writers sit down and begin to write a book (or book series). One writer writes a novel length story. This story has a consistent vision and the plot of the story is consistent. The other writer decides to write a digest of short stories because he thinks that it would be wrong to write a single story that a reader might dislike. Instead his writing is all over the place. A little romance here, some horror there, etc. In the end, I'll look at both books, if the novel has a theme I like, I'll read it. Otherwise I'll go look for a different novel because the digest doesn't have enough depth. Just because someone might read your book doesn't mean you need to write it for them. And yes, this means I still think that Divsets are inferior. :P

P.S. Diis Manubus is next on my "to read" list. It looks like a great ethocentric world based on the blurb. :P